FM 25 DEVELOPMENT UPDATE

[kiwityke1983]

5 minutes ago, jmlima said:

I mean, entirely agree with economic viability but... cannot remember which football management was that had a basic stat analysis pack and you could pay (back then was an external thing) to get a full professional stat analysis pack. Right of the top of my head, same could be done with training and create a club. Probably something could be done with scouting. The in game editor is already a DLC and keeps being released so it must sell in sufficient numbers to be worth the hassle and the pile on steam negative reviews it receives every year. 

The ingame editor has never been part of the game for free as far as I remember.

It's always been a paid for extra (I've actually never bought it).

If they took modes out and locked them behind a paywall, I personally can't see that many people buying them, plus the stink it would cause wouldn't be worth the hassle.

I just can't imagine locking enhanced features behind DLC for certain modules of the game is something SI would ever do.

I'm sure if there was something else they'd be able to sell to us as DLC they'd have done it by now.

Never say never of course, because I'm just making an educated guess.

[rp1966]

13 hours ago, Dbuk1 said:

Im intrigued to see based on Miles blog post about being laser focused and delivering woman’s football in the most authentic way possible what this actually means? This leads me to believe that it cannot simply be a new database and off you go. So people suggesting it is like adding a playable league must be incorrect. Or Miles is blowing smoke? 

I always took that to mean that graphics and animation had to be different for the women's game and that there would need to be a match engine (or code within a universal match engine) tuned specifically to the way the women's game plays compared to the men's game.

[jmlima]

20 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

...

I'm sure if there was something else they'd be able to sell to us as DLC they'd have done it by now.

Never say never of course, because I'm just making an educated guess.

Yeah, like 90% of the things in this thread this is speculation but, if they really go for mobile / consoles and, a lighter game proves more marketable (not unlikely at all) then I could see more in depth features being behind DLCs, as much as the 1% of total players that post here would cry murder. Again, it's all down to business decisions and cost-benefit analysis. I mean, if you embark of a big change like the one they have embarked on, pretty certain nothing was left off-the-table in terms of ideas to grow the brand and market share.

Edit - To say, even in this very same forum there are a not small number of people wanting a more streamlined, less bloated, less filled with fake depth game. So... even the faithful are being converted.

Edited September 12 by jmlima
to add another idea

[Craigus89]

If there was one thing that would kill this game guaranteed it would be micro-transactions. I think SI know that and would never dream of introducing that sort of thing. It's the cancer of the gaming world, and a game like this could not stand it.

[jcw163]

16 hours ago, XaW said:

Stop moving the goalposts and show me proof of there being stakeholders outside SI deciding women's football has priority. Do I need to quote your message where you said that again?

Not trying to be funny XaW but if this conversation was between two non-mod users you'd have kicked them both out by now.

[forameuss]

Just now, Craigus89 said:

If there was one thing that would kill this game guaranteed it would be micro-transactions. I think SI know that and would never dream of introducing that sort of thing. It's the cancer of the gaming world, and a game like this could not stand it.

Think that's wishful thinking to be honest.  If they bring them in - which I don't believe they ever will - it'll cause untold salt and rage on here/reddit etc, but ultimately, it'll blow over and become the norm.  Because that kind of thing is the norm now, unfortunately, and FM is pretty much an outlier in that they've largely stayed away up to now.

[scythian12]

38 minutes ago, jmlima said:

Yeah, like 90% of the things in this thread this is speculation but, if they really go for mobile / consoles and, a lighter game proves more marketable (not unlikely at all) then I could see more in depth features being behind DLCs, as much as the 1% of total players that post here would cry murder. Again, it's all down to business decisions and cost-benefit analysis. I mean, if you embark of a big change like the one they have embarked on, pretty certain nothing was left off-the-table in terms of ideas to grow the brand and market share.

Edit - To say, even in this very same forum there are a not small number of people wanting a more streamlined, less bloated, less filled with fake depth game. So... even the faithful are being converted.

