Quarter Final 3: England vs Switzerland live from the Düsseldorf Arena. Saturday BBC1 5pm

[Redshift]

4 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Ahahahaha   3 semi finals in four tournaments is MEDIOCRITY lads.

Italy have only managed this once in their entire history (1988, 1990, 1994).  Portugal have only done this once (2000, 2004, 2006).  Spain have only done this once (2008, 2010, 2012).  Netherlands have only done it twice (1974, 1976, 1978 and 1998, 2000, 2004).

England, it won't surprise you to hear, had never done it before yesterday.  Ever.  Even reaching the quarter final stage... we are the ONLY European team to reach the last eight at all of the last four World Cups and Euros.

Again, I think people need to take a step back and recalibrate expectations somewhat.  You can moan about the performances all you want, but you need to remember just how difficult it is to get to the business end of these competitions consistently.

Nobody has a divine right to reach semi finals and finals every time just because most of their players are good.

**** me.

It's fair to say that, apart from winning against Germany, we haven't managed to pull off a result in the knockout stages against the big teams yet and if you can't do that, then you are not in a position to win tournaments. I am hoping that Southgate's setup is one that is more favourable against bigger teams that go for us more and maybe things will work out now but it's not surprising that people are doubtful about what Southgate has achieved either through favourable draws or bailouts from flashes of brilliance from individual players. If we beat the Netherlands then I'm sure all will be forgiven though.

[The_jagster]

We actually remind me of Brazil in 2014, not playing very well but just about doing enough to get through the knockout rounds against teams with inferior players.

Doubt Holland will give us the reckoning we deserve though

Edited July 7 by The_jagster

[The_jagster]

Also is yesterday's match the first the BBC have had since the Denmark game?

If so it could be that the relentless positivity is trolling because Kane et al said they should get behind the team

[Rob1981]

Just now, The_jagster said:

Also is yesterday's match the first the BBC have had since the Denmark game?

Yeah, it was.  BBC got the first two group games.  ITV only took the last group game out of the three, but then the trade-off is that they also got first pick for the R16.

[Crispypaul]

32 minutes ago, Andrew_ said:

And here's the Southgate effect for all to see. Happy with mediocrity. Not what could be.

How is 3 out of 4 times reaching the semis "mediocrity?" That's highly consistent despite obvious flaws in our performances this time around.

[Divinity]

2 hours ago, Rob1981 said:

the cagey games you often get at this stage of an international tournament.

The problem is, this is every England game at an international tournament. And for some reason you think that's ok. This is prior to last night, shots on target:

Some of the most talented players in the world and that's the tactical system you turn up.

[GunmaN1905]

4 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Ahahahaha   3 semi finals in four tournaments is MEDIOCRITY lads.

How about this.

England's knockout stage wins against countries with a major trophy (WC/EURO/Copa) since 1966.

1996: Spain, penalties at home.
2002: Denmark.
2021: Germany and Denmark at home.

Having one knockout win against a top nation would be worth more than out-sh*thousing second tier teams while having an exponentially more expensive squad.

Quote

 

Italy have only managed this once in their entire history (1988, 1990, 1994).  Portugal have only done this once (2000, 2004, 2006).  Spain have only done this once (2008, 2010, 2012).  Netherlands have only done it twice (1974, 1976, 1978 and 1998, 2000, 2004).

 

Knockout wins against teams with a major trophy in just last decade:

Italy
2016: Spain
2021: Spain, penalties and England, penalties at away ground

Portugal
2016: France, away ground.

Spain
2024: Germany, at away ground.

That's just 10 years compared to England's 58 year record, if I expanded it to 20 it would look embarrassing.
You're by far the luckiest nation when it comes to draw, not only the knockout stage, but groups.

It's Southgate's fourth tournament and these have been all the opponents so far, it's always the weakest group and always the weak side of the knockout stage.

2018: Tunisia, Panama, Belgium, Colombia, Sweden, Croatia, Belgium.
2021: Scotland, Czechia, Croatia, Germany, Ukraine, Denmark, Italy.
2022: Iran, USA, Wales, Senegal, France.
2024: Serbia, Denmark, Slovenia, Slovakia, Switzerland, Netherlands.

