[FM42] A brave new world - Historical divergence

[Wolf_pd]

Just now, XaW said:

Ah, I had forgotten. I'll have a reread and see if I can drum up something. I'm very bad at image editing though, so don't expect more than some simple ones!  

Some flags in the world have started of as children's drawing, so if the baseline is there and you can explain your thoughts behind it, that's all good.

I am not comparing your skills to a child drawing btw  But I have enough skill with some graphical tools to work out what people present.

[XaW]

Some early thoughts:

Nahua - While looking around I came across a reddit thread with a flag that I liked. (https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/k3wdsz/aztecnahua_flag_cross_of_burgundy/). Seeing as the cross of Burgundy is of Spanish influence and that essentially the country became free due to New Spaniards fighting Peninsulares and the Nahua picking up the pieces, I think it could fit. Or at least a version of it. The both Aztec and Nahua influence too gives it a bit more historical grounding too.

Yucatán - Seeing as the 1841 Independence movement actually happened and had a flag why not use it? I think the people who proclaimed Republic of Yucatán then would know better than me!  

Honduras - Not much to say about Honduras, as it seems to be mostly the same as real life, so why not use one of the ones they've used in real life too?

Colombia - Much the same as Honduras. Should probably use one of the real ones.

Tawantinsuyu - Seeing as the flag of Cusco is just about the same as the rainbow flag, why not use that, but perhaps with a twist of some kind. Since the country is very anti-Spaniard, why not just remove the red stripe to symbolise the Spanish being cast out or something? I can see someone being that petty!

Canada - I think keeping the maple leaf makes sense, but based on the war against the US, and slightly based on the Pearson Pennant, I think making the Canadian flag the same, but a dark blue (to symbolize independence from both the British, but also from the US) was implemented to show that the Canadian spirit of freedom from oppression, but also the freedom being in nature. Not sure if the blue is the right one, but something like this:

 

The negative for this is that the red was to symbolize the Anglican side of Canada, so that part might be lost and point more to a Francophone nation... Unsure about it, but thought I'd suggest something along it.

Québec - I think something with the Fleurdelisé is a given for Québec. Perhaps just something like this to give root the the Canadian part from before the split? Unless the part with there being 4 of it has some symbolism I don't know about.

Newfoundland - Since they had a regional flag that started out as a symbol of the Newfoundland Fishermen's Star of the Sea Association back in 1871, I think having it, or something like it would be suitable. Any other flag I looked at also included Labrador, so I don't have much other reference to work from here...

Just a few quick thoughts about some of the nations. I'll add more later on when I more time. Can't spend too much of my work time playing with flags!  

[Jorgen]

54 minutes ago, XaW said:

Ah, I had forgotten. I'll have a reread and see if I can drum up something. I'm very bad at image editing though, so don't expect more than some simple ones!  

I can edit a little bit, and I have a lot of imagination so it probably will be something like describing how the flag could look like

Edited July 26 by Jorgen

[Wolf_pd]

19 minutes ago, XaW said:

Canada - I think keeping the maple leaf makes sense, but based on the war against the US, and slightly based on the Pearson Pennant, I think making the Canadian flag the same, but a dark blue (to symbolize independence from both the British, but also from the US) was implemented to show that the Canadian spirit of freedom from oppression, but also the freedom being in nature. Not sure if the blue is the right one, but something like this:

 

The negative for this is that the red was to symbolize the Anglican side of Canada, so that part might be lost and point more to a Francophone nation... Unsure about it, but thought I'd suggest something along it.

Can't spend too much of my work time playing with flags!  

I see no issue spending work time on flags

Blue in the Pearson Pennant was also partially viewed as a way to appease the Quebecois. Quebec is no longer part of Canada, so the red should be good to go.  The war between the US and Canada was a war between the US and the British in Canada at the time, as Canada was not yet independent, but you are right, the new Canadian flag should have no connection to the British and while the red is English (red Ensign), it can also be taken on its own. Also. red is a much better colour for the RCMP on their mobile reindeer units, don't you think?

[Jorgen]

8 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

I see no issue spending work time on flags

Blue in the Pearson Pennant was also partially viewed as a way to appease the Quebecois. Quebec is no longer part of Canada, so the red should be good to go.  The war between the US and Canada was a war between the US and the British in Canada at the time, as Canada was not yet independent, but you are right, the new Canadian flag should have no connection to the British and while the red is English (red Ensign), it can also be taken on its own. Also. red is a much better colour for the RCMP on their mobile reindeer units, don't you think?

As nations with a shared history often have flags that show similarities, wouldn't it make sense to show that in the Canada and Quebec flags too? Or in the flags of the nations with Indigenous Peoples?

