FM 25 DEVELOPMENT UPDATE

[XaW]

7 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

and will make sense for long-term investment.

What do think the move to Unity is?

[Novem9]

15 минут назад, XaW сказал:

What do think the move to Unity is?

Actually, we were talking about potential competitors. What does your comment have to do with it?

 

perhaps you need some further clarification. In the first paragraph I wrote that the genre is difficult to develop. In the second I explained that FM sales reports are looking more and more interesting. This means that other companies will finally be interested in this market, since making a complex game in a niche genre from scratch is not as profitable as in a rapidly growing market

Edited September 9 by Novem9

[jmlima]

10 minutes ago, XaW said:

What do think the move to Unity is?

A trade-off between having 100% control over your product, in order to gain some other advantage (it has got to be portability and easier multi-platform).

[themadsheep2001]

Please do not let this thread isn't going to descend into more sniping. I suggest everyone takes a breath before they type themselves into trouble. Ultimately regardless of what people think about these decisions, they aren't going to change, its good to see people's constructive feedback, but beyond that, repeatedly arguing the toss between each to determine who is more right is an exercise in futility. 

 

 

[cps_1900]

On 06/09/2024 at 11:58, Carambau said:

Oh well... exactly what i feared is happening. This is going to be "good bye new FMs from now on" for me. Going to switch to old FMs or maybe WAF2024. And I am not the only one I hear. A real pity  

Hi probably me being think but what is "WAF2024".  I tried googling it but the only thing that came up was "World Architecture Festival".  Thanks  World Architecture Festival"

[jmlima]

4 minutes ago, cps_1900 said:

Hi probably me being think but what is "WAF2024".  I tried googling it but the only thing that came up was "World Architecture Festival".  Thanks  World Architecture Festival"

We Are Football 2024: https://www.gog.com/en/game/we_are_football_2024

[Birdman10piyu]

WAF2024 is pretty nice. Got some good features too and indepth player stats.

I'd play it over FM if the ME wasn't so crap.

[cps_1900]

15 minutes ago, jmlima said:

We Are Football 2024: https://www.gog.com/en/game/we_are_football_2024

Thanks 

[trevjim]

1 hour ago, Birdman10piyu said:

WAF2024 is pretty nice. Got some good features too and indepth player stats.

I'd play it over FM if the ME wasn't so crap.

Interestingly a lot of the reviews are from users who say they made the move from FM due to the tedious issues like repetitive dialog and player interactions of FM.

They say it's more fun than the boring FM now

 

Will give it a go

Edited September 9 by trevjim

[CoffeeKittyGrey]

1 hour ago, trevjim said:

Interestingly a lot of the reviews are from users who say they made the move from FM due to the tedious issues like repetitive dialog and player interactions of FM.

They say it's more fun than the boring FM now

 

Will give it a go

I think it definitely attracts those who preferred the dumbed down FM Touch, or the CM series post SI split. There's a simplicity in the lack of detail that will appeal to those looking at something more arcade and less simulation, but I share @Birdman10piyu's sentiment that the ME is awful. The only way i see it challenging FM anytime soon is if FM25 and onwards forsakes laptop playability in favour of desktop specs.

[podunkboy]

22 hours ago, jim owen said:

odds are if its 5% OF saves its likely to be higher than 5% of players, as most international save managers will also do at least 1 club save, whereas there will be many club only. 

 

As it is i suspect i'm somewhat unusual as i do 2 club saves and 2 international saves per year (big and little for both), as it is for me personally they have just announced they will give me half the game next year that i have got this year, as such FM25 will be the first game since FM13 i skip (unless a miracle happens and they halve the price to compensate), I wish them luck, but every announcement so far has been removing things (only minor till this international one which is HUGE), i personally can't justify (and i'm sure others will be similar) paying the same price for substantially less

I do national management, I often do a create-a-club save, and if SI's going to roll out half the expected game at full price, I won't be giving them my money this year. I'll just wait for the Epic free giveaway next September. My Steam library has a couple hundred games I've never even loaded up. 

