Game 17: Denmark vs England live from the Frankfurt Arena. BBC1 5pm

[skybluedave]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

Right. But you shouldn’t be comparing him to the Henderson of previous tournaments, you should be comparing him to the TAA of this afternoon. Because that’s the only choice you can make at this point. And TAA at the moment isn’t just underperforming as an individual, he is also dragging everyone else’s performance levels down because the team isn’t purring as a group.

It says something when I was sitting there hoping for a Kyle Walker injury when he went down and changed his boots. Actually hoping that he would have to come off so that TAA could be pushed to RB and we could then bring on a midfielder who could bring some balance and hold on to the bloody football.

I actually think I'd prefer TAA over Walker at right back. Because Trippier is on the left, we need more of an attacking threat from right back

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, Haguey said:

Chucking your best players out there rarely works

In the past 20 years:

2004 Greece - no explanation needed.
2006 Italy - Totti and Del Piero never played together.
2008 Spain - Xabi, Fabregas, Villa on the bench.
2010 Spain - Torres and Fabregas on the bench.
2012 Spain - No striker at all.
2014 Germany - You mentioned Howedes and Kramer. Gotze was coming off the bench despite his ridiculous season.
2016 Portugal - Quaresma and Moutinho benched for more defensive stability.
2018 France - Played Matuidi together with Kante to help Pogba. Mbappe as the only natural wing.
2021 Italy - I'd say the only team where no star was benched for not fitting the system.
2022 Argentina - Lautaro benched after a bad start for Alvarez who played an amazing tournament.

It doesn't matter Foden had an amazing season if he's struggling here.
Other wings have plenty of quality to work in a system.
If bloody Del Piero could sit on the bench, so can Foden and Trent.

[SouthCoastRed]

45 minutes ago, TheWednesday said:

You'd back them on pens though, I wouldn't put my money on our lads.

That's what Rishi said

[themadsheep2001]

Yeah you still dont pick Henderson here either to be ****ing honest. Youve got Wharton, Mainoo on the bench. People forget Bellingham was a box to box mid before he went to Madrid. Its not a choice between Henderson and TAA. The answer is neither of them in midfield 

[Rob1981]

6 minutes ago, Vynal Seven said:

Then it begs the question of why our form players haven’t played together before then really doesn’t it?

I might be wrong, but I don’t think there has been a single international break since WC22 when Foden, Bellingham, Rice, Saka and TAA have all been available. When TAA played in midfield previously it was instead of Bellingham, not as well as.

[The_jagster]

9 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Right. But you shouldn’t be comparing him to the Henderson of previous tournaments, you should be comparing him to the TAA of this afternoon. Because that’s the only choice you can make at this point. And TAA at the moment isn’t just underperforming as an individual, he is also dragging everyone else’s performance levels down because the team isn’t purring as a group.

It says something when I was sitting there hoping for a Kyle Walker injury when he went down and changed his boots. Actually hoping that he would have to come off so that TAA could be pushed to RB and we could then bring on a midfielder who could bring some balance and hold on to the bloody football.

And Gallagher replaced Trent to run around and get stuck in and the team were still pants. It's not like Trent was the only issue

[JJ72]

Just now, The_jagster said:

And Gallagher replaced Trent to run around and get stuck in and the team were still pants. It's not like Trent was the only issue

Hes one of many. Including Gallagher playing. He offers nothing other than a yellow card.

[skybluedave]

I get Wharton and Mainoo are maybe not world beaters and it's a big step up for them in terms of pressure considering their age but having somebody comfortable on the ball who understands how to play midfield alongside Rice will go such a long way. 

I get what they tried to do with Trent, and he was always going to have to grow into that role but their clearly isn't enough time to let that happen

[Smallen]

I think Kane is probably the biggest concern though isn’t he. Guy is vibing around the pitch like 40 year old Cristiano Ronaldo and that’s being kind.

[TalkSport]

Personnel aside, I’ve seen it far too much with Gareth, and it’s something I’ve always had against him, and that’s how we go defensive after scoring.

Italy in the Euro final was what ended it for me. And despite 3 years on, it’s not changed. 

2 games now where we’ve scored early on, and mentality has then been to sit off. You just can’t do that (at least not that early on), because once a side gets level, momentum is gone, and it’s hard to switch. I also don’t fancy us as a side to break anyone down. 

Like, both of our goals this tournament have come from deflected crosses  

[The_jagster]

Just now, Smallen said:

I think Kane is probably the biggest concern though isn’t he. Guy is vibing around the pitch like 40 year old Cristiano Ronaldo and that’s being kind.

This happened last Euros too

[Astafjevs]

This thread could be golden if England actually go on to win this.

[aggressive minor]

I wonder if Kane isn’t fully fit, was carry an injury at the end of the season 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

how long has phillips been out of regular first team football?

