Pointless improving youth setp

[wazzaflow10]

4 hours ago, forameuss said:

Pin this to the top of the thread in big letters.  Now you can argue that this is a game and it shouldn't reflect real life (the age old FM argument of "this isn't realistic/it shouldn't be realistic, it's a game"), but the way it works now is probably more generous than it could be if we were being truly realistic.  Fag-packet calculations, but based on the above, if you're at an EPL club in FM, you would expect that in a series of 6 intakes (to cover for your 21 to 26 range), you would get 3 players (out of 96) that would be considered good enough to make an EPL appearance.  And you'd probably say that "good enough for the EPL" star-wise is, what, 2.5?  And people are expecting to see 4 or 5 star players regularly?  Aye, ok then.

The issue of having more than expected is talent inflation and that would break the game long term as there would be too many good players. Transfers would stagnate entirely if every team could consistently build from youth prospects. Of all things in the game this should mirror real life the most as it has the most impact on player development and transfers. Getting a 16 year old wonderkid via youth squad should be a rare event. People expecting to be handed Messi simply because they have good facilities is unrealistic.

[JimmysTheBestCop]

Long term it is kinda broken already that's one of the reasons there is a realism mod. 

Sim out 30-40 years. Even if you aren't playing in England the number of wonderkids produced is staggering. 

Worldwide and elite talent can drop as much as 20-30%

Again a lot has to do with game importance negating nations who have >80 youth rating. 

These types of issues will be magnified now that import saves is a thing. 

Imagine playing 150 years on a 3rd imported version save. I have zero confidence the mechanics of the game can handle it unmodded. 

It cannot really handle after 30 years now

Edited November 28, 2023 by JimmysTheBestCop

[trviggo]

8 hours ago, forameuss said:

And people are expecting to see 4 or 5 star players regularly?

I imagine part of the problem is that if these players were Brazilian regens they would be 4-5 stars regularly. Coaching reports always seem to underrate youth intakes so you kinda have to sign em all and wait a season to get an equal assessment of them. I don't quite get why either. It's not like the 5 star wonderkids you sign at 16 are guaranteed to become good. Most of them turn out to be 3-4 stars. Why are your own academy graduates measured differently? 

If simply the odd 3 and 4 star player were estimated at 5 stars on intake day, so many of these complaints would go away. 

[enigmatic]

10 minutes ago, trviggo said:

I imagine part of the problem is that if these players were Brazilian regens they would be 4-5 stars regularly. Coaching reports always seem to underrate youth intakes so you kinda have to sign em all and wait a season to get an equal assessment of them. I don't quite get why either. It's not like the 5 star wonderkids you sign at 16 are guaranteed to become good. Most of them turn out to be 3-4 stars. Why are your own academy graduates measured differently? 

If simply the odd 3 and 4 star player were estimated at 5 stars on intake day, so many of these complaints would go away. 

The odd three and four star player is estimated at 5 stars on intake day though (I think if anything the intake estimates in FM24 have more margin for error than other recent FMs). More if your club's first XI isn't unusually good for your level (it's a bold youth team coach that's predicting they've got someone as good as Haaland in their ranks). 

The Brazilian newgens you scout generally are better than your average intake newgen though. Partly because the country of Brazil produces a lot of elite players, certainly more than an individual club, partly because your scouts don't waste time scouting continents for 1* potential whereas your local scouts fill your academy with them, partly because SI doesn't waste database space generating dozens of rubbish Brazilians for every half decent one unless you load their leagues, and partly because by the time you normally scout and sign the Brazilians they're usually 18 or thereabouts and showing some signs of growth

But that goes for real life too: far more Premier League clubs would have known about Vinicius Junior than had an equally talented kid in their own ranks. And scouts should be more likely to overestimate players they've only seen impress in a few games than coaches who have watched how the players develop since a young age.

[trviggo]

4 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

The odd three and four star player is estimated at 5 stars on intake day though (I think if anything the intake estimates in FM24 have more margin for error than other recent FMs). More if your club's first XI isn't unusually good for your level (it's a bold youth team coach that's predicting they've got someone as good as Haaland in their ranks). 

