Popular Post StephenG Posted October 31, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2023 4 minutes ago, FrazT said: No- in previous years SI have said that because this will be the first release of the full game, there will be no change list from the Beta kind of annoying for all of us playing the Beta and reporting bugs/issues. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalo Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Positional play changes have been nice but noticing some problems when transitioning in a defensive shape. #2, my RB (IWB-S), goes to close down. #30, my CDM, on DM-D, should be holding position (part of the role). I want him to cover for their CAM. Instead, he goes to cover the RB, leaving their CAM open for an easy pass. As my left CB is marking 11, me LB comes to close down. The pass into space for #7 is on here. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedromexico Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, FrazT said: No- in previous years SI have said that because this will be the first release of the full game, there will be no change list from the Beta Surely that not right? So all these problem me with ai and all the interactions with players won’t be fixed when the full game comes out on the 6th? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phnompenhandy Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 31 minutes ago, pedromexico said: Surely that not right? So all these problem me with ai and all the interactions with players won’t be fixed when the full game comes out on the 6th? What Fraz wrote is that there will be no change list - that's always the case. It doesn't mean there will be no changes. I think the point is that there are fewer bug and problems than in any previous beta, but that doesn't mean they'll deliberately keep all the issues in the full release; otherwise, what would be the point of pulling the lever on Nov 6th? Just to give us editors? Nah. Edited October 31, 2023 by phnompenhandy typo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedromexico Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 12 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said: What Fraz wrote is that there will be no change list - that's always the case. It doesn't mean there will be no changes. I think the point is that there are fewer bug and problems than in any previous beta, but that doesn't mean they'll deliberately keep all the issues in the full release; otherwise, what would be the point of pulling the level on Nov 6th? Just to give us editors? Nah. I had no idea what a change list is. Fair enough Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fc.cadoni Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Dynamic TV money in Turkish Superleague is there. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarJ Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 19 hours ago, thejay said: I started with Brighton playing possession style football, won the Europa League in the first season and in the second season came second in the league and I am in the cl final and fa cup final . Even top teams seem to be unable to cope against my possession style setup, I completely dominate almost all games even against top teams which seem unable to attack well . The fact it is easy for you doesn't mean it is easy for everyone. There are 2 youtubers that are playing as Brighton and they almost got sacked. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarJ Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 17 hours ago, greenz81 said: This is my biggest gripe. If the assistant could give us some sort of advice that could help create a picture in my head of why? "Why should i mark that player?" "Why shouldn't I press that player?" "I know we are overcrowded in midfield, what should I do?" The assistant just saying words and stating the obvious is not really 'assisting' if i can see it myself It is not as easy as you think. You as the manager have a picture of how you want to play and although I'm not a game developer I can't see how they will make the AI understand that so they can give you more contextual advice, it's not like they can read minds. It's the same problem with people expecting to go to the datahub and expect the data to be put into context. I might be deliberately allowing the opposition winger to put in crosses because I have 2 or 3 centre backs I expect to win every ball but the game will see it as someone getting free space to cross the ball into the box so it will tell you to tight mark that player. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarJ Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Thalo said: Instead, he goes to cover the RB, leaving their CAM open for an easy pass. As my left CB is marking 11, me LB comes to close down. The pass into space for #7 is on here. this kind of stuff has been in the game for a while, I don't think it's because of the player rotations. I complained last year about one of my fullbacks going to win the ball at the other side of the pitch when 2 centre backs are there in a good position Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenz81 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 7 minutes ago, DarJ said: It is not as easy as you think. You as the manager have a picture of how you want to play and although I'm not a game developer I can't see how they will make the AI understand that so they can give you more contextual advice, it's not like they can read minds. It's the same problem with people expecting to go to the datahub and expect the data to be put into context. I might be deliberately allowing the opposition winger to put in crosses because I have 2 or 3 centre backs I expect to win every ball but the game will see it as someone getting free space to cross the ball into the box so it will tell you to tight mark that player. I want to know the reasoning behind the advice. The AI must have a reason to give the information it has to us. Something must be going on behind the scenes. It wants us to do something. All I want to know is why. It would be like me pointing out it’s raining, but I’m telling you not to go outside, but your reasoning is you have an umbrella, you will be ok, but still I’m telling you, don’t go outside Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwityke1983 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 So has the end of season review that used to come up been removed from the game as I've finished two seasons and not had it trigger either time. Shame if it has and would fly in the face of this being the most complete FM ever... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bestbrother Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 6 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said: So has the end of season review that used to come up been removed from the game as I've finished two seasons and not had it trigger either time. Shame if it has and would fly in the face of this being the most complete FM ever... Had it every time in my saves 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rp1966 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 11 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said: So has the end of season review that used to come up been removed from the game as I've finished two seasons and not had it trigger either time. Shame if it has and would fly in the face of this being the most complete FM ever... Haven't finished a season yet (FM competing for gaming time with Cities: Skylines II this year), but I've seen the end of season summary in a couple of YouTube videos, so should be there. Is your save an imported FM23 one (maybe that's an issue)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phnompenhandy Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 13 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said: So has the end of season review that used to come up been removed from the game as I've finished two seasons and not had it trigger either time. Shame if it has and would fly in the face of this being the most complete FM ever... Nah, you must have clicked past it too fast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
phnompenhandy Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Just now, rp1966 said: Haven't finished a season yet (FM competing for gaming time with Cities: Skylines II this year), but I've seen the end of season summary in a couple of YouTube videos, so should be there. Is your save an imported FM23 one (maybe that's an issue)? Mine's ported over from FM23 - still getting 'em. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrosantos Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Coming this thursday, 8:00pm, you've read it first here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwityke1983 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 3 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said: Nah, you must have clicked past it too fast. You can't click past it, it comes up as a screen you can't click through so fast I'd miss 5 pages of screens to click through! All I got was a here's a newspaper article I found in my inbox. Weird. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mst82 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Please can you have a look at the issue whereby the throw-in take receives a pass immediately after a short throw, deep in the oppo third, and he's offside? I know it happens from time to time but it's literally every time on the game! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwityke1983 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 5 minutes ago, rp1966 said: Haven't finished a season yet (FM competing for gaming time with Cities: Skylines II this year), but I've seen the end of season summary in a couple of YouTube videos, so should be there. Is your save an imported FM23 one (maybe that's an issue)? Nope played as PSG didn't get one and now a South African first division side, didn't get one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fc.cadoni Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Season review has not been removed. Third season in Türkiye with three different teams, no issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwityke1983 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 8 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said: Season review has not been removed. Third season in Türkiye with three different teams, no issues. Well I haven't seen it once. Is there something I've ticked to remove it? With the labyrinth of menus it wouldn't surprise me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rdbayly Posted October 31, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) I've reached the end of my tether with this nonsense. Took over West Ham who were in relegation trouble. Went away to Newcastle who are in a three-way fight for the title. We took the lead but ultimately lost the game (they have signed Osimhen). We had a higher XG than them so I was relatively happy with the overall performance. I decided to reflect this in my post match team talk by choosing the option that says something like 'Don't be too deflated - If we play like that and create as many chances going forward we will get results' (can't recall the exact wording). Everyone reacted with the 'Looked to switch off' response, and then this happens: I guarantee if I'd have gone in hard on them I would be getting a dressing room revolt for being too harsh. This has happened at every club I've managed so far. I am now forced into making a 'promise' that I will improve team talks or lose the entire dressing room. Now I will be walking a tightrope after every match, not knowing what to say as I believe the system is completely broken. I know that choosing a lower reputation is supposed to inject difficulty, but the context and logic string that runs right through the interactions module is the most flawed it has ever been. Edited October 31, 2023 by rdbayly 24 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fc.cadoni Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 5 minutes ago, rdbayly said: I've reached the end of my tether with this nonsense. Took over West Ham who were in relegation trouble. Went away to