Haguey Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 Have to appreciate your Arsenal levels of anti-jinx here Gunman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 3 minutes ago, Haguey said: Have to appreciate your Arsenal levels of anti-jinx here Gunman There's no anti-jinx, I've genuinely accepted England is lifting the trophy and I've reached the stage of acceptance. No point in fighting it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamjerome Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 11 hours ago, Barry Cartman said: Spain played a final with 6 CMs, of course they were boring they won that final 4-0 i do agree their matches were largely boring but imo it was mostly because teams defended deep against them and they didn't have wingers like nico and yamal like they have today Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
titchuk Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arenaross Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 I didn't realise Rob wrote for The Guardian. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalkSport Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 12 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said: If we talk strictly about performance in this tournament. Simon > Pickford - neither are convincing, but Simon had more good saves. Carvajal > Walker - Walker looks past it despite some good moments, Carvajal has been great. Le Normand < Stones - Stones looked like he's not fully fit early one, but has grown into it and played great against Netherlands. Laporte < Guehi - Guehi has been the biggest surprise and England fans can only be thankful Maguire got injured. Cucurella > Trippier - Cucurella looks like a different player than at Chelsea (most of them do), Trippier has easily be the worst starter for England. Rodri > Rice - If Spain wins, Rodri simply must win ballon. Rice is doing his job for the most part, but is nowhere near Rodri's level. Fabian > Mainoo - Fabian has been amazing, Mainoo has been great considering the expectations, but again, nowhere near Fabian. Olmo > Bellingham - Bellingham scored two, but hasn't done much other than that. Olmo has been great whenever he played. Yamal < Saka - Saka has arguably been England's best player and the only one trying to make something happen during turgid phases. Nico > Foden - Both incosistent with periods of disappearance, but Nico was less inconsistent. Morata < Kane - I'm still going to give it to Kane just because even on his best day, Morata is useless. Overall, England has way more untapped potential, I don't think anyone in Spain's starting lineup can play much better. I think Morata has been really good for Spain. His hold up play has been great and allowed Spain an outlet when under pressure. Feels he’s offered a lot more to Spain in their play than Kane has, rest I agree with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_jagster Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) Ronay is one of those joining a weird selection of journos who will happily say ETH isn't very good and that Man Utd still picked up results against sides with less resources in spite of him*, and when England do the same it's because Southgate has created a culture where lucky stuff happens, so is it really luck? To take an example from that article, Watkins coming on in the 81st minute and scoring is one in the eye for fans saying Watkins hasnt been given enough minutes. But coming on and scoring with the only onside shot in the second half is surely more an argument for the detractors, because maybe we create more if he's brought on earlier/in other games? *possible, but unlikely, that he hasn't made this argument at some point in his columns or Football Weekly appearances Edited July 13 by The_jagster 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 55 minutes ago, TalkSport said: I think Morata has been really good for Spain. His hold up play has been great and allowed Spain an outlet when under pressure. Feels he’s offered a lot more to Spain in their play than Kane has, rest I agree with. I don't think he's been great at all, been their clear weak link IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 (edited) 34 minutes ago, The_jagster said: Ronay is one of those joining a weird selection of journos who will happily say ETH isn't very good and that Man Utd still picked up results against sides with less resources in spite of him*, and when England do the same it's because Southgate has created a culture where lucky stuff happens, so is it really luck? To take an example from that article, Watkins coming on in the 81st minute and scoring is one in the eye for fans saying Watkins hasnt been given enough minutes. But coming on and scoring with the only onside shot in the second half is surely more an argument for the detractors, because maybe we create more if he's brought on earlier/in other games? *possible, but unlikely, that he hasn't made this argument at some point in his columns or Football Weekly appearances Toney coming on in the 94th minute similar. That was weird af. Edited July 13 by Baptista_8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnterUsernameHere Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 31 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said: I don't think he's been great at all, been their clear weak link IMO. Boring reply but I'd say he's been in the middle of what you and Pearcey says. Wouldn't call him really good but he's added more to Spain than Kane has for England. If nothing else, he's at least occupying the defence and pressing well, rather than being stuck in the holding midfield role for no apparent reason. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enigmatic Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 1 hour ago, The_jagster said: Ronay is one of those joining a weird selection of journos who will happily say ETH isn't very good and that Man Utd still picked up results against sides with less resources in spite of him*, and when England do the same it's because Southgate has created a culture where lucky stuff happens, so is it really luck? To take an example from that article, Watkins coming on in the 81st minute and scoring is one in the eye for fans saying Watkins hasnt been given enough minutes. But coming on and scoring with the only onside shot in the second half is surely more an argument for the detractors, because maybe we create more if he's brought on earlier/in other games? *possible, but unlikely, that he hasn't made this argument at some point in his columns or Football Weekly appearances Odd to conclude there's any inconsistency between thinking that two finals and a semi final in four tournaments is an exceptionally good return for England , whilst disagreeing that this season's return of eighth place and bottom of a Champions League group featuring FC Copenhagen and Galatasaray represents "a culture where lucky stuff happens" for Man Utd.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_jagster Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 Morata has been decent enough, not stinking the place out like Immobile for Italy last Euros. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ72 Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 1 minute ago, enigmatic said: Odd to conclude there's any inconsistency between thinking that two finals and a semi final in four tournaments is an exceptionally good return for England , whilst disagreeing that this season's return of eighth place and bottom of a Champions League group featuring FC Copenhagen and Galatasaray represents "a culture where lucky stuff happens" for Man Utd.... Utd at least won their cup... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_jagster Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 1 minute ago, enigmatic said: Odd to conclude there's any inconsistency between thinking that two finals and a semi final in four tournaments is an exceptionally good return for England , whilst disagreeing that this season's return of eighth place and bottom of a Champions League group featuring FC Copenhagen and Galatasaray represents "a culture where lucky stuff happens" for Man Utd.... And yet ETH has won infinitely more trophies in that time while England got relegated from a Nations League group losing 4-0 at home to Hungary in the process. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eenie Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 Ronay is dire. So is Liew. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enigmatic Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 18 minutes ago, The_jagster said: And yet ETH has won infinitely more trophies in that time while England got relegated from a Nations League group losing 4-0 at home to Hungary in the process. I can see how somebody completely unfamiliar with football might think that the Nations League sounds like a worse thing to fail in than the Premier League or Champions League, but I wouldn't expect sports journalists to base their opinions on such a misconception. Which is all beside the point really because nobody actually attacked Ten Hag for relying on a "culture of luck" and not dominating opponents, they attacked his teams for being absymal and racking up exceptional number of defeats,. That's not remotely similar to the popular "Gareth has won more knockout games than all his predecessors despite Gareth" angle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1981 Posted July 13 Author Share Posted July 13 (edited) International managers always have their reputation defined by these fine margins. Comes down to a handful of odd moments in a couple of key games and that is how you’re remembered. A substitute scores and it looks like a masterstroke. If not, you are the guy that wasted the opportunity because you made the wrong call. When the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. For a club manager, the luck usually evens out over a 38-game season. And certainly over a tenure of 2-3 years. You generally get the reputation you deserve in the end. Edited July 13 by Rob1981 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divinity Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 Torn between wanting England to win so Southgate gets a lifetime contract (a bit like ten Hag) vs the national mourning we'll see borne out if you fail dismally again as a result of turgid tactics. Definitely don't want to see Klopp manage England so leaning towards the former. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