The Brazilian newgens you scout generally are better than your average intake newgen though. Partly because the country of Brazil produces a lot of elite players, certainly more than an individual club, partly because your scouts don't waste time scouting continents for 1* potential whereas your local scouts fill your academy with them, partly because SI doesn't waste database space generating dozens of rubbish Brazilians for every half decent one unless you load their leagues, and partly because by the time you normally scout and sign the Brazilians they're usually 18 or thereabouts and showing some signs of growth

But that goes for real life too: far more Premier League clubs would have known about Vinicius Junior than had an equally talented kid in their own ranks. And scouts should be more likely to overestimate players they've only seen impress in a few games than coaches who have watched how the players develop since a young age.

Can't really say anything to counter that except it's not my experience. I do play Build a Nation though so my club's first eleven typically is too good for the level. Anytime I do get a 4-5 star player in the youth intake they are that level. But so is a handful of the 3 star players I get. The majority of 5 star players I bring in from elsewhere however is not. There's definitely a difference in coaching reports and scouting reports beyond just staff attributes. 

[RandomGuy.]

23 hours ago, forameuss said:

Pin this to the top of the thread in big letters.  Now you can argue that this is a game and it shouldn't reflect real life (the age old FM argument of "this isn't realistic/it shouldn't be realistic, it's a game"), but the way it works now is probably more generous than it could be if we were being truly realistic.  Fag-packet calculations, but based on the above, if you're at an EPL club in FM, you would expect that in a series of 6 intakes (to cover for your 21 to 26 range), you would get 3 players (out of 96) that would be considered good enough to make an EPL appearance.  And you'd probably say that "good enough for the EPL" star-wise is, what, 2.5?  And people are expecting to see 4 or 5 star players regularly?  Aye, ok then.

I do wonder if star ratings should go.

Instead of seeing a 2.5* player, you see text saying they predict he'll be a squad player, and so on.

Its already there but its ignored because of the stars, i think.

[Jimbokav1971]

On 25/11/2023 at 17:15, potts9917 said:

6 years in and...

There is of course a certain amount of randomness involved, but what I would say is don't believe the alphabetical ratings and certainly don't believe the star ratings. 

If you really want to test if this is working, (or not), then you need to be comparing the CA and PA of players actually coming through the intake. 

I haven't seen reputation mentioned in this thread, (apologies if I've missed it), and that's of HUGE significance.

If I was you and I was seriously concerned about this I would save now and run a holiday experiment to the next youth intake 10 times and then use the editor to look at what's possible in terms of players actually coming through, (with actual CA PA numbers), and then maybe go on 2 years holidaying to see what 10 lots of intakes 2 years away looks like. It will either tell you that there isn't a problem and that you have just been unlucky, or it will suggest that you need to investigate more. 

As @forameussand others have mentioned though, any upgrades don't act as an immediate fix. I'm playing a Youth Only save and if the intake are rubbish then they are rubbish. There will be another one along in 12 months time and if they're rubbish then they're will be another along in 12 months time etc etc etc

[wazzaflow10]

19 hours ago, JimmysTheBestCop said:

Long term it is kinda broken already that's one of the reasons there is a realism mod. 

Sim out 30-40 years. Even if you aren't playing in England the number of wonderkids produced is staggering. 

Worldwide and elite talent can drop as much as 20-30%

Again a lot has to do with game importance negating nations who have >80 youth rating. 

These types of issues will be magnified now that import saves is a thing. 

Imagine playing 150 years on a 3rd imported version save. I have zero confidence the mechanics of the game can handle it unmodded. 

It cannot really handle after 30 years now

There's numerous posts about when you set up the database it affects where newgens get produced and the balance of the save. Simming 30-40 years with a bad set up with net you bad results.