[Birdman10piyu]

1 hour ago, CoffeeKittyGrey said:

I think it definitely attracts those who preferred the dumbed down FM Touch, or the CM series post SI split. There's a simplicity in the lack of detail that will appeal to those looking at something more arcade and less simulation, but I share @Birdman10piyu's sentiment that the ME is awful. The only way i see it challenging FM anytime soon is if FM25 and onwards forsakes laptop playability in favour of desktop specs.

That's what it is I liked about it. It felt more "arcadey" and less like a spreadsheet simulator.

It has AI generated faces for players (everyone is fake)

I particularly like the player profiles. They get really into the personality of the player and do away from attributes. So you got things like how flashy a player is. What particular skills they are good (passing, dribbling, etc)

 

One thing that stood out to me was how quick the game is. Even the loading.

If I want to watch highlights from another match, it's so quick and easy and not much of a loading time

I'm still keeping an eye on WAF to see if they can improve the ME

 

[themadsheep2001]

Please take non FM discussion elsewhere, such as the off topic forum. Thanks. 

[Roy Race 9]

13 hours ago, XaW said:

N I at least am very happy SI are becoming more open and transparent with their communication. I've advocated for SI communicating much more with the user base, and even though we aren't exactly given good info, at least we are given some info now.

Other than that I hope for more details about what exactly is in the game for the next update late September as we have just about no info about how the game looks or works at the moment.

Hi 

Can they be clear with their communication about the below please as they ignore the editing community and have for years.

That part of the community spend a lot of their free time doing things SI should be 

The same bugs appearing every version is shocking its not much to ask for dialogue and working with the community there as there is no excuse for how SI treat this part of the game

cheers

On 09/09/2024 at 07:42, Roy Race 9 said:

Removing international management is simply dreadful   

Also what is happening with the pre game editor are there going to be changes and if so what?

dont leave it to others in the community to do the work for you as usual and find out what has changed, how it works and give hours of their time fixing the endless bugs there are  with workarounds

The editor should be Beta tested thoroughly [there are many really good editors in the community who would do this]

also it should be released with the Beta test of the game

 

 

[jmlima]

10 hours ago, Roy Race 9 said:

Hi 

Can they be clear with their communication about the below please as they ignore the editing community and have for years.

That part of the community spend a lot of their free time doing things SI should be 

The same bugs appearing every version is shocking its not much to ask for dialogue and working with the community there as there is no excuse for how SI treat this part of the game

cheers

 

Quite true. And it could be solved with a one liner: 'the pre-game editor will be present as usual with the same features as FM24.'.

[XaW]

10 hours ago, Roy Race 9 said:

Hi 

Can they be clear with their communication about the below please as they ignore the editing community and have for years.

That part of the community spend a lot of their free time doing things SI should be 

The same bugs appearing every version is shocking its not much to ask for dialogue and working with the community there as there is no excuse for how SI treat this part of the game

cheers

Not sure why you are asking me, but I agree they should be even more forthcoming with the communication. I've also said multiple times in here that I wish they spent more time on bugs and technical debt than on new features. Now, I do hope that the switch to Unity will force some of that to be done, but we shall see when we get more info.

[forameuss]

34 minutes ago, jmlima said:

Quite true. And it could be solved with a one liner: 'the pre-game editor will be present as usual with the same features as FM24.'.

Or maybe, just maybe, we could safely assume that there will be nothing changed with the editor given it's been present in pretty much every version as far as I can remember, and the database is likely to be largely untouched by an engine change.  

[jmlima]

4 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Or maybe, just maybe, we could safely assume that there will be nothing changed with the editor given it's been present in pretty much every version as far as I can remember, and the database is likely to be largely untouched by an engine change.  

Well, I assumed international management is such an integral part of the modern game and also of FM that it would always be present. Same for manager communication with players during a game.

You know what they say when you assume something...

[Novem9]

8 минут назад, forameuss сказал:

Or maybe, just maybe, we could safely assume that there will be nothing changed with the editor given it's been present in pretty much every version as far as I can remember, and the database is likely to be largely untouched by an engine change.  

