[FM42] A brave new world - Historical divergence

[sherwinriga]

1 minute ago, Wolf_pd said:

Not yet in Asia, but that's because Europe is complicated. Napoleon is a bit of a busy beaver.

Oh, boy. That's going to be tough. I hope that you'll have an idea on what to do in Europe, which I recommend go with Western Europe. France may be divided where Occitania+Monaco and Basque Nations may be possible. The islands of Corsica and Sicily may be united too. So, those are my thoughts now.

[Wolf_pd]

6 hours ago, sherwinriga said:

Oh, boy. That's going to be tough. I hope that you'll have an idea on what to do in Europe, which I recommend go with Western Europe. France may be divided where Occitania+Monaco and Basque Nations may be possible. The islands of Corsica and Sicily may be united too. So, those are my thoughts now.

Way ahead of you

The map is slowly forming. It’s rather connecting the dots and the fallout of some decision points. Western Europe is getting close to done. Southern Europe is pretty much done, Southeastern Europe is a bit of a puzzle, Eastern Europe more so, but some suggestions in the thread have been taken on board or send me into a direction to help me slice through the Gordian knot.

[Jorgen]

8 hours ago, sherwinriga said:

Yep. I have been following this thread to see if any progress in Asia-Pacific, but hopefully, you'll have some plans about balkanized Philippines and possibly, Japan. I love the real life PFL and J.League, which they're more competitive in the recent years.

I've managed Stallion Laguna in the Philippines. Was a very enjoyable save. Was very hard to be competitive in the Asian Champions League though

[Golden Gordon]

Australia here. Will be interesting how Oceania pans out, as well as large chunks of Asia and most of Africa, given how much colonising went on courtesy of Europe, especially Britain and their Empire. Happy to give any perspective on Australian/New Zealand colonial history if required, both sociologically and for football. In our reality football of all codes in Australia is a messy maze.

[Wolf_pd]

7 hours ago, Golden Gordon said:

Australia here. Will be interesting how Oceania pans out, as well as large chunks of Asia and most of Africa, given how much colonising went on courtesy of Europe, especially Britain and their Empire. Happy to give any perspective on Australian/New Zealand colonial history if required, both sociologically and for football. In our reality football of all codes in Australia is a messy maze.

You are right on pointing out the European influence on the rest of the world, that's why my focus is on getting Europe in order and it needs to be done while keeping in mind the effect on the rest of the world. For instance, I already have made one big change in Europe which has major implications for central Africa. At the same time, that European change and the knockon effect of it, does open up a road for changes in that central African area which actually do connect it to current day affairs.
So two routes, real-life and the alternative history one, end up at the same junction in 2024. It's just that some of the variables have been changed which do change the balance of power in certain ways.

PS: The area I am talking about in Africa is the DR Congo, but I am not telling you which butterfly flapped its wings

[XaW]

32 minutes ago, Wolf_pd said:

PS: The area I am talking about in Africa is the DR Congo, but I am not telling you which butterfly flapped its wings

[Wolf_pd]

6 hours ago, XaW said:

Impressive beard, but no, he is not involved. Not that his absence makes things better in the long run. But I am happy to report this mass murderer disappears from history.

[Wolf_pd]

On a sidenote, I really need to start gathering information on football controversies and see if I can alternate the competition histories as well (first and second level and main cup at most btw). Italy does provide some options for that, but my own Netherlands has some possibilities too.

[XaW]

31 minutes ago, Wolf_pd said:

Impressive beard, but no, he is not involved. Not that his absence makes things better in the long run. But I am happy to report this mass murderer disappears from history.

I just heard DR Congo and changed up due to changes to colonialism, and my thoughts jump to The Congo Free State, and thus to old Leopold II and his, well let's keep this suitable for the forum, rather exploitive and cruel reign there.

[Wolf_pd]

Congo Free State doesn’t happen, that’s the good news. It still will get messy, that’s the bad news.

[Jorgen]

2 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

On a sidenote, I really need to start gathering information on football controversies and see if I can alternate the competition histories as well (first and second level and main cup at most btw). Italy does provide some options for that, but my own Netherlands has some possibilities too.

