Fining players for poor performance

[Kickballz]

I always hated the feature in fm 22 where I can fine players if they have 6.5 or less performance.

It bugs me because it is illegal in the real world, and also because It is exploitable, ie you can keep reloading and trying again until Determination or Work Rate improves,

I'm thinking about starting a game with fm 23 and would appreciate if someone could tell me if this feature has been changed,

Thanks.

(btw I know I can ignore the feature)

Edited September 21, 2023 by Kickballz

[CLS]

4 hours ago, Kickballz said:

I always hated the feature in fm 22 where I can fine players if they have 6.5 or less performance.

It bugs me because it is illegal in the real world, and also because It is exploitable, ie you can keep reloading and trying again until Determination or Work Rate improves,

I'm thinking about starting a game with fm 23 and would appreciate if someone could tell me if this feature has been changed,

Thanks.

(btw I know I can ignore the feature)

1) It's nowhere near as simple as "illegal in the real world" - different countries have diferent labour laws, and while it may be illegal in some it's perfectly legal in others, especially if it's a standard stipulation in player contracts.

2) Everything is exploitable if you cheat! There can be good or bad outcomes and it's partially random. No different to saying matches are exploitable because you can reload until you win.

[XaW]

19 minutes ago, CLS said:

1) It's nowhere near as simple as "illegal in the real world" - different countries have diferent labour laws, and while it may be illegal in some it's perfectly legal in others, especially if it's a standard stipulation in player contracts.

2) Everything is exploitable if you cheat! There can be good or bad outcomes and it's partially random. No different to saying matches are exploitable because you can reload until you win.

FIFA (through a ruling at CAS) has decided it's not legal. So FIFA rules disallow it, and while a few countries are not recognized by FIFA, all FM nations are.

https://sportlicitors.com/just-a-day-an-ordinary-day/

Quote

On Saturday 31st March 2018, Olympiacos FC of Greece played to a 1-1 draw against a mid-table club, i.e Levadiakos. This result left the club in third position in the league standings.

The President of the club was irked by the result and a perceived accumulated “poor performances”. Consequently, he fined the first-team players the sum of £350,000 and also banished them from the club until the beginning of the next football season. What shall be considered in this article is whether (by the regulations of FIFA and the jurisprudence of sports dispute resolution bodies) a club can fine and/or banish its player for “poor performance(s)”.

The two sanctions of the president of the club will be treated as follows”:

I. Fines, Deductions or Withholding of Salaries:

The question that comes to the mind is, can a club fine, deduct from, or withhold the salary of a footballer if the level of his performance is not at the same level as that of when the club signed him? Will the club not be justified since they are not getting a commensurate return for the salary the player is being paid?

By the jurisprudence of the Dispute Resolution Chamber (DRC) of FIFA and the Court of Arbitration for Sports (CAS), an employer cannot deduct from, or refuse to pay the salary of a professional footballer based on low performance(s). The imposition of fines on a player based on his low performance is also not valid.

In the DRC decision of 27 April 2006, a player and a club  signed a one-year employment contract. At the expiration of the contract, the player wrote to the club that it had breached the employment contract due to non-payment of USD 32,750 as appearance fees. When the club failed to respond, the player lodged a formal complaint against the club at FIFA.

There, the club stated that it had paid all monies that it was obliged to pay in accordance with the contract and furnished a list of payments to support its claim. It was revealed that the club had imposed fines on the player based on his low performance during the subsistence of the contract. The player asked the DRC to order the club to pay USD 42,750. In arriving at its decision in favour of the player, the DRC outlined that low performance, in general, cannot be considered a reason for the club to reduce payments to the player, because it is unilaterally determined by the club and based on pure subjective criteria. The DRC concluded that the imposition of fines and deduction from monies payable to the player by the club cannot be accepted.

Furthermore, it is worthy to note that even if there is a clause in the contract of the player that provides that the player will only be paid the whole or a percentage of his salary per time, only if he plays a particular number of matches, such a clause will be regarded by the DRC as arbitrary and unacceptable since it is at the discretion of the club to decide how many matches the player plays. It would have been legal if the club agrees an amount as his basic salary, and states a bonus payable only if the player plays a particular number of matches; in which case the player cannot enforce the payment of such bonuses if he did not play the required number of matches.

