For the love of god!!!

[scythian12]

7 hours ago, MWoolf said:

You mean in the final?  One match is hardly a fair measuring stick, especially given the fact that England was under pressure the whole game. 

Both teams may have played 7 games, but Williams only played 6. 

Saka played all 7, but was played all over the pitch by a tactically.....eccentric Gareth Southgate.

Looking at the full 2023/24 season stats for both Saka and Williams on fbref, Saka was very comfortably the better player.

How much of that is due to player ability and how much is the surrounding team and tactical choices would be a fascinating question to explore.

I would not want to say that one player is 100 % objectively better than the other. However it should also be clear that you cannot have two players in the same tournament for half a handful of high-profile games where one plays against arguably better opposition and delivers better stats and yet the other is considered to be an entire "class" above him... But this is an instance, quite a salient one, is just one of many examples of the Premier League being (in my opinion quite unjustfully) given unfair preference. As squad building is essentially teams keeping level in this game, this frankly means that nothing will happen to the PL as clubs simply have the better statted players, which means they will simply just keep this up by signing others to stay level and extend upon the rep and financial advantage it already has ingame. The previous two seasons signs have been pointing this way, however this season showed that the PL is not end all be all - and I do not see a single scenario in FM that would simulate this correctly. Now one can philosophise about whether the previous seasons or this season has been more the outlier, yet the issue remains firmly - the PL and the English game is a monolithic bloc of supremeness ingame which seems not that strictly replicated IRL. Now I do not say this is "on purpose" as in SI are being England fanboys, but as many have pointed out, in more sublte ways their focus manifests - the emphasis on physicality in the ME and the lack of skill / variance in the computer's teambuilding skill leads to a rather stale game-world with an evil supervillain which cannot be slain - whereas in real life it is more like a gang of ne'er-do-wells with a particularly bad one when it comes to intra-league inbalance. My main issue has hence two components, one is relevant to the discussion, which would be the OPness of the PL, but another factor is teambuilding, which essentially means the AI not doing anything better or worse but signing players who are in the CA range of the current team ad nauseam, which just extends the PLs state well into decades of a save, whereas I would like to see more of a bat of a butterfly wing causing a bit of variance in the system. With the example of Saka and Williams, ingame, Arsenal could easily sign Williams as a backup, not play him at all, and he would be happy till the end of his footballing days on the bench in North London. Essentially the AI would see, yes, I have an inferior CA to the first team, yet I am at a reputable club, hence I would very much like to stay here and pop in for my odd game when the first line is injured just to cement the PL's dominance over the other leagues because their star players are easy bench fodder in the PL and are quite happy to serve this purpose.

[Cloud9]

4 hours ago, Minotti said:

I like this post a lot! I don’t necessarily agree that englands lack of success is due to not having midfielders that can control the game cause the implication would be that to win, you have to dominate the midfield. 

In general I think the game is usually won or lost in midfield. Even sides comfortable playing out of possession have technical players capable of taking care of possession on the ball (Kroos, Modric for Madrid) who are all important to their success. It is the player who can receive the ball in difficult moments who is so key. 

4 hours ago, Minotti said:

 It’s not hindsight to say that none of the neutral fans rates these attacking players like the English did! 

Saka's CA does seem a little high but surely he's one of the most promising/mature talents in world football.

You mention Rashford...he is simply a different player to Saka. Seems like a bit of an unnecessary comparison. 

• Saka is on the right and Rashford on the left. You can see Saka contributes exceptionally out of possession and even played as a wingback for England at the euros. 

4 hours ago, Minotti said:

Up until this years edition Anthony martial had 20 in dribbling and insane technical stats! WHERE/WHEN DID HE PLAY to warrant those stats?? I know he is French but my original post, while it was focused about English players it was also about how players in premier league also get overrated! 

For Martial, the answer is at Monaco. His CA is quite low in the current version of the game I believe. 

Edited July 16 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

11 hours ago, MWoolf said:

Looking at the full 2023/24 season stats for both Saka and Williams on fbref, Saka was very comfortably the better player.

Some of that is likely down to how Arsenal play vs Atletico Bilbao...but Saka does work more for the team out of possession than Williams. Rbref is a good basic framework but has it's limitations as well. 