 

There are great similarities between most cultures in how we perceive and name colors. The first words that arise for this are light and dark (what we usually call black and white nowadays), followed by the word for the color red. Only later did the words for yellow and green emerge and even later still did a name appear for the color blue. For example, you will encounter the words dark, light and red in most cultures and the word for blue in a smaller number of cultures and languages. If you want to create a flag that carries thousands of years of history, then black, white and red make more sense. If it is a more recent flag, blue is also fine.

I would imagine that flags and colors carried through history by the First Nations / Indigenous Peoples of the Northern American nations of Greenland, Nunangat, Oceti and Iroquois are still (partially) visible in the crests and flags they use these days. If using symbols I would think of landmarkers, totems, (spirit) animals, leafs and unique geography like rivers or mountains.

Inspired by the blue Canadian flag and the flag of Québec, it seems fine to me if these two countries mainly use blue and white. For the previously mentioned Greenland, Nunangat, Oceti and Iroquois, white, black and red seem more appropriate to me. 

Hope this helps.

[Wolf_pd]

7 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

As nations with a shared history often have flags that show similarities, wouldn't it make sense to show that in the Canada and Quebec flags too? Or in the flags of the nations with Indigenous Peoples?

There are great similarities between most cultures in how we perceive and name colors. The first words that arise for this are light and dark (what we usually call black and white nowadays), followed by the word for the color red. Only later did the words for yellow and green emerge and even later still did a name appear for the color blue. For example, you will encounter the words dark, light and red in most cultures and the word for blue in a smaller number of cultures and languages. If you want to create a flag that carries thousands of years of history, then black, white and red make more sense. If it is a more recent flag, blue is also fine.

I would imagine that flags and colors carried through history by the First Nations / Indigenous Peoples of the Northern American nations of Greenland, Nunangat, Oceti and Iroquois are still (partially) visible in the crests and flags they use these days. If using symbols I would think of landmarkers, totems, (spirit) animals, leafs and unique geography like rivers or mountains.

Inspired by the blue Canadian flag and the flag of Québec, it seems fine to me if these two countries mainly use blue and white. For the previously mentioned Greenland, Nunangat, Oceti and Iroquois, white, black and red seem more appropriate to me. 

Hope this helps.

Interesting. I knew there were several languages that for a long time didn't have a word for blue. Japan is an example of that, although the colleague that maintains it is still the case is overdoing it.

[Jorgen]

7 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Interesting. I knew there were several languages that for a long time didn't have a word for blue. Japan is an example of that, although the colleague that maintains it is still the case is overdoing it.

Yes that's right. For a long time, Japan had no words to distinguish between blue and green. Both were called 'ao'. Nowadays there are words like 'midori' for green.

 

I find this video very interesting: 

Edit: I've tried different versions of a blue Canadian flag, but so far I'm liking the original red version far better.

Edited July 27 by Jorgen

[Jorgen]

Suggestions:

Quebec: Tried to create a new Quebec flag with adding the colors of the current Canadian flag. It feels nice to me. You could however just use the real Quebec flag.

Iroquois: use existing flag with the Wampum band and the white tree

Oceti Sakowin: use the existing flag with the 7 fires

USA: edit the current flag to show the right amount of stars and strips

Illinois: EU inspired flag with less stars and one in the middle to represent the union

Canada: keep current flag

[Wolf_pd]

Today I learned Oceti Sakowin has a flag before I even thought it up as a nation.

[Jorgen]

3 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Today I learned Oceti Sakowin has a flag before I even thought it up as a nation.

Everyday we learn something new my friend

 

Edit:

Flag suggestions:

Texas (Lone star), California (Monarch the Bear flag), Boliva, Boringuen (Puerto Rico), Yucatan, Cascadia (doug flag), Acadiana, Araucania & Patagonia, Colombia and Greenland: all have existing flags

For Florida you could merge the Cuba and Florida flags. Like putting the diagonal red cross of Florida on top of the flag of Cuba.

Nahua: Cuzco flag perhaps?

Edited July 27 by Jorgen

[Wolf_pd]

I was digging through one of my external HDs and I knew I had some flags somewhere on there. Unfortunately, you can lose things on those HDs

There are a few flags I might consider for the Historical Divergence though, so I will post some flags I did for the Americas (unless they are crap )

This was the flag I came up with for the Virgin Islands.

[Jorgen]

There are all kinds of flags with stars or other images that correspond to constellations or geographical features on Earth. Would it perhaps be a good idea to have a stylized representation of the shape/location of the Antilles on the flag for the Caribbean Federation? Such as smaller and larger stars or other appropriate shapes that correspond to the size and positiion of the islands?