Is SI infalliable? Absolutely not. There's been plenty of mistakes regarding development and attribute distribution. However, there's also a large number of players who simply don't load the game correctly (either by choice or unknowingly) or do things SI never intended to be done or just simply purposely edit the game with something unrealistic and complain when the game gives them something unrealistic back. Manchester City has had 15 years of pouring unlimited money into the team they have one player that is making an large impact on their team in Phil Foden. Cole Palmer is maybe someone you could argue but they sold him because Halaand is better (also pretending like they're FFP compliant too). But thats it. People on here are expecting to get Messi every year because they upgraded. Guess what there's 19 other PL teams and 24 Championship team trying to find the best youth players too! Jude Bellingham came up through Birmingham when they were in the Championship. Facilities just increase your chances of getting a wonderkid but its not a guarantee.

[Dagenham_Dave]

6 hours ago, wazzaflow10 said:

However, there's also a large number of players who simply don't load the game correctly (either by choice or unknowingly) or do things SI never intended to be done or just simply purposely edit the game with something unrealistic and complain when the game gives them something unrealistic back. 

Another post that should be pinned somewhere! 

 

[tezcatlipoca665]

4 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Another post that should be pinned somewhere! 

 

Or included within the games instructions.

Where it should be.

[Rashidi]

5 hours ago, tezcatlipoca665 said:

Or included within the games instructions.

Where it should be.

Why? Thanks but no thanks. If I need handholding and instructions for every feature of this game, it loses any challenge. Personally I derive more joy through discovery. 

[XaW]

6 hours ago, tezcatlipoca665 said:

Or included within the games instructions.

Where it should be.

That depends on what you want from the game. I think the game should be a bit hidden, otherwise people will just min-max it and then complain it's too easy...

[trviggo]

If it requires "handholding" to setup the game correctly the game has some serious accessibility issues. 

[forameuss]

3 minutes ago, trviggo said:

If it requires "handholding" to setup the game correctly the game has some serious accessibility issues. 

When "correct" is entirely subjective, then this is just making something up to get angry about.   if there was an objectively correct way, they'd just make that the default and be done with it.  The beauty of the world they've created in-game is that you can set it up however you want, because everyone has a different definition of ideal.

Edited November 30, 2023 by forameuss

[trviggo]

35 minutes ago, forameuss said:

When "correct" is entirely subjective, then this is just making something up to get angry about.   if there was an objectively correct way, they'd just make that the default and be done with it.  The beauty of the world they've created in-game is that you can set it up however you want, because everyone has a different definition of ideal.

Well that depends what @wazzaflow10 is referring to, but there's still elements that undoubtably is unnecessarily permanent and potentially damaging to a save, such as attribute masking and IGE settings. What good reason is there for these to not just be general settings? Just yesterday I had my Champions League playoff registration day be after the first game leaving me with 0 registered players for it. I couldn't even have paid to get this issue mitigated had I not set up my save "correctly" in the first place. 

I've spent five game editions and thousands of hours trying to build the perfect Build a Nation database because there's just no information readily available about basic game systems and the pre-game editor. Upon requesting help on this very forum I've had SI staff such as Neil Brock post information I've since discovered is false. Bug reports have been humoured as real issues instead of just telling me it was a setting in the editor. Seb Wassell stated "Professionalism, Ambition and Determination matters equally for player development", which has been extensively disproven every year since. Then there was the infamous Miles announcement of Dynamic Youth Rating that was gonna be huge for players like myself, and it took immeasurable outrage to get some clarity on the situation. Requiring you to setup every nation to have a game importance of very Important and being a developed nation for this "feature" to even be measurable. For FM24 they announced dynamic and new income streams, which seemingly there is just no evidence for whatsoever existing in the game.  Thankfully the dynamic youth rating sham made me skeptical enough of this announcement that I spent hours testing if it was a thing before jumping into a save. That is a completely unreasonable ask of the player base.