Controversies like the doping scandal of Juventus in the final vs Ajax in 1996?

Perhaps Christoph Daum and Uli Hoeneß, FC Hollywood and nations with a bit of matchfixing here and there?

[XaW]

3 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

On a sidenote, I really need to start gathering information on football controversies and see if I can alternate the competition histories as well (first and second level and main cup at most btw). Italy does provide some options for that, but my own Netherlands has some possibilities too.

What happens to the Bosman verdict? Will it still happen? Can you create a world where it didn't, technically in the editor?

[Wolf_pd]

46 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

Controversies like the doping scandal of Juventus in the final vs Ajax in 1996?

Perhaps Christoph Daum and Uli Hoeneß, FC Hollywood and nations with a bit of matchfixing here and there?

Oh, there are many many errors. I did some quick googling and wikipedia-ing in native languages and you find a treasure trove of shenanigans

[Wolf_pd]

22 minutes ago, XaW said:

What happens to the Bosman verdict? Will it still happen? Can you create a world where it didn't, technically in the editor?

The Bosman verdict can be removed without issue. The Iron Curtain does so. I am contemplating whether to remove the Bosman verdict completely, or partially, as the original claim that Bosman put down with Belgian courts was smaller than what was eventually decided. Also, there is also the Kolpak ruling which has more impact.

 

[Wolf_pd]

While I am overthinking my sins in the Iron Curtain files, I am also working a bit on a Brazil file. After much reading I came to a setup that doesn’t differ much from the current setup. The difference is that it is more streamlined and made more efficient, but other than that Brazilianfootball  does have its own flavour with the state competitions. Only decisions to make is to set foreign player policies and transfer policies.

[Wolf_pd]

In the meantime I am also looking through colonial history and it seems I am getting to the point where World War 1 really is THE deciding point, just like the Napoleonic Wars are another one.

Deepdiving into colonial history brings up a wealth of things I didn't know, like for instance that if the Belgian troops weren't send back in German East Africa, the Belgian possesions after WW1 could have included 1/3rd of Tanzania as well. Next up is, what to do with that information

[Wolf_pd]

Working a bit on a colonial map for 1918-1920
Colour coding, France = Bleu, Portugal = Red, British Empire = Purple, Italy = Green, Yellow = Spain, Pink = Ethiopia
If you know your history, you will maybe notice a few things that look out of the ordinary, but the map currently is mainly correct for this period. Grey parts are either places where I need to draw my own borders (Morroco and Nigeria area) and places that are under discussion (the four voices in my head are not agreeing, as per usual).

[Wolf_pd]

Btw, this doesn't mean I am doing Africa first. It's just that I took some time of the Iron Curtain to do something else to cleanse my editing palette.

[Wolf_pd]

After reading another post I am playing around a bit with discipline rules. The fun you could have with rules like, no bans for yellows, until you have 5 and you are banned until the end of the season  Or just one red and you are done for the rest of the season as well! I wonder whether the AI manager adjusts to this.

[Jorgen]

21 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

After reading another post I am playing around a bit with discipline rules. The fun you could have with rules like, no bans for yellows, until you have 5 and you are banned until the end of the season  Or just one red and you are done for the rest of the season as well! I wonder whether the AI manager adjusts to this.

Imagine watching Portugal vs The Netherlands and Ivanov is the ref... bye bye national teams

[Wolf_pd]

1 hour ago, Jorgen said:

Imagine watching Portugal vs The Netherlands and Ivanov is the ref... bye bye national teams

The man is 62 by now, so no chance he will return refereeing

But maybe there is a relation in the game with the same "skill" level.

Btw, I ran a test with those bans and the list of players banned until the end of season was quite long. It's the one red card and you are done mostly.

Edit: Hmm, this would be evil for a World Cup indeed. Hmmmm.....

[Vakama2619]

3 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Edit: Hmm, this would be evil for a World Cup indeed. Hmmmm.....