Don't get me wrong, Southgate can only work with the draw he had, but until so far he's got one win against an actual top nation and that was at Wembley.
Semi-final doesn't mean sh*t if he's going to fall at the first difficult obstacle yet again.

 

[PaulHartman71]

1 hour ago, Obi-Wan Kenobi said:

Please tell me the next game will be an 8pm start? I want England to send me to sleep at a reasonable time.

Wednesday 9PM then final is Sunday 9PM if we get there 

[JJ72]

2 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Wednesday 9PM then final is Sunday 9PM if we get there 

In Germany yes, not in England 

[kopsy101]

Group stage games are a bit irrelevant to include unless you're trying to push a narrative, but then also no need to include the third place playoff against Belgium tbf. But in the 12 knockout games, he's come up against Croatia who were brilliant then, Germany, Italy, France and now Netherlands. If you finish top of the group, which many big teams don't, you'll get a weaker team so I don't think the draws have always been more generous than other teams. 

Ability to beat the bigger teams is another thing. It seems quite simply that England beat teams they're better than and don't beat teams which are better. Simples. 

The thing is, England have a much better team now than they did in 2018, so will be interesting to see how the rest of this tournament plays out. I think they'll beat Netherlands, they're just a bit soft. 

[skybluedave]

Southgate is an average manager no doubt and he's made a mess this summer. He should definitely move on after this tournament and maybe theres a good arguement he should have after WC. 

But I can't bring myself to hate him like so many do. To be enraged by everything he says and does. Just sitting there waiting to angrily retweet something he's said. Regardless of what happens next week I'll still love the bloke. He's brought me some of my greatest moments in my football fan life. When the dust settles of his time with England I'll look back fondly. Colombia, Germany even last night weirdly to some extent are all great footballing memories for me. I can still love him and accept he's not quite been good enough at key moments

[Ackter]

It's legit amazing how happy some of you English are to be **** at football. Lucking out results against weak teams and getting knocked out by the first real challenge is pretty mediocre, regardless of when in the tournament it happens.

[GunmaN1905]

3 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

you'll get a weaker team so I don't think the draws have always been more generous than other teams.

In the last three tournaments it would've been some feat for them not to finish first in the group.

The only actual group stage threat they faced was Croatia in 2021 and it was played at Wembley, with Croatia being out of sorts.

Just this tournament you had Netherlands/France, Italy/Spain/Croatia groups.

Last WC England had easily the worst group other than Qatar having no business to be in the tournament.

[kopsy101]

Just now, GunmaN1905 said:

In the last three tournaments it would've been some feat for them not to finish first in the group.

The only actual group stage threat they faced was Croatia in 2021 and it was played at Wembley, with Croatia being out of sorts.

Just this tournament you had Netherlands/France, Italy/Spain/Croatia groups.

Last WC England had easily the worst group other than Qatar having no business to be in the tournament.

I'm not English, mate. 

It's just that typically, the best teams come together later in the tournament. Okay, they've avoided the big quarter games this time, but that's not always been the case. Agreed the 2018 run was as easy as it will come, and this year doesn't appear much harder, but 21/22 are no walks in the park at all. If you consider the likes of Portugal who won 2016, their run was similar to Englands 2018 run and that's just how it goes sometimes. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[PaulHartman71]

19 minutes ago, JJ72 said:

In Germany yes, not in England 

Oh right  

Assumed when I googled it would show UK time

[Coulthard's Jaw]

13 minutes ago, Ackter said:

It's legit amazing how happy some of you English are to be **** at football. Lucking out results against weak teams and getting knocked out by the first real challenge is pretty mediocre, regardless of when in the tournament it happens.

Don't care, we're in the semi finals 

[Rob1981]

28 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

It's Southgate's fourth tournament and these have been all the opponents so far, it's always the weakest group and always the weak side of the knockout stage.

2018: Tunisia, Panama, Belgium, Colombia, Sweden, Croatia, Belgium.
2021: Scotland, Czechia, Croatia, Germany, Ukraine, Denmark, Italy.
2022: Iran, USA, Wales, Senegal, France.
2024: Serbia, Denmark, Slovenia, Slovakia, Switzerland, Netherlands.