Once you're in the save game you want to play, then fair enough, keep your secrets. Make me explore. But there's zero excuses for not helping players get to that point in the first place. 10 reasonable questions answered honestly and I would've gotten the save I wanted already back in FM19. We're on FM24 now and I still won't know if my setup is my definition of ideal until I've put 20+ seasons in it. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by trviggo

[trviggo]

28 minutes ago, trviggo said:

Bug reports have been humoured as real issues instead of just telling me it was a setting in the editor.

I gotta laugh at the timing, but brilliantly demonstrated by @XaW here by referring OP to bug reports and locking a thread that could be answered in a much more helpful manner as it is not a bug and something that can be adjusted in game setup. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by trviggo

[mikcheck]

Em 23/11/2023 em 10:44, forameuss disse:

Do some people really want the quality of youth to just be some function of three numbers with the biggest number always producing once-in-a-generation style players?  Not only would that be highly unrealistic, wouldn't it also make the game pretty tedious?  Thousands of clubs in the game, but nah, let's just make sure only the top ones produce anything because big number is big.

Couldn't agree more with this. Even I have all the best facilities/coaches/personalities, I wouldn't want that. I love that fact that once in a very while I have that wonderkid and mold him. That brings me joy to play the game,

[XaW]

4 minutes ago, trviggo said:

I gotta laugh at the timing, but brilliantly demonstrated by @XaW here by referring OP to bug reports and locking a thread that could be answered in a much more helpful manner as it is not a bug and something that can be adjusted in game setup. 

Did you read that thread? I mean, I'm all for being helpful, but when a user asserts there is "mistakes" in the game and uses that tone referenced, I ask them to report bugs if they think they have one. If any user comes in with a question asked I'd happily provide a long and substantial answer, as I normally do when I spot it.

But well done, on going for a "gotcha" moment. Not sure you stuck the landing though.

[phnompenhandy]

@trviggo

Just a suggestion, mate. I get your frustration in putting in umpteen hours to set up a save that's flawed. With something like a "Build a Nation" challenge, why not spend some time watching a YouTube series by someone who's been doing that. You might get some tips, and if he runs into a bug or somesuch, you get forewarned and maybe learn how to circumvent it.

[trviggo]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

Did you read that thread? I mean, I'm all for being helpful, but when a user asserts there is "mistakes" in the game and uses that tone referenced, I ask them to report bugs if they think they have one. If any user comes in with a question asked I'd happily provide a long and substantial answer, as I normally do when I spot it.

But well done, on going for a "gotcha" moment. Not sure you stuck the landing though.

The problem is that @Szyminator is now led to believe - by an official on SI's own forum - that this issue is out of their hands and they can't get the game experience they want when that is incorrect. Instead of kindly telling them that they can adjust player valuation biases in the pre-game editor. By locking the thread you've also prevented me or anyone else that wanna help from doing it as well. That's all I wanna do really. I have no care for trying to "get you", whatever you're implying by that. 

16 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

@trviggo

Just a suggestion, mate. I get your frustration in putting in umpteen hours to set up a save that's flawed. With something like a "Build a Nation" challenge, why not spend some time watching a YouTube series by someone who's been doing that. You might get some tips, and if he runs into a bug or somesuch, you get forewarned and maybe learn how to circumvent it.

That makes up a lot of the hours I've spent. Just this previous week I think it was I discovered Second Yellow Card on YouTube and learned we (or his editor guy) have a lot of the same solutions, and that made me feel better about them because 30+ season saves of testing are hard to come by. Another member on here I wish I remembered the name of now was how I learned to setup dynamic income. I don't mean to sound like I haven't enjoyed that process or the saves I've played. That's why I'm invested enough to still do this. The most frustrating bits is when there is a clear and concise answer as above and you get derailed by unproductive ones. 

[JimmysTheBestCop]

2 hours ago, XaW said:

That depends on what you want from the game. I think the game should be a bit hidden, otherwise people will just min-max it and then complain it's too easy...

I don't think you actually know what min-max actually means. 

It is derived from tabletop DnD sessions and brought over cRPG games where certain classes could dump 1 attribute/stat and focus on another. Or universal charisma modifier not needed. Fighters not needdung int or Wis. 