I am all for press conferences hidden behind a DLC.

[XaW]

19 minutes ago, jcw163 said:

Not trying to be funny XaW but if this conversation was between two non-mod users you'd have kicked them both out by now.

Nah, I would had just asked them to stop, I rarely kick people out of threads unless they have gotten a clear warning. I just hate people throwing out accusations and never taking ownership to the claims they make.

Fair though though, I should have stopped it earlier.

[jmlima]

6 minutes ago, scythian12 said:

I am all for press conferences hidden behind a DLC.

Idle 5mins speculation but, they way I would envisage that scenario it would be, in the 'normal' game every single of your pressers would be reduced to a single interaction, but you could not delegate them. In the 'dlc' mode, a development would have been made (and it would have to one heck of a development!) and the pressers would be full bloat and... you could delegate them. So, in 'dlc', there would be two incentives, you would gain the further depth of the pressers and the ability to delegate them...

Would this be economically feasible? In this particular instance, doubt it. Can the model be made to work? Yes. Are SI interested / considering this? There are zero indications of that thus far.

[-Jef-]

One interesting thought. Do you guys think it would be viable for FM to allow us adjust the calendar year for the game? They for sure allow and support modding and in the last few years we have had amazing databases with most of the impactful players coming through as newgens down the line. But the immersion breaker was always that you had Giggs, Scholes, Becks on the pitch but the year waas 2024. Do you think they will allow us to just adjust the calendar year start but let us load whatever database we want?

[davehanson]

Perhaps DLC was the wrong words. Their (SI/Sega) words were: 

Community engagement is is also a critical success factor as we transition towards towards a game as a service business model designed to provide players with enhanced gameplay experience through additional content and subscription-based offerings.

I took that as DLC, but it might be something else - I don't really play other games so not sure.

[DJ Sir Matthew]

7 minutes ago, davehanson said:

Perhaps DLC was the wrong words. Their (SI/Sega) words were: 

Community engagement is is also a critical success factor as we transition towards towards a game as a service business model designed to provide players with enhanced gameplay experience through additional content and subscription-based offerings.

I took that as DLC, but it might be something else - I don't really play other games so not sure.

I think that was what triggered my reasoning that modding might be behind a pay wall in the future (a bit like Bethesda tries with their latest game?)? So, you want realistic/replica stadiums? Pay. You want the players look like their real-life counterpart (or like their avatar generated face in case of newgens)? Pay. You want the logo's and kits? Pay. etc 

[santy001]

Games as a service has been everyone's desire since WoW had 12 million active subscriptions at like $8 a month. GTA online is probably the current top dog in that field but you can't just produce it on demand. Look at the last 20 years failed MMO's and then games like Concord recently, Kill the Justice League, Anthem. Even studios who've proven they can create games that succeed like Rockstar failed miserably to do it again with RDR2 and the online mode it had.

The fear of not being able to do it with GTA 6 is one of the reasons I think (paired with the absurd money GTA 5 is still bringing in) that we haven't yet seen the sequel and there was little impetus to get it out before now.

Crusader Kings 2 did a decent take on a game as a subscription where you could get the game and all DLC playable for a monthly fee, but that was around the time CK3 came out. 

Sega were incredibly NFT focused a little while back when that was all the rage, but Ubisoft beat everyone to the punch and proved just how utterly dreadful an idea for gaming that was. Sometimes I imagine you just have to sit back and wait for something new and shiny to take the interest of the companies who are at the top of the pyramid at distributor/publisher level. That and they need to keep in mind that the last couple of years have shown that an awful lot of people in senior roles at those companies have completely misjudged the gaming landscape. 

[davehanson]

23 minutes ago, santy001 said:

Games as a service has been everyone's desire since WoW had 12 million active subscriptions at like $8 a month. GTA online is probably the current top dog in that field but you can't just produce it on demand. Look at the last 20 years failed MMO's and then games like Concord recently, Kill the Justice League, Anthem. Even studios who've proven they can create games that succeed like Rockstar failed miserably to do it again with RDR2 and the online mode it had.

