For the love of god!!!

[Minotti]

Can there be an edition of FM where everything English isn’t that insanely overrated??? The players, the NT, the regents coming up! I understand it’s a game developed by a UK company but please some sort of realism would be appreciated. There’s no ****ing way a guy like Saka should have 180+ in potential ability or we’re not watching and understanding the game similarly! 
 

get a grip SI!

[Carambau]

First time playing FM? 

[Minotti]

Lol no but I’ve never expressed that before and I’ve been playing since cm days but I see that the developers of the game occasionally browse the forum so maybe there’s hope? 😀

[Wolf_pd]

Let me show you a funny screenshot. England as a nation isn't overrated. England has already been downgraded through the years. But you are not wrong, the clubs and competitions are overpowered and that has its effect on the game.

[starbugg]

4 hours ago, Minotti said:

Can there be an edition of FM where everything English isn’t that insanely overrated??? The players, the NT, the regents coming up! I understand it’s a game developed by a UK company but please some sort of realism would be appreciated. There’s no ****ing way a guy like Saka should have 180+ in potential ability or we’re not watching and understanding the game similarly! 
 

get a grip SI!

You obviously didn't watch him play against Switzerland today, worth 180 and more in anybody's potential ability stakes.

You say anything English is insanely overrated, and you are entitled to your opinion, I say it is realistic.

[Minotti]

1 minute ago, starbugg said:

You obviously didn't watch him play against Switzerland today, worth 180 and more in anybody's potential ability stakes.

You say anything English is insanely overrated, and you are entitled to your opinion, I say it is realistic.

I did! Just for reference: Kaka in his prime was a 180 potential ability player! Saka doesn’t come close to half of what kaka was! Besides the goal he was bang average not to mention other games where he was garbage.

 

its not just about saka though. Same with Kane who had INSANE stats in fm! A ciro immobile with better build up! There are just so many English players and players playing in the premier league that are insanely overrated. Bruno ****ing Fernandez has 17 in everything technical. Ödegard of arsenal looks like he is Totti with his vision and passing stats! But most often, it is English players that are grossly overrated. 

[MichaelNevo]

30 minutes ago, Minotti said:

I did! Just for reference: Kaka in his prime was a 180 potential ability player! Saka doesn’t come close to half of what kaka was! Besides the goal he was bang average not to mention other games where he was garbage.

 

its not just about saka though. Same with Kane who had INSANE stats in fm! A ciro immobile with better build up! There are just so many English players and players playing in the premier league that are insanely overrated. Bruno ****ing Fernandez has 17 in everything technical. Ödegard of arsenal looks like he is Totti with his vision and passing stats! But most often, it is English players that are grossly overrated. 

Kaka should have been more than just 180, thats just underrated in my opinion. When Manchester United came up against AC Milan back in the 06-07 season in the Champions League, I was just in awe at how good Kaka was. Milan had a great team, but Kaka was another entity and he fully deserved his ballon d'or.

From an actual game standpoint, my advice if you're not happy with something like this, either find some editor work done by another person that brings more realism to the game, or use the editor yourself to change it to how you think things should be. As Wolf said, England have been downgraded, but the competitions are still so strong that not much can keep up with them.

[starbugg]

By that you are saying Saka should be 90 PA ? He beat his marker(s) every time he took them on ... I an no Saka fan but you are wrong (I'm a WHU fan for what it is worth)

You are wrong in your opinion but it is your opinion, you have yours I have mine

[starbugg]

54 minutes ago, Minotti said:

its not just about saka though. Same with Kane who had INSANE stats in fm! A ciro immobile with better build up! ....

Kane moves to B Munich and scores 35 goals (pretty good that) in his first season, Not only have you got him in the wrong league but this is beginning to sound like just an anti-English rant.

Edited July 6 by starbugg

[starbugg]

Sorry to keep on but some interesting reading from UEFA suggesting English football is not as overrated as you say:

The association club coefficients are based on the results of each association's clubs in the five previous UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League seasons. The rankings determine the number of places allocated to an association (country) in forthcoming UEFA club competition.

