Stamina drops during a match . . .

[stockwellpete]

How does this work exactly, please?

 

Does the performance of players incrementally drop as the stamina rating degrades during a match - or do performance levels stay at 100% until a certain stamina rating is achieved e.g. "fair" or "poor" - and only then do they start to diminish quite significantly?

 

Thanks.

[Wavelberry]

From my anecdotal experience, others mileage may vary, I have noticed that my CBs after about 65/70 minutes cannot play the higher line effectively any more and need subbed or dropped back to cover.

[stockwellpete]

1 hour ago, Wavelberry said:

From my anecdotal experience, others mileage may vary, I have noticed that my CBs after about 65/70 minutes cannot play the higher line effectively any more and need subbed or dropped back to cover.

OK. That suggests that there is a sudden drop off rather than an incremental degradation from the start. CB's stamina levels after 65/70 minutes are often at "Fair" and go to "Poor" around 75/80 minutes, in my experience. This is unrealistic, of course, unless the player was "Tired" to start with, or is carrying an injury.

[stockwellpete]

On 08/07/2023 at 07:46, stockwellpete said:

How does this work exactly, please?

 

Does the performance of players incrementally drop as the stamina rating degrades during a match - or do performance levels stay at 100% until a certain stamina rating is achieved e.g. "fair" or "poor" - and only then do they start to diminish quite significantly?

 

Thanks.

Does anyone know the answer to this question, please?

[XaW]

17 hours ago, stockwellpete said:

Does anyone know the answer to this question, please?

From the manual:

Quote

Stamina

The player’s ability to endure high-level physical activity for a long period of time. With the demands placed on a player over a full season, players with high attribute ratings for Stamina are able to perform at their top levels for longer. A player with less Stamina not only tires more quickly, but the quality of execution in all phases of play decreases the more tired they become. It also ties in directly with Natural Fitness.

 

[stockwellpete]

I am still puzzling over this issue. I have been looking at the CIES Football Observatory Monthly Report n°68 for October 2021, which I have found online after a random search. It gives figures for 2020 and 2020/21 for average distances covered during a match for 5 categories of position in some of the best leagues in Europe, including the English Premiership . . .

Centre back - 9222m

Full Back - 9888m

Midfielder - 10611m

Winger - 10253m

Forward - 9945m

Separate figures are also given for high intensity running and sprints here . . .

Monthly Report 68 (football-observatory.com)

 

Now I am not completely happy with these 5 categories. For instance, where do wing-backs fit into this classification? I regard them as auxiliary midfielders and quite different from full backs, particularly at the elite level of the sport. Also, what is exactly meant by wingers these days - and how are they so different from inside forwards? So there are some grey areas for me here. Nevertheless, when I compare these numbers with numbers taken from the game for my part-time Vanarama South outfit (last season) then there seems to be a significant mismatch for full backs and wingers. The other positions seem to reasonably similar, although it should be noted that my players are semi-professional and are playing at a much lower level of football.

 

Towards the end of last season, I took these statistics from my team/tactic selection screen (average over3 matches) . . .

Centre Backs - 9700 and 9300

Full Backs - 11800 and 13700

Midfielders - 10000 and 10400

Wingers - 11900 and 13800 

Forwards - 9900 and 1080 

 

I don't know if statistics are kept for the non-league divisions, or whether individual clubs have commissioned their own studies (I expect it is quite expensive to do), but my guess is that there is a gradual drop off in overall distances covered and high intensity running as you move down through the pyramid system. How does the game deal with this issue? Does it assume the running statistics are similar for all levels in the game and not differentiate at all? Or is there some sort of taper in operation? I haven't played the game enough at Premier League level to track these sort of statistics for the elite clubs yet. If you are managing an elite club, what are your running statistics for the various categories of position telling you? 

 

 

[stockwellpete]

"Top football is tough nowadays, 60 games a year in club football, 10 international games. Seventy games means that every third or fourth day you have to match the highest physical levels. When you’re not living the right life, you get killed. What is important? Sleep, recovery, nutrition. Three key areas and when you don’t do this right, you have a problem. You can’t perform.”

