For the love of god!!!

[Kickballz]

14 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Saka isn’t a 180 player, he’s at 174 CA. Messi had CA of well over 190 at his peak and is still at mid-180s now. Neymar was a 190 player. The gap between 174 and 190+ (or even between 174 and 184) is enormous because CA is heavily compressed to make 180+ extremely rarified. Literally no-one in this thread or anywhere else thinks Saka is at that level - or even at the level of Vinicius, which was the comparison the OP made.

But to use him as an example of English players being overrated is absurd. I actually tend to agree with that overall claim, but I think the overclaims are found at the level of squad players, not the stars. 

That is fair enough. Personally, I already moved on due to disinterest about stats, but I don't disagree with you.

[MichaelNevo]

10 hours ago, Smurf said:

Historically, England have been tactically conservative and less innovative compared to others like Germany, Spain, Italy, Brazil, Argentina etc.  And it's probably true that the English players lack in technical skills, and skullful possesssion based football. 

England's youth development system are seen as inferior to those in Germany, Spain and Netherlands, there's usually a stronger emphasis on developing technical skills, there's also better quality coaching at grassroots and youth levels. That's why FA have started the Elite Player Performance Plan, trying to bridge that gap. 

The managers that England appoint are questionable, and leads to tactical issues within the national team, including team selections and in-game management. For example, Southgate opting to bring Luke Shaw who was injured for about 6 years. Bringing Adam Wharton with very little experience, (the following is a personal opinon) Kobbie Mainoo might be a good prospect but is not ready for this tournament. When you have players like Harvey Elliot who has battled for premier leagues, champions leagues, fa cups, league cups and won it all and scores against big teams etc. 

And the pressure and high expectations from fans and media are crazy - I don't live in England, I'm not English, and I can tell you all that nobody likes England, they come across as smug, arrogant etc. through the media and fans and that annoying 'it's coming home' crap is delussional - considering nothing won since 1966 - it's been 58 years... time to give it a rest. 

 

The premier league has global appeal, and has positive and negative impacts. There's an influx of foreign players and managers, which dilutes the quality of competitiveness of English footballers and can limit opportunities for domestic talent. 

And some people think it's fatigue, but I don't think so, they are young and at prime fitness - I don't really buy it, but some say it. The premier league doesn't have breaks like other leagues, so I don't know what excuse Bellingham has, he plays in Spain with 100s of other international players who don't have the same fatigue. 

 

England have suffered a number of near misses and 'bad luck' penalty shootouts 1990, 98, 2006 - 96, 2004, 2012 and 2020. 

Such fine margins and England seem to fail and be on the wrong side of the fine margins time and time again, from the likes of Gaza, Linekar etc. Shearer, Gerard, Owen, Lampard, Terry, Beckhams etc. it happens time and time again generation after generation. 

Other nations produce exceptional teams and players - which has made them superior to England time and time again, Germany, Spain, France, Italy ave had huge periods of dominance with stronger footballing cultures and effective football infrastructures. 

In recent years, there have been signs of progress, with England reaching the semi-finals of the 2018 World Cup and the final of Euro 2020. The FA's focus on improving youth development and coaching, coupled with a talented generation of players, suggests that England may be closing in on ending their long wait for a major trophy. 

I was agreeing with everything you said until you mentioned mainoo not being ready... someone being young doesn't mean they're not good enough. Fair enough if you think someone else deserves it above him, but to say he's not ready is laughable, he's been one of uniteds brighter lights this season in a very dark place and he was part of a team that beat Manchester City for the fa cup, playing really well at the same time.

[NineCloudNine]

30 minutes ago, Kickballz said:

That is fair enough. Personally, I already moved on due to disinterest about stats, but I don't disagree with you.

Yeah sorry, I replied to your post while scrolling through, before seeing that you and another poster had already dealt with the point. 

[Kickballz]

No worries.

All my posts quickly become obsolete because I change my mind because of you guys. It is why I come here because there is a lot of sensible people

Edited July 8 by Kickballz

[phd_angel]

This is a very interesting topic. As some pointed out, UK clubs and players are overpowered.

1. As a game developer, I'd be wary that my dev teams don't introduce their own bias in FM.  BTW, since SI HQs is in London, I wonder if London clubs are overpowered vs Northern UK clubs?...

2. As a marketer, I'd specially cater to my largest market in sales, and I suppose that still is the UK. Out of curiosity, I had asked for some stats in 2019, which our dear Neil Brock kindly shared, but some gatekeeper at SI has since blocked the report: 

 
===> Yet, if FM plans on growing across international markets, it will have to be more sensitive to international football preferences.

Edited July 8 by phd_angel

[XaW]

18 minutes ago, phd_angel said:

As a marketer, I'd specially cater to my largest market in sales, and I suppose that still is the UK. Out of curiosity, I had asked for some stats in 2019, which our dear Neil Brock kindly shared, but some gatekeeper at SI has since blocked the report: 

Referring to Miles as "some gatekeeper at SI" is quite the comment...

