FM 25 DEVELOPMENT UPDATE

[Dbuk1]

6 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

And pay all their bills and staff for the next year how?

They are a business, suggestions that they should shelve this release or sell it for half price etc are totally out of touch with reality.

I will preorder fm26 for double price right now. Refund within 30 days of release if the next game is rubbish

[forameuss]

4 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Does the switch to unity necessarily imply a changed ME?

To what extent?

"Changed" is a massive spectrum.  Of course it'll have changes, but if by that you mean changed wholesale and written from the ground up, I'd be amazed if it was.  I can't see them throwing away decades of development, although it is possible.  I imagine they'll reuse the bits they can get away with reusing, rework others and build around it.  But we're not going to get exposed to that.

[CaptainSa]

2 minutes ago, Metjuw said:

Based on what I read in the latest blog, along with the June update, I've decided that this will be the first edition of the game that I won't be purchasing since FM 2005. You've completely ruined the game by removing core features that made FM what it is today, especially the recent removal of international management. Instead of enhancing the game to make it more realistic, you've taken away what made it special. I primarily play in single-player mode, and you have no concrete data on how I engage with the game, so don't try to justify these decisions with misleading statistics.

What core features have been removed?

[Craigus89]

8 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

IF 2 players of different heights (but the same JR) jump for a ball, they should be able to reach the same height with their head. A 6'4" player will have around 14-18 for JR (both set by researchers and as newgens) and a 5'7" player between around 4-8 for JR so they cannot ever be the same.

 

As mentioned earlier, the 6'4" might not even have to jump against the 5'7" player in some cases.

My point was assuming they had the same jumping reach as the shorter one was more athletic. Treated essentially identically by the match engine. 

[Lord Rowell]

1 minute ago, Metjuw said:

Based on what I read in the latest blog, along with the June update, I've decided that this will be the first edition of the game that I won't be purchasing since FM 2005. You've completely ruined the game by removing core features that made FM what it is today, especially the recent removal of international management. Instead of enhancing the game to make it more realistic, you've taken away what made it special. I primarily play in single-player mode, and you have no concrete data on how I engage with the game, so don't try to justify these decisions with misleading statistics.

Actually they have colossal amounts of data on how single players play the game as FM / Steam (however it works) sends this kind of data back to SI.
There is an opt-out / in (can't recall which way around) so if you made that change, its true for you - but factually incorrect to imply that they don't have this data - they very much do.

I always leave it on - if it helps SI all good.

[Dbuk1]

3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Hiya Nigel, hiya pal. 

I always appreciate feedback

[dpt8544]

Realistically I never once looked at a player's weight so who cares. It's definitely concerning just how much has been cut from the game, basically every type of play other than the bog standard managing a club is gone. no create a team, no international management, no draft. combined with the delayed release, the team is clearly scrambling to finish this game. the concern for me is how many bugs there will be on release. i feel my concern is justified since fm24 was a new low in that regard. I really hope fm25 is not even worse.

[Caokrodilo]

RIP San Marino Challenge

[jimbo22]

5 minutes ago, sufcdan said:

you obviously missed my part about parting with cash for a database update (even if it was a couple during the year) there would also be other ways to generate some form of substantial income I'm sure. They can't be running on a breakeven basis. Just my two cents anyways

Never going to happen, absolute fantasy to even think it would/could. No one is paying for a data update when a daily update can be had from places like Sortitoutsi. Granted that doesnt reach everyone but financially your suggestion simply isnt feasible in the real world. SI isnt a EA where it has multiple games coming out over the year that will bring money in to keep the lights on should something drastic happen.

[Costav]

Just now, CaptainSa said:

What core features have been removed?

Although in-match shouts were not working at 100% of their potential, they can be considered as one of the main features of the match-day experience.

I mean, is like having a coach that dos not speak a word for the entire match...

[Craigus89]

7 minutes ago, Dbuk1 said:

Removing weights is pointless woke. If people want to be horrible about someone online do you think they need to check the fm24 profile page? 

4 minutes ago, Dbuk1 said:

I will preorder fm26 for double price right now. Refund within 30 days of release if the next game is rubbish

Cool takes bro.

 

Edited September 4 by Craigus89

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Craigus89 said:

My point was assuming they had the same jumping reach as the shorter one was more athletic. Treated essentially identically by the match engine. 

Yeah, that's reflected in the game. In my example, the 6'4" player is either a poor jumper (14 JR) or quite good (18 JR).

If both players have the same JR, they can reach the same 'height', so we both agree on that. 

[whatsupdoc]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

Yeah, that's reflected in the game. In my example, the 6'4" player is either a poor jumper (14 JR) or quite good (18 JR).

