Player Development & Newgens

[baris28]

Dele Alli and Salih both in Beşiktaş midfield were talent before. Interesting thing is one is coming from Premier league other from Italian league.  Interesting is that they are not even the best players in Turkish league. Even in their team squad. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by baris28

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 6 horas, Zachary Whyte dijo:

Hey everyone, our upcoming update will include some changes regarding player development.

As mentioned above by a few users it's a delicate issue to balance. Many factors have to be taken into account, it's not as simple as just raising/lowering reputation. 

Also, in real life a lot of players are mismanaged or do not fully develop, (often stagnating) Dele Alli is a good example. Not every high potential Newgen can become Messi, some might end up like Bojan. 

Player development is something we're constantly evaluating as part of our long term game AI strategy. When our update drops we'd love to hear your feedback.

We understand that, what we don't get it is why is this incompatible with seeing newgens overpassing 32 years old players. We don't want 10 Messis in the game, what we want and we asked for during a year it's about that the game can generate a england midfielder aged 20-22 that it is better than Mount, Henderson or Rice aged 32-36. And I didn't see it in four saves.

[abcdf]

12 minuti fa, brez22 ha scritto:

This is a very fair point. I've just checked my long term save that I am going to park for the next update and the 2nd highest potential player in the game is at Man City and hasn't played a game for them. He has started going on loan but at 22/23 its too late to see the acceleration he needs to reach his potential.

The other thing I notice is that the players I managed are all way closer to their potential. The best rated newgen at 193 CA has maxed out and I managed him. 

I think they've slowed down people reaching their potential but it means you don't really see the benefit of newgens until well past 2030. Its not totally unrealistic, just maybe not enough players bursting onto the scene really quickly.

Of course the players you managed got closer. Because you loaned them and/or gave them adequate first team playing time. The AI loans management and squad management in general is the problem. And given that in the game if young players don’t play, they don’t improve their ability, the situation becomes terrible after a few years

[abcdf]

I am very curious to see whether this has been fixed or not with the update. 

I'll send some feedback here after some testing

[StevehFC]

Just now, abcdf said:

I am very curious to see whether this has been fixed or not with the update. 

I'll send some feedback here after some testing

Waiting to start a new save for this reason. Hope it's fixed. 

[Gee_Simpson]

I honestly don't think something like this can be fixed so quickly.

[Maviarab]

3 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I honestly don't think something like this can be fixed so quickly.

They've had 3 years....

[Zapoleon]

4 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

I honestly don't think something like this can be fixed so quickly.

The issue was reported back in 22. I think it's clear they don't fully understand the causes of this issue. Hence why their previous attempts to fix it did not work. The other big thing is they are scared about causing bigger bugs and breaking the game more if they start messing about with things too much. 

So at best for 23 I think we were always only going to get a few tweaks and improvements to make things better than they were, but by no means was the issue going to be fixed. 

[abcdf]

Guys, after playing for this very short time, the situation seems to be better, at least concerning AI teams actually OFFERING their talents for loan instead of making them unavailable.

 AI teams now do offer their best prospects for loan and seem to encounter more interest from other teams than in the past. But I would need a little more time to be certain.

Seems like a good start though. Another big part of this bug is about squad selection (i.e do teams pick youngsters in their starting eleven despite their lower reputation?). This I have not tested yet

[rp1966]

From the patch list:

Improvements to International squad selection logic to help younger players get called up more often

Fixed an issue where high CA players retain relatively high physical attributes late in their careers

Both of these should help a bit.  There's also something else talking about development loans.  

Don't think it will be a full solution, but a start ...

Edited March 2, 2023 by rp1966

[albertocerdeira.4]

Somebody to check?? I wont be able to do it until tomorrow

[evilpimp972]

il y a 4 minutes, abcdf a dit :

Guys, after playing for this very short time, the situation seems to be better, at least concerning AI teams actually OFFERING their talents for loan instead of making them unavailable.