The season association club coefficient are based on points obtained by all its clubs in a given season in the UEFA Champions League (UCL), UEFA Europa League (UEL) and UEFA Europa Conference League (UECL).

1 England     104.303
2 Italy            90.284    
3 Spain        89.489
4 Germany    86.624
5 France        66.831

By far the best results despite a rubbish performance in 23/24

Full list here:
https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/?year=2024

[whatsupdoc]

6 hours ago, starbugg said:

Sorry to keep on but some interesting reading from UEFA suggesting English football is not as overrated as you say:

The association club coefficients are based on the results of each association's clubs in the five previous UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League seasons. The rankings determine the number of places allocated to an association (country) in forthcoming UEFA club competition.

The season association club coefficient are based on points obtained by all its clubs in a given season in the UEFA Champions League (UCL), UEFA Europa League (UEL) and UEFA Europa Conference League (UECL).

1 England     104.303
2 Italy            90.284    
3 Spain        89.489
4 Germany    86.624
5 France        66.831

By far the best results despite a rubbish performance in 23/24

Full list here:
https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/?year=2024

I don't think many people believe the EPL is overrated. 

The number of people who think English players need to be surrounded by 7+ continental / south american players to play well though... is high.

[MichaelNevo]

6 hours ago, starbugg said:

Sorry to keep on but some interesting reading from UEFA suggesting English football is not as overrated as you say:

The association club coefficients are based on the results of each association's clubs in the five previous UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League seasons. The rankings determine the number of places allocated to an association (country) in forthcoming UEFA club competition.

The season association club coefficient are based on points obtained by all its clubs in a given season in the UEFA Champions League (UCL), UEFA Europa League (UEL) and UEFA Europa Conference League (UECL).

1 England     104.303
2 Italy            90.284    
3 Spain        89.489
4 Germany    86.624
5 France        66.831

By far the best results despite a rubbish performance in 23/24

Full list here:
https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/?year=2024

Their current standing isn't overpowered, but in a medium to long term save, nothing much changes and that's why they appear to be overpowered.

[Smurf]

I've said for about 4 years that Saka is England's best player, by a country mile.

While the England team has historically underperformed relative to their talent, recent successes, like reaching the Euro 2020 final, show they are formidable. However, the hype around individual players can sometimes inflate expectations.

------------------------

A high PA (Potential Ability) doesn't guarantee a player will reach it. CA (Current Ability) is more important. I dislike the fixed PA system because it restricts players from exceeding their potential. Young players should have unlimited potential. For instance, a youth player with 150 CA and 160 PA might surpass this ceiling during their career.

The fixed PA system simplifies game balance and expectations but doesn't reflect real-life player development's unpredictability.

Many players, like Ravel Morrison, Luke Chadwick, and Freddy Adu, started with high PA but didn't live up to it. I've often thought PA should fluctuate based on performance, injuries, etc.

It should be an Estimated PA (EPA) for young players. For example, a player starting with 160 EPA who performs well could increase to 170 or 175 EPA, allowing their CA to reach those levels for a period, but it could also decrease.

Players like Braithwaite, David Platt, Papu Gomez, Joselu, Iago Aspas, Victor Moses, Thomas Partey, and Vardy were average for most of their careers but hit high points before coming back down.

Introducing a dynamic potential system (EPA) would make the game more realistic. Real-life players experience potential fluctuations due to form, injuries, and other circumstances. A system where potential increases or decreases would add depth to the game. While CA ebbs and flows, some players, like Saka, shouldn't be capped by the system.

Ravel Morrison and Freddy Adu had immense potential but didn’t fulfill it, while others like Jamie Vardy and Iago Aspas improved significantly later. Incorporating this variability into the game would better mirror real-life football.

[XaW]

32 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

It’s an interesting question whether SI being an English company affects this. I am certain there is no grand conspiracy or wilful bias, but it is likely that English developers see the game through English eyes.

Do remember that the attributes, as well as potential, are set by researchers that are usually from the country where the team plays in. Of course, they follow guidelines, but using the same guidelines why would say Spanish researchers rate their players lower than English? Sure, some biases are hard to avoid completely, but for the most part, I think the reason for English teams being dominant are because they have the biggest financial setups in the world. As in real life, so it's correct.