I think Williams is an extremely dangerous, direct 1v1 player with great end product. Saka is more likely to cut inside, whereas Williams has a bit more pace (I think) and is capable of playing with both feet. Certainly in terms of end product, Saka has been far more prolific over the past few season. 

I think the hype around Williams is that any direct player with great speed + two feet has an incredibly high ceiling in world football. If he can add more end product to his game he has the potential to be almost unplayable. 

Edited July 16 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

For those interested here's a link to a statistical article by Opta on the Euros, best 11 based on the stats:

Source: https://theanalyst.com/2024/07/euro-2024-team-of-the-tournament-opta/

Edited July 16 by Cloud9

[kiwityke1983]

13 hours ago, scythian12 said:

The CL scoring charts disagree. The issue is not with Englishmen, especially not the ones playing abroad, it is with the English league.

He's a stat padder great for goals against smaller sides in the league and cups...almost never scores against big sides.

 I'll list his major trophies he's won...oh wait he hasn't got any didn't even win a league title with Bayern!

Absolutely needs the hates big matches trait imo massively over rated player whose 27 goals against sides like San Marino and pens mask the fact he's absolute bobbins when it really matters in big games.

[MWoolf]

1 hour ago, kiwityke1983 said:

He's a stat padder great for goals against smaller sides in the league and cups...almost never scores against big sides.

 I'll list his major trophies he's won...oh wait he hasn't got any didn't even win a league title with Bayern!

Absolutely needs the hates big matches trait imo massively over rated player whose 27 goals against sides like San Marino and pens mask the fact he's absolute bobbins when it really matters in big games.

Hardly. 

He got a hat trick against Dortmund in Der Klassiker this year, and had a NP-xG of 0.88 per 90' in the Bundesliga, along with 0.21 xA.

He may not be your favorite player, but those are world class stats.  In his whole career in Bundesliga, Lewandowski only had one season better than that.

Kane scored 3 non-penalty goals against Galatasaray and 2 against Lazio in the UCL, and also provided 4 assists in the UCL campaign.

In 2022, he was the sole goal in Tottenham's win over City. And it wasn't a penalty.

He certainly seems to struggle in finals, but he's neither a stat padder nor massively overrated.

[whatsupdoc]

Another reason the English players do well is because of the over-emphasis the ME can put on physical stats. When you have +2 over an opponent in a physical area (strength, jumping, accel, pace) it makes a huge impact. There's less chance than IRL for a Pepe or an defender who uses good positioning / antitipation / technique to compete.

[Cloud9]

32 minutes ago, MWoolf said:

Hardly. 

He got a hat trick against Dortmund in Der Klassiker this year, and had a NP-xG of 0.88 per 90' in the Bundesliga, along with 0.21 xA.

He may not be your favorite player, but those are world class stats.  In his whole career in Bundesliga, Lewandowski only had one season better than that.

Kane scored 3 non-penalty goals against Galatasaray and 2 against Lazio in the UCL, and also provided 4 assists in the UCL campaign.

In 2022, he was the sole goal in Tottenham's win over City. And it wasn't a penalty.

He certainly seems to struggle in finals, but he's neither a stat padder nor massively overrated.

The trouble with Kane is that he has become a luxury player, without the ability to play in a modern pressing system. Kane has never pressed particularly well (unlike a Benzema) and the problem has gotten worse with age. In the modern game, carrying a luxury striker damages the team. A solo 9 must trigger the press and lead the line. 

• It is a similar issue to Trent at right back. They are incredibly talented footballers but the Hollywood moment will only take you so far. The fundamentals of the game is what success is built on these days.

It is difficult to draw any conclusions from the Euros for Kane, as Southgate's tactics did him no favors (no width, no runners in behind, three 10's). That being said, his movement was poor and he frequently ambled deep into his own half when he was needed in the box. He was outmatched in long ball opportunities and was generally woeful.

England were markedly more dangerous whenever Watkins replaced him.

Edited July 16 by Cloud9

[kiwityke1983]

41 minutes ago, MWoolf said:

Hardly. 

He got a hat trick against Dortmund in Der Klassiker this year, and had a NP-xG of 0.88 per 90' in the Bundesliga, along with 0.21 xA.

He may not be your favorite player, but those are world class stats.  In his whole career in Bundesliga, Lewandowski only had one season better than that.

Kane scored 3 non-penalty goals against Galatasaray and 2 against Lazio in the UCL, and also provided 4 assists in the UCL campaign.