[Rob1981]

6 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Yeah you still dont pick Henderson here either to be ****ing honest. Youve got Wharton, Mainoo on the bench.

At this point, with the squad we've taken... I would have been giving Mainoo every minute possible.  I think Southgate already knew that TAA wasn't the answer in midfield when we came up against a France or a Germany.  So if we are going to use Mainoo in the KOs... why waste time with TAA in the group stage when we could be using the opportunity to blood Mainoo and get him used to the players around him?  But if you take a Henderson or a Mount as well... you don't have to pile all that pressure on Mainoo.  You also have someone else that can do the legwork in midfield.  Unexciting, sure... but you can rely on them to do the job for the team that we aren't getting from TAA.

[skybluedave]

Just now, Astafjevs said:

This thread could be golden if England actually go on to win this.

It is weirdly dejavu like after the US and Scotland games last 2 tournaments

[Coulthard's Jaw]

3 minutes ago, Smallen said:

I think Kane is probably the biggest concern though isn’t he. Guy is vibing around the pitch like 40 year old Cristiano Ronaldo and that’s being kind.

Yeah he looks a bit fed up with the set up doesn't he? must be fuming about being subbed off

[av3ry]

We may be disjointed but was there any need to defend on the edge of our penalty box, Rice just sitting in front of the back four having no intention of pushing forward? At least defend 20 yards further forward and get the midfield to run forward.

And if he is picking players on form, why is Cole Palmer not starting and behind Bowen and Eze? He scored like 20 goals in the league last season for Chelsea.

[skybluedave]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Yeah he looks a bit fed up with the set up doesn't he? must be fuming about being subbed off

He needs to get the big boys together and start a tactical mutiny

[JJ72]

2 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Yeah he looks a bit fed up with the set up doesn't he? must be fuming about being subbed off

Still can't win anything and time is running out

[Rob1981]

23 minutes ago, Haguey said:

I can't think of a team that has won a tournament without at least a couple of functional players in there

15 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

2008 Spain - Xabi, Fabregas, Villa on the bench.

2010 Spain - Torres and Fabregas on the bench.
2014 Germany - You mentioned Howedes and Kramer. Gotze was coming off the bench despite his ridiculous season.
2016 Portugal - Quaresma and Moutinho benched for more defensive stability.
2018 France - Played Matuidi together with Kante to help Pogba. Mbappe as the only natural wing.
2022 Argentina - Lautaro benched after a bad start for Alvarez who played an amazing tournament.

You don't win a tournament without a Stéphane Guivarc'h basically.

Virtually every tournament winning side has one or two modest names in there... people you look at and think: "Really?  How did they get in the WC-winning side?"

AND they have big players on the bench where you look at them and think: "Why weren't they getting in the side?"

I've said it for years and people laughed at me.  People said we should go with club form and put all the exciting players in together.  Well this is what it looks like.

[Smallen]

3 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Yeah he looks a bit fed up with the set up doesn't he? must be fuming about being subbed off

even if he’s annoyed it’s not really the standard you want your captain to be setting. Like jags said it was like this at the last Euros too with him. He never got going in that tournament.

[themadsheep2001]

3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

At this point, with the squad we've taken... I would have been giving Mainoo every minute possible.  I think Southgate already knew that TAA wasn't the answer in midfield when we came up against a France or a Germany.  So if we are going to use Mainoo in the KOs... why waste time with TAA in the group stage when we could be using the opportunity to blood Mainoo and get him used to the players around him?  But if you take a Henderson or a Mount as well... you don't have to pile all that pressure on Mainoo.  You also have someone else that can do the legwork in midfield.  Unexciting, sure... but you can rely on them to do the job for the team that we aren't getting from TAA.

Henderson is garbage and Mount has barely played all season tbh. 

[TalkSport]

3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

At this point, with the squad we've taken... I would have been giving Mainoo every minute possible.  I think Southgate already knew that TAA wasn't the answer in midfield when we came up against a France or a Germany.  So if we are going to use Mainoo in the KOs... why waste time with TAA in the group stage when we could be using the opportunity to blood Mainoo and get him used to the players around him?  But if you take a Henderson or a Mount as well... you don't have to pile all that pressure on Mainoo.  You also have someone else that can do the legwork in midfield.  Unexciting, sure... but you can rely on them to do the job for the team that we aren't getting from TAA.

Even he would be pointless in a 4-3-3. Basically played there for us when we had Phillips/Rice, and he’s not played in a system without two holding CMs. 

Most people said TAA shouldn’t be CM ages ago. There’s a reason Klopp didn’t play him there and spent millions on CMs. His skill set is suited to RB, but Southgate has it in his mind he can’t play there. So it’s CM or no where.

[arenaross]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

You don't win a tournament without a Stéphane Guivarc'h basically.