That said, that the boss of a company don't publicly release their sales numbers in detail to a random person online seems a tad strange of a stick to beat SI with.

[phd_angel]

17 minutes ago, XaW said:

Referring to Miles as "some gatekeeper at SI" is quite the comment...

That said, that the boss of a company don't publicly release their sales numbers in detail to a random person online seems a tad strange of a stick to beat SI with.

You should not put words in my mouth regarding who blocked the data report.

The data was openly available for a while, until someone at SI blocked it. It was never about sales but the nationality of players.

I'm flabbergasted that such nonsense, snide remarks would come from a moderator... How old are you, dude?

 

[Kickballz]

1 minute ago, phd_angel said:

You should not put words in my mouth regarding who blocked the data report.

The data was openly available for a while, until someone at SI blocked it. It was never about sales but the nationality of players.

I'm flabbergasted that such nonsense, snide remarks would come from a moderator... How old are you, dude?

 

I have this feeling that your time on this forum might be coming to an end.

[starbugg]

I have always been impressed by XaW's moderating, he certainly does not deserve to be talked to like that.

[Smurf]

8 hours ago, MichaelNevo said:

I was agreeing with everything you said until you mentioned mainoo not being ready... someone being young doesn't mean they're not good enough. Fair enough if you think someone else deserves it above him, but to say he's not ready is laughable, he's been one of uniteds brighter lights this season in a very dark place and he was part of a team that beat Manchester City for the fa cup, playing really well at the same time.

He's not that good

[XaW]

12 hours ago, phd_angel said:

You should not put words in my mouth regarding who blocked the data report.

The data was openly available for a while, until someone at SI blocked it. It was never about sales but the nationality of players.

I'm flabbergasted that such nonsense, snide remarks would come from a moderator... How old are you, dude?

Don't know what you are on about, mate. I quoted you, and in the thread YOU linked, Neil said that Miles keeps it, and that you can ask him on Twitter because he is the one who is the gatekeeper of what goes public from SI. Not sure what part of that is me putting words in your mouth.

Not sure why you got your panties in a bunch, nor was it any snide comments. It's was a surprise for me to see you refer to Miles as "someone" when he is rather well known as the big gaffer of FM...

Also, if you dislike how I act here on these forums, you are more than welcome to use the "contact us" button at the bottom of the page and report me to SI.

I'm well above the age where I get triggered by randoms on the internet, I can tell you that much.

If you really wish to continue this, feel free to PM me and let's avoid cluttering threads with this.

[XaW]

12 hours ago, Kickballz said:

I have this feeling that your time on this forum might be coming to an end.

I'm not that light skinned that this will do anything to me!  

11 hours ago, starbugg said:

I have always been impressed by XaW's moderating, he certainly does not deserve to be talked to like that.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I can fight my own battles  

[MichaelNevo]

12 hours ago, Smurf said:

He's not that good

Well you're entitled to your opinion of course. I'm interested to know why you came to that conclusion, but I suppose it's a bit off topic so we'll leave it at that 

[Smurf]

Just now, MichaelNevo said:

Well you're entitled to your opinion of course. I'm interested to know why you came to that conclusion, but I suppose it's a bit off topic so we'll leave it at that 

Just another classic example of rushing youth talent to the top to get the nationality secured. 

There's no way he should be in the Euro Squad with other players not getting the nod ahead of him. 

Only explanation, they want to make sure he doesn't switch to Ghana.

[MichaelNevo]

9 minutes ago, Smurf said:

Just another classic example of rushing youth talent to the top to get the nationality secured. 

There's no way he should be in the Euro Squad with other players not getting the nod ahead of him. 

Only explanation, they want to make sure he doesn't switch to Ghana.

Famous quote "if you're good enough, you're old enough". (Sir Matt Busby)

Don't get me wrong, I know where you're coming from because we have had several examples of what you speak of, but I've watched this kid all season and nothing seems to phase him at all. He gives off some of those Bellingham vibes when he broke into the team. He's had some playing time already in the Euro's and if anything he makes this bad team look slightly better and you definitely can't blame him whatsoever for how the team has been playing. Should he have been picked ahead of others? Well I suppose there's an argument for that to be no, but the fact is he is playing and he's barely put a foot wrong, so just get behind him 

[Smurf]

38 minutes ago, MichaelNevo said:

Famous quote "if you're good enough, you're old enough". (Sir Matt Busby)

Don't get me wrong, I know where you're coming from because we have had several examples of what you speak of, but I've watched this kid all season and nothing seems to phase him at all. He gives off some of those Bellingham vibes when he broke into the team. He's had some playing time already in the Euro's and if anything he makes this bad team look slightly better and you definitely can't blame him whatsoever for how the team has been playing. Should he have been picked ahead of others? Well I suppose there's an argument for that to be no, but the fact is he is playing and he's barely put a foot wrong, so just get behind him 

Bellingham isn't that good either. Yeh I know who he plays for but I don't think he will be longevity at real Madrid. 