 AI teams now do offer their best prospects for loan and seem to encounter more interest from other teams than in the past. But I would need a little more time to be certain.

Seems like a good start though. Another big part of this bug is about squad selection (i.e do teams pick youngsters in their starting eleven despite their lower reputation?). This I have not tested yet

I do think thats a start, not the realistic solution though, in Spain they rarely loan out players, because of B / C teams. 

The problem is that playing in those teams doesnt seem to help player development as much as it does in real life

[abcdf]

2 minuti fa, evilpimp972 ha scritto:

I do think thats a start, not the realistic solution though, in Spain they rarely loan out players, because of B / C teams. 

The problem is that playing in those teams doesnt seem to help player development as much as it does in real life

Yeah that's definetly part of the problem. In real life players transition from B teams to first teams without needing any loans, especially in Spain.

[abcdf]

Dortmund B side, now almost every young player seem to be listed for loan, before the patch they used to make them unavailable. 

Good sign

[andu1]

that looks promising

[StevehFC]

That looks good. 

[SupraFlush]

I'm currently starting a save with several leagues loaded, most only the first division but the top two from the "big 5" (England, Germany, Italy, Spain and France). I'll let it go over the night, with the target to be ten years into the future, and i'll upload the save after it's done. I might not have the time to investigate how everything looks, but i'm sure someone will give it  look. I'll update later exactly what leagues and so forth that i loaded, but i really need to get to bed now! See ya all tomorrow, hopefully with good news!

 

The leagues i've loaded are:

 

England (2 divisions)
Argentina
Belgium
Brazil
France (2 divisions)
Hollande
Italy (2 divisions)
Croatia
Portugal
Scotland
Spain (2 divisions)
Sweden
Germany (2 divisions)

Eu, South America, Africa: Players from clubs top division, Players from top clubs

Start England,27/6 - 2022

Add players to playable teams, Do not use hidden values

20 leagues, 13 countries, large database, about 135 000 players

No added databases

 

I'll keep you updated with the save, in case anyone wants to give it a go or just check the results. I probably won't have the time to give it a deep check, the wifey has me bookde for the weekend, but i'll make sure to upload the save as soon as i can! Does anyone have a particular upload site the recommend?

Edited March 2, 2023 by SupraFlush

[Gee_Simpson]

5 hours ago, abcdf said:

Dortmund B side, now almost every young player seem to be listed for loan, before the patch they used to make them unavailable. 

Good sign

Seems this is a common thing in the game now, a lot of my players in the youth teams at Benfica are set to loan outs.

[Robioto]

I have run a holiday game until 14 September 2032 (just over 10 years) with medium database and the big 5 European leagues active with all divisions loaded. This is to see if the issues with player development and old players not retiring and still performing well into thier late 30s.

It seems much older players are rarer now, but the top teams still have too many older players in thier team/squad IMO, but it does look better. Also the national teams don't seem to bring through new talent very well, full of oldies. I'll screenshot all the major team squads on 14 September 2032, please see below

Of the teams looked at, here are the averages ages in 2022 versus 2032. We can clearly see that most teams have older players, of the 19 teams looked at only 3 saw a reduction, 2 stayed the same and 14 teams increased thier average age. Overall it came out to 2 years on average across the 19 teams, with Barcelona seeing a huge increase in average by 6 years. On an important side note, of the 19 teams latest matchday squad, there were only 3, yes 3 teenagers included. All teams are now loaning out multiple young players which is a big step in the right direction.

Even if things are better, it seems there is a long way to go to get this rectified.

 

ENGLAND (Arsenal, Manchester City, Manchester United, Newcastle United, Chelsea, Tottenham Hotspurs, Liverpool)

 

FRANCE (Paris Saint-Germain, Olympique Lyonnais, AS Monaco)

 

GERMANY (Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund)

 

ITALY (Juventus, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Napoli)

 

SPAIN (Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid)

Edited March 3, 2023 by Robioto

[noikeee]

Honestly that's crap, there's far too few regen players on those squads, which is a red flag given regens are everyone in the game world below the age of 25 at that stage.