So many gamers get min-max wrong. You actually need to minimize 1 thing for another thing to be maximized. 

It is near impossible to min max fm. What can you minimize? Staff, reserves, youth, transfer budget and dump it into salary?

Fm doesn't have many sliders or anything for us to actually change. Or a thing to minimize that allows us to maximize something us. 

Knowing how to play a game can be labeled as playing optimally or effeciently. 

Optimally/effeciently does not equal min-max. 

Another example of min max would be a glass Cannon magic user. He sacrifices hp and defense to get the highest damage attack possible. 

This CANNOT be done in fm. 

Yes nearly all cRPGs, trpgs and turn based tactical games players know how the entire system. It does not remove enjoyment or fun or challenge for the normal player. If a player wants to lookuo guides that's on the player. Just like a fm player can look up guides or use the editor. 

SI needs transparency because version after version of implementing new mechanics typically ends either in it not working like the community thinks it will, not having a big enough impact or just not working. 

Most Recent Examples:

Dynamic youth rating

Dynamic tv money 

J league 

But honestly I could list nearly every mechanic. Transparency and open communication is 2 things Si just isn't good at. 

It's absolutely ridiculous the modding community or the content creation community has to be spend hundreds of hours testing to see if Si mechanics work, how they work, if they work what do they actually accomplish. 

This has nothing to do with secret formulas or game design. Any games code can be extracted and reversed engineered by any other developer house. So tired of hearing that listed as an excuse when it's blatantly not true. 

If Fm is the only video game you play every year. I suggest going and buying a half to full dozen every year and actually learn and pay attention to how the video game market developers and community actually act in present day.

Si's setup, transparency and communication is archaic. No dev does games in silence. 

Especially Indy devs which Si likes to get compared to even though they are a subsidiary of Sega. 

It's very apparent that Fm is the only game many posters and defenders play each year. 

[XaW]

1 minute ago, JimmysTheBestCop said:

I don't think you actually know what min-max actually means. 

It is derived from tabletop DnD sessions and brought over cRPG games where certain classes could dump 1 attribute/stat and focus on another. Or universal charisma modifier not needed. Fighters not needdung int or Wis. 

So many gamers get min-max wrong. You actually need to minimize 1 thing for another thing to be maximized. 

As someone who has played DnD for about 20 years, yes, I am familiar with it, though I have't played much the last few years. I used it here in the way many describe it for computer games, where you can dump (or rather ignore) parts while making others more prominent.

3 minutes ago, JimmysTheBestCop said:

It is near impossible to min max fm. What can you minimize? Staff, reserves, youth, transfer budget and dump it into salary?

Fm doesn't have many sliders or anything for us to actually change. Or a thing to minimize that allows us to maximize something us. 

Knowing how to play a game can be labeled as playing optimally or effeciently. 

Optimally/effeciently does not equal min-max. 

Of course you can min-max FM if you know exactly what impact everything has. If you *know* acceleration is far better than pace in 90% of sprinting duels in the match, you can ignore pace when recruiting players, as a very small example. Min-maxing can often be very close to abusing exploits, in fact many places min-maxing has caused the developer to change things to avoid it being exploited, that even has happened in DnD because min-max'ers has found loopholes. Why on earth would we want MORE of that in FM?

7 minutes ago, JimmysTheBestCop said:

Another example of min max would be a glass Cannon magic user. He sacrifices hp and defense to get the highest damage attack possible. 

This CANNOT be done in fm. 

Yes nearly all cRPGs, trpgs and turn based tactical games players know how the entire system. It does not remove enjoyment or fun or challenge for the normal player. If a player wants to lookuo guides that's on the player. Just like a fm player can look up guides or use the editor. 

Of course you can't directly translate RPG examples into FM, but you can get the idea of min-maxing still. FM still has many points that allow users to know things, like the editor you mentioned, to peak behind the curtain, but the deeper game mechanics, such as the ME is not available to anyone to look at the finer details. That's the difference.