II. Banishment:

Also, by the decisions of the DRC and CAS, a player cannot be banished from the team solely on the ground of poor performance. In the case of Olympiacos FC which is the case study of this article, it does not matter (in my opinion) that it was all the first team players that were banished from the team. If any or all of them were to take legal action, he/they would be successful.

Based on previous FIFA decisions, although a player is not entitled to be selected for matches, he is entitled to partake in training sessions and other activities of the club. This is logical and reasonable because if a player is banished from the club’s training sessions and/or other activities because of poor performance, how would he have an opportunity to stake a claim for being selected in subsequent matches, since a coach usually makes an assessment of his players and selections at training sessions.

In the DRC decision of 12 December 2013 (No. 12132884), it was reiterated that among a player’s fundamental rights under an employment contract, is not only his right to a timely payment of his remuneration, but also his right to access training and to be given the possibility to compete with his fellow team mates in the team’s official matches. It was held that banishment constitutes a serious breach of contract.

However, it is worthy to note that there would be no breach of contract if a player is excluded from training with the first team, and asked to train with the second team; except there is a clause in his contract with the club which forbids it. See the DRC decision of 8 June 2007 (No. 67229) and Dutch KNVB Arbitration Tribunal 29 August 2008, (No.1214.)

So what can a football club do in such a circumstance?

You may begin to wonder, does that mean a football club is helpless and cannot take any action? The answer is no. There are steps the club can take, which include:

a. Non-selection: Generally, a football player is not entitled to be selected for the matches of the club as long as the player is regularly paid his salary and the club respects all other contractual obligations. Thus, if the level of performances of a player drops, the club may refuse to select him for the club’s matches; provided such a player does not have a clause in his contract that guarantees him being selected in the first team of the club.

In a DRC decision of 17 August 2006(No. 86154), the contract included a clause that the player was guaranteed to stay in the first team regardless of his performances. The DRC held that even if the performance of a player had not been at the expected high level, the club had, by explicitly putting this clause in the employment contract, undertaken the commitment to allow the player into its first team.

b. Transfer listing: The player’s club may make the player available in the transfer market. In which case, another club may pay a transfer fee to buy out the contract of the “underperforming” player; if the player agrees to a transfer to the new club.

c. Mutual termination: The club and the player may attempt amicable settlement, by discussing and agreeing at a mutual termination of the contract between the club and the player. This is usually achieved upon payment of compensation to the player by the club. In such a circumstance, the player becomes a free agent and may sign for another club at no transfer fee.

d. Unilateral termination: This is the least-advised action to take. However, in extreme circumstances where no other club has shown interest in the services of the player and an attempt at mutual termination has failed, the club may unilaterally terminate the contract of the player but pay up all salaries, bonuses and any other entitlements of the whole duration of the contract of the player. This is however not advisable as the club may still be subject to a claim from the player, especially where there is a dispute as to the amount of entitlements paid.

Conclusively, it is apparent that based on the legal principles of the DRC and CAS, the President of Olympiacos Football club acted illegally, and the club may be liable to pay their full salaries and compensation if an action is explored by the players concerned.

[Sizeman21]

I've never enjoyed the thought of fining players for poor performances. Dropping said player does plenty for them to understand their past performance can not stand as acceptable. Adding a fine to this trouble adds no extra benefits. 

[Kickballz]

3 hours ago, CLS said:

1) It's nowhere near as simple as "illegal in the real world" - different countries have diferent labour laws, and while it may be illegal in some it's perfectly legal in others, especially if it's a standard stipulation in player contracts.

2) Everything is exploitable if you cheat! There can be good or bad outcomes and it's partially random. No different to saying matches are exploitable because you can reload until you win.

(btw I know I can ignore the feature)

I made a point of editing my post because I knew someone like you is going to come along and make point 2. Just to be clear, I'm not interested in that.  I just wanted an answer to the question.

Thanks,

[thecaveman]

IMHO - Fining players for poor performance is totally acceptable because you cannot just fire them like you would to continually under-performing employees. Imagine Joe Blow coming to work and repeatedly not performing his duties - pack your bags you are done. A Football player is paid a lot of money to play football and if they cannot execute the function for which they are being paid they should be subject to some form of disciplinary action. Dropping a Player does nothing except affect their morale which in turn can affect performance. And if you continue to leave him out of the starting squad he starts pulling a Sancho/Ronaldo and whines like a 2 year old about playing time and you are destroying his career and so on.