This will be very disappointing. The editor is very clunky. Especially when editing leagues, creating leagues that are not present in the vanilla version. Switching to Unity seems like a great opportunity to give the editor a new birth, change the structure and logic.

[forameuss]

8 minutes ago, jmlima said:

Well, I assumed international management is such an integral part of the modern game and also of FM that it would always be present. Same for manager communication with players during a game.

You know what they say when you assume something...

Again, one is tied very tightly to their choice of engine.  One sits completely outwith the game itself and only touches the database, which isn't really coupled tightly to their choice of engine.  It's a pretty logical assumption to make, but if it really bothers you bookmark this and come back if the editor isn't present.

But by all means, get a list of things and I'm sure SI will be along in a minute to painstakingly go over which things are or are not going to be in the game.  Because knowing right now is of the utmost importance (at least) 2 months prior to the release of the product.

  

Just now, Novem9 said:

This will be very disappointing. The editor is very clunky. Especially when editing leagues, creating leagues that are not present in the vanilla version. Switching to Unity seems like a great opportunity to give the editor a new birth, change the structure and logic.

The editor is a bit of a mess, but given they're clearly struggling to get the main product ready, I'd imagine overhauling something that isn't really coupled to Unity isn't going to be high on their priority list.  It likely never will be.

Edited September 10 by forameuss

[Novem9]

3 минуты назад, forameuss сказал:

The editor is a bit of a mess, but given they're clearly struggling to get the main product ready, I'd imagine overhauling something that isn't really coupled to Unity isn't going to be high on their priority list.  It likely never will be

This will be quite comical, since the current editor is a relic for geeks. But yes, given their crunch, the editor is becoming a low priority.

 

[jmlima]

3 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

This will be quite comical, since the current editor is a relic for geeks. But yes, given their crunch, the editor is becoming a low priority.

 

Well, at the very least, it will benefit (?) from the new UI. Whatever that will be.

[oche balboa]

19 hours ago, Birdman10piyu said:

WAF2024 is pretty nice. Got some good features too and indepth player stats.

I'd play it over FM if the ME wasn't so crap.

It's a good game, But a long way from FM 

[SavoNFFC]

On 04/09/2024 at 13:45, ForTheLoveOfTheGame said:

They have used the 5% figure to justify removing it though. That’s a worrying road to go down with features. 

Bet they don't do it with the women's management though which is surely less than 5% of users.

My question is this too, is this supposed '5%' taken from saves that begin as an international manager or ones that take over one during a save? Because I would never begin a save as an international team only but might takeover one if they have a good crop of players part way through a save, alongside a club job.

[SavoNFFC]

On 04/09/2024 at 15:01, oche balboa said:

I rather have it than not. It's still (In my opinion) fun but like most things can be improved. People enjoy it 

I don't understand the need to actually remove it from the game completely. We're all in agreement really that it needs an overhaul but it could've just been left in it's current state while they work on it for next year, surely.

[grade]

16 minutes ago, SavoNFFC said:

Bet they don't do it with the women's management though which is surely less than 5% of users.

My question is this too, is this supposed '5%' taken from saves that begin as an international manager or ones that take over one during a save? Because I would never begin a save as an international team only but might takeover one if they have a good crop of players part way through a save, alongside a club job.

I'm at a point, where we are getting women's football, whether you like it or not.

We are never going to see the percentage of players going to use women's football just the amount of investment SI has made to include that inside of football. Even if a low percentage of players are using them. (this is simply a theory, I'm not trying to insinuate anything... I hope there are a lot of people who will be using women's football. It is a proper feature in years in FM, not the upgrades we have been getting as of the last couple of years).

I for one would love to see the actual percentage of people using Press Conferences... I hardly believe people use that more than International Football.

[Novem9]

Только что, SavoNFFC сказал:

I don't understand the need to actually remove it from the game completely. We're all in agreement really that it needs an overhaul but it could've just been left in it's current state while they work on it for next year, surely.