9 minutes ago, JimmysTheBestCop said:

SI needs transparency because version after version of implementing new mechanics typically ends either in it not working like the community thinks it will, not having a big enough impact or just not working. 

Most Recent Examples:

Dynamic youth rating

Dynamic tv money 

J league 

But honestly I could list nearly every mechanic. Transparency and open communication is 2 things Si just isn't good at. 

It's absolutely ridiculous the modding community or the content creation community has to be spend hundreds of hours testing to see if Si mechanics work, how they work, if they work what do they actually accomplish. 

This has nothing to do with secret formulas or game design. Any games code can be extracted and reversed engineered by any other developer house. So tired of hearing that listed as an excuse when it's blatantly not true. 

If Fm is the only video game you play every year. I suggest going and buying a half to full dozen every year and actually learn and pay attention to how the video game market developers and community actually act in present day.

Si's setup, transparency and communication is archaic. No dev does games in silence. 

Especially Indy devs which Si likes to get compared to even though they are a subsidiary of Sega. 

It's very apparent that Fm is the only game many posters and defenders play each year. 

If you are talking about more communication with users, then I'm all for it, and I wish SI would be more distinct in what language they use when describing new features to make sure people actually understand what they entail. Take DYR as an example, I also misunderstood what that would do when it came a few years ago, and was equally disappointed when I saw how it worked. But when I revisited what SI had said, it was a single tweet by Miles saying that youth rating was now dynamic, there are no marketing about it, no grand announcement, and it was NOT part of the "major changes" blogs or anything, it was only one tweet. And the community hyped it up from there, so while I understand why people were disappointed in it, I don't think that's much of an example.

Dynamic TV money is in the game, and I don't know what any issue is there. I've seen it change in my saves in a few countries, so if there are issues, I've not encountered them. So I can't comment more on that. The J-League, I agree with.

I do want SI to be more transparent of how things flow, and I think we've seen more of it in the recent years, but I still think they have some ways to go before it is at the level that I want. There will be certain things they can't, or shouldn't, disclose in my view, but openness with the community as a whole is something I hope they continue to improve upon.

So I think you have some points, but you do seem very argumentative and combative in the way you put them forward. Things are not always as black or white as you portray them as in many of your posts here. Being direct is one thing, but if you really want your point to come across to others, bringing doom and gloom into every post might not be the best way of expressing yourself.

[tezcatlipoca665]

6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Why? Thanks but no thanks. If I need handholding and instructions for every feature of this game, it loses any challenge. Personally I derive more joy through discovery. 

Then don't read the instructions when they're made available then?

[enigmatic]

6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Why? Thanks but no thanks. If I need handholding and instructions for every feature of this game, it loses any challenge. Personally I derive more joy through discovery. 

I'm not sure "set up a game balanced for long term gameplay" falls into the 'joy of discovery' thing

 

 

A more generally I think SI's approach to keeping what a lot of stuff actually means obscure has the opposite effect: people want to know what a feature does and end up finding out from a third party site that tells them not to worry about it because they can download this tactic that breaks the match engine instead...

[wazzaflow10]

4 hours ago, trviggo said:

Well that depends what @wazzaflow10 is referring to, but there's still elements that undoubtably is unnecessarily permanent and potentially damaging to a save, such as attribute masking and IGE settings. What good reason is there for these to not just be general settings?

My guess is so that more computers can run the game and you're not sitting for 15 minutes waiting for a day to process (i.e. deadline days or update days). Not many machines can handle loading every playable nation and league with added league mods and 200k-300k players for a perfectly balanced world that mimics real life and keep the game playable. I agree it would be incredibly helpful if SI gave more instructions on how to set up a world based on your objective or provide presets like they do for tactics.

But the main idea I think is so that more people can play the game even if its just a single nation as to why there's no single default world.