If both players have the same JR, they can reach the same 'height', so we both agree on that. 

This has been discussed so many times and I'm still not sure what the right answer is.

If two players have identical jumping reach, strength, bravery, aggression etc (every relevant stat) and one is taller than the other, is the taller guy better in the air? Is there a definitive answer to this from SI?

Edited September 4 by whatsupdoc

[Jimmyenglish]

Bit disappointed with this update. I always like to get a World cup and a European trophy.

I understand that international management is a bit of a joke since you can win 99% of games for 3 years then get drawn the best team in a quarter final. Lose a close game and it's immediate sacking. I always thought adding a bit more context into the board decisions of international management would improve it. Or least fix the issue where every top flight manager who doesn't win the trophy gets sacked.

Not wholly concerned about weight, I always assumed it functioned similar to height whereby it would determine boundaries for attributes. In height's case it is a good barometer for  jumping reach for that player. For weight I assumed it might be tied directly to strength but loosely affect the limits of other physical attributes, e.g. a heavier player might be less agile or slower. Though I don't know if there were any studies done on that metric.

Anecdotally you can kind of see this by just looking at those attributes. If Tubbs Lardy has an acceleration and pace of 6 at 16 he probably isn't going to be fast at his peak. Likewise I always find players with a 5 in jumping reach with blistering pace and acceleration. Finding a good mix of both in regens is like gold dust, with Haaland proverbially taking the cake in that respect.

In the case of the low jumping reach guy they are probably below 5 ft 6 and the slow guy is on the heavy side (or tall and thus a higher weight) I think displaying height and weight is useful for those that mask attributes so removing one is a bit annoying but I can also say from my point of view I've never looked at their weight in any meaningful way.

 

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, whatsupdoc said:

If two players have identical jumping reach, strength, bravery, aggression etc (every relevant stat) and one is taller than the other, is the taller guy better in the air? Is there a definitive answer to this from SI?

Can two players with the same JR 'reach' the same height. The answer is yes.

If every attribute is the same and the only difference is their height, they're basically equal if both players jump.

[Dbuk1]

6 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Cool takes bro.

 

I'm actually being honest

[aj6658]

13 minutes ago, Dbuk1 said:

Removing weights is pointless woke. If people want to be horrible about someone online do you think they need to check the fm24 profile page? 

Weight is something used against women (and men). Can see a scenario that a woman footballer has her FM page and weight shown after a bad performance and what not. The Joey Bartons and his incel followers love hating on women. 

Like how often do people actually check the weight when doing transfers - its such a non-topic 

 

[Costav]

4 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Can two players with the same JR 'reach' the same height. The answer is yes.

If every attribute is the same and the only difference is their height, they're basically equal if both players jump.

Mmm...that means that conceptually height and weight do not have an impact in the ME (and in my opinion this is is wrong).
I would have thought about it the other way around when writing the script of the ME.

Edited September 4 by Costav

[Lord Rowell]

1 minute ago, aj6658 said:

Weight is something used against women (and men). Can see a scenario that a woman footballer has her FM page and weight shown after a bad performance and what not. The Joey Bartons and his incel followers love hating on women. 

Like how often do people actually check the weight when doing transfers - its such a non-topic 

 

Exactly! SI have made a good decision here.

[Bootador]

Just now, Costav said:

Mmm...that means that conceptually height and weight do not have an impact in the ME (and in my opinion is wrong).
I would have thought about it the other way around when writing the script of the ME.

They have no impact, purely aesthetic.

[dosh]

Despite the recent development updates, there still hasn't been any actual gameplay footage, not even a single screenshot. Many of the features that were once integral to FM's identity are now being cut under the excuse of "low usage rates." Did the SI conduct any preliminary surveys among existing users regarding the introduction of women's football and its potential "usage rates"?

The game director has announced that they will not be attending events where they could directly communicate with the players. How are we supposed to connect with the game company now?

The release date for the new game has been delayed due to development challenges. We still remember the early version of FM24, which was riddled with bugs despite using the existing engine. Will FM25 really be released in a polished state? Is this the last delay we’ll see for the new release?

[Costav]

4 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Exactly! SI have made a good decision here.

4 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Weight is something used against women (and men).

Same is for the color of the skin. I do not recall SI removing faces/pictures because of racism....

4 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Like how often do people actually check the weight when doing transfers - its such a non-topic 

The fact that you don't look at it does not make it a non-topic. You just don't look at it.

[oche balboa]

Said elsewhere but this has the feel of CM4 all over again. Removing International Management is massive minus and even though it should be improved losing that and having to pay £40 for it isn't for me and i might skip a version for the 1st time since 1998. 