There's always this clear cut-off point between real players and regen players and how squads are built around them which just breaks immersion. The transition between them just isn't seamless enough.

[StevehFC]

1 hour ago, Robioto said:

I have run a holiday game until 14 September 2032 (just over 10 years) with medium database and the big 5 European leagues active with all divisions loaded. This is to see if the issues with player development and old players not retiring and still performing well into thier late 30s.

It seems much older players are rarer now, but the top teams still have too many older players in thier team/squad IMO, but it does look better. Also the national teams don't seem to bring through new talent very well, full of oldies. I'll screenshot all the major team squads on 14 September 2032, please see below

Of the teams looked at, here are the averages ages in 2022 versus 2032. We can clearly see that most teams have older players, of the 19 teams looked at only 3 saw a reduction, 2 stayed the same and 14 teams increased thier average age. Overall it came out to 2 years on average across the 19 teams, with Barcelona seeing a huge increase in average by 6 years. On an important side note, of the 19 teams latest matchday squad, there were only 3, yes 3 teenagers included. All teams are now loaning out multiple young players which is a big step in the right direction.

Even if things are better, it seems there is a long way to go to get this rectified.

 

ENGLAND (Arsenal, Manchester City, Manchester United, Newcastle United, Chelsea, Tottenham Hotspurs, Liverpool)

 

FRANCE (Paris Saint-Germain, Olympique Lyonnais, AS Monaco)

 

GERMANY (Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund)

 

ITALY (Juventus, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Napoli)

 

SPAIN (Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid)

How many regen players are world class in the save? 

[Dotsworthy]

Sounds like they've made some progress but still have some improvements to make, which is a shame.

It would be interesting to know if the loaning out of players has improved the average CA of newgens compared to last patch.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Dotsworthy

[warlock]

2 hours ago, Robioto said:

I have run a holiday game

You're going to have to explain this better, because I simply don't understand your point. If all of those teams have players with an average age of 27-ish, that means they have a lot of players who were circa 17/18 at the start of the save. So, what is your point?

[Dreambuilder]

You need to holiday until 2052 to see if there will also be too many old newgens 

[albertocerdeira.4]

Checked it out.

 

Some improvements but soo far to be balanced, another time that looks like SI haven't tested deeply absolutely nothing.

 

Squads in 2032 are older than in 2022 and the average regens are worse than the 2022 wonderkids. It's better than before but for me this is not enough. Don't know what the hell do you disbalance in 2022 but it's a long way to be fixed

 

Seems impossible to SI to generates Pedri's, Gavi's, Bellingham's or Mbappés who breaks into the first teams with 18 years. Disgraceful and very disappointed.

 

I'll try to share the data this evening but as you are noticing it continues to be unbalanced.

 

Test the damn updates before launching, for the god's sake. I'm more disappointed than ever with a game I've been playing for +15 years

Edited March 3, 2023 by albertocerdeira.4

[abcdf]

I can confirm that the problem, even though slightly better, is still there for a good part.

[abcdf]

9 ore fa, Robioto ha scritto:

I have run a holiday game until 14 September 2032 (just over 10 years) with medium database and the big 5 European leagues active with all divisions loaded. This is to see if the issues with player development and old players not retiring and still performing well into thier late 30s.

It seems much older players are rarer now, but the top teams still have too many older players in thier team/squad IMO, but it does look better. Also the national teams don't seem to bring through new talent very well, full of oldies. I'll screenshot all the major team squads on 14 September 2032, please see below

Of the teams looked at, here are the averages ages in 2022 versus 2032. We can clearly see that most teams have older players, of the 19 teams looked at only 3 saw a reduction, 2 stayed the same and 14 teams increased thier average age. Overall it came out to 2 years on average across the 19 teams, with Barcelona seeing a huge increase in average by 6 years. On an important side note, of the 19 teams latest matchday squad, there were only 3, yes 3 teenagers included. All teams are now loaning out multiple young players which is a big step in the right direction.