The issue for me is that in the game most teams seems to be equally competent in recruitment and club management, so more money almost always means more success. In real life though, the competency of the "higher ups" vary much more. Sure, Man City has endless pockets, but they also have a highly competent sporting management. Man Utd use more money (at least officially), but still struggle because they spend the money wrong. And no, I don't want to open Pandora's box here, but looking at pure net spend, Man Utd spends much more than many more successful teams. The game does not portray this difference good enough, at that's the cause of why the English teams seems to over perform in many saves.

TL:DR

In game; Money = Success regardless of Upper Management Skill
IRL: Money & Skill = Success, but Money without Upper Management Skill = No Success

I think that about sums it up!  

[MichaelNevo]

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

Do remember that the attributes, as well as potential, are set by researchers that are usually from the country where the team plays in. Of course, they follow guidelines, but using the same guidelines why would say Spanish researchers rate their players lower than English? Sure, some biases are hard to avoid completely, but for the most part, I think the reason for English teams being dominant are because they have the biggest financial setups in the world. As in real life, so it's correct.

The issue for me is that in the game most teams seems to be equally competent in recruitment and club management, so more money almost always means more success. In real life though, the competency of the "higher ups" vary much more. Sure, Man City has endless pockets, but they also have a highly competent sporting management. Man Utd use more money (at least officially), but still struggle because they spend the money wrong. And no, I don't want to open Pandora's box here, but looking at pure net spend, Man Utd spends much more than many more successful teams. The game does not portray this difference good enough, at that's the cause of why the English teams seems to over perform in many saves.

TL:DR

In game; Money = Success regardless of Upper Management Skill
IRL: Money & Skill = Success, but Money without Upper Management Skill = No Success

I think that about sums it up!  

Hit the nail on the head. I actually support Man Utd and our recruitment has been diabolical for many years. Other clubs charge us more money than the players are worth and our recruitment team pay it out of desperation it seems. Thankfully there's an overhaul going on throughout the club, so hopefully this will no longer be the case.

I do wonder how difficult this would be to portray in Football Manager.

[Minotti]

10 hours ago, starbugg said:

Kane moves to B Munich and scores 35 goals (pretty good that) in his first season, Not only have you got him in the wrong league but this is beginning to sound like just an anti-English rant.

Yea, cause going to the most dominant team in German football who also happen to be the most attacking one is such a strong argument! 

[Minotti]

I think some people misunderstand my post. I’m not saying English Premer league teams aren’t good or so. Of course they are and will naturally have great UEFA coefficient stats. At the same time those stats are completely misleading! Because judging by that, serie a is almost as good as it ever been. Which is far from reality but that’s another discussion.

 

The thing that I find tiresome after so many years is that everything that turns English becomes gold! Liverpool buys szobozlai (spelling?) and his stats gets insanely jacked up! Did he just turn world class immediately as he entered the atmosphere of England? What is in the air that makes these players get instant boost in attributes? 
 

it’s just annoying especially since it’s a game that wants to boast about being realistic and whatnot! You could never play the game fm and have Atalanta beat Liverpool 3-0 at anfield! It’s just not happening! 

[Minotti]

10 hours ago, starbugg said:

By that you are saying Saka should be 90 PA ? He beat his marker(s) every time he took them on ... I an no Saka fan but you are wrong (I'm a WHU fan for what it is worth)

You are wrong in your opinion but it is your opinion, you have yours I have mine

Please stop using reductio ad absurdum!

 

at the very very best Saka is a 160 PA! 

[NineCloudNine]

25 minutes ago, XaW said:

Do remember that the attributes, as well as potential, are set by researchers that are usually from the country where the team plays in. Of course, they follow guidelines, but using the same guidelines why would say Spanish researchers rate their players lower than English? Sure, some biases are hard to avoid completely, but for the most part, I think the reason for English teams being dominant are because they have the biggest financial setups in the world. As in real life, so it's correct.