Don't get me wrong, Southgate can only work with the draw he had, but until so far he's got one win against an actual top nation and that was at Wembley.  Semi-final doesn't mean sh*t if he's going to fall at the first difficult obstacle yet again.

Christ, man   Are we really doing this again?

Look at some of the others runs-to-a-final:

• Brazil '94: USA, Netherlands, Sweden
• Italy '94: Nigeria, Spain, Bulgaria
• France '98: Paraguay, Italy, Croatia
• Brazil '98: Chile, Denmark, Netherlands
• Germany '02: Paraguay, USA, South Korea ()
• Brazil '02: Belgium, England, Turkey
• Italy '06: Australia, Ukraine, Germany
• Netherlands '10: Slovakia, Brazil, Uruguay
• Argentina '14: Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands
• Portugal '16: Croatia, Poland, Wales
• France '16: Ireland, Iceland, Germany
• Croatia '18: Denmark, Russia, England
• England '20: Germany, Ukraine, Denmark
• Italy '20: Austria, Belgium, Spain
• France '22: Poland, England, Morocco
• Argentina '22: Australia, Netherlands, Croatia

You don't have to go and smash three elite teams one after the other.  In fact, most teams that have a KO path putting them against three good opponents generally go out somewhere along the way and therefore nobody remembers them.  Even though they were probably "great in the group stage"!

So you make sure you win your group and you give yourself the best chance of success in the knockout stage.  Then you can turn in probably one great performance against a team that's on your level.  And you can luck in with inferior opponents in the other games.  And still find a way to get the job done even if you don't play that well... boom!  You're in the final. 

This is LITERALLY what tournament football is.  I don't know how people can keep forgetting what these tournaments are like in the two years between each competition.  Somehow folk keep tuning back in with memories of elite winners having to dominate loads of heavyweight clashes one after the other to be successful.  Even though this almost never happens.

Edited July 7 by Rob1981

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, kopsy101 said:

I'm not English, mate.

Which part of my post made it look like I think you are?

Quote

It's just that typically, the best teams come together later in the tournament.

Every tournament there's at least one first knockout round matchup between big nations and a couple of QF matchups between those.
One time England got an unfavorable QF matchup they lost.

Quote

If you consider the likes of Portugal who won 2016, their run was similar to Englands 2018 run and that's just how it goes sometimes. 

Portugal eliminated probably the best Croatia if we talk actual performance, I think we had more chances of winning that tournament than 2018.
Then they were supposed to play Belgium, but what can they do if Wales beats Belgium. And won away against hosts.
Their road was easy, but they completed it.

In the end, for me the most important thing with these defensive teams is that they look solid defensively.
England doesn't.

Switzerland's defense and midfield are good, but their attack is dire.
If they allow the same space on their left Switzerland had yesterday, Netherlands will have a lot of great chances to score.

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

You don't have to go and smash three elite teams one after the other.  In fact, most teams that have a KO path putting them against three good opponents generally go out somewhere along the way and therefore nobody remembers them.  Even though they were probably "great in the group stage"!

Fully agreed.

But the entire problem and the thing I'm trying to point out is not that England had some easy opponents, but that Southgate never had any strong opponents he beat.
Yes, Germany is a top opponent, but it was at Wembley and their record on big tournaments as of late is their worst streak in history.

You can't talk about making 3/4 semi-finals if you never beat a top nation. That's the most annoying thing you do.

Drawing against Slovakia and Switzerland isn't a damn achievement when you've got a billion euro squad and you're playing agaisnt teams that wouldn't have a single attacking player make England's 26 man list.

[kopsy101]

11 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Which part of my post made it look like I think you are?

That’s my bad, I’m reading this on my phone so when you said “you’ve got groups” I associated that to another part 

Based on that, ill respond to the rest later as otherwise that’ll also be error filled 

[Rob1981]

14 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

the thing I'm trying to point out is not that England had some easy opponents, but that Southgate never had any strong opponents he beat.
Yes, Germany is a top opponent, but it was at Wembley and their record on big tournaments as of late is their worst streak in history.