Grab the popcorn

[PaMi 7]

FM32...FM42...I don't understand, sorry

[Jorgen]

2 hours ago, PaMi 7 said:

FM32...FM42...I don't understand, sorry

It takes a lot of time to make such a big project. Therefore, there is no time yet when Wolf thinks he will be ready.

[Vakama2619]

16 hours ago, PaMi 7 said:

FM32...FM42...I don't understand, sorry

Could probably be as late as FM52 mate, it's a big project

[Golden Gordon]

38 minutes ago, Vakama2619 said:

Could probably be as late as FM52 mate, it's a big project

I hope not. I can't wait that long......might not be around by then.

[Jorgen]

On 02/06/2024 at 03:56, Golden Gordon said:

I hope not. I can't wait that long......might not be around by then.

Lets'hope you are still alive and kicking by then

[Golden Gordon]

3 hours ago, Jorgen said:

Lets'hope you are still alive and kicking by then

Thanks, me too. If I get to 2052 I'll be 90, so no guarantees. Yes, I'm an old fart.

[Jorgen]

15 hours ago, Golden Gordon said:

Thanks, me too. If I get to 2052 I'll be 90, so no guarantees. Yes, I'm an old fart.

Perhaps you are the oldest FM'er in the world by then 😂😉👍🏻

[Wolf_pd]

15 hours ago, Golden Gordon said:

Thanks, me too. If I get to 2052 I'll be 90, so no guarantees. Yes, I'm an old fart.

I will make sure to speed up

[Wolf_pd]

Chapter 0 for Europe should be done somewhere this weekend. If you are French, look away now (I am joking).

[Wolf_pd]

Warning, long post
TL;DR Napoleon made a bit of a mess of Europe

Chapter 0

We start our story here in 1769 in Ajaccio, the island of Corsica. On August 15th that year, Napoleone di Buonaparte was born, later known in life as Napoleon Bonaparte and Emperor of the French Napoleon I. You might wonder, his birtname sounds rather Italian? Well, his family was of Italian origin, Corsica was ceded to France only year before Bonaparte was born and his father fought during the war of independence against France. So Bonaparte was an Italian by blood. However, while his father was originally fighting France for Corsican independence, he would later befriend the French governor of Corsica. This governor would become the godfather of Bonaparte and also support Bonaparte obtaining a scholarship to a French military academy. At age 15 he was admitted to the École militaire in Paris and he would graduate the next year. If you think that was because of his superior military skills, you are wrong. It was a matter of money, but Bonaparte exhibited the required level to graduate of course.
His first notable military succes would be the Siege of Toulon which was occupared by British and allied forces. His tacttic to increase available artillery and capture a hill to dominate the city's harbour led to the capture of the city. This success brought him under the attention of powerful men including Augustin Robespierre, the brother of the man who was the architect of the Reign of Terror.

Relations between the French government and neighbouring monarchies had deteriorated to the point that several European powers waged war against the French. This set of wars was called the War of the First Coalition although there was little coalition. France went on the offensive instead and gained various lands across western, southern and central Europe. Bonaparte as the rising star was send out on various campaigns in the northern region of the Italian peninsula. He would conquer most of northern Italy before Austria sued for peace. This peace would end the War of the First Coalition as only Britain was left to fight. His victory in Italy would incease his status and position in French politics.

After this Bonaparte would leave for Egypt to seize it for France and undermine Britains trade access to India. Just before Bonaparte left for Egypt the War of the Second Coalition would break out. Bonaparte would get stuck in Egypt. His invasion of Syria is seen as a battle of the war, but would be nothing more than a diversion for the British and Ottoman forces. Becoming aware of the crisis in France he would return to France, leaving his army behind. He used his popularity and army support to mount a coup that made him First Consul, head of the French government.
Freshly returned from Egypt, Bonaparte would take matters into his own hands with his army crossing the alps through Switzerland to fight the Austrians in northern Italy. With Austria sueing for peace once again, the British were left alone again in Western Europe, while they were able to defeat the French army in Egypt, together with the Ottomans. The war ended in victory for France consolidating their terrirtory in Germany and gaining recognition for several French puppet-states.