 

You mentioned researchers in a reply to a quote about developers . I don't think Spanish researchers rate their players lower than English researchers rate theirs. But I think Spanish researchers may value different attributes, reflecting their football culture. And those attributes may not be as valued in a ME developed by English developers. Hence the ME strongly favouring physical attributes (the historical English game) and not technical attributes (the historical Spanish game). I don't think there's any grand conspiracy or indeed anyone doing anything other than their very best. But I suspect it is likely that the English roots of SI and FM going back decades make it almost inevitable that there is an English flavour to the way the game world plays out.

Edited to add: I agree about English clubs. I'm talking about English players, and more generally an English lens on football as a whole.

Edited July 7 by NineCloudNine

[NineCloudNine]

1 minute ago, Minotti said:

 

 

at the very very best Saka is a 160 PA

You've raised an interesting question but hanging it on statements like this will juat make you look silly. Saka is already waaaay above 160 CA and PA of 180+ is completely realistic. He's world class, an absolute top star. You could pick a lot of players from PL clubs in FM to make your point - you've picked the wrong one.

[MichaelNevo]

2 minutes ago, Minotti said:

Please stop using reductio ad absurdum!

 

at the very very best Saka is a 160 PA! 

That claim is just absurd.

[Minotti]

21 minutes ago, XaW said:

Do remember that the attributes, as well as potential, are set by researchers that are usually from the country where the team plays in. Of course, they follow guidelines, but using the same guidelines why would say Spanish researchers rate their players lower than English? Sure, some biases are hard to avoid completely, but for the most part, I think the reason for English teams being dominant are because they have the biggest financial setups in the world. As in real life, so it's correct.

The issue for me is that in the game most teams seems to be equally competent in recruitment and club management, so more money almost always means more success. In real life though, the competency of the "higher ups" vary much more. Sure, Man City has endless pockets, but they also have a highly competent sporting management. Man Utd use more money (at least officially), but still struggle because they spend the money wrong. And no, I don't want to open Pandora's box here, but looking at pure net spend, Man Utd spends much more than many more successful teams. The game does not portray this difference good enough, at that's the cause of why the English teams seems to over perform in many saves.

TL:DR

In game; Money = Success regardless of Upper Management Skill
IRL: Money & Skill = Success, but Money without Upper Management Skill = No Success

I think that about sums it up!  

It’s a weird take! I never said about English teams! I said I’m tired of English players being so grossly overrated! England being a financial superpower in football should not reflect that! 
 

I struggle to believe that the research about players isn’t modified by SI. Again, Spanish players, in general, are way way better than English! Yet you can barely see that in the game! Just an example! 
 

[Minotti]

2 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

You've raised an interesting question but hanging it on statements like this will juat make you look silly. Saka is already waaaay above 160 CA and PA of 180+ is completely realistic. He's world class, an absolute top star. You could pick a lot of players from PL clubs in FM to make your point - you've picked the wrong one.

Nope he is not! He is a great player! Nothing else. By great I mean yea he belongs in a top 4 team but he isn’t a star. Vini jr is a star! That’s a 180 player! 

[NineCloudNine]

6 minutes ago, Minotti said:

 Again, Spanish players, in general, are way way better than English! Yet you can barely see that in the game! Just an example! 
 

Come on dude, that's just silly. You can't make wild generalisations like that. I mean, apart from anything else the La Liga player of last season was English !

Edited July 7 by NineCloudNine

[Minotti]

Just now, NineCloudNine said:

Come on dude, that's just silly. You can't make wild generalisations like that. I mean, apart from anything else the La Liga player is last season was English !

Exactly! Why are the English on average much better players than Spaniards or the Italians ? Whenever I play fm and I browse through PL teams and the players. They have insanely great players compared to if I were to manage Atalanta! Or Sevilla! 

[NineCloudNine]

1 minute ago, Minotti said:

Nope he is not! He is a great player! Nothing else. By great I mean yea he belongs in a top 4 team but he isn’t a star. Vini jr is a star! That’s a 180 player! 

Vinicius is a

Spoiler

184

player in FM24, with

Spoiler

190

potential. I suspect in FM25 those numbers will both have gone up. Saka is a

Spoiler

174

player in FM24, with

Spoiler

186

potential. So he is not on Vinicius's level yet and according to the game he has a lower ceiling. Seems right to me.