Ten Hag (Man Utd) Guardian today, 31/7/23

[Etebaer]

I guess the performance of tired players depends also on the level or tiredness the oposing playeers have - a significant peformance drop/disadvantage shoud be expected when a tired player meets an oposing fresh player while an oposing players in the same tired state should pretty much make no difference in perfomance aside that both should be making more errors which in the end equals out even.

Practically i usually sub my starting Winbacks around minute 67 bcs it seems to me a performance drop of significance is to be epected around minute 70 of the game.

Also players with very low stamina need to be subbed of...

In the end it is one of many factors that influences a match and maybe other factors can mitigate low stamina like a high mirale, discipline, determinaiton, captaincy etc.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Etebaer

[stockwellpete]

15 hours ago, Etebaer said:

I guess the performance of tired players depends also on the level or tiredness the oposing playeers have - a significant peformance drop/disadvantage shoud be expected when a tired player meets an oposing fresh player while an oposing players in the same tired state should pretty much make no difference in perfomance aside that both should be making more errors which in the end equals out even.

Practically i usually sub my starting Winbacks around minute 67 bcs it seems to me a performance drop of significance is to be epected around minute 70 of the game.

Also players with very low stamina need to be subbed of...

In the end it is one of many factors that influences a match and maybe other factors can mitigate low stamina like a high mirale, discipline, determinaiton, captaincy etc.

It is the effect on gameplay that I am more concerned about really. I am not saying the current situation is unfair as the AI teams are also completely knackered as well. The basic premise in the game that players get exhausted playing less than 90 minutes of football is just wrong, in my opinion. If it was correct then there wouldn't be such a thing as extra-time in KO matches because most players wouldn't be able to cope with it. It needs correcting, but I don't have much expectation that it will be. 

[Etebaer]

Well, to my experience it depends on the player if they can stay on field with low stamina - some start to make errors while others can cope with it and still perform commendable.

The game will message you when players seem to need a rest and that is when low stamina becomes dangerous imho, until then it is not that big of deal.

But when the game messages you player x is tired and needs rest than it becomes  a challenge...

[Jack Joyce]

On 08/07/2023 at 07:46, stockwellpete said:

How does this work exactly, please?

 

Does the performance of players incrementally drop as the stamina rating degrades during a match - or do performance levels stay at 100% until a certain stamina rating is achieved e.g. "fair" or "poor" - and only then do they start to diminish quite significantly?

 

Thanks.

Player condition has an incremental effect that gets increasingly strong as it gets lower. So it's not a sudden drop/change at specific levels and the 'fair', 'poor' labels are just that - labels.

The only caveat being that if your player reaches the lowest possible condition level then there's an additional significantly increased chance of injury if they continue to play.

[stockwellpete]

20 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

Player condition has an incremental effect that gets increasingly strong as it gets lower. So it's not a sudden drop/change at specific levels and the 'fair', 'poor' labels are just that - labels.

The only caveat being that if your player reaches the lowest possible condition level then there's an additional significantly increased chance of injury if they continue to play.

 

OK, so a player whose stamina is still "Very Good" implements the team plan more effectively than a player whose stamina level is "Good", "Fair" or "Poor"? But there is only an increased chance of injury if the stamina level drops to "Very Poor"? I would have to check when it is that my assistant gives me a message that a player is "exhausted", but it is probably when a players stamina level drops to "poor" so that I have a chance to avoid the possibility of injury.

 

I see that you are part of the Sports Interactive Team. Do you agree that stamina drops are excessive in the game? I know it is the same for the AI teams, but my overwhelming consideration when making substitutions in a match is the stamina level of my players. It should be part of my consideration, but subtle tactical changes very often go completely out of the window. Usually, I end up with 5 or 6 players finishing the game on "Very Poor" stamina (these are the ones that I could not substitute). And these players are then ruled out of the next match completely if it is only 3-4 days later. I think a lot of nuance is being lost from gameplay and, quite frankly, it becomes tedious after a while. Btw I usually manage at Vanarama level in the game.

[Jack Joyce]

On 02/08/2023 at 15:28, stockwellpete said:

 

OK, so a player whose stamina is still "Very Good" implements the team plan more effectively than a player whose stamina level is "Good", "Fair" or "Poor"? But there is only an increased chance of injury if the stamina level drops to "Very Poor"? I would have to check when it is that my assistant gives me a message that a player is "exhausted", but it is probably when a players stamina level drops to "poor" so that I have a chance to avoid the possibility of injury.