In 2022, he was the sole goal in Tottenham's win over City. And it wasn't a penalty.

He certainly seems to struggle in finals, but he's neither a stat padder nor massively overrated.

Show me his trophies...not his padded out stats.

Truly World class players perform when it matters and when it matters Kane has sub-standard matches hence he's 30 and won nothing.

I've seen him in 3 finals and in all 3 he was woeful 

[NineCloudNine]

The game-controlling technical and mental attributes of Rodri, Jorginho etc are not valued enough in the ME whereas the physical attributes of Rice & Saka are. I remain convinced that the problem isn’t English players (or players at English clubs) being over-rated, it’s that they are highly rated in the things that English football values. The ME comes from that same football culture so values the same things.

[NineCloudNine]

On 14/07/2024 at 22:42, scythian12 said:

Hmmm yes you can also have a look at the two wingers who would incidentally be both eligible for Ghana on both finalist teams, then marvel at their CA and PA values in the DB and contrast this with the input your eyes were exposed to the last three weeks.

I am sure that Williams will be getting a significant boost in the next FM. He has improved enormously in the last year.

The current database was created a year ago and tinkered with in January and as we have seen the research team seems light in Spain (and there are problems with a lot of the Bilbao squad, suggesting there isn’t a dedicated researcher).

Edited July 16 by NineCloudNine

[Costav]

7 hours ago, kiwityke1983 said:

Show me his trophies...not his padded out stats.

Truly World class players perform when it matters and when it matters Kane has sub-standard matches hence he's 30 and won nothing.

I've seen him in 3 finals and in all 3 he was woeful 

Trophies cannot express the goodness of a player. This was the very first year he played in a club able to win at highest levels.

Mbappe is widely recognize as one of the best players now-a-day, but he won only one relevant trophy (the world cup in 2018), as well as Pavard, Giroud and many other french players. However nobody would state that he won only one important trophy (compared to Carvajal, for example) so that Carvajal is better than Mbappe. 

We can discuss concerning his ability to stand the pressure in big matches, but judging a player by his trophies means poor knowledge of football.

Edited July 16 by Costav

[Costav]

7 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

The game-controlling technical and mental attributes of Rodri, Jorginho etc are not valued enough in the ME whereas the physical attributes of Rice & Saka are. I remain convinced that the problem isn’t English players (or players at English clubs) being over-rated, it’s that they are highly rated in the things that English football values. The ME comes from that same football culture so values the same things.

Game, set, and match.

In addition to this, the tactical part of the game is implemented only based on what the Premier league offers. The inverted-full back is a clear example. It's been at least 8/9 years that some Italian teams adopt it, however was include only now that the Man City uses it. Even the pressing system of the game is now "old" compared to what you can see around the world.  

Poor tactical knowledge is another part of the game that should be given more attention based on (at least) european-football knowledge, not only looking at premier league and championship league.

Edited July 16 by Costav

[MWoolf]

8 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

The trouble with Kane is that he has become a luxury player, without the ability to play in a modern pressing system. Kane has never pressed particularly well (unlike a Benzema) and the problem has gotten worse with age. In the modern game, carrying a luxury striker damages the team. A solo 9 must trigger the press and lead the line. 

• It is a similar issue to Trent at right back. They are incredibly talented footballers but the Hollywood moment will only take you so far. The fundamentals of the game is what success is built on these days.

It is difficult to draw any conclusions from the Euros for Kane, as Southgate's tactics did him no favors (no width, no runners in behind, three 10's). That being said, his movement was poor and he frequently ambled deep into his own half when he was needed in the box. He was outmatched in long ball opportunities and was generally woeful.

England were markedly more dangerous whenever Watkins replaced him.

I would say that's a little harsh.  He is reasonable defensively--although certainly not in the top third of forwards for defensive performance.  He can trigger the press effectively, is fairly tenacious one-on-one, and rarely gets skinned.  He tracks back well, and seems to (usually) choose his tackes intelligently.

In terms of leading the line, he is outstanding at creating space and fashioning chances for himself and others. He passes quite well in the final third. 

Kane is a big part of why why Sane's goal contributions per 90 went way up this year. Sane scored the same number of goals as last year, but played in 5 fewer games.

Definitely not a luxury player who just poaches.