[oche balboa]

7 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Exactly! SI have made a good decision here.

It's a nothing thing and should be in the game as a profile enhancer 

[aj6658]

Very little confidence in this game. 

Very much going to be a facelift game and with all the same bugs (overpowered Genpressing, awful awful squad building AI, terrible transfer modules) 

So disappointing 

[oche balboa]

1 hour ago, Carmi88 said:

I love people on twitter are whining about international management being removed when everyone screams it's awful and needs revamping. But then they also complain about the addition of women's football saying it's replacing international management

 

 

I rather have it than not. It's still (In my opinion) fun but like most things can be improved. People enjoy it 

[Boycott]

This update doesn't bother me. International management is like a chicken or egg scenario. Do only 5% play it because it is poor quality or is it only poor quality because it's not worth the time to change since 95% don't play it? Weight isn't something that I cared to notice anyway.

It's the first week of September. I'm okay with waiting a few more weeks to see screenshots. For me I expect it to be like FM09 where the first 3D attempt was full of bugs. But given a year FM10 was neatly polished creating the foundation for FM11-17 which I view as the era where each successive game was better than the last.

 

Edited September 4 by Boycott

[Metjuw]

16 minutes ago, CaptainSa said:

What core features have been removed?

The recent removal of football management, touchline shouts, social media and the data chalkboard. Need I say more? What about the new UI its disgusting to say the least.

16 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Actually they have colossal amounts of data on how single players play the game as FM / Steam (however it works) sends this kind of data back to SI.
There is an opt-out / in (can't recall which way around) so if you made that change, its true for you - but factually incorrect to imply that they don't have this data - they very much do.

I always leave it on - if it helps SI all good.

I know about the opt-in/out option and I didn't imply that they don't have the data. They don't have the actual data. They're basing off of players' who have that option selected.

[angelo994]

I am absolutely shocked. This development update could be a parody. With each new development update we hear more about what has been "cut" from the game. Also Miles pathetic attempt to guilt trip us with his "cancelled holidays". Embarrassing. I am extremely concerned about FM25 now. What state must the game be in that we still have no gameplay footage but only more content that has been cut? Is this good enough? There are so many great games out there right now,  I honestly feel this may be the first FM in over 15 years I may not buy.

[mackem10]

Removing weight has annoyed me far more than it should, so much so, I felt compelled to write about it on here.

 

Proper miffed.

[jimbo22]

1 minute ago, Boycott said:

For me I expect it to be like FM09 where the first 3D attempt was full of bugs. But given a year FM10 was neatly polished creating the foundation for FM11-17 which I view as the era where each successive game was better than the last.

This is an issue, and it should be for everyone and its becoming common in gaming in general. People that pay full price for a game arent your (not you, the company) beta testers.

[RedExpress]

Getting the small violins out for Miles cancelling his holiday to the USA. Extremely unprofessional and childish to even include a point like that.

 

No international football is game breaking. Fans have wanted it updated not removed from the game. Such a negative two updates has hardly wetted the appetite.

[mackem10]

16 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Exactly! SI have made a good decision here.

Couldnt disagree more Gary.

 

I find it interesting, it's an aspect of interest removed from the game, that doesn't appear to be a good decision, at least not for me.

 

Also, I'm not entirely clear on their reasoning for doing so.

[Craigus89]

3 minutes ago, mackem10 said:

Removing weight has annoyed me far more than it should, so much so, I felt compelled to write about it on here.

 

Proper miffed.

Lol, why?

[oche balboa]

Still at least the Big FM Creators will release videos defending the decisions that SI have made 

[superposh]

Curiosity means I'll pre-order, however, I'm more than a little concerned. I rarely find FM games more than barely playable until a few patches down the line... but this year, oh boy, could be interesting. 

[DaveMUFC]

1 hour ago, we88y said:

Part of me thinks the correct move would be to give a free database update to FM24 for the 24/25 season and start again with FM26 next year on an appropriate release date closer to the beginning of the season (Not nearly half way through at the end of November)

I agree, the late release really dampens excitement if you mainly want to play FM during the real season and lose interest in the current game when the actually season ends. 

Or like others have mentioned, early access in late September/early October would be fine, and would be able to excuse any bugs and removal of certain modes. 

But this is unfortunately the doings of FM being a monopoly. They can release it whenever they want and charge for beta access and nobody really can complain if they want this type of game...

[sedge11]

I don't really care for international football in FM or real life, so removing that for a year doesn't bother me. I also kind of expected the game to be delayed especially with such a big change on the development, just hope this doesn't lead to further delays. 

I would be all for them giving us an update for FM24 at a price, then releasing the new game as fm26, but I totally get why that would never happen, as you can get free updates from various sites.