The fear of not being able to do it with GTA 6 is one of the reasons I think (paired with the absurd money GTA 5 is still bringing in) that we haven't yet seen the sequel and there was little impetus to get it out before now.

Crusader Kings 2 did a decent take on a game as a subscription where you could get the game and all DLC playable for a monthly fee, but that was around the time CK3 came out. 

Sega were incredibly NFT focused a little while back when that was all the rage, but Ubisoft beat everyone to the punch and proved just how utterly dreadful an idea for gaming that was. Sometimes I imagine you just have to sit back and wait for something new and shiny to take the interest of the companies who are at the top of the pyramid at distributor/publisher level. That and they need to keep in mind that the last couple of years have shown that an awful lot of people in senior roles at those companies have completely misjudged the gaming landscape. 

So, as I said because I am not really a 'gamer' as such - I play FM and Total War- that's about it, is it you don't own the game then - you just subscribe to it? A bit like gamepass?

[Fat_Frank8]

49 minutes ago, -Jef- said:

One interesting thought. Do you guys think it would be viable for FM to allow us adjust the calendar year for the game? They for sure allow and support modding and in the last few years we have had amazing databases with most of the impactful players coming through as newgens down the line. But the immersion breaker was always that you had Giggs, Scholes, Becks on the pitch but the year waas 2024. Do you think they will allow us to just adjust the calendar year start but let us load whatever database we want?

I like that idea but my guess is that it would be an extremely complex feature and too time consuming compared to the impact it would have. I imagine the licensing would be a problem as well. 

[jmlima]

12 minutes ago, davehanson said:

So, as I said because I am not really a 'gamer' as such - I play FM and Total War- that's about it, is it you don't own the game then - you just subscribe to it? A bit like gamepass?

Sort of but yeah. You don't own anything in digital only games, most of all those that require a server where 'your' assets are stored. There's always something in the EULA noting that the assets are not your own and can be withdrawn at any time by the provider. Just ask the people that invested in Duels of the Planeswalkers.

[scythian12]

4 hours ago, davehanson said:

So, as I said because I am not really a 'gamer' as such - I play FM and Total War- that's about it, is it you don't own the game then - you just subscribe to it? A bit like gamepass?

Kinda, but with the game being kept "fresh" and access to DLCs / continuously improving features. Paradox is a good example, their Clausewitz engine games are a kind of hybrid where you can buy the basegame, but for it to be up to date with all the features you have to buy the constant stream of DLCs (about two every year, not to speak of the cosmetics). They also offer the subscription model as an alternative pointed out above.

In a very abstract way, you could already consider FM a subscription-based model, the customers mainly pay for the updated DB each year. (The development cycle is certainly quicker than for other strategy franchises). I guess the main differentiator in the above examples to a true subscription-based model is the fact that you can still play the game without a monthly fee with the features already acquired - on a subscription, you would have no access to play whatsoever once you do not pay anymore.

Edited September 12 by scythian12

[dannyo666]

Is it stupid to think touchline shouts never worked at all the last few years now that this will be gone for 25?......Some shouts change moral a bit  but does this actual impact the game engine for your team.?...So many things Si could have rid of but touchline shouts i did not see coming unless they were never actually doing anything

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, dannyo666 said:

Is it stupid to think touchline shouts never worked at all the last few years now that this will be gone for 25?......Some shouts change moral a bit  but does this actual impact the game engine for your team.?...So many things Si could have rid of but touchline shouts i did not see coming unless they were never actually doing anything

More important than morale, it did affect pressure/motivation/confidence of players. Not a lot, but it did. 

[dannyo666]

5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

More important than morale, it did affect pressure/motivation/confidence of players. Not a lot, but it did. 