 

 

Edit:

Florida+Cuba

 

 

Edit: This setup is rudimentary and not very pretty, but I hope it gives you an idea. Perhaps just as the Union Jack consists of a combination of the flags of England and Scotland.

 

Edited August 3 by Jorgen

[PaMi 7]

Il 14/07/2024 in 00:50 , Wolf_pd ha scritto:

On my PC.

Is this threads is a story/career? Not a download threads?

Sorry but I don't speak english very well

[Wolf_pd]

15 minutes ago, PaMi 7 said:

Is this threads is a story/career? Not a download threads?

Sorry but I don't speak english very well

This is a development log at this moment. So until I add downloadable files in the first post of the thread, there will be no download.

[albertluque]

Is there a map somewhere that breaks down the different countries?

[Wolf_pd]

16 minutes ago, albertluque said:

Is there a map somewhere that breaks down the different countries?

This is the map for the Americas. For Europe that map is still developing, likewise for Asia, Africa and Oceania.

[Wolf_pd]

Seems that I have a solution for the Chelseas of this world

[Jorgen]

15 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Seems that I have a solution for the Chelseas of this world

Delete them altogether?

[Roy Race 9]

On 22/08/2024 at 21:00, Wolf_pd said:

Seems that I have a solution for the Chelseas of this world

 

On 23/08/2024 at 12:02, Jorgen said:

Delete them altogether?

gone one further in my World banned  the EPL [it was a corporate super league breakaway from EFL/FA, who finally grow a pair and take back control ]

records are expunged for that period and good old Division one to Division four is back with stringent rules that reign in the so called elites along with compulsory fan ownership and no tycoons allowed

Edited August 24 by Roy Race 9

[Wolf_pd]

On 23/08/2024 at 02:02, Jorgen said:

Delete them altogether?

No, but with some small changes the Premier League can really be curtailed. It also breaks their European strength. Quite interesting and already works while I hadn’t even put in some other rules I have in mind.

[Roy Race 9]

On 22/08/2024 at 21:00, Wolf_pd said:

Seems that I have a solution for the Chelseas of this world

as you say my World my rules [I like that saying]

EPL gone history expunged 

[Golden Gordon]

I'd be interested to hear exactly what you did. I have taken some measures but it's not have the complete effect I am after. 

[Wolf_pd]

Buildnations

I will use the term build nation from time to time in my posts. A build nation is the nation you build your competition in. Every FM nation except for most of the extinct ones has a combination of a name base, demographics (determining the newgen faces in game) and a language to determine how players look and are named. Remark, I don’t know the details of this process, but this is a generalisation of how things work based on my tests and things visible in the game.

Looking at that you want the best possible combination between the buildnation you use and the nation you are building. Obviously using the real nation is the best match. So you build Brazil with buildnation Brazil of course. Below is the current list of combinations.

Rio de la Plata - Argentina
Araucania - Chile
Uruguay - Uruguay
Brazil - Brazil
Bolivia - Bolivia
Tawantinsuyu - Peru
Colombia - Colombia
Guyana - Suriname
Honduras - Costa Rica
Yucatan - Guetamala
Nahua - Mexico
California - undecided
Texas - undecided
Cascadia - undecided
Nunangat - undecided
Oceti Sakowin - undecided
Canada - Canada
Illinois Confederation - undecided
Iroquois Confederacy - undecided
Acadiana - undedicded
Florida - Cuba
United States - United States
Bermuda - Bermuda
Quebec - undecided
Newfoundland - undecided
Greenland - Faroe Islands
Lucaya - The Bahamas
Hayti - Haiti
Borinquen - Puerto Rico (?)
Virgin Islands - British Virgin Islands
Sint Maarten - Sint Maarten
West Indies Federation - Jamaica
Curaçao - Curaçao 

10 nations have an undecided builnation with nothing that comes close enough in terms of demographics or namebase.

Borinquen is a question mark as I might be able to use Puerto Rico better and one of the Central American nations (Belize maybe?) might be a better match on what I want in terms of names and demographics.

Nations that I have in reserve are Paraguay, Ecuador, Caribbean nations and Central American nations. This might fill in gaps where I need a (partial) Spanish namebase and Native American and Hispanic ethnicity, but for North American nations at least a larger percentage northern ethnicity is needed as well. That’s an issue here and not easily solvable.

The workaround right now is to work with the English language Caribbean nations as they are the closest in terms of language and namebase (except for Quebec that is…). Maybe Gibralfar could be an option, although I might need that one for Europe still.

Ethnicity is not something we can change in the editor, player pictures will not show the demographics as they are in the North American nations. It is as it is.