Even if things are better, it seems there is a long way to go to get this rectified.

 

ENGLAND (Arsenal, Manchester City, Manchester United, Newcastle United, Chelsea, Tottenham Hotspurs, Liverpool)

 

FRANCE (Paris Saint-Germain, Olympique Lyonnais, AS Monaco)

 

GERMANY (Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund)

 

ITALY (Juventus, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Napoli)

 

SPAIN (Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid)

Could you open a ticket in the bug tracker with those findings? I think it could be helpful

 

[abcdf]

Nevermind, I opened one myself if you want to add your findings 

 

[Domoboy23]

Can I just say:

A couple of peoples results from a couple of holiday sims are not an adequate sample size.

Are leagues being run in full detail on these also? I'd imagine that would be beneficial for players rep and development and therefore international call ups and breaking into club first teams.

 

[Platinum]

9 minutes ago, Domoboy23 said:

Can I just say:

A couple of peoples results from a couple of holiday sims are not an adequate sample size.

Are leagues being run in full detail on these also? I'd imagine that would be beneficial for players rep and development and therefore international call ups and breaking into club first teams.

 

The vast majority of people only have one league set to full detail so I dont think that really matters. But yes the more people that show their results the better. 

Ill post my results today

[abcdf]

33 minuti fa, Domoboy23 ha scritto:

Can I just say:

A couple of peoples results from a couple of holiday sims are not an adequate sample size.

Are leagues being run in full detail on these also? I'd imagine that would be beneficial for players rep and development and therefore international call ups and breaking into club first teams.

 

I am running mine with 15 nations and 37 leagues loaded. Full details on for the major leagues like Premier league, Serie A, Bundes, Liga and Ligue 1.

The situation has surely improved, but I still see some issues. The development process overall seems just to make it impossible to have 20yrs old world class players. Which, I mean, it is rare, but at times it happens. Mbappè, Pedri, Musiala ecc. 

Moreover, the team selection from the AI is still poor. Still based on mainly CA and reputation, and youngsters tend to have a lower reputation that older affirmed players.

The loaning process did improve though, and that is good. 

[Robioto]

57 minutes ago, abcdf said:

Nevermind, I opened one myself if you want to add your findings 

 

Cool, will do after I finish work today

[Robioto]

59 minutes ago, Domoboy23 said:

Can I just say:

A couple of peoples results from a couple of holiday sims are not an adequate sample size.

Are leagues being run in full detail on these also? I'd imagine that would be beneficial for players rep and development and therefore international call ups and breaking into club first teams.

 

I get it's a small sample size, but for my own benefit I wanted to run a 10 year holiday game to see if the issue looked fixed and I decided to share with the community too. You've also got to start somewhere...

However, it's pretty clear from this top level look that there are still issues either the AI, reputation, older players dominating, national team selection and most importantly youth development. Things do seem to have improved though, but it is far from perfect, but playable enough for me to start my annual long term save, which was my objective with this.

It will be interesting to see what others see over the coming weeks.

I ran all the top 5 countries in full detail, with all divisions loaded on medium database. I could have done more, but I wanted to finish running it last night, which took approximately 5-6 hours on my system.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Robioto

[Robioto]

8 hours ago, warlock said:

You're going to have to explain this better, because I simply don't understand your point. If all of those teams have players with an average age of 27-ish, that means they have a lot of players who were circa 17/18 at the start of the save. So, what is your point?

Perhaps read this thread and the feedback thread for more context? I'm not here to baby you through this. I'm just trying to build a picture of where SI are with youth development in long term saves for my own benefit and decided to share with the community too.

[LeoFM]

11 hours ago, Robioto said:

I have run a holiday game until 14 September 2032 (just over 10 years) with medium database and the big 5 European leagues active with all divisions loaded. This is to see if the issues with player development and old players not retiring and still performing well into thier late 30s.