 

I start with Warnings and conversation regarding poor form. 3 Warnings and then I progress through the monetarial discipline route until I get to 3 - 1 week wage fines at which point the player squad status is changed to "Surplus to Requirements" , transfer listing and demotion to U21 Squad until such time that they are out of the club.

[White Flag]

It may be "totally acceptable" to you but it isn't to others. And as XaW says, it is also totally illegal both from a FIFA and (certainly in the UK) from a contract law perspective.

In any case, performance is subjective. One persons 5 rating s another persons 8 rating. Hopefully this unrealistic option will be gone in FM2024.

[thecaveman]

Ratings are not subjective - they are determined b the game engine not by the manager. 

Why remove something from the game that is optional? If you do not like it don't use it.

And what is your constructive suggestion to replace this mechanism to improve Determination?  What other mechanisms are there for a Football Club to manage performance? Football Players are paid to play Football and if they do that poorly then there needs to be some action the Club can take in order to ensure the Player does not come in and steal a living like Pogba did to Manchester United.

Here is mine - If it is illegal to fine players for poor performance then introduce something into the Player contracts - e.g.

1.Game Ratings below 6.4 Player will not be paid Match Appearance Fee. 

2.If Appearance Fees are withheld for three consecutive games player Squad Status is automatically reduced by 1 level.

3. Training Ratings below 6  for 2 consecutive weeks - Player is will automatically not be available for Selection.

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by thecaveman

[XaW]

1 hour ago, thecaveman said:

Why remove something from the game that is optional?

Because it's illegal in real life?

1 hour ago, thecaveman said:

What other mechanisms are there for a Football Club to manage performance?

I get the feeling you didn't read the article I posted above, if you did, then you would know the answer to this.

[thecaveman]

No i did not read your article because my Anti-virus software went mad when I clicked on the link .

If you want to go down the route of removing all aspects that are not true to life from the game then there are so many other aspects that will have to removed as well. The point I was trying to make was that instead of throwing soup on paintings and sitting in the road to block traffic be constructive and offer solutions instead of stamping your feet in indignant outrage.

So because FIFA have said no to Fining Players then it should be removed from the game -Ok -what performance issue disciplinary actions do you propose to replace the fine system?? Or are you of the belief that Paul Pogba like performance at Manchester United  must be tolerated and there can be no recourse for the club to try get its employee to fulfill his contractual obligations?

How about having a constructive dialogue regarding game mechanics instead of posting links to articles.

 

[toolkit68]

Footballers are workers - it is actually that simple. They fulfil a contract to deliver a certain kind of service which means if the service is below par what has been agreed on it should be possible to adjust payments for this service. That is what the fining does in FM as there are no other ways to adjust a player's payments directly other than firing them or putting them on the bench. In real life there are many more ways to challenge a contract including withholding payments etc. All this is non-existent in FM thus the fines are basically the only instrument we have left.

If you personally dont like it then just dont use it. You claim you are not about cheating but are aware of that fining players influences their determination which is a rather advanced knowledge most average players will not be aware of since it is not easily documented in the manual etc. Removing an entire feature that is one of the few instruments to react to poor performance is very short sighted.

[XaW]

9 hours ago, thecaveman said:

No i did not read your article because my Anti-virus software went mad when I clicked on the link .

Ok, then read the quote I posted in the same post, as it contains the whole article...

9 hours ago, thecaveman said:

If you want to go down the route of removing all aspects that are not true to life from the game then there are so many other aspects that will have to removed as well. The point I was trying to make was that instead of throwing soup on paintings and sitting in the road to block traffic be constructive and offer solutions instead of stamping your feet in indignant outrage.

So because FIFA have said no to Fining Players then it should be removed from the game -Ok -what performance issue disciplinary actions do you propose to replace the fine system?? Or are you of the belief that Paul Pogba like performance at Manchester United  must be tolerated and there can be no recourse for the club to try get its employee to fulfill his contractual obligations?

How about having a constructive dialogue regarding game mechanics instead of posting links to articles.