I have created a base set of competition files for each confirmed nation to set a base for the world setup. I have a file with all international competition deleted and I am slowly removing nations that I (currently) am not needing.

Deleting nations is quite easy until you end up deleting European nations. There it can be tricky and you will find out on occasion that some nation do not like to be deleted and you need to do more than just extinct the nation, but that’s for later.

You might think, but what about all those extinct nations? Good shout. At this moment I don’t want to use them yet as I need to see how the rest of the world rolls out of my mind before I know where to use the extinct nations. Also, I am still having hope for FM25 to allow some mix and matching to see if women football nations can be used for history (likely) or nation building (less likely, really depends on how they will set things up.

Edit: Noticed that I missed Acadiana on my list

[Wolf_pd]

On 27/08/2024 at 07:04, Golden Gordon said:

I'd be interested to hear exactly what you did. I have taken some measures but it's not have the complete effect I am after. 

In FM23 @Roy Race 9 discussed several solutions to the dominance of English teams. One of them was to release all players that were not registered for the Premier League. Turns out that works very well. I then tested it on Italy, Germany, Spain and France as well, but since they have second teams, it seems they can evade it by moving players around.

[Golden Gordon]

On 28/08/2024 at 15:42, Wolf_pd said:

In FM23 @Roy Race 9 discussed several solutions to the dominance of English teams. One of them was to release all players that were not registered for the Premier League. Turns out that works very well. I then tested it on Italy, Germany, Spain and France as well, but since they have second teams, it seems they can evade it by moving players around.

Thanks, I'll go and read up on his threads/posts to see what he did. I'm pretty certain it's a multi faceted approached and some things, such as releasing non registered EPL players, requires some thinking outside the square.

[Wolf_pd]

3 hours ago, Golden Gordon said:

Thanks, I'll go and read up on his threads/posts to see what he did. I'm pretty certain it's a multi faceted approached and some things, such as releasing non registered EPL players, requires some thinking outside the square.

Releasing the non-registered players in the Premier League was the easy part, but Germany has second teams, so they can move players around at will. Same for Spain, France and possibly Italy. Now for Historical Divergence second teams in competition will not happen so much (allergic for them because of the Dutch Jong teams), but Germany will need some extra rules.

[Wolf_pd]

With the delay of FM25, I will continue a little longer in FM24 with this. Question is what level the editor will be as well, so there is a chance that I continue in FM24 anyway and only test files to see what happens with certain items (second nations etc) when I load a 24 file into the 25 editor.

While the delay is not a good sign and that is made clear with the explanation that the Unity integration turns out to be tougher than expected, the removal of being able to acitvely manage a national team is more of a thing for both my mods. Especially Iron Curtain is aimed at being an international manager next to managing a club team. Since Historical Divergence is going to take a while longer, it would only hinder a little bit in testing some things. Which is why the decision might be to continue in FM24 for testing reasons instead.

I am a bit surprised at the amount of discussion about removing weight, but apparently people need to spend time on showing their anger on that. 

[grade]

3 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

With the delay of FM25, I will continue a little longer in FM24 with this. Question is what level the editor will be as well, so there is a chance that I continue in FM24 anyway and only test files to see what happens with certain items (second nations etc) when I load a 24 file into the 25 editor.

While the delay is not a good sign and that is made clear with the explanation that the Unity integration turns out to be tougher than expected, the removal of being able to acitvely manage a national team is more of a thing for both my mods. Especially Iron Curtain is aimed at being an international manager next to managing a club team. Since Historical Divergence is going to take a while longer, it would only hinder a little bit in testing some things. Which is why the decision might be to continue in FM24 for testing reasons instead.

I am a bit surprised at the amount of discussion about removing weight, but apparently people need to spend time on showing their anger on that. 

Word

It seems SI was wrong about that. Apparently lot of people do care for weight showing or people didn't like the justification for its removal. I haven't came to conclusion which one os correct... probably both.

[Wolf_pd]

15 minutes ago, grade said:

Word

It seems SI was wrong about that. Apparently lot of people do care for weight showing or people didn't like the justification for its removal. I haven't came to conclusion which one os correct... probably both.

Considering my own weight changing regularly, I can't really be bothered by it being shown or not. So for people not understanding/agreeing the reasoning, I can understand that. It's the real anger that has shown through that surprises me.

I mean, weight doesn't say much. I am 1,73 (so pretty small for Dutch guy) and my healthy and fit weight is 84 kilos. That's healthy and fit based on health checks by several doctors last december. So what does it matter? Muscle is heavier than fat anyway.

Anyway, that's my two cents on weight.