The Euros were weird.  The whole England side looked uninspired on both sides of the ball, but especially when (failing at) pressing.  They looked like they needed a vacation rather than a tournament.

England pressed very effectively with Kane up top during qualifiers, so it's not that he or the rest of them are incapable of getting the job done. 

[Cloud9]

20 minutes ago, MWoolf said:

I would say that's a little harsh.  He is reasonable defensively--although certainly not in the top third of forwards for defensive performance.  He can trigger the press effectively, is fairly tenacious one-on-one, and rarely gets skinned.  He tracks back well, and seems to (usually) choose his tackes intelligently.

In terms of leading the line, he is outstanding at creating space and fashioning chances for himself and others. He passes quite well in the final third. 

Kane is a big part of why why Sane's goal contributions per 90 went way up this year. Sane scored the same number of goals as last year, but played in 5 fewer games.

Definitely not a luxury player who just poaches.

The Euros were weird.  The whole England side looked uninspired on both sides of the ball, but especially when (failing at) pressing.  They looked like they needed a vacation rather than a tournament.

England pressed very effectively with Kane up top during qualifiers, so it's not that he or the rest of them are incapable of getting the job done. 

Here's an article from the BBC detailing just how bad at pressing England are with Kane up top: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/c6ppyw9yj12o

Data from Opta again from the Euros, note that worst pressing team in the Premier League this year was Nottingham Forest who averaged 17.7 PPDA. England sit at 23.1, only above Albania and Romania. Qualifiers are just glorified friendlies for England, and not a good indicator of strength. You can carry a luxury player against Malta and North Macedonia. 

Kane's defensive actions via FBref:

He provides nothing out of possession unfortunately: Kane presents no long ball option (aerials won), no press, and no pressure on the back line with a run in behind. In a difficult match which requires the forward the press, Kane becomes an entirely luxury player that the team is forced to carry.

Edited July 16 by Cloud9

[NineCloudNine]

28 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

Here's an article from the BBC detailing just how bad at pressing England are with Kane up top: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/c6ppyw9yj12o

Data from Opta again from the Euros, note that worst pressing team in the Premier League this year was Nottingham Forest who averaged 17.7 PPDA. England sit at 23.1, only above Albania and Romania. Qualifiers are just glorified friendlies for England, and not a good indicator of strength. You can carry a luxury player against Malta and North Macedonia. 

Kane's defensive actions via FBref:

He provides nothing out of possession unfortunately: Kane presents no long ball option (aerials won), no press, and no pressure on the back line with a run in behind. In a difficult match which requires the forward the press, Kane becomes an entirely luxury player that the team is forced to carry.

I’m not sure if that’s telling us something about Kane as a player or England as a team. Southgate picked a striker who drops deep (in FM a DLF-S), a midfielder who pushes forward (in FM a AM-S or a B2B with ‘gets forward’) and a player on the left who cuts inside. Then plays a low block, short passing and no attacking FBs. If you wanted to set out to make Kane a passenger, that’s what you’d do. No space, no runners, three players in the one small area. Someone posting that tactic in the tactics forum here would see it torn to pieces - not least by you! 

[MWoolf]

24 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

Here's an article from the BBC detailing just how bad at pressing England are with Kane up top: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/c6ppyw9yj12o

Data from Opta again from the Euros, note that worst pressing team in the Premier League this year was Nottingham Forest who averaged 17.7 PPDA. England sit at 23.1, only above Albania and Romania. Qualifiers are just glorified friendlies for England, and not a good indicator of strength. You can carry a luxury player against Malta and North Macedonia. 

Kane's defensive actions via FBref:

He provides nothing out of possession unfortunately: Kane presents no long ball option (aerials won), no press, and no pressure on the back line with a run in behind. In a difficult match which requires the forward the press, Kane becomes an entirely luxury player that the team is forced to carry.

Let's look at a few other strong forwards for comparison, rather than isolating Kane.

Here's Vinicius Juníor:

 Here's Erling Haaland:

Here's Dusăn Vlahović:

Here's Artem Dobvyk:

The key think to note is these players all play on teams that have a LOT of the ball.

That causes their comparative percentages against the general population of forwards to look quite low.  We would need to possession-adjust all of them for the comparatives to be accurate.

In this company:

Kane 's Aerials Won are on the low end, but not catastrophically so.  

His interceptions are by far the best of the bunch.