[MichaelNevo]

6 minutes ago, Minotti said:

Nope he is not! He is a great player! Nothing else. By great I mean yea he belongs in a top 4 team but he isn’t a star. Vini jr is a star! That’s a 180 player! 

You might want to check the actual data. Vini is higher in both CA and PA.

[XaW]

6 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

You mentioned researchers in a reply to a quote about developers . I don't think Spanish researchers rate their players lower than English researchers rate theirs. But I think Spanish researchers may value different attributes, reflecting their football culture. And those attributes may not be as valued in a ME developed by English developers. Hence the ME strongly favouring physical attributes (the historical English game) and not technical attributes (the historical Spanish game). I don't think there's any grand conspiracy or indeed anyone doing anything other than their very best. But I suspect it is likely that the English roots of SI and FM going back decades make it almost inevitable that there is an English flavour to the way the game world plays out.

I mentioned researchers, because they are the ones that set the attributes, the developer does not (except when a dev is a researcher also, I guess). They only make the guidelines that the researchers use. But of course there can be biases. And as you say, there are differences in what each "football culture" values vs how the game reacts to it.

So I don't disagree there might be differences to how the game works for various reasons, but I doubt there is a conscious bias playing into anything.

6 minutes ago, Minotti said:

It’s a weird take! I never said about English teams! I said I’m tired of English players being so grossly overrated! England being a financial superpower in football should not reflect that! 

I struggle to believe that the research about players isn’t modified by SI. Again, Spanish players, in general, are way way better than English! Yet you can barely see that in the game! Just an example! 

You are about a centimeter away from getting on your tin foil hat here, mate. You really think that researchers wouldn't react if they saw their players had a different rating than when they submitted their research? Your comments in here seems to be more in a anti-English sentiment rather that a real discussion about how the game favour X or Y... So I'm not seeing this a genuine open minded discussion when you use exclamation marks for every sentence like they are points to score. Take a step back and look at how you come across? Do you want to be "morally right" or do you want to see if you are indeed right in your assumptions?

For the record, I'm not English, I'm not even Western European, I'm from much more North than that, almost like there is a Way there!  

[KillYourIdols]

England in my save in 2038 for anyone interested. Point of Interest, despite a decent few wins at U19/U21 Level in 2028, 2030, 2034 and several runner up spots, the Senior Team between 2028-2036 one 1 Tournement of note, the Nations League. Rankings have them Yo-Yo'ed from 1st to 5th in the last decade.

 

However, English teams have won the Champions league 8 times out of the last 14, Which may be a bit on the high side tbh. It seems to me the game, as it has for a long time, Favours English players/Divisions but the Regens are pretty poor for long term saves.

The Top Players by Scout Report, 1 English:

 

Top Players by Transfer Value, 1 English

 

Sorry, dont do CA/PA, but generally, speaking, the game levels out after several years and England are nowhere as Dominant as the first few seasons may Suggest.

 

 

Edited July 7 by KillYourIdols

[NineCloudNine]

42 minutes ago, XaW said:

I mentioned researchers, because they are the ones that set the attributes, the developer does not (except when a dev is a researcher also, I guess). They only make the guidelines that the researchers use. But of course there can be biases. And as you say, there are differences in what each "football culture" values vs how the game reacts to it.

So I don't disagree there might be differences to how the game works for various reasons, but I doubt there is a conscious bias playing into anything.

Yes and I mentioned developers because they are the ones determining the relative impact of attributes in the ME (or at least, the original developers of the ME code did...). Hence we see that physical attributes are rated much more highly for CA and still dominate the game. My suggestion is that FM had been developed over the decades in (for example) Spain, the emphasis of the ME would be different. So it's not a surprise that English players, reflecting an English football culture which values physical effort, do well in an ME created by generations of developers steeped in that same culture. Absolutely none of this is deliberate or conscious - in fact I suspect SI are well aware of it and take steps to ameliorate it. A better reflection of different football cultures/styles is one of the hopes I have for the new engine.

Edited July 7 by NineCloudNine

[whatsupdoc]

2 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

There are three different things here.