Newcastle who are in a three-way fight for the title. We took the lead but ultimately lost the game (they have signed Osimhen). We had a higher XG than them so I was relatively happy with the overall performance. I decided to reflect this in my post match team talk by choosing the option that says something like 'Don't be too deflated - If we play like that and create as many chances going forward we will get results' (can't recall the exact wording). Everyone reacted with the 'Looked to switch off' response, and then this happens: I guarantee if I'd have gone in hard on them I would be getting a dressing room revolt for being too harsh. This has happened at every club I've managed so far. I am now forced into making a 'promise' that I will improve team talks or lose the entire dressing room. Now I will be walking a tightrope after every match, not knowing what to say as I believe the system is completely broken. I know that choosing a lower reputation is supposed to inject difficulty, but the context and logic string that runs right through the interactions module is the most flawed it has ever been. Choosing Negative answers or Storm Out can damage a lot of things and be careful when choose it (especially when your Motivating, Media Handling Style are low). From manual: Media Handling This attribute is representative of your dealings with the media: how you interact with journalists, how often you attend press conferences, and whether you keep your players happy with your responses to public questions. Attending press conferences will certainly boost the attribute while delegating them to a member of your backroom staff or storming out of them altogether will see it quickly plateau or even drop. ==== Media answers and narrative is very simple and rule of thumb is not to be negative. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fc.cadoni Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 17 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said: Well I haven't seen it once. Is there something I've ticked to remove it? With the labyrinth of menus it wouldn't surprise me. No idea what happened. Consider to report it and wait for an answer. https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2024-early-access-bugs-tracker/ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dagenham_Dave Posted October 31, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2023 I have a player who has been unhappy for months now at a team talk I gave, and as such his form has fallen off a cliff (thankfully the back up has been sensational since coming in) The context? I'm managing League 1 Stirling Albion, we've been average in the league, but had an amazing run to the semi finals of the Scottish League Cup, where we played Hibs at Hampden. Ultimately, they were too strong, and won 4-2, but we more than matched them for long periods of the game. Afterwards in the team talk I told the players I was proud of their efforts. RED responses from each and every one, and my starting LB has been in the huff about it ever since. There is no universe where this has been coded correctly. It needs fixed. As I've mentioned on this thread before, I've never had any real issue with interactions on any previous FM. For something that was supposed to be tightened up and contextualised more, it's been a massive own goal so far. I'm pretty confident it'll settle down on full release, however. 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdbayly Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 8 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said: Choosing Negative answers or Storm Out can damage a lot of things and be careful when choose it (especially when your Motivating, Media Handling Style are low). From manual: Media Handling This attribute is representative of your dealings with the media: how you interact with journalists, how often you attend press conferences, and whether you keep your players happy with your responses to public questions. Attending press conferences will certainly boost the attribute while delegating them to a member of your backroom staff or storming out of them altogether will see it quickly plateau or even drop. ==== Media answers and narrative is very simple and rule of thumb is not to be negative. No idea what this has to do with my post for the following reasons: I wasn't negative I didn't storm out I was talking to the players not the media But thanks anyway. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fc.cadoni Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Just now, rdbayly said: No idea what this has to do with my post for the following reasons: I wasn't negative I didn't storm out I was talking to the players not the media But thanks anyway. Your response to players from the available Gestures indicates was negative in the past, which players remember it. Even if it's team talk or media interaction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadecane Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, kiwityke1983 said: So has the end of season review that used to come up been removed from the game as I've finished two seasons and not had it trigger either time. Shame if it has and would fly in the face of this being the most complete FM ever... Its not gone at all. I got it when I finished my first season. Maybe u have it so they dont send it to ur inbox? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdbayly Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 minute ago, fc.cadoni said: Your response to players from the available Gestures indicates was negative in the past, which players remember it. Even if it's team talk or media interaction. I've been at the club a week 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadecane Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 45 minutes ago, Mst82 said: Please can you have a look at the issue whereby the throw-in take receives a pass immediately after a short throw, deep in the oppo third, and he's offside? I know it happens from time to time but it's literally every time on the game! Yeah seeing this a lot a lot. Almost like clockwork, everytime, a fk taker or throw in taker gets stranded in CLEAR offside at the byline, they pass it right back to him as if theyre not professional players w a brain. i remember this happening time to time in fm20, 22 and 23, also on very close calls, like it does in real life. But in fm24 im seeing this happen EVERYTIME even if the offside player is clearly offside by a mile and a grandpa with cataracts in row Z can see it. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KamyKaze Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 On the too many goals. Ramsdale had a record Clean sheets season and he only played 16 League games, since I started with Raya Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwityke1983 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 7 minutes ago, Dadecane said: Its not gone at all. I got it when I finished my first season. Maybe u have it so they dont send it to ur inbox? In FM23 it used to just be a screen that appeared a few days after the season finished. Both my PSG and Milford FC saves I've just had nothing apart from an inbox item saying here's the club's records page to click on and the best XI. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Ben Kenney Posted October 31, 2023 SI Staff Share Posted October 31, 2023 13 hours ago, Iakovenko said: Malinkovic Savic was available on a free and chose PSG over me. Signed for them on 14th July and by deadline day of the same window they'd decided he didn't have a long term future and transfer listed him This shouldn't be happening as we have a system in place that stops this behaviour. I've seen a couple of similar reports of this since Early Access release, but it is not something we have picked up internally on our tests. If you happen to have a save game from before the player is listed could you please create a bug report on this forum and we will get it looked into - https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2024-early-access-bugs-tracker/transfers-scouting-contracts-and-agentsintermediaries/ Cheers, Ben 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadecane Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 6 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said: In FM23 it used to just be a screen that appeared a few days after the season finished. Both my PSG and Milford FC saves I've just had nothing apart from an inbox item saying here's the club's records page to click on and the best XI. Strange. Def seems like an isolated bug, maybe upload your save so they can look at it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iakovenko Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Ben Kenney said: This shouldn't be happening as we have a system in place that stops this behaviour. I've seen a couple of similar reports of this since Early Access release, but it is not something we have picked up internally on our tests. If you happen to have a save game from before the player is listed could you please create a bug report on this forum and we will get it looked into - https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2024-early-access-bugs-tracker/transfers-scouting-contracts-and-agentsintermediaries/ Cheers, Ben Unfortunately not, only noticed it on deadline day and we're on a weekly autosave and think it was just over 3 weeks ago he signed for them and we're well in to November now Edited October 31, 2023 by Iakovenko 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post rdbayly Posted October 31, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) Another beauty: I'm informed that Soucek is considering his options at the end of his contract. The conversation goes like this: Me: I thought you were happy here? Him: No I want to leave Me: Oh, I apologise Him: A 'catastrophic drop in morale' and the conversation has 'driven a wedge' between you and Soucek Mate, I've only been here a fortnight. Edited October 31, 2023 by rdbayly 16 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdbayly Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 On the very next screen I'm told the exact opposite and that 'his mind isn't made up yet'. You couldn't make this stuff up 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fc.cadoni Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, rdbayly said: I've been at the club a week If your reputation is lower by players, club; then pick carefully when you speak to them. Especially, when you are new to the club. You have to prove to them that you can handle the team, and best is not interact a lot with them. Like your posts above. Have in mind that each player have their own personality & media handling style and will react differently. And yes, when you come to new club; everyone will question you. You have to prove them the opposite. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdbayly Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 3 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said: If your reputation is lower by players, club; then pick carefully when you speak to them. Especially, when you are new to the club. You have to prove to them that you can handle the team, and best is not interact a lot with them. Like your posts above. Have in mind that each player have their own personality & media handling style and will react differently. And yes, when you come to new club; everyone will question you. You have to prove them the opposite. If you are suggesting that sitting down with a player to explain that you see them as a valued member of the squad should lead to a 'catastrophic drop in morale' then please stop replying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fc.cadoni Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 minute ago, rdbayly said: If you are suggesting that sitting down with a player to explain that you see them as a valued member of the squad should lead to a 'catastrophic drop in morale' then please stop replying. It's better to start understand how the mechanism works. So far, according to your screenshots, you are far away. Try the opposite direction; otherwise you are gonna have a squad to demand to be removed from the position (yes, I have test it this as well). Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahoi Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 I think I've had plenty of hours to say that SI lied to us again. No AI improvement for this version. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars_Blackmon Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 40 minutes ago, rdbayly said: On the very next screen I'm told the exact opposite and that 'his mind isn't made up yet'. You couldn't make this stuff up Not sure I'm following. Considering options and not made up his mind about his future isn't a contradiction in the English language lol. What is your rep? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KamyKaze Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Clubs making offers for a player that has less than 1 month left in his contract. So much for transfers improvements 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars_Blackmon Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 2 hours ago, rdbayly said: I've reached the end of my tether with this nonsense. Took over West Ham who were in relegation trouble. Went away to Newcastle who are in a three-way fight for the title. We took the lead but ultimately lost the game (they have signed Osimhen). We had a higher XG than them so I was relatively happy with the overall performance. I decided to reflect this in my post match team talk by choosing the option that says something like 'Don't be too deflated - If we play like that and create as many chances going forward we will get results' (can't recall the exact wording). Everyone reacted with the 'Looked to switch off' response, and then this happens: I guarantee if I'd have gone in hard on them I would be getting a dressing room revolt for being too harsh. This has happened at every club I've managed so far. I am now forced into making a 'promise' that I will improve team talks or lose the entire dressing room. Now I will be walking a tightrope after every match, not knowing what to say as I believe the system is completely broken. I know that choosing a lower reputation is supposed to inject difficulty, but the context and logic string that runs right through the interactions module is the most flawed it has ever been. or lower rep matters more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iakovenko Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 minute ago, KamyKaze said: Clubs making offers for a player that has less than 1 month left in his contract. So much for transfers improvements Don't you have to pay compensation if you sign young players nearly out of contract? Their offer could be lower than that, just a thought 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdbayly Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 1 hour ago, Mars_Blackmon said: Not sure I'm following. Considering options and not made up his mind about his future isn't a contradiction in the English language lol. What is your rep? You have to combine it with my previous post about the conversation in which he said he wanted to leave, and he was upset that I'd not respected his initial decision. The very next post (minutes later in-game) is him now saying he's not made up his mind. Anyway I've made my point so not going round in circles. I post in here for the developers to read. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kertiek Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 any chance we get a message here for the date an injured player resumes full training? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars_Blackmon Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 21 minutes ago, rdbayly said: You have to combine it with my previous post about the conversation in which he said he wanted to leave, and he was upset that I'd not respected his initial decision. The very next post (minutes later in-game) is him now saying he's not made up his mind. Anyway I've made my point so not going round in circles. I post in here for the developers to read. developers read bugs in the bug report section. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunk105 Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 2 hours ago, rdbayly said: I've reached the end of my tether with this nonsense. Took over West Ham who were in relegation trouble. Went away to Newcastle who are in a three-way fight for the title. We took the lead but ultimately lost the game (they have signed Osimhen). We had a higher XG than them so I was relatively happy with the overall performance. I decided to reflect this in my post match team talk by choosing the option that says something like 'Don't be too deflated - If we play like that and create as many chances going forward we will get results' (can't recall the exact wording). Everyone reacted with the 'Looked to switch off' response, and then this happens: I guarantee if I'd have gone in hard on them I would be getting a dressing room revolt for being too harsh. This has happened at every club I've managed so far. I am now forced into making a 'promise' that I will improve team talks or lose the entire dressing room. Now I will be walking a tightrope after every match, not knowing what to say as I believe the system is completely broken. I know that choosing a lower reputation is supposed to inject difficulty, but the context and logic string that runs right through the interactions module is the most flawed it has ever been. Realise why you wouldnt, but tbh I just tell them to f**k off as always seems to be my fringe or young players nagging. Also worth save scumming here, as sometimes you will find if you're established and successful that they will back down. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPompey Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 8 hours ago, StephenG said: will we get a log of things they change for the full release? No, the release next week will be the first official release version. Maybe confirmation of changes if made for subsequent updates after that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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