Yes agreed....Shouts are a massive part of the game,just that 1% extra can make a huge difference....Makes no sense to scrap an actual working feature.....

[HUNT3R]

5 minutes ago, dannyo666 said:

Yes agreed....Shouts are a massive part of the game,just that 1% extra can make a huge difference....Makes no sense to scrap an actual working feature.....

I wouldn't call it a massive part of the game. Someone made a point earlier (somewhere in the last 32 pages) that it was spamming Encourage every 10 mins and once you score, Praise every 10 mins. That's obviously hyperbole (a word I never knew before coming to forums) but perhaps there is some truth there. If it is the case that a lot of people do that, then there's not much of a strategic element to it. It seems that Touchline Shouts will get a re-think and be re-worked, which is probably for the best. We still have control over players' morale, confidence, pressure and motivation through team talks, which had much more of an effect compared to touchline shouts.

[jmlima]

10 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I wouldn't call it a massive part of the game. Someone made a point earlier (somewhere in the last 32 pages) that it was spamming Encourage every 10 mins and once you score, Praise every 10 mins. That's obviously hyperbole (a word I never knew before coming to forums) but perhaps there is some truth there. If it is the case that a lot of people do that, then there's not much of a strategic element to it. It seems that Touchline Shouts will get a re-think and be re-worked, which is probably for the best. We still have control over players' morale, confidence, pressure and motivation through team talks, which had much more of an effect compared to touchline shouts.

Well, I use similar gamey tactics for the team talks and team meetings, so... for example, if you start a team meeting, introduce yourself and immediately end the meeting, you always get a positive effect. Truth is, it's very hard if not impossible to prevent people from finding the way to exploit a feature.

[dannyo666]

13 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I wouldn't call it a massive part of the game. Someone made a point earlier (somewhere in the last 32 pages) that it was spamming Encourage every 10 mins and once you score, Praise every 10 mins. That's obviously hyperbole (a word I never knew before coming to forums) but perhaps there is some truth there. If it is the case that a lot of people do that, then there's not much of a strategic element to it. It seems that Touchline Shouts will get a re-think and be re-worked, which is probably for the best. We still have control over players' morale, confidence, pressure and motivation through team talks, which had much more of an effect compared to touchline shouts.

I guess everyone plays the game different but its a massive part of the game for me personally when I'm playing a match....It adds a sense of control and immerses me even more into the game..FM is a sim after all...Just my 2 cents

[HUNT3R]

34 minutes ago, jmlima said:

Well, I use similar gamey tactics for the team talks

There are at least drawbacks to spamming the same talk over and over there. Plus, it makes much more sense to use a team talk that's in context with the match events.

Just a basic example, it can be a good idea to praise your team for being 1-0 up. It isn't always a good idea (or, put another way, there are much better options) to praise them for being 1-0 up at half time when you're on a 10 match winning streak.

[Kickballz]

34 minutes ago, jmlima said:

Well, I use similar gamey tactics for the team talks and team meetings, so... for example, if you start a team meeting, introduce yourself and immediately end the meeting, you always get a positive effect. Truth is, it's very hard if not impossible to prevent people from finding the way to exploit a feature.

I haven't given a team meeting or a press conference for 15 years in FM versions, and probably about 90 years in FM game time.

I have consistently said these features are a load of **** and they can **** my *****

...and breathe...