Hard to see a foot wrong when so many are playing below par.

 

These lads are not world class.

Certainly not Bellijgham. 

 

I don't get the hype.

 

But whatever.

[MichaelNevo]

1 minute ago, Smurf said:

Bellingham isn't that good either. Yeh I know who he plays for but I don't think he will be longevity at real Madrid. 

Hard to see a foot wrong when so many are playing below par.

 

These lads are not world class.

Certainly not Bellijgham. 

 

I don't get the hype.

 

But whatever.

Nobody ever said they were world class... There's hype around Bellingham because of who he plays for and the good season he just had. He's definitely got loads more to prove before he could be considered world class. Mainoo is just a kid on his breakthrough season, so I don't know who's been going around saying he's world class for you to react towards him that way, give the lad a break...

[Smurf]

10 minutes ago, MichaelNevo said:

Nobody ever said they were world class... There's hype around Bellingham because of who he plays for and the good season he just had. He's definitely got loads more to prove before he could be considered world class. Mainoo is just a kid on his breakthrough season, so I don't know who's been going around saying he's world class for you to react towards him that way, give the lad a break...

 

No point in this really - it's just my opinion - it's not important. 

 

[starbugg]

I agree with everything every one says

Edited July 10 by starbugg

[kiwityke1983]

On 10/07/2024 at 00:00, Smurf said:

Just another classic example of rushing youth talent to the top to get the nationality secured. 

There's no way he should be in the Euro Squad with other players not getting the nod ahead of him. 

Only explanation, they want to make sure he doesn't switch to Ghana.

Do you have a single opinion that isn't just obvious anti-Englishness?

There's no way he was switching to play for Ghana unless his career fell off a cliff!

He was born and raised in Manchester had played at every level for England at youth and is a starter for one of the top 6 sides in the Prem!

Just absolutely no danger of him switching to Ghana!

[NineCloudNine]

On 09/07/2024 at 19:07, Smurf said:

Bellingham isn't that good either. Yeh I know who he plays for but I don't think he will be longevity at real Madrid. 

Hard to see a foot wrong when so many are playing below par.

 

These lads are not world class.

Certainly not Bellijgham. 

 

I don't get the hype.

 

But whatever.

Bellingham was an international at 17, he was Bundesliga player of the year at 19 and La Liga player of the year at 20. He’s the current World U21 player of the year and is at worst going to be a Euros runner-up at 21. It’s hard to know what you think would justify hype if not that.

”World Class” is such a slippery term. People use it to mean anyone slightly better than whoever it is they are saying isn’t world class . On Bellingham, I’m going to trust the judgement of Carlo Ancelotti, rather than Smurf off the internet .

[Smurf]

2 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Bellingham was an international at 17, he was Bundesliga player of the year at 19 and La Liga player of the year at 20. He’s the current World U21 player of the year and is at worst going to be a Euros runner-up at 21. It’s hard to know what you think would justify hype if not that.

”World Class” is such a slippery term. People use it to mean anyone slightly better than whoever it is they are saying isn’t world class . On Bellingham, I’m going to trust the judgement of Carlo Ancelotti, rather than Smurf off the internet .

I don't care much for the Player of the Season (a new award in Bundesliga) - these player of the year, and awards like this are meaningless.

Hardly means they are Messi/Ronaldo/Ronaldinho 

Actually it's an indictment of the level of quality that exists in Bundesliga and La Liga. 

So when I say things like he isn't world class, I don't ever mean he's not a good footballer, that's obvious that he is. Greece won the Euros one year, doesn't mean those players are better than other players, it just means the team had a lucky tournament. 

I fail to see what is so good about Bellingham.

And all I mean when I say things like that is, he's not my type of player. 

I think there are players way way way better him out there. That's subjective, and my opinion.

And this is a forum - which literally translates as 'a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged'

So get off your high horse and cut out the personal attacks. 

My ideas and views on particular issues are mine - no need to insult me or personally attack me.

Thanks

[NineCloudNine]

33 minutes ago, Smurf said:

 

And this is a forum - which literally translates as 'a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged'

So get off your high horse and cut out the personal attacks. 

My ideas and views on particular issues are mine - no need to insult me or personally attack me.

Thanks

That also means people get to disagree with you lol. You and I are literally ‘exchanging ideas and views on a particular issue’. Perhaps though, if your threshold of “personal attack” and “insult” is being unfavourably compared to Carlo Ancelotti, even mild forums like this are going to be triggering.

The irony here is that - to return to the thread topic - I agree with the suggestion that English players overperform in FM. I don’t believe this is because they have inflated attributes though, I think it’s because the FM engine reflects the traditional English football emphasis on physical characteristics. It’s a longstanding cultural imprint, not a systematic overrating of players, which is why I think picking out Saka, or Bellingham, as examples of the bias is absurd.

[Stone Cold]

As if English regens being overpowered is the only unrealistic part of FM. 