[tezcatlipoca665]

If they'd've removed weight from the game without making an announcement, nobody would notice. Nobody looks at it. Nobody cared until now. Quit crying or make it a weird dealbreaker by not buying the game.

[ForTheLoveOfTheGame]

12 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Lol, why?

What do you mean why? 
 

It’s a football manager simulation…about managing individuals. Not having key aspects about those individuals doesn’t make any sense 

[angelo994]

I also find it pretty bizarre that according to the blog post. International fixtures will still be simulated in the game world, it just won't be playable. I wonder if it has anything to do with the new "Portal" interface that is replacing our Inbox and emails. 

[Lord Rowell]

29 minutes ago, Costav said:

Same is for the color of the skin. I do not recall SI removing faces/pictures because of racism....

The fact that you don't look at it does not make it a non-topic. You just don't look at it.

Attached and hopefully displayed (below) are the supposed quotes you posted and replied to.
2 and 3 (underlined ones) were not written by me (though I do support them as I referred to them in a reply).

But really, not cool to misquote someone. Not ok to say its an accident either. Link to your post below - screencapture is mine.

https://community.sports-interactive.com/forums/topic/586644-fm-25-development-update/?do=findComment&comment=14509456

Edited September 4 by Lord Rowell

[Zek]

International management has been stuck in 2000's gameplay for a really long time. It was never SI's priority to change it so not that surprised with this decision. I don't think it's the correct decision, however.
It also makes me wonder if some playable leagues are now on the chopping block, too. For example, I think SI said some years ago, before the Russian invasion began, the Belarusian second division was the least played league in the game.

When international management is brought back, I hope it'll actually be worth playing. It will always be (far) more limited than club management, but the way it was handled until FM24 seems too underutilised.

Personally, I don't really care much for weight being removed, it's not a thing I ever looked at and I don't think it had much, if any, effect on gameplay.

[DaveMUFC]

Also predicting that this year won't have the 2 week early access for pre ordering, as it sounds like the game isn't in any sort of release state yet and they'll probably be working till the last day on this. 

 

They're causing issues for themselves though, as if there is indeed no beta, people won't pre order, and the later they release it, the more likely people will just wait for the new year sales to buy. 

[CoffeeKittyGrey]

Feels like CM 03/04 all over again.

The focus should have been FM25 on time for PC, but frankly Console and Touch can sod off too. Remains to be seen whether womens football has a large enough database and enough data to make it worth the challenge, so I'm not sure delaying FM for a virtue-signalling addition is a good idea if neither are polished as a result. 

Might well skip this edition - By the time it's launched there's only half a season left and I lose interest once the football season ends and Spring/Summer is here.

A real shame too that FM24 has no real playability, I'm 500hrs down on most years, because it's just so bloated and hard to maintain a long term save.

As for weight, it's irrelevant. Doesn't impact the men's game and if it isn't realistic for a fluctuating women's game then it's time to be rid - it's cosmetic at best, bloated data at worst. The outrage incoming over making a change to accommodate women should be worth getting some popcorn in for though.
 

[alian62]

My thoughts of what I got out of this update since June 27th (2.1 months ago )

 

 

The end 

[whatsupdoc]

51 minutes ago, forameuss said:

"Changed" is a massive spectrum.  Of course it'll have changes, but if by that you mean changed wholesale and written from the ground up, I'd be amazed if it was.  I can't see them throwing away decades of development, although it is possible.  I imagine they'll reuse the bits they can get away with reusing, rework others and build around it.  But we're not going to get exposed to that.

Right. I have no idea about unity - they can't just take the UI and graphics from unity and copy/paste the fm24 ME though? They'll have to rework it to at least some degree because of the change?

Could be an opportunity to change things up a bit.

[Costav]

2 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Attached and hopefully displayed (below) are the supposed quotes you posted and replied to.
2 and 3 (underlined ones) were not written by me (though I do support them as I referred to them in a reply).

But really, not cool to misquote someone. Not ok to say its an accident either. Link to your post below - screencapture is mine.

https://community.sports-interactive.com/forums/topic/586644-fm-25-development-update/?do=findComment&comment=14509456

you're right, my bad. I just highlighted the text starting fromyour answer.

I am sorry for this.

Unless you want to report me to the police... xD

[Dagenham_Dave]

51 minutes ago, dpt8544 said:

Realistically I never once looked at a player's weight 

You and everyone else. 

[BohsJohnny]

International football is a huge part of women's football so removing it when you're introducing that to your game seems very strange. I think I'll be skipping this version unless they pull some amazing improvements out of nowhere to other parts of the game. I don't see that happening though.