Bonaparte used the temporary peace to strengthen his grip on France while also preparing for war as the peace with Britain was rather uneasy. Britain was not willing to fulfill the promises from the treaty while protesting several French decisions. Ultimately this resulted in Britain declaring war in 1803. This was not yet the War of the Third Coalition as at this time it was only Britain as the aggressor. It took two years and the killing of the Duke of Enghien to shock the other European Great Nations into action and start the Third Coalition. At the same timw, the execution dampened resistance in France against Bonaparte who was soon after crowned Emperor of France as Napoleon I. Despite the Battle of Trafalgar where the French navy was soundly beaten, France dominated mainland Europe with a deciding victory at the Battle of Austerlitz. It took only three months before the next war broke out, the War of the Fourth Coalition. This time Prussia would join as well fearing the growing French influence in Central Europe. Unfortunately for the French opponents, once again the French came out victorious and this would be no different in the War of the Fifth Coalition. However, slowly but surely the Fifth Coalition showed that it was possible to defeat Napoleon. The war also lead to various rebellions that foreshadowed nationalist and anti-French risings.

When Napoleon sought to secure the dynasty by a strategic marriage with the Austrian Emperor's daughter, this was by the Tsar seen as an attempt to contain Russia. Russia would ban French imports and allow neutral shipping in respons. Obviously Napoleon was not on board with this and started planning the invasion of Russia. As the world would see many years later, invading Russia was not a good idea....
And you know how competitiors work, when they sense weakness, they will attack you. And so the War of the Sixth Coalition started. Fighting the Russians, Prussians, Spanish, British, Austrian, several German states and many more would prove too much. Several days after the Coalition armies entered Paris lead by the Russian Tsar, the French Senate passed the Acte de déchéance de l'Empereur, the law to depose Napoleon as emperor.
Napoleon would abdicate 9 days later. The victorious parties would exile Napoleon to Elba and the monarchy would be restored in France.

Next step was to clean up the mess Napoleon created in Europe. In Vienna the Austrian diplomat Klemens von Metternich would chair several international diplomatic meetings to discuss and agree on a new layout for Europe.
There was just one problem. As Napoleon wasn't exactly the person to sit still, he decided to escape Elba for France. He took up his title as Emperor again and assembled an army in an attempt to split the British and Prussian army. Duke Wellington would withstand a barrage of attacks by Napoleon until the Prussian troops arrived. The Prussian would inflict a devastating defeat on the French. Everyone knows where this was of course, Waterloo.
To avoid a repeat of Napoleon returning to France, he was now exilaed to the island of Saint Helena in the South Atlantic Ocean where he would pass away from stomach cancer 6 years later, ending the life of Corsica's most famous son.

If you read along, you might have noticed that this summary does not contain much information on the fate of many nations in Europe. Most of that would be decided during the Congress of Vienna. Some borders that would be set there would remain until current day, although sometimes temporarily suspended. In other cases the borders that would be drawn would be the starting point of new conflicts in later years.

So with Napoleon in our backview mirror, next we will look at Vienna for the map of Europe that is drawn under the auspices of Austrian Klemens Wenzel Nepomuk Lothar, Prince of Metternich-Winneburg zu Beilstein

[Golden Gordon]

Now things are about to get very interesting. I'll be grabbing my favourite snacks for the next installment.

[Wolf_pd]

As I am away from home at the moment, I have spend last night looking through African colonial history, in this case, the history of DR Congo, Rwanda, Burundi, Angola and Zambia. There are some nice stories forming there. It also shows what a hot mess decolonisation caused IRL, and in a way (because of hindsight) I will try to make things ‘better’. 

[Wolf_pd]

Quiet evenings in a hotel help to tie things together. First thing tomorrow will some map work to show the Europe map in 1792 (this was before our friend Napoleon went on a rampage) and then it is working out everything that gets changed because of the Congress of Vienna. However, after that we are still more than 200 years away from the current day, so there are enough shenanigans possible. South and West Africa are coming together nicely as well, north from the line Cameroon-Central African Republic-Kenya does need some work though. Partly that is also because I am still contemplating UAFA and because I am waiting to see what FM25 brings.