Virtually every tournament winning side has one or two modest names in there... people you look at and think: "Really?  How did they get in the WC-winning side?"

AND they have big players on the bench where you look at them and think: "Why weren't they getting in the side?"

I've said it for years and people laughed at me.  People said we should go with club form and put all the exciting players in together.  Well this is what it looks like.

This is exactly what every other tournament has looked like at this stage. Hardly like we were lighting up the group stages with Hendo pulling the strings. 

[Astafjevs]

3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

You don't win a tournament without a Stéphane Guivarc'h basically.

Virtually every tournament winning side has one or two modest names in there... people you look at and think: "Really?  How did they get in the WC-winning side?"

AND they have big players on the bench where you look at them and think: "Why weren't they getting in the side?"

I've said it for years and people laughed at me.  People said we should go with club form and put all the exciting players in together.  Well this is what it looks like.

[Rob1981]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Henderson is garbage and Mount has barely played all season tbh. 

And yet... still among the best options we have to call on.  If the only other alternatives are Mainoo (2 caps), Wharton (0 caps), Gallagher (red card in waiting),TAA (not a midfielder) and Phillips (spent).  Kante came back in from the cold and was MOM for France... not because he's the best individual player at this point in his career, but because he could do the job that the team needed doing.

[Vynal Seven]

7 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I think Southgate already knew that TAA wasn't the answer in midfield when we came up against a France or a Germany.  So if we are going to use Mainoo in the KOs... why waste time with TAA in the group stage

Sometimes I think you think you’re defending Gareth but things like this are an absolutely damning indictment of his management.  

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, arenaross said:

This is exactly what every other tournament has looked like at this stage.

Results wise, yes.  Performances, no.

We played those draws against Scotland and USA because the point suited us and we weren't bothered about going up a gear.

Not because we had a load of players charging around who weren't clear about their roles.

[Smallen]

I think we need to play Bellingham alongside Rice. Foden can play 10 and we can play an actual left-sided player.

[Haguey]

6 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

You don't win a tournament without a Stéphane Guivarc'h basically.

Virtually every tournament winning side has one or two modest names in there... people you look at and think: "Really?  How did they get in the WC-winning side?"

AND they have big players on the bench where you look at them and think: "Why weren't they getting in the side?"

I've said it for years and people laughed at me.  People said we should go with club form and put all the exciting players in together.  Well this is what it looks like.

Good example tonight with Spain, surely Cucurella and Morata don't get into their best XI quality wise, but they help give them balance

Although now I look Morata has been scoring loads in La Liga for a few years so nvm

Edited June 20 by Haguey

[Marc Albrighton]

Performances have never been good at a tournament under Southgate, results were decent for a few tournaments but his team has always been ****ing dreadful to watch.

[TalkSport]

I just continually find it so hard to believe that we would somehow be worse with and without the ball with a midfield three of Foden/Bellingham/Rice. Too often, we’ve played someone else in there, and I don’t see nothing positive come from it. We don’t keep the ball well to create open play chances, we still give up chances through the middle. 

Edit: Even at this point, if that was played. I’m not confident it works attacking wise because we clearly are a poorly coached side, and Kanes comments back that. 

Edited June 20 by TalkSport

[themadsheep2001]

5 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

And yet... still among the best options we have to call on.  If the only other alternatives are Mainoo (2 caps), Wharton (0 caps), Gallagher (red card in waiting),TAA (not a midfielder) and Phillips (spent).  Kante came back in from the cold and was MOM for France... not because he's the best individual player at this point in his career, but because he could do the job that the team needed doing.

He's not amongst the best options, there 3 options in the current squad alone. 

If we're worried about caps, drop Bellingham back alongside Rice, and Foden to 10. Mainoo and Wharton are outright better players than Henderson. 

The Kante comparison is laughable because Kante is still actually a brilliant player. Henderson is not

[RTHerringbone]

What a terrible match  Utterly awful.

I don't even know where we go from here. It's absolutely criminal that so many (all?!) starting players under-perform in the same game. If anything, it's the lauded front six that were the worst performers as their abject pressing invited so much unnecessary pressure.

I'm tempted to raze everything to the ground and make wholesale changes for the last game; 5 or 6 players out. It has low / no long-term value but I can't trust (m)any of that lot to deliver.

[Pukey]

38 minutes ago, Smallen said:

An in-form Phillips does transform our midfield tbh. I think recency bias is making people forget that the guy earned a big move to the best team in the world at the time.

Preach it, brother. I have no disagreement with anyone's assessment of him since his City move, the times I've watched him have been incredibly sad about 80% of the time and a bit meh the rest of it apart from the Scotland performance where he was pretty good, but he was an absolutely key player for us for good while. I know I've always been his biggest defender (Kalvin Phillips' mum tag incoming) but it baffled me how quickly people acted like he was always useless. Once him and Rice clicked they were pretty brilliant.