You can easily win the Champions League with Benfica or Ajax just a few seasons into a new save. And I've seen clubs like Ross County reach the Europa League semi-finals and Slavia Prague win the Conference League. Not to mention Ecuador won the 2026 World Cup in my FM24.

Anyway, back to England...

They are, once again, in the Euro final. They don't play very attractive football, but have had good runs since the 2018 World Cup. If they had a better manager than Southgate they could be a serious case since they do have a lot of individual quality. That being said, England winning an international competition would not be fun since we all know how annoying a lot of their fans and their media are. But oh well, not something we can control and such is life.

[Smurf]

On 11/07/2024 at 09:18, NineCloudNine said:

That also means people get to disagree with you lol. You and I are literally ‘exchanging ideas and views on a particular issue’. Perhaps though, if your threshold of “personal attack” and “insult” is being unfavourably compared to Carlo Ancelotti, even mild forums like this are going to be triggering.

The irony here is that - to return to the thread topic - I agree with the suggestion that English players overperform in FM. I don’t believe this is because they have inflated attributes though, I think it’s because the FM engine reflects the traditional English football emphasis on physical characteristics. It’s a longstanding cultural imprint, not a systematic overrating of players, which is why I think picking out Saka, or Bellingham, as examples of the bias is absurd.

It was a personal attack, and not welcome - if that's your reasoning then you might as well not bother reading forums, participating in them, replying to other users, just go and listen to Carlo Ancelotti, because no other opinion matters according to you. 

We all have favourite players and playing styles. And I'm sure Ancelotti has too. 

I don't rate English players as much as I would other players who play in the Premier League, and across Europe etc players are much better.
Bellingham is any midfielder, he's like Jordan Henderson, just there and there about, a lot of faffing about in midfield, sideway and backward passing. I really didn't like Henderson at Liverpool, a huge huge downgrade from Gerrard - in my opinion (I have no idea what Ancelottis view on this is!) 
Bellingham in my opinion is worse than Henderson, and that's saying something. 

All the big stars that were supposed to light up England and progress them to winners, Sterling, Grealish, Dele Ali, Maguire, Chilwell, White, Henderson, Phillips, Rashford, Ramsdale, Sancho... 
All these players are finished already at the international level - how crazy is that? 

This is what England do - burn out the best and brightest young talents, and the standards and pressure on all of them has absolutely ruined them.

They bring players like Mainoo, Wharton, Eze, Guehi, Konsa, Shaw, Bowen, Gordon, Toney
Players who have achieved relatively little at their clubs or injured constantly. 
And players who have been competing and winning Leagues, Cups, Champions Leagues etc don't get a look in. 

Southgate picks the weirdest squad. Maybe it is a stroke of genius, bring a starting 11 and some other players so there are not so many egos in the squad. 

 

Getting to another Euros final on the easiest path possible is not success in my eyes, and many others. 

Even if they do win it, it will be more like a Greece win than a Portugal win, if you get my drift. 

Don't even get me started on Foden, the lad has not got it for big games, he's fine at Man City, homely, around superstars who create acres of space for him, and we've seen bits of this at England, but he'll never that freedom because the England players egos are through the roof and wouldn't offer that same freedom. And he needs it, the lad looks like a headless chicken running around for England - every match - every time. I sincerely doubt he'd start for another top team, I couldn't see him starting anywhere else for a top 4 club in any league. 

Now go ask Ancelotti what he thinks. You're so pally with him. 

Rant over.

[Smurf]

*queue Foden getting a hattrick against Spain now I've said the above... 
** but that will ultimately just fuel is already inflated ego and bring him to Sterling levels in a few short years.

Edited July 13 by Smurf

[El Payaso]

How does Evan Ferguson compare to for example Dovbyk and Sorloth this year in the data?

I don't check the CAs and PAs at all, so I have no idea, but I think Ferguson has become a really good striker in the previous editions of FM even though he hasn't really shown any signs of that kind of potential in real life. Might also be that he is pacey and FM simply masses through on goal type of scoring chances. 

[XaW]

7 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

How does Evan Ferguson compare to for example Dovbyk and Sorloth this year in the data?

I don't check the CAs and PAs at all, so I have no idea, but I think Ferguson has become a really good striker in the previous editions of FM even though he hasn't really shown any signs of that kind of potential in real life. Might also be that he is pacey and FM simply masses through on goal type of scoring chances. 

Evan Ferguson has

Spoiler

CA 139, PA -95 (160-190)

Artem Dovbyk has

Spoiler

CA 150, PA 155

Alexander Sørloth has

Spoiler

CA 143, PA 148

That said, not sure why we are comparing a 18 year old vs 2 players well into their career. Other than the latter two having quite amazing goalscoring records this season what's the comparison?