It seems much older players are rarer now, but the top teams still have too many older players in thier team/squad IMO, but it does look better. Also the national teams don't seem to bring through new talent very well, full of oldies. I'll screenshot all the major team squads on 14 September 2032, please see below

Of the teams looked at, here are the averages ages in 2022 versus 2032. We can clearly see that most teams have older players, of the 19 teams looked at only 3 saw a reduction, 2 stayed the same and 14 teams increased thier average age. Overall it came out to 2 years on average across the 19 teams, with Barcelona seeing a huge increase in average by 6 years. On an important side note, of the 19 teams latest matchday squad, there were only 3, yes 3 teenagers included. All teams are now loaning out multiple young players which is a big step in the right direction.

Even if things are better, it seems there is a long way to go to get this rectified.

 

ENGLAND (Arsenal, Manchester City, Manchester United, Newcastle United, Chelsea, Tottenham Hotspurs, Liverpool)

 

FRANCE (Paris Saint-Germain, Olympique Lyonnais, AS Monaco)

 

GERMANY (Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund)

 

ITALY (Juventus, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Napoli)

 

SPAIN (Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid)

My long term save happened to be in 2032 so I can add some data from the 23.2 update:

2032 - 23.2

The results look worryingly similar.

EDIT: For reference, this is my database setup:

Edited March 3, 2023 by LeoFM

[Domoboy23]

Are the numbers used for squad average age from the stats/facts screen? I only ask as I notice a lot of AI sides keep players in the U21's but will insert them into the matchday squad and play them. Otherwise I think the numbers on that page are a club average age for the first team...

If I run the numbers for a playing AI XI at various points in the season (usually an opposition) it's usually a lot closer to the 25 mark even for elite sides.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Domoboy23

[LeoFM]

10 minutes ago, Domoboy23 said:

Are the numbers used for squad average age from the stats/facts screen? I only ask as I notice a lot of AI sides keep players in the U21's but will insert them into the matchday squad and play them. Otherwise I think the numbers on that page are a club average age for the first team...

If I run the numbers for a playing AI XI at various points in the season (usually an opposition) it's usually a lot closer to the 25 mark even for elite sides.

That's a good point. But I can't find the first XI average age anywhere in the game, is it something that needs to be manually calculated?

Edit: I just used the numbers from the club list.

Edited March 3, 2023 by LeoFM

[Overmars]

The improvement from pre-patch is appreciated, though. I just checked my pre-patch European save with 25+ leagues active and 8 of them on full sim. Man City has an average first team age of 32. Liverpool, Barcelona, and Chelsea have an average of 31. Seeing people's post-patch tests with these numbers in the high 20s is a good improvement, even if it isn't ideal.

Improving loan behaviour was the right approach, but I think the game still slows down the speed of development too soon in a player's career. Shifting the aging curve even by just one year might fix everything. 

I wish this is something we could help SI test for FM24.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Overmars

[numbas2]

Fantastic that this has generated so much noise.

I've actually started a new save with @Daveincid database, last Friday, pre-data update (I just couldn't wait...) and hope to avoid these issues to some extent.

[azymin]

Based on patch notes they have attempted to fix some of the symptoms of squads getting older - international selection and teams loaning out players, but they haven't fixed he underlying issue of young players' reputation, which is the primary cause of the mayhem. 

Would've been nice to get some communication from SI regarding why they did what they did (perhaps reputation fix would take too long?).

Does anyone know if they attempted to fix reputation issue?

[numbas2]

10 hours ago, warlock said:

You're going to have to explain this better, because I simply don't understand your point. If all of those teams have players with an average age of 27-ish, that means they have a lot of players who were circa 17/18 at the start of the save. So, what is your point?

I have to say this isn't just about average ages for me.

For example a current day world class player on FM22 would be Kevin De Bruyne say, well in my 2030 save the equivelent player of world class ability would be a version of Deli Alli. I exaggerate a little! The best players in the world were crap except for a smaller number (not enough to populate the top teams like 2022) and so there were lots of older existing RL players still playing.