This may be related to the new interface. With new/updated modules for clubs. It is impossible to say from the outside what exactly the problem is. But imagine that you had a house made of LEGO, and you want to build the same one using bricks from another company. This is a very rough example, but putting a module from an old constructor into a new one will not be the best idea even for a temporary solution. Because then it will be harder to take it out than it seems

[Federico]

I myself play regurarly international football "on the way", once I won some silverware with the club, I love to have a stint with the NT just to resign after the tournaments (usually WC & ET) and look for another journey.

To be honest I find this "5% cut" pretty much "a way" to get rid of the stuff they could not or not want to include anymore. As said previously I'd be curious to see how many people interact with PCs and how many delegate'em to the assistant, in example.

I think they surely have good reasons to remove features, as much as I'm sure that if these reasons are "reasonable" the most of us would have understood, but in this case it just increased the speculation and some exaggeration in reactions from some users, not of a great benefit to the forum.

Edited September 10 by Federico

[grade]

19 minutes ago, Federico said:

I myself play regurarly international football "on the way", once I won some silverware with the club, I love to have a stint with the NT just to resign after the tournaments (usually WC & ET) and look for another journey.

To be honest I find this "5% cut" pretty much "a way" to get rid of the stuff they could not or not want to include anymore. As said previously I'd be curious to see how many people interact with PCs and how many delegate'em to the assistant, in example.

I think they surely have good reasons to remove features, as much as I'm sure that if these reasons are "reasonable" the most of us would have understood, but in this case it just increased the speculation and some exaggeration in reactions from some users, not of a great benefit to the forum.

I thought Miles was clear that the reason for removing International Football and the other features that were announced to this day, is simply they tried to change too much the game into this new era, and now they simply are spread too thin.

I do pray that more features aren't removed at this point or that SI can deliver a workable, bugless FM 25 with this new timeline Miles posted. Because SI postponed CM4 years ago from September to March release schedule, just for the same reasons, it wasn't pretty.

I for one will be happy for an eventually paid roster DLC update for FM 24 (if that is the case) if SI needs the time to get things right. I prefer a workable game, then a half-baked game. I do know this isn't financially workable for SI, a lot of people might not buy the DLC (a 45 pounds income is not the same of 10 or 20 pound income).

Despite my SI criticisms and my dislike for the man himself (Miles), I'm still a fan of FM I would help out in that way if it came to be.

Edited September 10 by grade

[jmlima]

1 hour ago, Novem9 said:

....But imagine that you had a house made of LEGO, and you want to build the same one using bricks from another company. This is a very rough example, but putting a module from an old constructor into a new one will not be the best idea even for a temporary solution. ...

That's literally what the entire move to unity is.

[jmlima]

1 hour ago, grade said:

...

I for one would love to see the actual percentage of people using Press Conferences... I hardly believe people use that more than International Football.

Forget percentages, shouts are being removed on the basis they are not fit for purpose, on that rationale how can the press / player / board interactions be classified as fit for purpose?

[Craigus89]

31 minutes ago, jmlima said:

Forget percentages, shouts are being removed on the basis they are not fit for purpose, on that rationale how can the press / player / board interactions be classified as fit for purpose?

Yep. I'm not sure I've gone into it on here before, but these features are what I would call "fake depth". They all lend the appearance that there is complexity and depth to the game, and when you consider the amount of game time the player spends dealing with these interactions it is fairly significant.

The trouble is, there is no real depth to them. There is no skill on our end to be learned or refined. They almost entirely end up being binary options that you end up learning after 5 goes at them. Then you just power through them clicking out of muscle memory without even reading the first word of the text. All interactions in this game are like this, press conferences, just click one of the two left boxes; player training interactions: put arm around, "you've been training well lately", etc.

None of this adds depth or complexity, it adds tedium. Nor do I accept that anyone could rightly argue that it adds to the immersion for them. They are such shallow and inconsequential things (if you game them right) that all they do is create 20s buffers between doing stuff that you want to do.

I would LOVE to see an argument for their continued inclusion without a drastic overhaul.

There is a lot of other stuff that could fall into this category too - shouts for instance. No immersion or depth, losing or drawing, shout encourage at every opportunity; winning, shout praise at every opportunity.

I for one am hopeful that a 'stripped back' game might actually be a good thing, if that is what we end up getting.

