What's better for a young prospect....

[Ganders]

Being loaned to a non active league and just generated random stats by the game engine? Or playing in a competitive Under 21/Under18/B team League where he gets a weekly real game?

I have young players who want to go out on loan but i think they'd be better off in the under 21s getting regular games rather than a top flight Bulgarian team that isn't loaded into the game.

[Vali184]

They will develop if they will play most of the games for them. I would send the on loan especially if they will be important players and play good games obviously.

[FrazT]

I would always send a prospect to a team that is offering him a regular meaningful game

[Ganders]

Thanks for the replies but my question was more what's a more meaningful game? A weekly run out in an active under 21s league or loaned to a team who's league isn't loaded into the database and the games are just 'imaginary'?

I completely agree that he's better off loaned out say, to a French second division team when I have the French leagues loaded for example.

[FrazT]

I would send him to an active league every time

[fc.cadoni]

From manual:

- Playing time

A player with greater exposure to meaningful playing time will develop better than someone who isn’t playing quite as often. Playing first-team minutes is more valuable than playing reserve or youth team football, and a young player who stagnates from their teenage years into their 20s without starting to play regular football stands a higher chance of not being able to reach their potential.

 

[Cloud9]

15 hours ago, Ganders said:

Being loaned to a non active league and just generated random stats by the game engine? Or playing in a competitive Under 21/Under18/B team League where he gets a weekly real game?

I have young players who want to go out on loan but i think they'd be better off in the under 21s getting regular games rather than a top flight Bulgarian team that isn't loaded into the game.

You want them in youth team setups before they're 18, after 18 give them game time (but not overly so). Nothing hampers a players growth more than overplaying. To answer your other question, a player who is 18 and not receiving first team football (w/you or out on loan) will not develop well and can struggle to meet his potential (leaving them to train in the u23 is a poor idea).

Loans are always second best to giving them the game time yourself. The training, mentorship and general personality of the squad are important for any young player who you think highly of. 

If you do loan them out, look at the squads general personality and training facilities available.

• I emphasize training facilities, as these are super important to a players development. If your club lacks strong infrastructure in this department, a loan to a club that has excellent training faciltiies maybe in fact be preferable. 
• You also want them in an environment where they can play well and ensure good ratings (a relegation threatened club can be a difficult environment to grow in). In general, signing players just to loan out can be a bit of a trap, I've mostly used loans on academy kids who I don't want to sell (because academy kids ) and I think are a season of development away from being rotation options to the first team. 

FM24 has a different curve for develop (not as influenced by turning 23 as on previous versions), but the 18-20 years are where a player will do a lot of growing. Technicals (and physicals although these are somewhat inherent and can be capped) are harder to develop later in that curve, so keeping a player around the first team to work on them immediately (post 18) can be hugely beneficial. Mental attributes can continue to mature as the player does, especially if he holds high PA and a strong personality.

On personality: you're looking for a cocktail of Ambition, Professionalism, and Determination for development. Check their media handling to get a better indicator of those values.

Edited June 1 by Cloud9

[Feddo]

Check the 'evidence based football manager' channel on YouTube, he has done an episode about whats the best option.

He will run loads of simulations of different scenario's and discusses the results.

[Cloud9]

2 hours ago, Feddo said:

Check the 'evidence based football manager' channel on YouTube, he has done an episode about whats the best option.

He will run loads of simulations of different scenario's and discusses the results.

I would take those videos with a grain of salt on their findings. Frequently those tests are incomplete and offer misleading results (if I remember it was things like, "determination doesn't matter, condition doesn't matter, or happiness doesn't impact development" and other claims like this. These tests cherry pick variables while discounting key ones in their findings, which leads to skewed results. In reality attributes like Determination are just as important for development as Professionalism and Ambition.

• I would strongly recommend using SI as a measure of how the game actually works. Here is the link to the FM24 Manual at the top of the forums:

https://community.sports-interactive.com/sigames-manual/football-manager-2024/

Here are several highly credible voices on the forums going into detail on the incomplete nature of those tests and the "conclusions" they draw:

Edited June 1 by Cloud9

[Feddo]

Thanks for those links!

To prove you're own point, one of is findings was that determination is an important part of player development.

 

[Feddo]

10 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

You want them in youth team setups before they're 18, after 18 give them game time (but not overly so). Nothing hampers a players growth more than overplaying. To answer your other question, a player who is 18 and not receiving first team football (w/you or out on loan) will not develop well and can struggle to meet his potential (leaving them to train in the u23 is a poor idea).

Loans are always second best to giving them the game time yourself. The training, mentorship and general personality of the squad are important for any young player who you think highly of. 

If you do loan them out, look at the squads general personality and training facilities available.