[Wolf_pd]

11 minutes ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

The point it's that the game IS NOT CREATING a number of top players enough to replace the existing top players. There are no Bellinghams, no Musialas, no Gavis, no Vinicius and no Mbappes, so a  "Liverpool" hasn't enough young players to sign in 2030 to improve their team.

The youth development is f*ckd, the reputation is f*ckd and the AI selection is f*ckd. They tried to improve it in the FM 2022 and they completely broken it. Don't know what to expect, SI is making profit despite this big issue

While you can express your frustration, we ask you to keep your language clean. Anymore *s and we might have to take action on it.

[blejdek]

45 minutes ago, numbas2 said:

Fantastic that this has generated so much noise.

I've actually started a new save with @Daveincid database, last Friday, pre-data update (I just couldn't wait...) and hope to avoid these issues to some extent.

What is his database most known "fix", I mean why should I use his database. Does it fix the development of younger players, to be picked more and to actually AI teams choose the high PA players in their match squads ?

[greenz81]

Dear SI

 

Is it possible to get any feedback with regards on how you dealt with the development fix? Give these guys a chance to decipher what is going on in the background? If its just *iffy coding you cannot resolve until you create a brand new engine from scratch... could you inform the community instead of them hitting their head against an immovable brick wall. Its times like this that i stress..... the use of BETA is pointless if you are not taking numbers from the information from the public. To me, the beta release is just pre-purchase, disguised as BETA. You are not taking any notes/info from the users of BETA.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

The point it's that the game IS NOT CREATING a number of top players enough to replace the existing top players. There are no Bellinghams, no Musialas, no Gavis, no Vinicius and no Mbappes, so a  "Liverpool" hasn't enough young players to sign in 2030 to improve their team.

The youth development is f*ckd, the reputation is f*ckd and the AI selection is f*ckd. They tried to improve it in the FM 2022 and they completely broken it. Don't know what to expect, SI is making profit despite this big issue

 

Thanks for the headsup! No more FM until it's fixed for me sadly.

[Domoboy23]

1 hour ago, albertocerdeira.4 said:

The point it's that the game IS NOT CREATING a number of top players enough to replace the existing top players. There are no Bellinghams, no Musialas, no Gavis, no Vinicius and no Mbappes, so a  "Liverpool" hasn't enough young players to sign in 2030 to improve their team.

The youth development is f*ckd, the reputation is f*ckd and the AI selection is f*ckd. They tried to improve it in the FM 2022 and they completely broken it. Don't know what to expect, SI is making profit despite this big issue

 

Disagree with this strongly.

I'm seeing far too many wonderkids on my save (pre-patch, not had time to look post yet).

There's a difference between newgen creation/ability and AI selection/development.

[numbas2]

51 minutes ago, blejdek said:

What is his database most known "fix", I mean why should I use his database. Does it fix the development of younger players, to be picked more and to actually AI teams choose the high PA players in their match squads ?

You can view the thread from my previous post where I @ him.

[Dotsworthy]

2 hours ago, blejdek said:

What is his database most known "fix", I mean why should I use his database. Does it fix the development of younger players, to be picked more and to actually AI teams choose the high PA players in their match squads ?

The main fix is to readjust reputation gains players get from reserve teams and youth awards so that the high quality youngers can catch up to older players.

He also adjusted managers to be more inclined to play younger players.

[ZEBEDEU]

4 horas atrás, numbas2 disse:

Fantastic that this has generated so much noise.

I've actually started a new save with @Daveincid database, last Friday, pre-data update (I just couldn't wait...) and hope to avoid these issues to some extent.

Have you noticed any issues with those files on this update? I ask you this because I noticed that Daveincid said on another thread that some of his files aren't compatible with this version.

Edited March 3, 2023 by ZEBEDEU

[SupraFlush]

Hey all! Finally back, and with the save for 2032 done for those interested. I won't have the time to check it out today, but someone else might be interested in it or just want to play a bit in the future

https://www.mediafire.com/file/a5r7988aa57mysk/FM_Holiday_Save_-_2032.fm/file