I haven't seen much about Ferguson or Dovbyk, but being a Norwegian I've seen enough about Sørloth to say that is probably quite on point. He can be a menace if he is on a team that fits him, but he can also fall quite short. This season, where he almost became top scorer in Spain, is an outlier based on what he has shown before (the season at Trabzonspor aside). I would say he does really well along another striker in a 4-4-2 type tactic, but struggle as a lone striker, even with his stature and physicals.

As for Evan Ferguson, I haven't seen that much of him, as I said, but I would accept that his CA is a bit high based on his statistics in real life.

[El Payaso]

27 minutes ago, XaW said:

Evan Ferguson has

  Reveal hidden contents

CA 139, PA -95 (160-190)

Artem Dovbyk has

  Reveal hidden contents

CA 150, PA 155

Alexander Sørloth has

  Reveal hidden contents

CA 143, PA 148

That said, not sure why we are comparing a 18 year old vs 2 players well into their career. 

Just to see how his current ability compares to the two top scorers in La Liga. 

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

Just to see how his current ability compares to the two top scorers in La Liga. 

Well, it's lower than both, but perhaps not by enough.

That said, CA is not as important as attribute distribution.

[NineCloudNine]

10 hours ago, El Payaso said:

Just to see how his current ability compares to the two top scorers in La Liga. 

There’s lots of reasons why this is an interesting question, which I am sure is why you picked these particular players 

Firstly Ferguson is Irish, so if he is over-rated in FM it’s not because of any bias towards English players, but might be an example of players at English clubs being over-rated.

Secondly he’s young. Predicting the PA of young players is so difficult that it might be more realistic to stop trying and give every player under 22 (or, indeed, just every player) a random PA between their current CA and the max. There is always excitement about breakthrough kids and it is easy to imagine researchers getting a little carried away sometimes.

Thirdly, he’s big and fast. Physical attributes burn a lot of CA so a big fast kid will have higher CA than average for their age. This might be because of early maturity and it may well lead to a CA which doesn’t really reflect how ‘good’ they are. This kinda reflects what hapoens IRL too.

I think, like XaW, that Ferguson’s current CA/PA are over-stated in FM based on some precocious early performances and his physical development. However, the margin for error for a player like him is so huge that the researchers are basically guessing. Come back in 5-6 years !

[El Payaso]

16 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

There’s lots of reasons why this is an interesting question, which I am sure is why you picked these particular players 

Firstly Ferguson is Irish, so if he is over-rated in FM it’s not because of any bias towards English players, but might be an example of players at English clubs being over-rated.

I don't think that the problem has ever been a bias towards English players but the fact that at least in the past English teams and leagues tend to have way more researchers compared to La Liga for example. 

I remember in the past FMs about ten years ago playing almost only with Athletic Bilbao and what I noticed was that the first-team players' attributes barely changed between different versions of the game. They were almost identical for 2-3 versions in a row. 

I don't know how this is nowadays but in the past the past the data was updated way less in Spain compared to England. 

[NineCloudNine]

27 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

I don't think that the problem has ever been a bias towards English players but the fact that at least in the past English teams and leagues tend to have way more researchers compared to La Liga for example. 

I remember in the past FMs about ten years ago playing almost only with Athletic Bilbao and what I noticed was that the first-team players' attributes barely changed between different versions of the game. They were almost identical for 2-3 versions in a row. 

I don't know how this is nowadays but in the past the past the data was updated way less in Spain compared to England. 

Yes I agree. I spend a lot of time in the editor and mostly play in La Liga, and some of the data gaps are really bad. Just as an example, Unai Simon has 0s (ie random) for all his character attributes. That’s quite the gap.

I am sure the Spanish researchers do their very best but it seems that there aren’t enough of them. And you are right to observe thay this is likely to affect in the in-game strength of the leagues.

[El Payaso]

3 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

Yes I agree. I spend a lot of time in the editor and mostly play in La Liga, and some of the data gaps are really bad. Just as an example, Unai Simon has 0s (ie random) for all his character attributes. That’s quite the gap.

I am sure the Spanish researchers do their very best but it seems that there aren’t enough of them. And you are right to observe thay this is likely to affect in the in-game strength of the leagues.

That's both odd and sad that big leagues like La Liga aren't covered well enough and that obviously creates these kind of data gaps.

I think in English leagues even singular teams have their own specialists to rather low levels while in Spain for example big teams like Real Madrid and Barcelona might be quite well up-to-date but otherwise the data is left behind. 

Then there are those fan-made data updates that sink deeper but on those it is hard to say where the focus is. There might be a significant amount of changes to the data but if those also mainly go into the English leagues, it doesn't help much. 

But this is definitely an area that should be improved. 

[scythian12]

Hmmm yes you can also have a look at the two wingers who would incidentally be both eligible for Ghana on both finalist teams, then marvel at their CA and PA values in the DB and contrast this with the input your eyes were exposed to the last three weeks.

[MWoolf]

5 hours ago, scythian12 said:

Hmmm yes you can also have a look at the two wingers who would incidentally be both eligible for Ghana on both finalist teams, then marvel at their CA and PA values in the DB and contrast this with the input your eyes were exposed to the last three weeks.