Also, there is a good chance I am on tv in Switzerland tonight (in the background), because a Swiss reporter was doing some atmosphere reporting in Cologne where I was the last three days.

And Cologne did give me some ideas for Historical Divergence in terms of team name rules. Rules which at first were applied in Germany after WW2 btw.

[Wolf_pd]

I am doing the final review on Chapter 1, the Congress of Vienna (and other treaties). While it doesn't have much big changes, seeds for change are sown.

Next is first the decision how much time Chapter 2 will cover and then the needed research.

 

[Wolf_pd]

TL;DR How the Great Powers made Europe great again

Chapter 1 - The Congress of Vienna and the fallout of the Napoleonic Wars

In 1814, the Congress of Vienna was not just meant to clean up the mess Napoleon had left behind. It was meant to ensure that large scale conflicts like the Napoleonic Wars would not occur in the future. The idea was that with the four, later five, Great Powers in agreement, it would stop wars before they took place or keep them limited to smaller regional wars. This smaller wars could also be easily contained by one or more Great Powers when needed.

Next to the Congress of Vienna, there was the (first) Treaty of Paris to decide on the fate of France. The Treaty of Paris of 1814 was a rather light one, at least compared to what Napoleon had caused to his opponents. The borders of France were reset to those of 1792, the Bourbon monarchy was restored and independence of French neighbours was restored. Chief negotiator on French side was Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord and he must have been very satisfied with himself. Losing conquered territory was to be expected, but with no French territory lost, he had a good case to present to his new king.
Of course there were more treaties to negotiate territorial changes arising from the Napoleonic Wars. For easy comprehension all these treaties will be grouped together under the Congress of Vienna banner, except for two specific ones not yet mentioned. The Treaty of Kiel was concluded to end hostilities between Denmark-Norway, who were on the French side, and Sweden who together with Great Britain fought on the anti-French side. Denmark would lose Norway to Sweden, but kept the dependencies of Iceland, Greenland and the Faroe Islands. Norway was not at all thrilled at the prospect and attempted to gain independence. This rebellion was quickly squashed by the Swedes. This also shows the division of power inside the personal union. Despite the Norwegian-Swedish animosity there was also the realisation of having trusted neighbours was better than constant fighting. This applied to the Swedish-Danish relation as well.
With France being rather smug and satisfied the Treaty of Paris, you might have overlooked it was the FIRST treaty of Paris. Talleyrand had done good work for France, but when the news spread that Napoleon had returned to France from Elba, his mood must surely have soured. After the Waterloo battle a second Treaty of Paris was decided which was much more strict on France. It included losing French soil to neighbouring countries, France being occupied by several Great and smaller powers and several financial penalties. Talleyrand was not happy, but had Napoleon to blame for it. The rumor goes that it was in fact Talleyrand and not the Brits who proposed to send Napoleon to Saint Helena!
Prussia would occupy and later receive the regions of Alsace, Lorraine, Champagne and the French Ardennes, being assisted by other German nations like Baden, Hesse, Württemberg and Saxony. Great-Britain would occupy Normandy. The Austrians would occupy the area between Switzerland and the Mediterranean coast, with the assistance of Sardinia. The Spanish would occupy the Aquitaine region, while the Russians would occupy the region between Aquitaine and the Austrians covering the Mediterranean coast. The Swiss would occupy a small area from the Swiss border 20 kilometers into France. Lastly, Bavaria was responsible for the occupation of Paris. This occupation was set to last five years and then all armies would return home.

With these treaties settled, it is time to look at the decisions taken at the Congress of Vienna. Although pretty much all parties involved were invited, it was just the four Great Nations (Austria, Prussia, Great Britain and Russia) deciding on the territorial changes.