England as a nation and national team isn’t overrated, as the screenshot above shows.

English clubs are correctly very powerful because the league is the richest in the world and FM reflects this.

I tend to agree that English players are given overly generous attributes in FM, but using Bukayo Saka as an example of this is mad - he’s world class.

I suspect that player attributes undergo some positive rebalancing based on the reputation of the club they play for. So one reason they are rated so highly is that they play for top clubs; this obviously becomes self-reinforcing over time.

The potency of physical attributes in FM also favours English players because the PL is a very physical league.

It’s an interesting question whether SI being an English company affects this. I am certain there is no grand conspiracy or wilful bias, but it is likely that English developers see the game through English eyes.

Saka isn't world class IMO.

He's quick and... like sterling... once you take that away there's not much world class there.

[NineCloudNine]

10 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Saka isn't world class IMO.

He's quick and... like sterling... once you take that away there's not much world class there.

Fine, not world class then. But he's way above 160 PA, which was the OP's claim. And a very bad example to use when claiming English players are over-rated.

[MWoolf]

If you've been playing the game since CM days, then you know that PA is only a guess about how the future might go, not a statement about present quality. 

It's a numeric way of saying 'we are excited about what this player could become.'

The game is saying that Saka could possibly develop into an elite talent given the right opportunities and coaching, but is unlikely to ever be good enough to regularly contend for the Ballon d'Or.

Can you point to any specific evidence which would help us understand why you think that SI's scouting team got that guess wrong?

[-Jef-]

10 hours ago, Minotti said:

Yea, cause going to the most dominant team in German football who also happen to be the most attacking one is such a strong argument! 

How did the greatest player of all time fare when he moved countries and joined two of the greatest attackers in a similarly dominant side? He finished the season with 11 goals in ALL competitions.

 

Oh yea, Messi couldn't adapt as well to PSG as well as Kane did to Bayern.

 

No, I am not saying that Kane is better than Messi but what he did this year is impressive. And he is an equally impressive player. Elite goalscoring, elite playmaking, elite positioning, great mentality. He is deserving of those attributes.

[starbugg]

11 hours ago, Minotti said:

Yea, cause going to the most dominant team in German football who also happen to be the most attacking one is such a strong argument! 

Bayer Leverkusen might have something to say about that last season.

[whatsupdoc]

12 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

Fine, not world class then. But he's way above 160 PA, which was the OP's claim. And a very bad example to use when claiming English players are over-rated.

His CA/PA should be whatever you need to have great pace, one strong foot, and average to slightly above average everything else...

[forameuss]

The problem isn't that England are overrated, it's that the cold, statistical machine that FM is cannot model the little intangibles that take a nation that should absolutely dominate everything, and produce...whatever England is.  They have the culture, they have the interest, and they almost certainly have the money.  I'm sure it was Houlier that said in the past that if England managed to flick that switch, they'd be a frightening prospect.  FM is them flicking that switch, because all the other stuff cannot really be modelled.  All it can really see is what it's exposed to - financial resources, FA power, youth rating, clubs, etc etc.

[Smurf]

44 minutes ago, forameuss said:

The problem isn't that England are overrated, it's that the cold, statistical machine that FM is cannot model the little intangibles that take a nation that should absolutely dominate everything, and produce...whatever England is.  They have the culture, they have the interest, and they almost certainly have the money.  I'm sure it was Houlier that said in the past that if England managed to flick that switch, they'd be a frightening prospect.  FM is them flicking that switch, because all the other stuff cannot really be modelled.  All it can really see is what it's exposed to - financial resources, FA power, youth rating, clubs, etc etc.

Historically, England have been tactically conservative and less innovative compared to others like Germany, Spain, Italy, Brazil, Argentina etc.  And it's probably true that the English players lack in technical skills, and skullful possesssion based football. 

England's youth development system are seen as inferior to those in Germany, Spain and Netherlands, there's usually a stronger emphasis on developing technical skills, there's also better quality coaching at grassroots and youth levels. That's why FA have started the Elite Player Performance Plan, trying to bridge that gap. 