[trviggo]

43 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

My guess is so that more computers can run the game and you're not sitting for 15 minutes waiting for a day to process (i.e. deadline days or update days). Not many machines can handle loading every playable nation and league with added league mods and 200k-300k players for a perfectly balanced world that mimics real life and keep the game playable. I agree it would be incredibly helpful if SI gave more instructions on how to set up a world based on your objective or provide presets like they do for tactics.

But the main idea I think is so that more people can play the game even if its just a single nation as to why there's no single default world.

TIL enabling the editor does that. 

[wazzaflow10]

2 hours ago, trviggo said:

TIL enabling the editor does that. 

Enabling the editor does what?

[Tfunk]

On 22/11/2023 at 19:33, Dagenham_Dave said:

Gotta love it when someone tries to cheat the game and it doesn't work 

Shows you how bad the game is.

[Dagenham_Dave]

22 minutes ago, Tfunk said:

Shows you how bad the game is.

It really doesn't, but thanks for your contribution. Will read again. 

[Jimbokav1971]

13 hours ago, Tfunk said:

Shows you how bad the game is.

That's 1 explanation, but another might be that the OP, (and others),  doesn't fully understand how some of the game mechanics work.

[Jimbokav1971]

I'm managing in a Nation in FM24 that I have never managed before, (Colombia), and I was attracted to this particular club because of it's good facilities, (which I improved still further). 

Here are the intakes I have had so far in the save.

I haven't got a screenshot for the 1st intake so this will have to do, (but you get the idea). 

2nd intake. 

3rd intake. 

4th intake. 

5th intake. 

6th intake. 

7th intake.

8th intake. 

9th intake. 

10th intake. 

Now I think you would agree that what I have shown you is 10 consistently good intakes, (at least in terms of PA rating), at a club who although they have really good infrastructure, were nowhere near the top rep teams in Colombia and indeed only just prior to the 10th intake did they become the highest rep team. 

Part of the "problem" here is that because I'm doing a Youth Only save, (and especially at the start of the save), the CA of my players were really poor. As a result of this, the players coming through the intake look really great, but they only look so great because the level against which they are being judged is so poor. 

Compare that to your Southampton side, who I think you mentioned you got promoted from the Championship in the 1st season and for whom you have presumably brought some very good players. It's quite possible that you have managed to sign some wonderkids who have developed into worldclass players so your youth intakes might be being judged against some of the best players in the World, (which is very different to my situation). 

So I tell you what, I will create a new save and I will take over as Southampton and I will holiday until the 1st Youth Intake and then I will show you what I get, (without changing anything in the Editor and without asking for any facility upgrades or anything like that. 

I won't buy any players, (but I will also be on holiday so no idea what the owner will do), and assuming I'm still in the job when the intake arrives we will have a look. You will have to take into consideration that SOuthampton are in the Championship in this 1st season and as a result their rep will have taken a hit, but let's give it a go anyway, (just for the hell of it). #

I can't remember if you said you were just looking at the Day 1 CA/PA star ratings and judging your intakes on that, or if you were looking at actual CA PA numerical ratings, so while the game holidays I will try and go back and read some of your posts again. 

ohhhhhh.  I see in 1 of your posts at least that you are judging your youth intake by the youth intake preview. Now that absolutely 100% is broken, (at least it was in the Beta), and it has never worked properly since it was introduced. They fixed some of the issues with that 1st patch, but my advice in FM24, (and previous issues), is to just completely ignore the Youth Intake preview. I'm happy to defend the game as a whole but also quite happy to point out when things don't work as intended. The Youth Intake preview is just a complete waste of my time and your time and I've already spent too much time talking about it. Ignore it. Completely. 

(Just to talk about it for a tiny tiny tiny tiny bit more, I'm of the opinion that the alphabet rating in the preview relates to CA and the 5.0 star rating to the right relates to PA, but this is something that I'm just starting to form an opinion on and is absolutely NOT a statement of fact so please don't take it as gospel. Just think about it when you look at it in future and then think about it when you then get to the intake. Anyway, ignore the preview. 

ps. poached players is broken too. 