International tournaments are a notoriously bad source of information on how a player will perform in actual league play.  Lots of flops have been signed on the strength of a good world cup.

I'm not saying anything about the relative merits of Nico Williams and Bukayo Saka, or whether SI got either of them right.

I'm just saying that it would take a lot of watching regular season Athletic and Arsenal games to come up with a fair judgement of them.

[Cloud9]

On 13/07/2024 at 11:28, XaW said:

Evan Ferguson has

  Hide contents

CA 139, PA -95 (160-190)

Artem Dovbyk has

  Reveal hidden contents

CA 150, PA 155

Alexander Sørloth has

  Reveal hidden contents

CA 143, PA 148

That said, not sure why we are comparing a 18 year old vs 2 players well into their career. Other than the latter two having quite amazing goalscoring records this season what's the comparison?

I haven't seen much about Ferguson or Dovbyk, but being a Norwegian I've seen enough about Sørloth to say that is probably quite on point. He can be a menace if he is on a team that fits him, but he can also fall quite short. This season, where he almost became top scorer in Spain, is an outlier based on what he has shown before (the season at Trabzonspor aside). I would say he does really well along another striker in a 4-4-2 type tactic, but struggle as a lone striker, even with his stature and physicals.

As for Evan Ferguson, I haven't seen that much of him, as I said, but I would accept that his CA is a bit high based on his statistics in real life.

Evan Ferguson seemed like the closest thing to a guaranteed superstar two years ago in the striker department, a wonderfully technically gifted striker with inherent physical qualities to set him apart. He's put up 6 premier league goals in each of the last two seasons...the lad is only 19 still.

Really he's just out of the spotlight since Brighton spent big on Joao Pedro (another precocious talent, but one who is significantly more experienced). Perhaps Ferguson has been a casualty of Brighton trying to perform now a bit more under De Zerbi.

Ferguson is also Irish! Not English, so I'm not sure what people are having a go about here lol. 

Edited July 15 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

For what it's worth I posted this a few days ago on CA/PA imbalance by nation:

It's an issue I'd like to see addressed on FM25, particularly with how minimal the Winter data update was. England's fifteen players over 160 CA to Spain's four clearly wasn't agreed upon by the bookies who gave Spain 8 to 5 odds as the favorites going into the clash. Argentina who have just completed a historic back to back to back Copa America, World Cup, Copa America victory only have three.

This problem is even worse for non-EU players who can be starting for their country, their high profile club team, winning trophies and not progressing in FM. For example: Lucas Paqueta has been one of the best midfielders in the league for the past few years (while winning a European trophy with West Ham and starting for Brazil) and still sits below Connor Gallagher in terms of CA/PA  Unfortunately, CA/PA is inherently not a merit based system.

Paqueta's quality is clearly represented in the stats (and that Man City wanted to sign him for 85m pounds). Here's Paqueta's Fbref profile:

Personality is especially important on FM24 with the new development curve pushed back...so the bias in giving European and particularly English players stronger personalities than their competition is compounded. I ran a Brazilian only save for fun one year and almost every single player in my squad was "balanced," which is not a good personality. I get that SI may not know foreign leagues as well but many of these players play either in Europe or at high profile South American clubs where there is quite a lot of info on them.

For example: Joao Pedro, who I referenced above, has been in England for four or five years now and his personality is still balanced. This is despite him making a big money move back to the top flight of English football and now performing as the starting striker for Brighton where he bagged 15 goals in the Premier League + Europa League. His CA/PA is below Connor Gallagher. Joao Pedro is also a Brazilian international. 

You will notice other high profile South American players who have been in their national teams and playing in the Premier League continually given poor personalities. Danilo and Murillo (Danilo has been called up to the Brazil squad and Murillo was Forest's Player of the Season) both feature balanced personalities, again, this year. Danilo has been given decent PA, but since he's also been given a poor personality it's unlikely he will progress significantly in game.

Paqueta is also unsurprisingly balanced. This for a player who has played in Europe since 2019 (Milan, Lyon, West Ham) and far precedes his current alleged gambling issues. 

Edited July 15 by Cloud9

[El Payaso]

3 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Ferguson is also Irish! Not English, so I'm not sure what people are having a go about here lol. 

Because I am more on about Premier League players in general compared to rest of the world. I think looking at 6 goals per season striker compared to the two best goalscorers in Spain is a valid thing to look at. Obviously I might be wrong about my views though as I don't look at the CA & PA stats at all to keep my gameplay more interesting. 

 

[scythian12]

5 hours ago, MWoolf said:

International tournaments are a notoriously bad source of information on how a player will perform in actual league play.  Lots of flops have been signed on the strength of a good world cup.

I'm not saying anything about the relative merits of Nico Williams and Bukayo Saka, or whether SI got either of them right.

I'm just saying that it would take a lot of watching regular season Athletic and Arsenal games to come up with a fair judgement of them.