[oche balboa]

Everyone should chill out about the inclusion of Women's League, No one is forced to play it it's an option and no one "Hates Women" if they decide not too

England Lionesses was the only real interest i had in Women's Football, This isn't going to happen but maybe if i do get FM25 i might have a go at one of the club teams in the future, 

 It shouldn't matter to people that they have been included 

[Kickballz]

13 minutes ago, oche balboa said:

Everyone should chill out about the inclusion of Women's League, No one is forced to play it it's an option and no one "Hates Women" if they decide not too

England Lionesses was the only real interest i had in Women's Football, This isn't going to happen but maybe if i do get FM25 i might have a go at one of the club teams in the future, 

 It shouldn't matter to people that they have been included 

Not many people seem to be bothered from what I can see. It is either positive or indifferent. 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, dannyo666 said:

Is it stupid to think touchline shouts never worked at all the last few years now that this will be gone for 25?......Some shouts change moral a bit  but does this actual impact the game engine for your team.?...So many things Si could have rid of but touchline shouts i did not see coming unless they were never actually doing anything

 

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

More important than morale, it did affect pressure/motivation/confidence of players. Not a lot, but it did. 

Back in the day I wrote, with SI dev’s input, a basic guide for Touchline Shouts (found here).

In a nutshell they are Match Engine modifiers, designed to influence player body language and Morale.  They’re pretty situational, short term and are influenced by various factors, so not all shouts would affect different players in the same way.  In the right circumstances they could make the difference in the outcome of a match.

Clearly things have moved on since that guide was written but - anecdotally - the way I play most saves now tend to use very few (if any) tactical instructions, focussing more on using Shouts.  I do pretty well.  So personally I’m disappointed Shouts are being removed, not only for that reason but also I find it odd to think that a football game pushed as “realistic” will only let us make tactical changes during a match and not let us offer encouragement/berate our players etc from the sidelines.  Hopefully a new improved version will return in the future.

[Los_Culés]

1 hour ago, jmlima said:

Well, I use similar gamey tactics for the team talks and team meetings, so... for example, if you start a team meeting, introduce yourself and immediately end the meeting, you always get a positive effect. Truth is, it's very hard if not impossible to prevent people from finding the way to exploit a feature.

Hahaha , I will be doing it from now on 

[dannyo666]

18 minutes ago, herne79 said:

 

Back in the day I wrote, with SI dev’s input, a basic guide for Touchline Shouts (found here).

In a nutshell they are Match Engine modifiers, designed to influence player body language and Morale.  They’re pretty situational, short term and are influenced by various factors, so not all shouts would affect different players in the same way.  In the right circumstances they could make the difference in the outcome of a match.

Clearly things have moved on since that guide was written but - anecdotally - the way I play most saves now tend to use very few (if any) tactical instructions, focussing more on using Shouts.  I do pretty well.  So personally I’m disappointed Shouts are being removed, not only for that reason but also I find it odd to think that a football game pushed as “realistic” will only let us make tactical changes during a match and not let us offer encouragement/berate our players etc from the sidelines.  Hopefully a new improved version will return in the future.

Great guide-Just had a look there.......Very useful-I have not seen this before

[talhak]

5 hours ago, davehanson said:

Can I ask a 'cynical' question - I know how this is going to sound before I ask it but I have wondered over the last couple of weeks since the announcement.

Does the Unity engine/platform give SI/Sega more opportunities to upsell - DLC etc than their own in-house engine? 

The in-house platform has absolutely no impact on this.

[wazzaflow10]

On 12/09/2024 at 04:13, davehanson said:

I can only go by things that I have read - things that SI/Sega have said, maybe not DLC as such, but subscription based services.

I don't think you can have an FM subscription service because of licenses and changes in league rules year to year. You'd break a lot of people's long terms saves if you took leagues or licenses out of the game like that. Even  EU/CK games break after updates if mechanics are changed. The game is best sold as a standalone entity. I don't see how you could possibly have a continuously updated FM game without creating a massive headache for developer and player.

Subscription services might be in reference to partnering with netfliix or appleTV to create access via bundled services. To them it might be mobile is a younger generation friendly way to introduce the game before buying/committing to the full fat PC version. So exploring an option where they reduce the burden of entry might create more demand for the PC/Console version.

Edited September 13 by wazzaflow10

[Kickballz]

1 hour ago, BoomerX said:

What is the release date?

Fluid.

Was earlier and not getting later...