• I emphasize training facilities, as these are super important to a players development. If your club lacks strong infrastructure in this department, a loan to a club that has excellent training faciltiies maybe in fact be preferable. 
• You also want them in an environment where they can play well and ensure good ratings (a relegation threatened club can be a difficult environment to grow in). In general, signing players just to loan out can be a bit of a trap, I've mostly used loans on academy kids who I don't want to sell (because academy kids ) and I think are a season of development away from being rotation options to the first team. 

FM24 has a different curve for develop (not as influenced by turning 23 as on previous versions), but the 18-20 years are where a player will do a lot of growing. Technicals (and physicals although these are somewhat inherent and can be capped) are harder to develop later in that curve, so keeping a player around the first team to work on them immediately (post 18) can be hugely beneficial. Mental attributes can continue to mature as the player does, especially if he holds high PA and a strong personality.

On personality: you're looking for a cocktail of Ambition, Professionalism, and Determination for development. Check their media handling to get a better indicator of those values.

This is alsof how I look at loaning out a player. Something I look at is playing style of the team he's playing at. I tend to use possesion type of attacking of football. So the club the player goes too must have a similiar type.

[XaW]

1 hour ago, Feddo said:

Thanks for those links!

To prove you're own point, one of is findings was that determination is an important part of player development.

 

That's the problem with a lot of those tests. Various variables can majorly impact the outcome, and when they can't control those, the tests cannot prove anything. As I've said in several threads before, the test _can_ be useful if they seem to give a conclusion in either direction. And if that is something that is not how it should be, then those saves should be shared with SI who can then provide clarity. Most of the people posting youtube seems to care more about clicks than actually getting SI to look at the potential issue though.

Not that I mind people making content, I'm just tired of people falsely claim to "prove" this or have "evidence" for that. No, they don't, they have tendencies, or perhaps even correlation, but I've yet to see anyone proving causation.

[ANDY1OM]

Determination attribute is not the holly grail. Professional players ate what you want. It's the personality of the player that's the most important. 

[phnompenhandy]

7 hours ago, XaW said:

That's the problem with a lot of those tests. Various variables can majorly impact the outcome, and when they can't control those, the tests cannot prove anything. As I've said in several threads before, the test _can_ be useful if they seem to give a conclusion in either direction. And if that is something that is not how it should be, then those saves should be shared with SI who can then provide clarity. Most of the people posting youtube seems to care more about clicks than actually getting SI to look at the potential issue though.

Not that I mind people making content, I'm just tired of people falsely claim to "prove" this or have "evidence" for that. No, they don't, they have tendencies, or perhaps even correlation, but I've yet to see anyone proving causation.

His last video was announcing his retirement from the project.

[XaW]

8 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

His last video was announcing his retirement from the project.

Just to be clear I wasn't talking about anyone in particular in that post, just general based on those videos from various people I've seen, and various topics I've read. So that post was not aimed at anyone in particular, more the hyperbole clickbait style headlines and conclusions most content creators go to in order to gain views. Once again, I'm talking about how things are presented in general, not any person or creative works individually.

[Ganders]

Thanks for the replies on this. 

But I think I asked the wrong question. I think I'm trying to work out what's a more meaningful game for a young player?

Games in my under 21 league where I can see each game and view his stats weekly and see in detail how he's doing? Or loaned to a team in a non loaded league where the games are inaccessible and I'm just getting a summary of his development? 

Again, I'm maybe phrasing this badly.

[fc.cadoni]

3 hours ago, Ganders said:

Thanks for the replies on this. 

But I think I asked the wrong question. I think I'm trying to work out what's a more meaningful game for a young player?

Games in my under 21 league where I can see each game and view his stats weekly and see in detail how he's doing? Or loaned to a team in a non loaded league where the games are inaccessible and I'm just getting a summary of his development? 

Again, I'm maybe phrasing this badly.

 

[Ganders]

Hi, I do get that. But is a loaded/playable team just as valuable for loan experience as a team in a non loaded/inactive league? 

It's probably more a match engine question.

[fc.cadoni]

Mate, with all due respect; people has been already answered. 

[NineCloudNine]

23 minutes ago, fc.cadoni said:

Mate, with all due respect; people has been already answered. 

I’ve read through the thread and I don’t think @Ganders question has actually been clearly answered.

Will his young players develop if loaned to a team in a non-loaded league?

[Ganders]

@NineCloudNinethankyou, I probably could have phased it more clearly. 

[fc.cadoni]

1 hour ago, NineCloudNine said:

I’ve read through the thread and I don’t think @Ganders question has actually been clearly answered.

Will his young players develop if loaned to a team in a non-loaded league?

 

On 01/06/2024 at 01:46, FrazT said:

I would send him to an active league every time

Unloaded league uses the QME and not the actual ME. There is a big difference, and that's why FrazT said about active league.