Everything is explained there, so why not read upon it before complaining?

[XaW]

7 minutes ago, toolkit68 said:

Removing an entire feature that is one of the few instruments to react to poor performance is very short sighted.

How about removing something that is illegal to do in real life?

[Gangor]

2 hours ago, XaW said:

How about removing something that is illegal to do in real life?

I'd guess the issue is that it's a feature in the game and there would be complaints (as we've seen) were it to be removed. It would also involve effort to do. Since FM25 is a new code base, probably they will tidy things like this up then.

[toolkit68]

11 hours ago, XaW said:

How about removing something that is illegal to do in real life?

FM is by many means nowhere near anything 'real'. How players compete against each other and why one wins and the other loses a challenge is pretty much a blackbox too. You just assume that things are fair and real as your personal believe system suggest it is. Same goes for many mechanics in a game that is based on something in real life. The game is mainly dealing with managing the team etc - thus it requires tools and mechanics to do so without actually being a football simulator. FM has several mechanics that are subpar and unrealistic yet they are the basic part that allows the AI to do what a human does too.

The entire basic setup favours the UK heavily due to unrealistic prices in that country and in long time saves this shows heavily. Unrealistic but still part of the game. You want that entire part of the database deleted  as well?

[XaW]

7 minutes ago, toolkit68 said:

FM is by many means nowhere near anything 'real'. How players compete against each other and why one wins and the other loses a challenge is pretty much a blackbox too. You just assume that things are fair and real as your personal believe system suggest it is. Same goes for many mechanics in a game that is based on something in real life. The game is mainly dealing with managing the team etc - thus it requires tools and mechanics to do so without actually being a football simulator. FM has several mechanics that are subpar and unrealistic yet they are the basic part that allows the AI to do what a human does too.

The entire basic setup favours the UK heavily due to unrealistic prices in that country and in long time saves this shows heavily. Unrealistic but still part of the game. You want that entire part of the database deleted  as well?

I never mentioned that things should be "real", I said that illegal things should probably not be part of the game. Doping is not in the game, bribery is not in the game, players gambling is not in the game, and neither should blatantly breaking the law (or FIFA regulations in this case) by withholding wages.

We can surely discuss this without creating paper tigers just to tear them down to prove a point?

[busngabb]

They need to expand the options to throw things at the players. They're all idiots and I should be able to physically hurt them. They 100% deserve it. I'm thinking benches, chairs, water coolers.

[thecaveman]

20 hours ago, busngabb said:

They need to expand the options to throw things at the players. They're all idiots and I should be able to physically hurt them. They 100% deserve it. I'm thinking benches, chairs, water coolers.

Cleats, Teapots. other players

[eXistenZ]

Unfortunately fining is the only consistent way in the game to warn players about bad performances. Player talks are so terrible and illogical that I avoid them as much as possible and regulary savescum them (like team talks)

I understand and agree hat they shouldnt be in the game if they are considered illegal, but it just highlights the need for a big overhaul of player interaction. If i had a nickel for every player with a 6.2 performance that said "i played brilliant, go see an optician"....

Its not the main reason that i wont buy fm24 but it definitly factors in

[angelo994]

I don’t really buy that fining players is illegal. What about Prem teams fining players for being late for training etc? This is definitely something that still goes on. 

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, angelo994 said:

I don’t really buy that fining players is illegal. What about Prem teams fining players for being late for training etc? This is definitely something that still goes on. 

Fining players aren't illegal, but doing so for poor performance in games are. Fines for coming late, or the like are fair game, I think, if it's in the contract of course. Performance however, are subjective and just about impossible to have an objective measure for. Coming to training after the scheduled time is an objective thing.

[ajt]

On 23/09/2023 at 21:30, busngabb said:

They need to expand the options to throw things at the players. They're all idiots and I should be able to physically hurt them. They 100% deserve it. I'm thinking benches, chairs, water coolers.

an idea i can get behind 100%

[autohoratio]

On 23/09/2023 at 21:30, busngabb said:

They need to expand the options to throw things at the players. They're all idiots and I should be able to physically hurt them. They 100% deserve it. I'm thinking benches, chairs, water coolers.

Or firing a player who refuses to leave out of a comically oversized cannon Looney Tunes style