So, "never beat any strong opponents" apart from the Germany side that you immediately concede was a strong opponent  

Clearly, we could have played better in some of the other big games.  But as a general rule, I don't think one top opponent + two inferior ones is an unusual run to the final.  You often only need to turn in one really good performance against a team that's on your level.  I mean the last two England tournaments prove this, right?

• 2020 - Beat Germany, reach the final
• 2022 - Don't beat France.  Therefore we don't reach the final, even though we could have probably won a semi against Morocco if we'd got there.

I mean, you're right.  If we don't beat Netherlands... this certainly won't go down as a stellar tournament this year, even though we have another semi final in the record books.  But if we do beat them, I don't think a run of Slovakia-Switzerland-Netherlands is any easier than the majority of those mentioned in the list above.

So this constant refrain of "He hasn't played anyone good!" just gets really tiresome.  Again, people are comparing him to the aspiration they have in their head, not to the reality of other international tournaments.  Waiting for him to smash some hypothetical achievement where we go and beat three top teams one after the other.  Even though most other finalists generally don't have to do this.

Edited July 7 by Rob1981

[enigmatic]

1 hour ago, Bliss Seeker said:

Haven't seen much praise for Konsa. For someone coming in for his 3rd cap (?), starting a quarter final up against a flying Swiss team he held his ground and made some goal saving interceptions.

Seemed to make decisions on the ball and passed quicker than Guehi too.

Also, I've been really critical of Stones  but thought he was much much better yesterday. Especially in that first half where he brought the ball forward and was camped beyond the half way line, rather than his own box.

Would love him to bring the ball forward like he does at City more, but that was better from him.

Everything starts from him, so he needed that performance.

Stones played well apart from his assist for the Swiss goal, which is a pretty big apart from. Konsa was good.

 

23 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

This is LITERALLY what tournament football is.  I don't know how people can keep forgetting what these tournaments are like in the two years between each competition.  Somehow folk keep tuning back in with memories of elite winners having to dominate loads of heavyweight clashes one after the other to be successful.  Even though this almost never happens.

tbf the folk memories of elite winners aren't quite as inaccurate as the folk memories of England playing good football in pre-Gareth tournaments.  

I mean, our post 66 pre Gareth tournament high point is probably Euro 96, in which we drew three games (one of them against Switzerland which is apparently unforgivable, another one thanks entirely to Seaman and the match officials, and the third which saw us knocked out), and won two, one of them against Scotland (mostly thanks to Seaman again) whilst other tournaments we didn't miss involved eliminations at the hands of Iceland and Romania, a solitary point in a dead rubber against Costa Rica, or the tactical finesse of lumping it to Heskey.

Edited July 7 by enigmatic

[SteveUK]

6 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I mean, you're right.  If we don't beat Netherlands... this certainly won't go down as a stellar tournament this year, even though we have another semi final in the record books.  But if we do beat them, I don't think a run of Slovakia-Switzerland-Netherlands is any easier than the majority of those mentioned in the list above.

I think if you did a poll on which side of the tournament tree you'd want to be on, I suspect very few people would want the side with France, Germany, Portugal and Spain on it compared to what we have, I really don't rate Southgate but honestly we couldn't have gotten a better path to the final.

[GunmaN1905]

12 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

So this constant refrain of "He hasn't played anyone good!" just gets really tiresome.

Idk about others, but I personally wouldn't say a word if England was playing well against weaker opponents.

2018 was his first tournament with a obviously weaker squad than current and the performance was very good considering the overall inexperience.
2021 was good until the final, which was a disappointment, can be attributed to home pressure or whatever, but two losses from winning positions aren't a good look.
2022 was good against weaker teams, France game was probably the most solid performance, even though everyone can find some tactical flaws afterwards.

2024 is just a disaster, no other way around it. You've now played 4 straight draws against teams at least two tiers below you. Shouldn't a team that's been with the manager for so long look better as the time goes on? While Nations League is irrelevant if we talk results, it was a good sign something was off. You went from scoring 12 in 4 against weaker teams in Qatar to relying on individual brilliance to pull you from the brink of elimination. Don't forget that Slovakian chance for 2-0 and Shaqiri's post from yesterday. Not only that England is scoring way less, but the chances don't exist, there's nothing going on whatsoever and despite not conceding many, defense looks disjointed against every dangerous transition attack.