That is undoubtedly true about international tournaments (tho both teams played 7 games which equates to a European Competition group stage or a quarter-season in a league). However, the difference between them is that between  title contender and relegation battler or star and fringe player in a club perspective. Exacerbated by the fact that Saka excels in the qualities already heavily favoured by the game's mechanics. Williams could under certain conditions be as good in the game as Saka is already considered to be...

[kiwityke1983]

1 hour ago, El Payaso said:

Because I am more on about Premier League players in general compared to rest of the world. I think looking at 6 goals per season striker compared to the two best goalscorers in Spain is a valid thing to look at. Obviously I might be wrong about my views though as I don't look at the CA & PA stats at all to keep my gameplay more interesting. 

 

Ferguson being over rated is possibly because he was a starter for Brighton, so if his CA was too low he'd never get picked by the AI and people would complain his CA is too low.

I've never actually seen him play IRL so can't comment on his actual ability.

[kiwityke1983]

I'll tell you an English player who absolutely needs a debuff Harry Kane.

I've thought for ages he 100% needs the "hates big matches" trait because he has repeatedly failed to turn up in a single big game.

Last night's final a perfect case in point. Rated 1 out of 10 by some and they were being generous 😂 

[scythian12]

4 hours ago, kiwityke1983 said:

I'll tell you an English player who absolutely needs a debuff Harry Kane.

I've thought for ages he 100% needs the "hates big matches" trait because he has repeatedly failed to turn up in a single big game.

Last night's final a perfect case in point. Rated 1 out of 10 by some and they were being generous 😂 

The CL scoring charts disagree. The issue is not with Englishmen, especially not the ones playing abroad, it is with the English league.

[Cloud9]

6 hours ago, El Payaso said:

Because I am more on about Premier League players in general compared to rest of the world. I think looking at 6 goals per season striker compared to the two best goalscorers in Spain is a valid thing to look at. Obviously I might be wrong about my views though as I don't look at the CA & PA stats at all to keep my gameplay more interesting. 

 

Yes, I think the high CA/PA was due to how he scored the goals (technical/composed finishes) at such a young age + the physical profile that's quite rare on a striker (and the one that everyone is looking for). It's also quite unusual to see an 18 year old start as a striker and score goals...similar to centerbacks (see the hype around Leny Yoro). Ie. there will be more hype around an 18 year old who is starting in these positions compared to a winger.

This + the Premier League is a higher level than Spain at the moment (and playing for a team that excels at identifying young talent). English clubs have more money due to foreign ownership/tv rights and are able to attract quality players and coaches. Even teams at the bottom like Bournemouth or Forest are able to sign top players from high tier Spanish clubs + take rising managers like Iraola. 

Here's an excellent example of why he's rated so highly (both links from Brighton themselves):

• A backheel flick with his weaker foot:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljJQ3enHJq8
• Hatrick against Newcastle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFCmXsumgVU

Spain vs England TV rights split:

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[MWoolf]

5 hours ago, scythian12 said:

That is undoubtedly true about international tournaments (tho both teams played 7 games which equates to a European Competition group stage or a quarter-season in a league). However, the difference between them is that between  title contender and relegation battler or star and fringe player in a club perspective. Exacerbated by the fact that Saka excels in the qualities already heavily favoured by the game's mechanics. Williams could under certain conditions be as good in the game as Saka is already considered to be...

You mean in the final?  One match is hardly a fair measuring stick, especially given the fact that England was under pressure the whole game. 

Both teams may have played 7 games, but Williams only played 6. 

Saka played all 7, but was played all over the pitch by a tactically.....eccentric Gareth Southgate.

Looking at the full 2023/24 season stats for both Saka and Williams on fbref, Saka was very comfortably the better player.

How much of that is due to player ability and how much is the surrounding team and tactical choices would be a fascinating question to explore.

[Cloud9]

3 minutes ago, scythian12 said:

The CL scoring charts disagree. The issue is not with Englishmen, especially not the ones playing abroad, it is with the English league.

I would disagree with this. Yes Kane is a great player coming off the back of an incredible Bayern season and a very weak Euros but he has been consistency at an extremely high CA/PA for the last few years. If you compare his ratings to Benzema (a higher quality, more impactful but similar mould striker), who was unplayable on the biggest stage...Kane has consistently received higher ratings than Benzema over his years at Madrid (except for the year that Benzema won the golden ball). There is little in FM to reflect how poor Kane is for his team out of possession in game and that he does in fact, not enjoy big matches. 

Non English Players see more nerfs based on form compared to English players who tend to stay at the level if they underperform. You can look at other players like Sterling, Rashford etc. for players who maintain an extremely high CA/PA (especially compared to what other nations receive) despite their performances and lack of inclusion in their national team setup. Sterling does not even start for Chelsea anymore and sits at 160+CA on top of having comparable off the ball to Oshimen. 