[DavutOzkan]

22 hours ago, Weller1980 said:

With FM25 release date being pushed out surly now is a good time to extend the public beta?

The normal 2-3 weeks is simply not enough time to make any meaningful feedback and changes and with the new UI and Graphics engine a longer public beta period is surly a good thing?

Many years ago we used to get a demo 2 weeks prior to release and then it changed to beta release 2 weeks prior and I've always thought its not enough time and to me seems like a token gesture from SI to play the game early at risk of bugs. Some bugs are so deep routed and they are not discovered until you've completed a couple seasons.

The early release bit is not a public beta, it's just early access. This is despite the game last year having a "this is a beta version" in the corner, SI continued to insist throughout that period that it was not a beta. 

[jmlima]

20 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

I don't think you can have an FM subscription service because of licenses and changes in league rules year to year. You'd break a lot of people's long terms saves ....

You can already move saves between versions.

[forameuss]

On a subscription model, currently you'd probably pay on average 30 quid a year for the game.  Some may be cheaper, some more expensive, but let's stick to 30 for example.  So if you're pricing it at anything more than £2.50 a month, it's going to feel like a bit of a rip off.  I can't see them going at that price point, particularly as they'll be more subject to people letting subscriptions lapse (hiya FML, hiya pal!), so what exactly can they offer if they do come in at a higher price point?

I can't understand why people would support a subscription service honestly.

[jmlima]

7 minutes ago, forameuss said:

...

I can't understand why people would support a subscription service honestly.

I mean, subscription are associated with being cheaper than buying the full content individually so, unless they break the game into parts, not sure what the subscription would entail.

I can see how it can be broken into parts (3d, 2d, analytics, visual content, etc) but it's hard to see this being popular. Having said that, WOTC survived killing entirely an entire online game where people had spent a lot of money. There's no lack of players on their new online game, despite the precedent. I guess fools are easily parted with their money.

Edited September 12 by jmlima

[wazzaflow10]

1 hour ago, jmlima said:

You can already move saves between versions.

Still two separate games that were sold in the store. I can still go back and play 23 as it's own game. And if you look at the details the games play different based on what league rules are in effect. A ported 23 save does not have ESC slots for English teams.

A single continuously updated FM would force you to be playing the current build model. There's no way developers will support save games indefinitely. At some point your save will break like it does CK/EU and there will be no way to recover it. That would annoy a good amount of people playing the games whether you play a single long term save for 30 years or play 2 years over a long period of time. Unlike CK/EU, FM does not have a natural end and often the game doesn't fully show its capabilities until its 100% regens.

Maybe you can get away with this on mobile where the simulation moves quicker through time and there's an upper limit of years. I'd wager on that decision being a disaster with a lot of long time fans of the series on PC.

[RandomGuy.]

7 hours ago, herne79 said:

So personally I’m disappointed Shouts are being removed, not only for that reason but also I find it odd to think that a football game pushed as “realistic” will only let us make tactical changes during a match and not let us offer encouragement/berate our players etc from the sidelines.  Hopefully a new improved version will return in the future.

I'm sure I've read shouts weren't working the way they were planned and when looking at it fully they seemed illogical as your shout wasn't instant and instead waited until the next stoppage in play (which could cause issues of "praising" your players at 0-0 just to actually "shout" it straight after you concede).

I don't use shouts enough to pay enough attention to know if thats true.

[Russell10]

Would love another tier of the English football pyramid to be added.

[spursfan]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

I'm sure I've read shouts weren't working the way they were planned and when looking at it fully they seemed illogical as your shout wasn't instant and instead waited until the next stoppage in play (which could cause issues of "praising" your players at 0-0 just to actually "shout" it straight after you concede).

I don't use shouts enough to pay enough attention to know if thats true.

Yes, officially mentioned on 27 June:-

https://www.footballmanager.com/news/development-update-football-manager-25

[\'Appy \'Ammer]

4 hours ago, wazzaflow10 said:

often the game doesn't fully show its capabilities until its 100% regens.