Edited September 10 by Craigus89

[spursfan]

1 hour ago, Novem9 said:

This may be related to the new interface. With new/updated modules for clubs. It is impossible to say from the outside what exactly the problem is. But imagine that you had a house made of LEGO, and you want to build the same one using bricks from another company. This is a very rough example, but putting a module from an old constructor into a new one will not be the best idea even for a temporary solution. Because then it will be harder to take it out than it seems

I'm so glad someone has finally use the Lego analogy: it's really an entirely new thing SI is doing with Unity.

I've heard from friends who actually code with Unity on other games, that it really isn't the easiest thing to do -- so I feel we need to let SI take the time needed to sort out what needs to be done to come up with a Minimum Viable Product (not many would like me using this term, but if we're making a new thing from reconstituted Lego, that's exactly what's happening here).

We would all love it to be seamless and 'like previous FMs' but it was never gonna happen exactly as we hope, was it?

To rebuild everything, it is completely reasonable to have it with fewer features, particularly those that have been sticking out like sore thumbs. 

So let's trust that whatever features that remain would work decently with Unity, and let the other stuff (which  I do like for immersion) find their way somewhere along the journey.

 

[Birdman10piyu]

Out of way all decisions too. They remove international management and introduce women's football.
 

Lets all be completely honest. I don't think anyone on here gives a rat's about women's sports let alone Football (maybe one or two of you will reply "I do!").

And now that they are coming to FM they've already made a big stink about the weight thing. Okay... so now that we've brought you into a game, we've played for years, they already want to alter to it to their liking? 

and is there really a market for people who want to play as Christine St Clair VS Messi?

I'm not against people who like women's Football but if SI was going through this major shift into a new engine, why not prioritize getting the game released FIRST then bringing women when it's ready.

Then, as usual, SI will start doing pre-orders soon before showing any content.

Miles then goes on to tell us how upset he is because he couldn't take a vacation. like we are supposed to feel sorry to him and still buy their game.

"Here's pre-oders for a potentional buggy game, please buy it because I couldn't take a vacation"

It's happening. SI has been selling out for a long time. They refused to address any issues in the last 10 years. They are bad at marketing and giving news.

If the ME isn't up to par or on the level they promise. I see no reason to buy this game and will move away from the genre until someone can compete with FM.

 

 

Edited September 10 by Birdman10piyu

[Novem9]

57 минут назад, jmlima сказал:

That's literally what the entire move to unity is.

Yes, and it is obvious that they are not on time. Otherwise there would not have been a release delay and so on.

[Craigus89]

Haven't checked in on this thread for nearly a week, I see the absolute clownshoes are still making themselves visible....

[jcw163]

2 hours ago, grade said:

I'm at a point, where we are getting women's football, whether you like it or not.

We are never going to see the percentage of players going to use women's football just the amount of investment SI has made to include that inside of football. Even if a low percentage of players are using them. (this is simply a theory, I'm not trying to insinuate anything... I hope there are a lot of people who will be using women's football. It is a proper feature in years in FM, not the upgrades we have been getting as of the last couple of years).

I for one would love to see the actual percentage of people using Press Conferences... I hardly believe people use that more than International Football.

Pre Match Press Conference, pre match interview, post match interview, post match press conference. Looking forward to the revolutionary new feature of half time interviews as well. All abysmal, get rid imo.

[jcw163]

20 minutes ago, Birdman10piyu said:

and is there really a market for people who want to play as Christine St Clair VS Messi?

 

"Christine St Clair" - some people don't even try smdh

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, jcw163 said:

 

"Christine St Clair" - some people don't even try smdh

Tbh i think its telling that of all the gripes people could have with the game (that have existed for some time) its womens football they complain about. Like international football wasnt perhaps a bit rubbish before that, or press conferences/interactions etc. 

Hell when it comes to the ME, bringing in womens football actively forces them to have to make it more varied (something they have spoken about so i look forward to putting that to the test) which a good portion of this forum said the game needed

[whatsupdoc]

1 hour ago, Birdman10piyu said:

 

Lets all be completely honest. I don't think anyone on here gives a rat's about women's sports let alone Football

 

 

Deal with it.