Again the rating systems need to be based more objectively on performance, international appearances, trophies and stats and not just vibes. This would create a much more balanced system between countries. We can argue over if one player is over/undervalued but it's clear by the numbers I posted above (England having 15 players of 160CA+ compared to Spain's 4) that English players are consistently rated higher than their competition despite performance. 

[benefactor_r]

ALL English players (in the Premier league) are insanely overrated year after year, at least since CM4. Everyone but fanboys from England is annoyed by that. We know that England is the biggest market for the game, but it is embarrassingly biased.

When I used to mod the game, the first thing I would do is to decrease PA and CA of all English players by 20. Plus some further adjustments. No English player should have PA/CA over 160.

Edited July 15 by benefactor_r

[Cloud9]

On 08/07/2024 at 00:52, forameuss said:

The problem isn't that England are overrated, it's that the cold, statistical machine that FM is cannot model the little intangibles that take a nation that should absolutely dominate everything, and produce...whatever England is.  They have the culture, they have the interest, and they almost certainly have the money.  I'm sure it was Houlier that said in the past that if England managed to flick that switch, they'd be a frightening prospect.  FM is them flicking that switch, because all the other stuff cannot really be modelled.  All it can really see is what it's exposed to - financial resources, FA power, youth rating, clubs, etc etc.

This is an interesting point, but I think it glosses over some key weaknesses in English players at the moment. England is producing strong youth players, but they are players who lack an edge and the ability to control games which is pivotal to success in football. Declan Rice optimizes the rating of English players in FM...sitting almost on PAR with Rodri even though Rice does not have the ability to receive the ball in tight spaces or control the game at all. While Rice is a wonderful carrier of the ball, they are unfortunately not on the same planet.

• We have seen this "arrogance" of perceived English quality time and time again and it's quite frustrating as a long suffering English supporter myself. 
• This euros loss to Spain is essentially the same problem as the last one (where Verratti and Jorginho possessed qualities to control the match that English players simply do not have). The narrative that English players being the best is holding us back in international football...and this is reflected in FM.

Specifically the lack of technical midfielders who can dictate/control the game in the center of the pitch is a weakness that isn't properly factored in. Spain's technical players who can do this (Fabian Ruiz and friends) are undervalued when you'd pick them over the perceivably stronger England players all day long. The willingness to scrap out wins, which both Spain and Argentina possess, is also undervalued in game (and not present in the England squad)...and has just seen Argentina complete three top tier international trophies on the bounce. 

Ratings need to be based on performance and statistics, not just perception. 

Edited July 15 by Cloud9

[DavutOzkan]

There is definitely a lack of researchers for the other top leagues in the world. 

For example, my team Athletic Club, are one of the biggest clubs in Spain but do not seem to have a dedicated researcher, and ratings for some of their key players this year have been really off (including Simon as someone mentioned earlier). There's been discussion about this in the thread dedicated to Athletic on the Good Player and Team Guides subforum here. And as was also alluded to earlier in the thread, the winter update really didn't change anything. 

[Minotti]

5 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

This is an interesting point, but I think it glosses over some key weaknesses in English players at the moment. England is producing strong youth players, but they are players who lack an edge and the ability to control games which is pivotal to success in football. Declan Rice optimizes the rating of English players in FM...sitting almost on PAR with Rodri even though Rice does not have the ability to receive the ball in tight spaces or control the game at all. While Rice is a wonderful carrier of the ball, they are unfortunately not on the same planet.

• We have seen this "arrogance" of perceived English quality time and time again and it's quite frustrating as a long suffering English supporter myself. 
• This euros loss to Spain is essentially the same problem as the last one (where Verratti and Jorginho possessed qualities to control the match that English players simply do not have). The narrative that English players being the best is holding us back in international football...and this is reflected in FM.

Specifically the lack of technical midfielders who can dictate/control the game in the center of the pitch is a weakness that isn't properly factored in. Spain's technical players who can do this (Fabian Ruiz and friends) are undervalued when you'd pick them over the perceivably stronger England players all day long. The willingness to scrap out wins, which both Spain and Argentina possess, is also undervalued in game (and not present in the England squad)...and has just seen Argentina complete three top tier international trophies on the bounce. 

Ratings need to be based on performance and statistics, not just perception. 

I like this post a lot! I don’t necessarily agree that englands lack of success is due to not having midfielders that can control the game cause the implication would be that to win, you have to dominate the midfield. 
 

england can win without a Rodri or insta and xavi/pirlo type of midfielders. The problem is that the attacking players are too overrated. Up until this year rashford was the new guy in town! Then it’s saka etc. and I’ve seen it all before. From Joe Cole to Walcott to sterling to saka. It’s not hindsight to say that none of the neutral fans rates these attacking players like the English did! Sterling, saka. Just change name, same sort of potential and current ability! (Not same type of player). 
 

Up until this years edition Anthony martial had 20 in dribbling and insane technical stats! WHERE/WHEN DID HE PLAY to warrant those stats?? I know he is French but my original post, while it was focused about English players it was also about how players in premier league also get overrated!