I have never played long enough to see this, and I am now intrigued as to what the full capabilities are?

[Kcinnay]

Poor Miles, thinking: I'm gonna write a blogpost to update the fans. If the Roman Empire existed in the universe of this forum, a postmodern Nero would play a winch while the city is burning.

Joking aside: wait & see. Clumsy communication? Lackluster salesmanship? Underestimating the necessary timeframe to deliver a top notch product while keeping the paying (!) customers? Abso-flippin'-lutely! But in a couple of years, these hard times (from a game perspective of course) will be worth it. International management like it should've been for a long time! The complete football universe! (Because yes, women's football is football as well, in some parts better than what the male counterparts provide, and if you read some tactical blogs, sometimes the tactical experiments there are way more interesting.) Who knows what will be added following years? AI press conferences, so you should give real answers? A TD or DoF who appoints and commands YOU and not the other way around? Having to earn the honour of being the T1 and the DoF? There are always bumps in the road, and the latest update was horrible from a 'come on, Barbie, let's go party'-perspective, but I for one am looking forward to my first save as a manager from a women's team. First time I can do in FM what I've done in real life.

Graphics wise I hope it's not too shiny. More realistic stadiums, grass and haircuts, but them be very distinctive puppets, no counterimages - would be way too time consuming for a result that doesn't matter, given screen resolutions and long run gaming with newgens coming into play.

Oh, and pressing, ball oriented pressing, hunting in packs, something that differentiaties man marking from a shadow version of 'a' zonal marking. Defensively, it's all about overloads as well, which are very difficult to create. Give me that, women's football (or let's say: not just men's football) and a bit more tactical control, clarity, challenges and I'm totally fine.

[wazzaflow10]

1 hour ago, \'Appy \'Ammer said:

I have never played long enough to see this, and I am now intrigued as to what the full capabilities are?

Well for starters newgens have bad personalities. That in of itself make the game world more interesting because you can have star players that just have bad attitudes. Reputation effects of real players tends to disappear for international selection (still can be a bit wonky at times though). And it removes any sort of wonderkid hunting at the game start where you know for instance the name of a player you scouts would never find who has a high PA. Everything has to be done by scouting or stats filtering and you don't really know someone's PA unless you've looked under the hood.

Even 5-10 years into the future is a much more dynamic, interesting world than game start because it starts to become its own universe.

[jayedson]

12 hours ago, herne79 said:

 

Back in the day I wrote, with SI dev’s input, a basic guide for Touchline Shouts (found here).

In a nutshell they are Match Engine modifiers, designed to influence player body language and Morale.  They’re pretty situational, short term and are influenced by various factors, so not all shouts would affect different players in the same way.  In the right circumstances they could make the difference in the outcome of a match.

Clearly things have moved on since that guide was written but - anecdotally - the way I play most saves now tend to use very few (if any) tactical instructions, focussing more on using Shouts.  I do pretty well.  So personally I’m disappointed Shouts are being removed, not only for that reason but also I find it odd to think that a football game pushed as “realistic” will only let us make tactical changes during a match and not let us offer encouragement/berate our players etc from the sidelines.  Hopefully a new improved version will return in the future.

This is pretty much how I understand the current version of shouts to work.

So, with that out of the way, the first thing to understand about Touchline Team Talks is that none of them alter any tactical settings.  I've seen articles written before that talk about changing team/player instructions, mentality and so on.  This is not the case.  Touchline Team Talks affect player morale and body language, not tactical settings.

Remember - none of these (or any of the others) alter tactical settings.  They appear to be more closely linked to types of pressure your players may be feeling at various stages of a match and quite contextual in relation to this. 

The above contradicts Miles' recent X posts though:

(https://x.com/milesSI/status/1807054524420374847

"In the actual match themselves, they affect instructions - team and/or player."