Having said that: 

40 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

Phillips wasn't playing in the World Cup either, another event where England were very good. So just saying 'we need a Phillips' makes no sense either.

 

33 minutes ago, Darren Moores Mum said:

Imagine being such a one dimensional manager that you're a drop in form of Kalvin Phillips away from it all collapsing and not having a clue how to change things.

These are very valid points. Phillips' complete lack of form should not completely break the whole team, and it didn't do at the world cup. Should probably just go with Bellingham/Rice midfield, I know you're missing a bit of threat from him in that case but if it balance the rest of the squad it's worth it. 

[RTHerringbone]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

He's not amongst the best options, there 3 options in the current squad alone. 

Agreed. Number of caps is utterly irrelevant. You don't get experience without getting experience. There's no galaxy in which Henderson rolls back the years and has a Kante-like resurrection.

[Tummyowl]

England were very poor. Honourable mentions to Kane who I thought was dreadful.

Have never understood the Southgate love, he’s spectacularly average. The squad feels unbalanced.

Midfield set up is all wrong, Trent is not a midfielder. Foden is not a left winger. Shame there is not an English left back to offer something on the left.

Defence doesn’t feel too bad except no attacking threat from either full back.

Southgate just strikes me as going out set up to not lose, rather than win, and leave that attacking stuff to attacking players (Saka, Kane, Bellingham, Foden), without any thought of build up or approach. 
 

Oh well. Currently enjoying the Spain V Italy match.

[Haguey]

I agreed with your point about having an experienced head in defence the other day Rob rather than 3 players with barely any caps, but not sure that applies to Henderson  Kante is a special case too as he spent the last two years at Chelsea mostly injured which is why they sold him. Seems the gentler pace and less fixtures in Saudi have helped him stay fit. Plus while Hendo was a good player Kante is one of the best we've ever seen at what he does, you always make space for someone like that

[arenaross]

8 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Results wise, yes.  Performances, no.

We played those draws against Scotland and USA because the point suited us and we weren't bothered about going up a gear.

Not because we had a load of players charging around who weren't clear about their roles.

I hate to be the one to break it to you buddy but the performances were rubbish in previous tournaments as well. 

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

there 3 options in the current squad alone. 

Hopefully we switch out TAA for Gallagher against Slovenia, I think we will. But Mainoo and Wharton are so green… we probably don’t want to rush them into the starting eleven too quickly. If Mainoo had been thrown in against Serbia and had got the kind of criticism that TAA is getting people would be going mad and saying we were expecting too much too soon.

Trouble is, if we can’t build up a decent lead with Plan A then Mainoo isn’t getting minutes off the bench either. Then potentially you are throwing him into a huge game later on limited minutes. There is no way Gallagher is getting through to a QF without picking up a suspension along the way.

[Baptista_8]

We need to throw one of them in, you don't win a tournament without taking risks.

So far off that anyway but still.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

Hopefully we switch out TAA for Gallagher against Slovenia, I think we will. But Mainoo and Wharton are so green… we probably don’t want to rush them into the starting eleven too quickly.

I know it's not exactly the same yada yada yada but Spain have some 16 year old strutting about the pitch like a king. If you're good enough, you're old enough.

[eenie]

20 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Yeah he looks a bit fed up with the set up doesn't he? must be fuming about being subbed off

Maybe he should have tried running a bit? He must be carrying an injury because he looked so static and barely broke into a jog as he ambled deeper and deeper.

[Baptista_8]

1 minute ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I know it's not exactly the same yada yada yada but Spain have some 16 year old strutting about the pitch like a king. If you're good enough, you're old enough.

And if you're old enough, you're good enough, just like Benson & Hedges.

[Rebs]

I'd rather have Wharton in than Gallagher.

[Haguey]

Southgate has done well generally with the kids but he seems more and more reluctant as time goes by, classic thing of a manager under a bit of pressure closing up and taking less risks. Squad is still young but Mainoo has had a great season, give him a go, Wharton is here for a reason, give him a go too.

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I know it's not exactly the same yada yada yada but Spain have some 16 year old strutting about the pitch like a king. If you're good enough, you're old enough.

This. Whoever comes in has still got Rice next to him, and Stones behind. Also they are here because they have been unfazed as players, Mainoo played like he had 20 caps not 2. Better one of them than a non midfielder 

[eenie]

How many times has TAA played CM for England before this Euros?

[RTHerringbone]

You absolutely have to take the plunge with Wharton or Mainoo if the "best" other option over the full-back in midfield, is Connor Gallagher. Come on.

That pair have demonstrated ably over the season that they have huge potential. We can't shield them until they hit an arbitrary age or number of appearances.