Haha. I've just had the pop-up that we have gone unbeaten for 20 matches, (while holidaying).  Looks like I don't have to worry about me getting sacked while on holiday.

There have been some good posts in this thread by the likes of @JAwtunes @forameuss @XaW and I really liked the quoted tweet from @RandomGuy.who I think completely nails it. FOr the most part, the issue with any intake is one of our expectation being too high rather than anything else. When you play a long-term Youth Only save you tend to get pretty relaxed about the quality of intakes strangely, because it doesn't actually matter. You just play with what you get. If they are rubbish you will bin them off and if they are great then a bigger team will come and nick them off you.

Damn. We've got to the intake day and I haven't even had my coffee yet! 

Anyway, here is it. I personally don't particularly like this intake because Pearce and Mustoe have Det levels of 3 and 5, (but that's just me). I love the Nationalities and the overall personalities are reasonable. We've just been a little unlucky with 2 of the top PA players.

I'd say it's decent, but we're basing it on the stars so we actually don't know if they are any good if truth be told. 

So let's use the IGE to test what the PA of these players actually is. 

Do you see what I mean about the star ratings? 

The CA/PA doesn't actually mean anything in isolation though, so let's compare the PA of this intake to those of the players already at the club, and that way you can judge for yourself what sort of level of player they are. 

So that we don't spoil this for those who don't want to know what the PA of the existing Southampton players are, I will hide it in a spoiler. 

Spoiler

I think this actually looks like a pretty decent Southampton level intake. 

When we rank the whole squad by PA, there are no less than 4 players who make the 1st page. 

To put this into some sort of perspective...... there are 9 (NINE) players in this intake with a PA of 120+. That's not a good intake. That's a great intake. 

When you add in that Southampton aren't in the Premier league here, they're in the Championship, it's even more astonishing. 

To give you an idea of how good a 120 CA player is, (so you know how good the 9th best player in this intake might become).... there is only 1 single player in my (small) databse, with a CA of 120 who plays in England but lower than the Championship. 

So effectively, this intake has produced 9 different players who's level is at least that of the Championship, (based on their PA). 

I would suggest that either you have been really unlucky or you have broken something while mucking about with the Editor. 

There is lots of stuff wrong with the game, (for example the Youth Intake preview), but developing players via an Academy once you know what you are doing is not one of them. 

[AndrikoDS]

The Youth Challenge thread completely blows away any idea that developing youth is pointless in this game. If anything it is too easy - the class of '92 was a freak occurrence that doesn't happen very often, and as someone has pointed out in this thread, it is incredibly rare any youth players in any academy will ever be anything other that a future sports coach or something. If they manage to get a few years in the Vanerama regionals, they were probably the most successful kid in their class. 

On 30/11/2023 at 10:03, trviggo said:

If it requires "handholding" to setup the game correctly the game has some serious accessibility issues. 

On 30/11/2023 at 09:36, XaW said:

That depends on what you want from the game. I think the game should be a bit hidden, otherwise people will just min-max it and then complain it's too easy...

To follow on to this discussion, I play the game on and off over years, and don't follow actually football, so there is a lot of I have to learn or relearn every time I start a save. A proper explanation of what I am doing when setting up the game world is not handholding, and is definitely not something I want to 'discover'. It is not clear at all what would make a 'balanced' game world, or one that would suit a long term LLM save or whatever. I've heard that having a database that's too large just causes a glut of players and destroys the transfer market, on the other hand having a database that is too small will ramp up everyone's price. But what is a large or small database anyway? Does that mean total number of players, or whether I have chosen the 'large database' option? Is it players per team loaded etc. etc.

Stuff like this should be better explained, especially by this point when the game is over 30 years old.

Edited December 1, 2023 by AndrikoDS

[forameuss]

If any particular database setting "destroyed" any component of the game, then it wouldn't be something available to be selected.  Different setups will give different experiences, and those experiences are going to be highly subjective.  Hence why there isn't just a default setting that's forced on everyone.