VamPook Posted July 13 Share Posted July 13 Why is she being used for the meme Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haguey Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Gutted. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnterUsernameHere Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Please stay. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhikapp Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Southgate, Kane, Foden, and Walker has got blood on their hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Albrighton Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 We bored our way through another tournament and lost to the first decent team because we were boring and safe and only took a risk and made a change when we were behind, give the man another contract simply because we made semis and finals though, lets ignore the context and the absolutely turgid performances. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GunmaN1905 Posted July 14 Popular Post Share Posted July 14 I don't want to pile on anyone's mysery, but this tournament was one of the worst coaching jobs of a top team I've ever seen. For me Saka was England's best player because during turgid periods thourgout the entire tournament, he was the only one actively asking for the ball and trying to create something. What does tactical mastermind do? He puts him on wingback, a position he never, ever played before. In the middle of a big tournament, because why not? What happens in the final? Saka who never played the position is nowhere to be seen for Spain's first goal. Bellingham played false nine for Real out of neccesity because they don't have a striker. He's been a #8 throughout his entire BVB stint. What does Gareth do? Puts him in #10 role to collide with Kane. Rice is a great player, but not a deep playmaker. What does Gareth do? I don't even know, Rice was absolutely useless whenever England had the ball with opposition defense being set up. Kane? Remember Qatar? Lautaro has a bad game, delayed ankle surgery to play in the tournament. Gets benched one game in, his sub had an amazing tournament and made the difference. Gareth waits for the entire tournament to give Watkins a chance, does it only when Kane can't even stand on his feet anymore, he scores a semi-final winner and guess who starts the final? Diffcult decision, but was a necessary one. And potential injury has nothing to do with him playing in midfield. On who's instructions? Is it so hard to tell your #9 to not come back because he's too slow to rejoin the attack? Foden being ruined on the left the entire tournament, but obviously couldn't play in the middle due to Bellingham. What does Gareth do? Pulls a 2006 Brazil with all of the big names playing together and the entire attack looking like a bunch of randoms who never played before. Maguire's injury was a blessing because Guehi had a great tournament. Otherwise unfit Maguire would be starting. Already wrote about non-existant meachanisms in 3421 because most players never played it and it looked horrible again tonight. You want to change the system? Use the players who are suited for it. Think back to Swiss chances and how many of them were created by Rodriguez/Schar (wide CBs) presence near or even in the box, creating an overload. Guehi and Walker didn't even cross the half-line, let alone being near the box when England wasn't down a goal. Then the ball goes to Saka who's playing 1v3 on the side because Walker and side midfielder aren't there. All this nonsense about defending deep early on being a good thing is absolutely embarrassing considering the opposition. Should've lost every single knockout game. Even tonight, after equalizer he goes back deep which is understandable in a final, but then doesn't sub another midfield back in and Spain had a handful of situations with noone in midfield except outnumbered Rice. Making the final means nothing if it's made like this. Yeah, you can't choose your opponents and aren't responsible for an easier path. But you can't go through it being outplayed by weaker sides and expect to turn it up against the side that beat the hosts and the biggest favorites. It's time for a rebuild in England. New manager needs to figure out which system is he going to use and that system needs to be drilled in during the entire qualifying process. De La Fuente won both U19 and U21 tournaments, always the same style of play and then your weaker spots look good. Pick the player that fits the system and don't look at the names. Cucurella played over Grimaldo because he's more suited to the system. Walker, Shaw and Trippier need to go. Kane needs to go if he's not going to accept that he's not the most important player anymore. Deep playmaker needs to be found, even if he's not top level. Neither Rice nor Mainoo are one. This was so frustrating to watch that I'm not even a hater anymore, it's just sad that so much quality has been ruined by the most inept manager ever who kept his job just because he's a good friend with the players and created a good atmosphere. 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skybluedave Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Nobodies reading all that Gunman You gotta give it at least till the morning 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwig Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 4 minutes ago, skybluedave said: Nobodies reading all that Gunman You gotta give it at least till the morning He’s had that typed up for days. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skybluedave Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 1 minute ago, Bigwig said: He’s had that typed up for days. You think? Like a Boris Johnson Brexit piece? One for each result? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunmaN1905 Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 2 minutes ago, Bigwig said: He’s had that typed up for days. I actually kept thinking about it during the game and typed after the final whistle. Got really annoyed by his tactics straight from 1978. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robson 07 Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Managerial blind spots no.1 - legendary past it players. Example - Harry Kane. Great forward and finisher but lacking recent tournament form and coming off a heavy season. He offers zero movement. and a reduction in shape by dropping deep that he cannot replace as he's simply not fit or fast enough to spear the oppo defence. Has become a poacher (aka a dinosaur) in modern football very much akin to Cristiano Ronaldo and is most useful to team that generate tap-ins. A flat-track bully perhaps. A complete blind spot to Southgate for two consecutive tournaments and a campaign killer at the tip of a squad better than Spain's. The best signing Man Utd never made. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajw10 Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Another final, another Southgate disasterclass Would rather not see England in finals if it meant that we lose them in a pathetic manner. Kane clearly not fit, Walker obviously a liability. So Southgate starts both and plays the latter for 90 minutes. What a waste of a tournament. Crap manager. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robson 07 Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 1 minute ago, ajw10 said: Kane clearly not fit, Walker obviously a liability. So Southgate starts both and plays the latter for 90 minutes. Kane clearly picked on reputation alone. It's so easily done/overlooked. Has been brilliant, but emphasis in has been. Actually will probably do well again for Bayern over a season with such a dominant team. But does not have the legs/stamina/pace to add on an England schedule on top. He's not there physically. Not his fault, it's just time/age/sharpness, it does not live at elite level forever across 60-games seasons at that age. He's done for Engalnd (unless we play Malta or San Marino qualifiers) but Southgate did not have the balls for the biggest of big decisions, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skybluedave Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Expect Walker will retire after this. So (new) manager has to start building a side that works with Trent at right back. Tucking into midfield (assuming Slot continues doing this). If we continue with Kane up front too then we need runners. But then what do you do with Foden AND Jude. I know everyone wants them as 8's or Jude as 8 and Foden 10 but we literally have seen we don't have the holding midfielder to facilitate that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robson 07 Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 3 minutes ago, skybluedave said: Expect Walker will retire after this. So (new) manager has to start building a side that works with Trent at right back. Tucking into midfield (assuming Slot continues doing this). Trent is Liverpool and Sky hype. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajw10 Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Trent is great, Ben White is also great. Southgate will stay and pick Trippier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arenaross Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 The trouble with relying on luck is at some point the luck runs out. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robson 07 Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Just now, ajw10 said: Trent is great, Ben White is also great. Southgate will stay and pick Trippier Except he's not. Proven bad defender and midfielder. Knocking a long pass is alone not a good player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Lucas Posted July 14 Administrators Share Posted July 14 7 minutes ago, Robson 07 said: Kane clearly picked on reputation alone. It's so easily done/overlooked. Has been brilliant, but emphasis in has been. Actually will probably do well again for Bayern over a season with such a dominant team. But does not have the legs/stamina/pace to add on an England schedule on top. He's not there physically. Not his fault, it's just time/age/sharpness, it does not live at elite level forever across 60-games seasons at that age. He's done for Engalnd (unless we play Malta or San Marino qualifiers) but Southgate did not have the balls for the biggest of big decisions, Kane was obviously still carrying an injury. And he's lost a yard of pace and what made him really successful in an England shirt he didn't really have (runners playing off him). I don't mind Kane playing but we need to start looking for alternatives in those games against minnows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harryseaess Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Hard to say after he’s taken us to two finals but Southgate really needs to go. How he’s got such a talented group of players playing the way they do is embarrassing. Time to let a proper manager take charge and give the players the guidance that they deserve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skybluedave Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Maybe, but I wouldn't have minded Trent delivering those balls in Walker did this tournament. Not sure Walker ever beat first man. Even that Denmark goal he did his best to balls up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robson 07 Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 1 minute ago, Lucas said: Kane was obviously still carrying an injury. And he's lost a yard of pace and what made him really successful in an England shirt he didn't really have (runners playing off him). I don't mind Kane playing but we need to start looking for alternatives in those games against minnows. Was he? Looked like regulation Kane to me. Same as. Either way, should have been passed over at this tournament, it's Southgate's legacy glaring error. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhikapp Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 If we was subbing Toney in to lump it forward, the least he could've done is bring someone like Trent to cross it in. England made the final in spite of Southgate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robson 07 Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 2 minutes ago, skybluedave said: Maybe, but I wouldn't have minded Trent delivering those balls in Walker did this tournament. Not sure Walker ever beat first man. Even that Denmark goal he did his best to balls up Trent is Emperor's clothes, all day long. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalkSport Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 Said from the beginning, TAA should be playing over Walker. Walker only picked for speed, but when defending deep as a conscious set up, it’s pointless. You don’t want Walker with loads of the ball. Still maintain too, TAA is no worse defensively. Just Walker recovery pace is all people remember. Not playing your best RB on the ball, and no left winger, contributed to some **** football and lack of meaningful control. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1981 Posted July 14 Author Share Posted July 14 5 minutes ago, arenaross said: What does any of this mean? Kane vs. Slovakia is only 0.22 xG? Doesn’t this imply he only has a 1 in 5 chance of scoring the goal? Even though he headed it in literally from a yard out? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eenie Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 5 minutes ago, Lucas said: Kane was obviously still carrying an injury. And he's lost a yard of pace and what made him really successful in an England shirt he didn't really have (runners playing off him). I don't mind Kane playing but we need to start looking for alternatives in those games against minnows. Whether Kane was injured or not (and I think he must be injured as I've never seen him so immobile), Southgate's failing was still playing him in every single game despite him offering almost nothing. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Lucas Posted July 14 Administrators Share Posted July 14 6 minutes ago, Robson 07 said: Either way, should have been passed over at this tournament, it's Southgate's legacy glaring error. I don't think so. And most people I'm reading (and listening to) talk about the glaring errors being coaching rather than who is being picked, or not picked. You said it yourself, he'll do well for Bayern in a team that dominates. We've never set ourselves out to play that way. The glaring error for me is quite obviously tactical, doesn't suit the players we've got, but then we've done brilliantly in spite of that. I'm not going to go too deep down the rabbit hole of tactics though, ultimately I don't really care about that or who the manager is. Proud of them for getting to the final. After that, I'm not going to be harsh as we didn't get beaten 3-0, and it could have gone differently. Never mind, on to the next one. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robson 07 Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 1 minute ago, Lucas said: I don't think so. And most people I'm reading (and listening to) talk about the glaring errors being coaching rather than who is being picked, or not picked. You said it yourself, he'll do well for Bayern in a team that dominates. We've never set ourselves out to play that way. The glaring error for me is quite obviously tactical, doesn't suit the players we've got, but then we've done brilliantly in spite of that. I'm not going to go too deep down the rabbit hole of tactics though, ultimately I don't really care about that or who the manager is. Proud of them for getting to the final. After that, I'm not going to be harsh as we didn't get beaten 3-0. Agree mostly. I think winning and losing in competitive sport is often in the margins, Centre forward is pivotal, no one can deny that. England played with an ineffective striker all tournament. They just did, Go figure how important that is. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 7 minutes ago, Rob1981 said: What does any of this mean? Kane vs. Slovakia is only 0.22 xG? Doesn’t this imply he only has a 1 in 5 chance of scoring the goal? Even though he headed it in literally from a yard out? He didn't head it in did he? Left foot finish wasn't it? But yeah take your point it should be higher than 0.22 that one. Lack of clear cut chances has been a problem since game one though - always going to end up costing us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skybluedave Posted July 14 Share Posted July 14 I genunely don't think there is another possible England manager out there that doesn't start Kane (if he'a fit). Like this isn't a Southgate thing. We could have Pep in charge and he'd be starting Kane 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now