And overall, he looks just fine in terms of defensive stats as a top goalscoring threat at a top team.

[Cloud9]

30 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

I’m not sure if that’s telling us something about Kane as a player or England as a team. Southgate picked a striker who drops deep (in FM a DLF-S), a midfielder who pushes forward (in FM a AM-S or a B2B with ‘gets forward’) and a player on the left who cuts inside. Then plays a low block, short passing and no attacking FBs. If you wanted to set out to make Kane a passenger, that’s what you’d do. No space, no runners, three players in the one small area. Someone posting that tactic in the tactics forum here would see it torn to pieces - not least by you! 

I agree with you  Southgate's setup was a shambles tactically and I am very disappointed w/ what he came with(a system that provided no structure for talented players to flourish). I would be quite critical of it on the tactical forums. I personally would have played Kane alongside Gordon on the left who would do some of that direct running in behind which suits Kane's passing game. 

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

Kane presents no long ball option (aerials won), no press, and no pressure on the back line with a run in behind. 

These three factors are big problems for me in the profile of the player, not just Southgate's tactic, and are compounded by the fact that he's getting on a bit now. Some of Kane coming deep is still on him at the Euros...especially when there are two 10's already operating behind him and no natural wide attackers (since we put Saka at wingback). He needed to be able to dictate to himself to stay higher than he usually would. 

Edited July 16 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

30 minutes ago, MWoolf said:

Let's look at a few other strong forwards for comparison, rather than isolating Kane.

Here's Vinicius Juníor:

 Here's Erling Haaland:

Here's Dusăn Vlahović:

Here's Artem Dobvyk:

The key think to note is these players all play on teams that have a LOT of the ball.

That causes their comparative percentages against the general population of forwards to look quite low.  We would need to possession-adjust all of them for the comparatives to be accurate.

In this company:

Kane 's Aerials Won are on the low end, but not catastrophically so.  

His interceptions are by far the best of the bunch.

And overall, he looks just fine in terms of defensive stats as a top goalscoring threat at a top team.

Yes but here you are running into a limitation of FBref here. Vini JR stays high because he offers a threat on turnovers due to his pace (a tactical decision). I imagine Mbappe has a similar FBref profile in that regards.

Haaland and Vlahovic are penalty area poachers who are similarly isolated but provide the threat of running in behind and stay high. Because Kane comes deep constantly he does not provide this threat out of possession (alongside the lack of a pressing, physical profile + long ball option).

• In this way he does not participate when you don't have the ball at all. The others do, but it's not represented in the numbers in the same way.
• I am not familiar with Dobyvk so I can't comment there. 

You can compare him to Morata (Spain's 9) a pressing, penalty area poacher who gives a lot of elements out of possesion:

• Stays high, focal point of the attack
• Provides Long ball option
• Leads the press
• Provides threat in behind

Morata is a perceived much lower quality player than Kane, but in a modern system he can do key elements that Kane just can't do. To the point of the article (English players being overrated) I think this an important area to highlight.

Again you can just watch the games. He was terrible. L'equipe gave him 3/10 for his Euro final appearance. 

Edited July 16 by Cloud9

[kiwityke1983]

1 hour ago, Costav said:

Trophies cannot express the goodness of a player. This was the very first year he played in a club able to win at highest levels.

Mbappe is widely recognize as one of the best players now-a-day, but he won only one relevant trophy (the world cup in 2018), as well as Pavard, Giroud and many other french players. However nobody would state that he won only one important trophy (compared to Carvajal, for example) so that Carvajal is better than Mbappe. 

We can discuss concerning his ability to stand the pressure in big matches, but judging a player by his trophies means poor knowledge of football.

He's an out and out goalscorer who wilts in big matches hence I say he isn't world class.

For me truly world class strikers go out and win those big games, Kane is a passenger in them hence he's never won any trophies (even though he's been at Spurs they could have won the Prem and Champs league in his time there)

I'll be honest I've never rated him particularly and as time has gone on I'm more convinced he needs the hates big matches trait.

Him going to Bayern and not winning the Bundesliga was actually hilarious.

[NineCloudNine]

9 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

He's an out and out goalscorer who wilts in big matches hence I say he isn't world class.

For me truly world class strikers go out and win those big games, Kane is a passenger in them hence he's never won any trophies (even though he's been at Spurs they could have won the Prem and Champs league in his time there)

I'll be honest I've never rated him particularly and as time has gone on I'm more convinced he needs the hates big matches trait.