 

[forameuss]

Personally I think it's disgusting that SI haven't looked at the statistics of how many people are managing women's teams in FM.  Them not existing isn't a good enough excuse.

Edited September 10 by forameuss

[jmlima]

47 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Tbh i think its telling that of all the gripes people could have with the game (that have existed for some time) its womens football they complain about. Like international football wasnt perhaps a bit rubbish before that, or press conferences/interactions etc. 

Hell when it comes to the ME, bringing in womens football actively forces them to have to make it more varied (something they have spoken about so i look forward to putting that to the test) which a good portion of this forum said the game needed

I would also point out that the adding of female football is not to please some of these crusty sad sods that show up in this discussion. It's probably the single best action that can be taken to expand the game into a new market. A fast growing market at that.

[scythian12]

It seems there are a lot of people here who came to hate on women's football using the dev update as an excuse. I myself am actively disinterested in women's football (women's handball or water polo are however much more on equal footing when it comes to engagement compared to the men's version), but I do see a rationale of adding it, it could attract a whole new customer base which Sega / SI are after, they want to make more money after all, that is legitimate.

Also something about the "diehard" fans of the franchise who spend 1000s of hours with it may be invested and demand that their dedication carries some weight, but I have a bad piece of news for them. Someone who buys the game and plays maybe half a season and never touches it again pays the same amount of money. So if they lose say a generous 5% of the customer base due to this subset being angry what direction the product has been taken, yet can attract 25 % new customers, of whom maybe 30 % will be buying the game next year again, it's an easy decision which way to go.

There is however one crucial thing which all the bemoaners are partially getting at, yet given their agendas and preconceptions, seem to be able to articulate so adeptly as Miles has in his post. It's about the weight thing. I think the large portion of us can all agree it is rather inconsequential / an extremely niche detail and it should have never been mentioned. But with the mention, Miles made a very clear point: SI put in a lot of effort to every single minute detail of women's football. I personally expected a bit of the db to be extended, the contents of which will lead to inflammatory discussions about how the women are rated against the men (as it has been over at EA), and that's it. Yet evidently, there is much more to the modifications.

Then you are greeted with the message immediately to contrast: we couldn't care too much about international management, so it has to be cut, soz. It may be down to Unity, but the whole update (which btw is mostly aimed at the hardcore customer segment talked about above, not the conquest ones) has the overarching message (probably not intended to be this way, but Miles ain't a communications expert, so it came out like this): we really really really cared about women's football and have little time for the game now... which will set off people who will then feel reinforced in their worldview of certain sinister forces infiltrating every aspect of their life and come here and complain about things that have little to none to do with the actual game.

Moral of the story: get a comms representative SI.

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

 

 

Deal with it.

 

Too bad international management isn’t in the game.

[Icy]

2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Too bad international management isn’t in the game.

Well played, you made me spit my coffee 

[Novem9]

12 минут назад, Mars_Blackmon сказал:

Too bad international management isn’t in the game.

[jmlima]

13 minutes ago, scythian12 said:

It seems there are a lot of people here who came to hate on women's football using the dev update as an excuse. ...

Moral of the story: get a comms representative SI.

Snipped the post to avoid repeating, you answer your own question, it's 25% gain for 5% loss. If I were in SI's shoes, and those were the calculations, I would gladly invest on the 25% and dump the 5%.

[Novem9]

1 час назад, whatsupdoc сказал:

 

 

Deal with it.

 

I sincerely regret that there is no way to find out how many of these viewers are already playing FM or potential buyers of FM25. Without sarcasm, this would be an interesting posting of information

[davehanson]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

 

 

Deal with it.

 

Post is irrelevant unless you can ascertain just how many of those watching also play FM.

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, jmlima said:

I would also point out that the adding of female football is not to please some of these crusty sad sods that show up in this discussion. It's probably the single best action that can be taken to expand the game into a new market. A fast growing market at that.

I think SI's comms and approach haven't quite hit the mark, but you're firmly hitting the nail on the head here when it comes to new markets. I'd argue that they've probably moved too slowly on integrating it personally