This is where I've been a bit lost on the reasoning for removing shouts. Who is at fault here? Miles? Nic Madden? In a way I'd prefer SI were lying way back when this guidance was contributed to, as the alternative would be Miles is mistaken now or that the inconsistent truth has been sat on for years.

Shouts aren't a massive deal by overall game standards but I feel some on the forum are a bit put out by the prioritisation of tasks / feature inclusion / introduction / removal and the justification behind their importance. Should a game take a few steps backwards (international management / touchline shouts / various game modes) for one step forwards (women's football)? This is all separated from the move to unity which is best described as being a 'given'.

Or should the base game and its current features be stabilised, albeit in an unsatisfactory but perfectly playable state, before moving onto finalising new features / game modes?

I have a huge bias as I speak as a player who uses touchline shouts religiously, enjoys international management as part of journeyman and challenge saves, and who also recently started building saves based on interesting restrictions - one being playing as Arnold Schwarzenegger, taking over an Austrian team in the second tier and trying to reach the pinnacle of European competition while employing a transfer strategy of only recruiting players over x height, over y weight and over z strength (tall, heavy, strong in case it wasn't obvious and yes, full-backs and wide men are hard to come by). All of which will now no longer possible until reintroduced in some form. 

 

[JonasWS]

I've been looking forward to the fm25, now I'm not going to buy it.  It may well be that there were only 5.6% who used the function, but it adds depth to the game that the option is there.  I have always managed a club for the first several seasons, and then tried to get the job as national coach for Denmark late in the game.  The feature hasn't always been used, but the storytelling you have in your head is a huge part of the game, and it's neglected here by making it up in percentages.  it annoys me to bring women's football into the game that no one wanted and remove an important feature that no one wanted removed.  you forget your fans.  it will be the first sc since CM 1 that I don't buy

[H_a_a_k_o_n]

1 hour ago, JonasWS said:

I've been looking forward to the fm25, now I'm not going to buy it.  It may well be that there were only 5.6% who used the function, but it adds depth to the game that the option is there.  I have always managed a club for the first several seasons, and then tried to get the job as national coach for Denmark late in the game.  The feature hasn't always been used, but the storytelling you have in your head is a huge part of the game, and it's neglected here by making it up in percentages.  it annoys me to bring women's football into the game that no one wanted and remove an important feature that no one wanted removed.  you forget your fans.  it will be the first sc since CM 1 that I don't buy

Nah, you will buy it. Just like me. Not overwhelmed by news, but as soon as december kicks in your are dragged in . We have all been here before. Negativity (Wibble/wobble, 2D/3D, new GUI). I am certain it will still be a great game.

[Novem9]

8 часов назад, wazzaflow10 сказал:

Well for starters newgens have bad personalities. That in of itself make the game world more interesting because you can have star players that just have bad attitudes. Reputation effects of real players tends to disappear for international selection (still can be a bit wonky at times though). And it removes any sort of wonderkid hunting at the game start where you know for instance the name of a player you scouts would never find who has a high PA. Everything has to be done by scouting or stats filtering and you don't really know someone's PA unless you've looked under the hood.

Even 5-10 years into the future is a much more dynamic, interesting world than game start because it starts to become its own universe.

Once upon a time I dreamed of the possibility of creating not a manager, but a player. And to be able to announce the end of my career at any time to become a manager. In this way, my character would have a background, and the game world itself would be something new. 

But FM still has a long way to go for this to make real sense.

[Novem9]

I wonder if the new engine will allow the developers to get rid of the big final patches in March? 

[jmlima]

9 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

I wonder if the new engine will allow the developers to get rid of the big final patches in March? 

Big? Ah. Unity is the king of big patches. 1gb, 2gb, 7gb, for a 7gb app is nothing new.

Edit - To say, of course, heavily dependent on much you keep updating graphics, sounds and back of the house stuff.

 

Edited September 13 by jmlima