Him going to Bayern and not winning the Bundesliga was actually hilarious.

I think you’re a little harsh on Kane here, but it is an astonishing fact that across two Euros finals he had one solitary touch in the box (the shot that Rodri got injured blocking). It’s very hard to understand that.

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, NineCloudNine said:

I think you’re a little harsh on Kane here, but it is an astonishing fact that across two Euros finals he had one solitary touch in the box (the shot that Rodri got injured blocking). It’s very hard to understand that.

Yes I agree, he still is a great player but one you have to build everything around to make it work. Can you play modern systems with him as a 9 who can't press? I think that's a genuine question worth asking at this point.

To bring things back to FM, my problem is that his clear weaknesses are not represented in game. His insanely high PA has just sort of papered over all the deficiencies, which we see frequently on FM English players.

To go over the key issues:

• On FM he provides a long ball option, this just isn't true in real life.
• On FM he's a pressing monster, again this is statistically not accurate of the player.
  • The physicals and ability to run are crazy here. 
• Given a top tier personality, this is really indicative of a player being English in the game. 

   

While a top player he is certainly inflated in FM terms, while strikers from other nations are continually undervalued. 

Edited July 16 by Cloud9

[MWoolf]

44 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

Yes but here you are running into a limitation of FBref here. Vini JR stays high because he offers a threat on turnovers due to his pace (a tactical decision). I imagine Mbappe has a similar FBref profile in that regards.

Haaland and Vlahovic are penalty area poachers who are similarly isolated but provide the threat of running in behind and stay high. Because Kane comes deep constantly he does not provide this threat out of possession (alongside the lack of a pressing, physical profile + long ball option).

• In this way he does not participate when you don't have the ball at all. The others do, but it's not represented in the numbers in the same way.
• I am not familiar with Dobyvk so I can't comment there. 

Again you can just watch the games. He was terrible. L'equipe gave him 3/10 for his Euro final appearance. 

You sound like you are basing your assessment of Kane's capabilities mainly on the tactical nightmare that Southgate threw on the field this month.

I'm not from England, so the team's collapse in the Euros may not be colouring by views in quite the same way.

In my estimation, as someone who has seen quite a number of Kane's regular season games over the years, the Euros are a bad source of data on him as a player 

Also, I'm confused.   Is your position that all of these strikers are luxury players because the tend to hang high instead of contributing defensively?

Or are you saying that providing a high counter-attack outlet during transition  transforms a player into not a luxury player?

Kane is a top scorer despite not staying high and just looking to get in on the end of plays.  And he's a good creator as well.

And I've seen plenty of regular-season games where Kane presses just fine, and not only against bottom-dwelling teams.

Perhaps we will need to agree to disagree

[Cloud9]

8 minutes ago, MWoolf said:

You sound like you are basing your assessment of Kane's capabilities mainly on the tactical nightmare that Southgate threw on the field this month.

I'm not from England, so the team's collapse in the Euros may not be colouring by views in quite the same way.

In my estimation, as someone who has seen quite a number of Kane's regular season games over the years, the Euros are a bad source of data on him as a player 

Also, I'm confused.   Is your position that all of these strikers are luxury players because the tend to hang high instead of contributing defensively?

Or are you saying that providing a high counter-attack outlet during transition  transforms a player into not a luxury player?

Kane is a top scorer despite not staying high and just looking to get in on the end of plays.  And he's a good creator as well.

And I've seen plenty of regular-season games where Kane presses just fine, and not only against bottom-dwelling teams.

Perhaps we will need to agree to disagree

That's okay! 

The point is simply that these other players provide you extreme physicality: which by their nature allows for pressure to be put back onto the opposition out of possession. They can trigger a press and constantly threaten a direct approach which is damaging to an opposition in possession. 

 W/Kane all the positive things he can do require the team to have the ball. When the team is w/out the ball, it is as if they are playing with one less man on the pitch (hence the luxury player term). For a modern pressing system, that's a disaster. 

Edited July 16 by Cloud9

[NineCloudNine]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

Yes I agree, he still is a great player but one you have to build everything around to make it work. Can you play modern systems with him as a 9 who can't press? I think that's a genuine question worth asking at this point.