Even though you've got more individual quality than Netherlands, give them the spaces Switzerland had yesterday and they score at least a couple.

Again, I don't have anything against easy draws, I have a lot against playing horribly against way weaker opposition and then trying to present it as a success after being on the brink of elmination twice.

For all the criticism '02-06 golden generation gets, the results are exactly the same. Losses against first top opposition.
Back then it was a disaster of cataclysmic proportions, nowdays is tough luck, well done to Gareth and the boys.

Edited July 7 by GunmaN1905

[Rob1981]

5 minutes ago, SteveUK said:

I think if you did a poll on which side of the tournament tree you'd want to be on, I suspect very few people would want the side with France, Germany, Portugal and Spain on it compared to what we have,

Obviously not  

Of course England/Netherlands have had a good path to the final this year. But that doesn’t mean that it’s loads easier than the path that many other finalists have had down the years.

If you find yourself with three big hitters one after the other, you don’t generally get through.

Not sure how else to say it.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Really enjoyed the last three tournaments, have not enjoyed this tournament. Can't argue with Gareth's results but does feel like it's time for change, but this isn't to say he's been **** or anything, absolute legend.

Edited July 7 by Coulthard's Jaw

[Heartwork]

Uh....

Pretty sure the Manx generally support England as they can't join UEFA but there's also a fair amount of support for Scotland thanks to Tierney.

[PaulHartman71]

2 hours ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Really enjoyed the last three tournaments, have not enjoyed this tournament. Can't argue with Gareth's results but does feel like it's time for change, but this isn't to say he's been **** or anything, absolute legend.

I hope we win it but it would be kind of annoying if we won the tournament where the vibes were so bad  

Like I still want us to win but I haven’t enjoyed any of the games and they’ve not had the same positive vibes the last 3 tournaments had for me even when out in pubs with mates watching the games. 

Trying to get myself more hyped and excited by the Semi on Wednesday as I want to enjoy it if we do win. It’s such a weird feeling. Can’t really describe or explain it. 

[TalkSport]

7 hours ago, Baptista_8 said:

Foden was better but effective? Aimless lofts into the box are all he's offering. There are many reasons why we're not creating clear cut chances but Foden is one of them. Him getting in a dangerous area yesterday and panicking playing a blind pass to a Swiss defender kinda summed his performances up.

You mean the overhead kick flick, the sort of **** Palmer does loads every game, the low % stuff.

Would like to see the pressing stats / sprints, because Foden must’ve been at the top. 

[Andrew_]

xSprints too please.

[Baptista_8]

1 hour ago, TalkSport said:

You mean the overhead kick flick, the sort of **** Palmer does loads every game, the low % stuff.

Would like to see the pressing stats / sprints, because Foden must’ve been at the top. 

? It was awful. Foden had time to get it under and keep our attack going by finding Saka on the right. It was panicky under no pressure.

Edited July 7 by Baptista_8

[Constantine]

How the heck Rob and Gunman doesn't get tired of this? I've seen this convo of theirs at least three times before today...

[decapitated]

The Banter timeline as far as this forum goes is Southgate winning the euros and then for his first post-England job, managing Inter Milan. 

[RTHerringbone]

18 minutes ago, decapitated said:

The Banter timeline as far as this forum goes is Southgate winning the euros and then for his first post-England job, managing Inter Milan. 

Oh yes. With his own interpretation of how a back three should play 

[GunmaN1905]

42 minutes ago, Constantine said:

How the heck Rob and Gunman doesn't get tired of this? I've seen this convo of theirs at least three times before today...

Every single forum I've been on has a nonsensical, timeless rivalry between two posters.

[craigcwwe]

 

 

[hairwad]

I've had the BBC pre-penalty feed on replay for 10 minutes now. I'm not a lip reading expert but I think the additional order would've been:

6 Rice
7 Eze
8 Pickford (!)
9 Walker
10 Shaw

[blueglobefootball123]

8 hours ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Knockout wins against teams with a major trophy in just last decade:

Italy
2016: Spain
2021: Spain, penalties and England, penalties at away ground

Portugal
2016: France, away ground.