• - Russia received most of the (created by Napoleon) Duchy of Warsaw and retained Finland which it had annexed from Sweden and would hold it as the Grand Duchy of Finland.
• - Prussia received three-fifths of Saxony, western parts of the Duchy of Warsaw, Gdańsk (Danzig) and the Grand Duchy of the Lower Rhine.
• - A German Confederation of 39 states, under the presidency of the Austrian Emperor, was formed from the previous 300 states of the Holy Roman Empire. Not all territory of Austria and Prussia were included in the Confederation with the territories where German was not the standard language not included.
• - The Netherlands and the Southern Netherlands became a united monarchy, the United Kingdom of the Frisian lands, with the House of Orange-Nassau providing the king. The northern part of France where the inhabitants still spoke a version of Flemish was also added to Frisia. The region of Ostfriesland which was added to the Netherlands in the Napoleonic Era was not added to the German Confederation, but remained Frisian.
• - To compensate for Orange-Nassau's loss of the Nassau lands to Prussia, the United Kingdom of Frisia and the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg were to form a personal union under the House of Orange-Nassau, with Luxembourg (but not Frisia) inside the German Confederation. Luxembour would also be expanded gaining Namur and parts of the former Liège province. Prussia would be responsible for the defence of Luxembourg.
• - The neutrality of the cantons of Switzerland was guaranteed and a federal pact was recommended to them in strong terms. Swiss mercenaries were not allowed to be hired, except for the Swiss Guards in service of the Papal States.
• - The former Electorate of Hanover was expanded to a kingdom. It gave up the Duchy of Lauenburg to the Kingdom of Denmark, but gained former territories of the Bishop of Münster. Hanover was an territory where Prussian and British interests intertwined.
• - Austria regained control of Tyrol and Salzburg, of the former Illyrian Provinces (territory on the Slavic Adriatic coast and inwards), of Tarnopol district (from Russia) and received Lombardy–Venetia in Italy. Former Austrian territory in Southwest Germany remained under the control of Württemberg and Baden. The Austrian Netherlands were also not recovered.
• - The Grand Duchy of Tuscany was restored with Ferdinard III as Grand Duke
• - The Duchy of Modena and Reggio was restored with Archduke Francis IV as the ruler
• - The Papal States in Italy under the rule of the Pope were restored to their former extent, with the exception of Avignon and the Comtat Venaissin, which remained part of France.
• - The Kingdom of Sardinia, re-established in Piedmont, Nice, and Savoy, gained control of Genoa (putting an end to the briefly restored Republic of Genoa) and Monaco.
• - The Most Serene Republic of San Marino came under the rule of the Papal States ending 524 years of independence
• - The territory of Andorra was added to Spain

Outside Europe Britain retained control of Tobago; Ceylon and various other colonies in Africa and Asia. Other colonies, most notably the Cape Colony in Southern Africa and the Frisian East Indies, reverted to their previous overlords.

And with that the Great Powers had made sure peace would last for centuries in Europe. And nope…..

Next we look at the end of the Occupation of France and the start of the roaring Twenties!

[Jorgen]

That was quite an interesting read @Wolf_pd Keep the stories coming

[Wolf_pd]

In the meantime I have spend some time on US data to set up the world better there. It's interesting to see how some states are basically one big city with a lot of nothing. Since MLS is getting cut up I need to make sure to have an alternative and while several nations will have the gradual natural growth of a competition (mainly the southern ones), there will be franchise based competitions as well.

On Monday I need to stay in a hotel for work (first day back at work and it's two office days in a row...) and I have planned some time to work on the next chapter that evening.

[Wolf_pd]

With FM25 approaching I worked on some test files to see what changes the editor in FM25 will accept and which ones will give errors and need to be fixed. I am fearing another round of second nationality errors and I would hope SI would have enough options for that by now.... Depending on what happens with that file in FM25 I have to decide how to edit players. There is some discussion between the voices in my head anyway, because as the player file would become very big, what's the best way to keep it small? Maybe an age split although that would mean edit it in one FM version and then load it up several FM version later to avoid having to redo the same changes every FM which is very time intensive. On the other hand, the player editing work is very good for the mind when you just want to shut down your brains for a bit.

I looked at my gaming hours the last three weeks and it's next to nothing. Less than 30 hours in three weeks, where I have the editor going on average 6 hours a day normally