 

I see that you are part of the Sports Interactive Team. Do you agree that stamina drops are excessive in the game? I know it is the same for the AI teams, but my overwhelming consideration when making substitutions in a match is the stamina level of my players. It should be part of my consideration, but subtle tactical changes very often go completely out of the window. Usually, I end up with 5 or 6 players finishing the game on "Very Poor" stamina (these are the ones that I could not substitute). And these players are then ruled out of the next match completely if it is only 3-4 days later. I think a lot of nuance is being lost from gameplay and, quite frankly, it becomes tedious after a while. Btw I usually manage at Vanarama level in the game.

There's an incremental increased chance of injury across any stamina level, but once you hit the lowest level it's a significant jump.

To be honest, the majority of the feedback we get about stamina drain is that it's not harsh enough, and that intense tactics such as gegenpress etc. are too easy to play without doing much rotation. If you're seeing a lot of stamina issues, it may be worth reviewing how you're asking your team to press relative to how much time they spend without the ball - teams like Manchester City can press very intensely off the ball IRL because they spend the majority of the time with it.

[stockwellpete]

3 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

There's an incremental increased chance of injury across any stamina level, but once you hit the lowest level it's a significant jump.

To be honest, the majority of the feedback we get about stamina drain is that it's not harsh enough, and that intense tactics such as gegenpress etc. are too easy to play without doing much rotation. If you're seeing a lot of stamina issues, it may be worth reviewing how you're asking your team to press relative to how much time they spend without the ball - teams like Manchester City can press very intensely off the ball IRL because they spend the majority of the time with it.

Well, I am not using gegenpress at all in my current game as St Albans City and we usually have around 50% possession using a "Positive" mentality at home and a "Balanced" mentality away. We are part time, so I only get four training slots a week and I cannot coach "pressing" at all. My players recover OK if we are playing just once a week, even though I usually finish a match with 5 or 6 players at "Very Poor" stamina. But these 5 or 6 players have no chance of playing in the next match if it is 3 or 4 days after, because they have not fully recovered. This includes the centre-backs who should be able to comfortably cope with playing Saturday-Tuesday-Saturday, provided it does not happen for 3 or 4 weeks consecutively. 

 

It sounds to me like the gegenpress tactic is too powerful in the game then. It is actually relatively easy to beat the high press part of the gegenpress system just by launching long passes up to the centre forward and getting runners to support and compete for second balls. Only muddle-headed coaches insist that their players should still play out from the back through the press, even though they often end up conceding the ball near their own penalty area. There seem to be a lot of coaches like this in real life operating at the elite level. Just because the rules now don't require the ball to leave the penalty area from a goal kick, it doesn't mean your team has to commit suicide playing tippy-tappy across your own 6 yard box.

 

So what I usually have to do with my St Albans team is use my 4 outfield substitutes to replace the first 4 players who reach "Very Poor" stamina levels. This is usually after 60-70 minutes. Only occasionally, I will make a tactical substitution if someone is having a stinker and they have also been cautioned - and very occasionally I will take some of my best players off after 75 minutes if we have either safely won, or completely lost, the match. This is my main gripe. Concerns about stamina drops are blocking out my other tactical considerations, even though players do not actually get "exhausted" playing football matches. Then, if I have a midweek match coming up with no training session in-between, I have to drastically change my team as half a dozen of my players will only recover to "Good" and "Tired" by kick-off time. If I play them they will be at "Very Poor" stamina before half-time of this second match. If I am lucky enough to have a training session scheduled before the second match, then I allow myself to use the "Rest" "1 day" facility in the "Training" section to signify that I have excused them from training. Even just a 1 day rest does help the players recover much more. The only downside is that this is very tedious to do individually for each affected player (around 15 of them each time).

 

The way I have got round this issue is to just increase the size of my squad by wheeling and dealing on the transfer market. I sell a star player each season to raise funds and I never pay a transfer fee myself, just free transfers and no-cost loans. I usually have a trialist at the club as well so I can gradually upgrade the team through the season. I am not sure how accurately this reflects what is happening now at non-league clubs at steps 5 and 6 of the pyramid. I think the game would be more interesting, and my squad more settled, if the stamina drops were not so harsh.