Spain
2024: Germany, at away ground.
 

This is where stats can be used in different ways to make a point though - if your looking at knockout wins over the past 10 years over past champions, then England also have two in 2021 (Germany and Denmark).

So more than Portugal and Spain???

 

Looking further back (pre Southgate reign) then your right, England have been largely dire and embarrassing- this is the biggest compliment to Southgate, since he took over he changed the national teams success and made the England National team enjoyable again (as between the Sven era and Southgate, for myself at least, it was bloody dire following the team).

Dont get me wrong, Southgate has been very fortunate with the draws in Russia and here (but to get those, we’ve had to win the groups) and this tournament has been poor in regards to the unbalanced team and his inactivity to make any damn substitutes.

Against Slovenia we were extremely lucky, same could be said against Switzerland but somehow we are through to the Semi finals so let’s see how that plays out - France are also through to the semis and have been equally as poor.

This is definitely the end of the Southgate era though and he should move on. I hope our next manager is someone tactically astute who can influence games and not decide ahead of time who the substitutes will be!
 

Who that should be though, I really don’t know but I think looking back, Southgate’s tenure will be looked at positively and he’s certainly left the national team better than when he was appointed.

[skybluedave]

55 minutes ago, craigcwwe said:

 

 

That's really cool

[arenaross]

Is it? It feels to me like something that makes fundamentally no difference but someone has got a word count they need to hit. 

Edited July 7 by arenaross

[m_fenton]

Just now, arenaross said:

Is it? It feels to me like something that makes fundamentally no difference but someone has got a word count they need to hit. 

Over analysis of Pickford is what you're after there: https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jul/07/only-one-man-in-charge-pickford-englands-penalty-hero-euro-2024

(The main point that Pickford's bloody good in a shootout is fine, but I don't think any if his actions were particularly unusual)

[Coulthard's Jaw]

The big thing is we have a few lads now who takes lots of penalties 

[Andrew_]

Gareth playing for a bore draw makes sense now.

[vikeologist]

On 07/07/2024 at 23:07, arenaross said:

Is it? It feels to me like something that makes fundamentally no difference but someone has got a word count they need to hit. 

Not sure if you read the Athletic article, but this thread by Geir Jordet might convince you.

 

 

[arenaross]

21 minutes ago, vikeologist said:

Not sure if you read the Athletic article, but this thread by Geir Jordet might convince you.

 

 

I did. It did not convince me but it's good that he's peddling his book.

[Rob1981]

The penalty shootout was genuinely one of the most impressive things this England side have ever done.

Everyone focused.  Everyone rehearsed, whether they were taking one or not.  No nerves.  Just go and execute on the plan.  Done.

It was only Germany that ever used to look remotely organised in shootouts back in the day.  Pretty much every other country just used to be mass of players huddling around after the final whistle.  And with the manager only asking if people fancied taking one after the game had already finished

[Haguey]

I have never gone into a penalty shootout so confident that we would get it done, thats for sure

[kopsy101]

On 07/07/2024 at 12:50, GunmaN1905 said:

Which part of my post made it look like I think you are?

Every tournament there's at least one first knockout round matchup between big nations and a couple of QF matchups between those.
One time England got an unfavorable QF matchup they lost.

Portugal eliminated probably the best Croatia if we talk actual performance, I think we had more chances of winning that tournament than 2018.
Then they were supposed to play Belgium, but what can they do if Wales beats Belgium. And won away against hosts.
Their road was easy, but they completed it.

In the end, for me the most important thing with these defensive teams is that they look solid defensively.
England doesn't.

Switzerland's defense and midfield are good, but their attack is dire.
If they allow the same space on their left Switzerland had yesterday, Netherlands will have a lot of great chances to score.

Sorry pal i'm just getting round to this.

You're probably right in that England have been a bit fortunate, but swings and roundabouts, I'd imagine fortune won't always favour them. 

On the other hand, I think they look pretty solid. They have the best defence in the tournament so far and the lowest xG conceded, but I'd imagine that's more down to Southgate's no risk strategy that personel. Because, they also have like the lowest xG created which is insane, players considered. 

Yup, if England play like they did against Switzerland, they're in trouble today.