The managers that England appoint are questionable, and leads to tactical issues within the national team, including team selections and in-game management. For example, Southgate opting to bring Luke Shaw who was injured for about 6 years. Bringing Adam Wharton with very little experience, (the following is a personal opinon) Kobbie Mainoo might be a good prospect but is not ready for this tournament. When you have players like Harvey Elliot who has battled for premier leagues, champions leagues, fa cups, league cups and won it all and scores against big teams etc. 

And the pressure and high expectations from fans and media are crazy - I don't live in England, I'm not English, and I can tell you all that nobody likes England, they come across as smug, arrogant etc. through the media and fans and that annoying 'it's coming home' crap is delussional - considering nothing won since 1966 - it's been 58 years... time to give it a rest. 

 

The premier league has global appeal, and has positive and negative impacts. There's an influx of foreign players and managers, which dilutes the quality of competitiveness of English footballers and can limit opportunities for domestic talent. 

And some people think it's fatigue, but I don't think so, they are young and at prime fitness - I don't really buy it, but some say it. The premier league doesn't have breaks like other leagues, so I don't know what excuse Bellingham has, he plays in Spain with 100s of other international players who don't have the same fatigue. 

 

England have suffered a number of near misses and 'bad luck' penalty shootouts 1990, 98, 2006 - 96, 2004, 2012 and 2020. 

Such fine margins and England seem to fail and be on the wrong side of the fine margins time and time again, from the likes of Gaza, Linekar etc. Shearer, Gerard, Owen, Lampard, Terry, Beckhams etc. it happens time and time again generation after generation. 

Other nations produce exceptional teams and players - which has made them superior to England time and time again, Germany, Spain, France, Italy ave had huge periods of dominance with stronger footballing cultures and effective football infrastructures. 

In recent years, there have been signs of progress, with England reaching the semi-finals of the 2018 World Cup and the final of Euro 2020. The FA's focus on improving youth development and coaching, coupled with a talented generation of players, suggests that England may be closing in on ending their long wait for a major trophy. 

[scythian12]

Hmmm I feel most of the OP's post are just ranting, but I also would be interested in 1.000 simulations of this year's CL ingame. I have an inkling there would be none which would not feature at least one English team in the semi-final. Add a factor of another 1.000 (altogether a million) and I exepct an English semi-finalist either in the CL or Europa League every time. Also some anecdotal experience of mine, playing a small nation BaN save atm, in its 20th year. It is possible (if difficult) to beat Spanish, Italian, German teams in the knockout stages of these cups. You get English opposition? No chance. Same applies for AI led clubs from the nation I am playing in - English club drawn - end of journey.

Edited July 8 by scythian12

[Kickballz]

7 hours ago, scythian12 said:

Hmmm I feel most of the OP's post are just ranting, but I also would be interested in 1.000 simulations of this year's CL ingame. I have an inkling there would be none which would not feature at least one English team in the semi-final. Add a factor of another 1.000 (altogether a million) and I exepct an English semi-finalist either in the CL or Europa League every time. Also some anecdotal experience of mine, playing a small nation BaN save atm, in its 20th year. It is possible (if difficult) to beat Spanish, Italian, German teams in the knockout stages of these cups. You get English opposition? No chance. Same applies for AI led clubs from the nation I am playing in - English club drawn - end of journey.

He has a point though. Saka is not a 180+ player. That is Neymar and Messi level - Saka is not close.

[-Jef-]

30 minutes ago, Kickballz said:

He has a point though. Saka is not a 180+ player. That is Neymar and Messi level - Saka is not close.

Neymar is 190, Messi is 200. Saka has a potential to be 180+

[starbugg]

8 hours ago, Smurf said:

...And the pressure and high expectations from fans and media are crazy - I don't live in England, I'm not English, and I can tell you all that nobody likes England, they come across as smug, arrogant etc. through the media and fans and that annoying 'it's coming home' crap is delussional - considering nothing won since 1966 - it's been 58 years... time to give it a rest. ...

It's because you are not English that you don't understand, that song along with Sweet Caroline pulls us together.

Telling an Englishman that he is delusional, smug and arrogant only makes him more determined, probably the same as most Nations.

[Kickballz]

13 minutes ago, -Jef- said:

Neymar is 190, Messi is 200. Saka has a potential to be 180+

Thanks for clarifying.

What is your opinion on Saka? Do you think he should be 180+?

[Smurf]

18 minutes ago, starbugg said:

It's because you are not English that you don't understand, that song along with Sweet Caroline pulls us together.

Telling an Englishman that he is delusional, smug and arrogant only makes him more determined, probably the same as most Nations.

Nah, it's a level above. You don't understand how irritating it is. I'm not trying to start a fight - I'm just saying the English fans and media are like nails on a chalkboard.
 

[-Jef-]

44 minutes ago, Kickballz said:

Thanks for clarifying.

What is your opinion on Saka? Do you think he should be 180+?

CA no. PA yes. Because he does have potential to be a 180 player. He has the athletic ability and technical ability to make that final step to being a truly elite winger. I mean this is the season where he needs to step up and put up 20+ goals and 10+ assists in the league. I mean his last season was already absolutely wonderful with 34 g+a in 47 games. He needs to bring that closer to 1-1 ratio.

 

But as some researcher explained on GD a year or so ago. He can create a player that is 130CA that has better attributes to a human than a 160 CA player.

[starbugg]

 

 

39 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Nah, it's a level above. You don't understand how irritating it is. I'm not trying to start a fight - I'm just saying the English fans and media are like nails on a chalkboard.
 

You don't understand and you don't like English fans.

Fair enough.

For what it is worth, I think Bowen is the better option on the right for England, but I am very very bias
 

Edited July 8 by starbugg

[Smurf]

5 minutes ago, starbugg said:

 

 

You don't understand and you don't like English fans.

Fair enough.

For what it is worth, I think Bowen is the better option on the right for England, but I am very very bias
 

Yeh it's not just me - but enough said. 
It's not really about my opinion anyway - I was just explaining a bit of the situation from an outside point of view. 
It's fine if you don't agree with it.

[starbugg]

28 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Yeh it's not just me - but enough said. 
It's not really about my opinion anyway - I was just explaining a bit of the situation from an outside point of view. 
It's fine if you don't agree with it.

So was I just trying to explain, you (and everyone else apparently) call it being delusioned I call it being optimistic.

Looking at the faces of supporters of teams knocked out of the Euros, they must have believed they could go all the way, but you just pick on the English.

Forgive me for sticking up for my country.

 

[NineCloudNine]

2 hours ago, Kickballz said:

He has a point though. Saka is not a 180+ player. That is Neymar and Messi level - Saka is not close.

Saka isn’t a 180 player, he’s at 174 CA. Messi had CA of well over 190 at his peak and is still at mid-180s now. Neymar was a 190 player. The gap between 174 and 190+ (or even between 174 and 184) is enormous because CA is heavily compressed to make 180+ extremely rarified. Literally no-one in this thread or anywhere else thinks Saka is at that level - or even at the level of Vinicius, which was the comparison the OP made.

But to use him as an example of English players being overrated is absurd. I actually tend to agree with that overall claim, but I think the overclaims are found at the level of squad players, not the stars. 

[Kickballz]

59 minutes ago, -Jef- said:

CA no. PA yes. Because he does have potential to be a 180 player. He has the athletic ability and technical ability to make that final step to being a truly elite winger. I mean this is the season where he needs to step up and put up 20+ goals and 10+ assists in the league. I mean his last season was already absolutely wonderful with 34 g+a in 47 games. He needs to bring that closer to 1-1 ratio.

 

But as some researcher explained on GD a year or so ago. He can create a player that is 130CA that has better attributes to a human than a 160 CA player.

Yeah, I remember what you are referring to with the researcher.

I pretty much agree with your take on Saka as well. I like the guy a lot. You are right that he is productive and he is only going to get better. He showed the other day that he is a match winner, and he showed a lot of bottle with the penalty.

With a player like Saka, we know what he is going to do, if he keeps producing then it is enough. Robben was the same - everyone knew what he was going to do but he did it so well they couldn't stop him. I'd like to see Saka reach the kind of level and he has time on his side.