To bring things back to FM, my problem is that his clear weaknesses are not represented in game. His insanely high PA has just sort of papered over all the deficiencies, which we see frequently on FM English players.

To go over the key issues:

• On FM he provides a long ball option, this just isn't true in real life.
• On FM he's a pressing monster, again this is statistically not accurate of the player.
  • The physicals and ability to run are crazy here. 
• Given a top tier personality, this is really indicative of a player being English in the game. 

   

While a top player he is certainly inflated in FM terms, while strikers from other nations are continually undervalued. 

Teamwork, Work Rate, Vision, Passing & Finishing are all too high here. I don’t think he’s 14 fast either. Nor is he two-footed. I must admit I have always been a little surprised at his >180 CA in FM.

Edited July 16 by NineCloudNine

[Cloud9]

40 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

Teamwork, Work Rate, Vision, Passing & Finishing are all too high here. I don’t think he’s 14 fast either. Nor is he two-footed. I must admit I have always been a little surprised at his >180 CA in FM.

I would like to see English players operating at the top leagues receive a -4 CA/PA debuff across the board for FM25. I think this would get you a much more realistic database, especially in comparison to how non-English players are rated. 

Spoiler for player CA/PAs shown:

Spoiler

 

 

To give a comparison to how other nations players are undervalued, here's Spain's top CA/PA:

Spoiler

These ratings are out of 100, not 200. So it would be subtracting 2 from these values for England (in game 4). Foden, Walker, and Stones, to me, seem to be the only England players given fairly accurate values in current ability and potential ability. Many of these England players are out of their international setup all together, not starting for their club, and still receive higher CA/PA than current Spain international starters (Dani Carvajal for example).

This + taking the time to accurately depict some of the personalities (especially important now w/the development changes I mentioned early) on non-English, and particularly non-EU, players would be a great step forwards in the series. 

I think the numbers speak for themselves here.

Edited July 16 by Cloud9

[MWoolf]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

That's okay! 

The point is simply that these other players provide you extreme physicality: which by their nature allows for pressure to be put back onto the opposition out of possession. They can trigger a press and constantly threaten a direct approach which is damaging to an opposition in possession. 

 W/Kane all the positive things he can do require the team to have the ball. When the team is w/out the ball, it is as if they are playing with one less man on the pitch (hence the luxury player term). For a modern pressing system, that's a disaster. 

Repeating again that you think he needs to be carried defensively doesn't make it more accurate.

Let me give you an easy-to-find example of excellent defensive play by Kane, so we're not just talking generalities:

Take a look at a highlight reel from Bayern's 1st leg UCL game against Arsenal this year.

Bayern's first goal happened because Kane put Gabriel under intense pressure as Arsenal was trying to recycle the ball, forcing a bad pass and a turnover.

[Minotti]

2 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

 

See this is what I’m talking about! 19 in visions? 18 in passing? These are stats of a historic number 9! And I assure you that outside of England nobody will consider harry kane to be a historical player that will be remembered for generations! 
 

the only thing missing for him to be the absolute best player of all time (according to fm) is for him to have at least 17 in pace and acceleration! Who the hell is Il fenomeno when you have the mighty Kane that can do EVERYTHING (according to fm)

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, MWoolf said:

Repeating again that you think he needs to be carried defensively doesn't make it more accurate.

Let me give you an easy-to-find example of excellent defensive play by Kane, so we're not just talking generalities:

Take a look at a highlight reel from Bayern's 1st leg UCL game against Arsenal this year.

Bayern's first goal happened because Kane put Gabriel under intense pressure as Arsenal was trying to recycle the ball, forcing a bad pass and a turnover.

This suggests a simple misunderstanding of how stats and data work. They are not generalities but reflect how a player actually plays. 

He is roughly in the bottom 30% of strikers for defensive actions, which is very low. If they never occurred these bars would be at 0. A modern pressing system requires a 9 to lead the press, which is about consistently and effectively executing these actions (see Morata's data that I linked above). Again the lack of physical profile on Kane (long ball and threat in behind) is not reflected in these numbers, and compounds the issue.

No one doubts his quality in a side that already has the ball, where he can pick a pass or stay in the box to finish an action...his stats suggest he is elite in both of these aspects of play among strikers. The data clearly demonstrates that the issue with Kane is out of possession, which is a significant stumbling block for modern sides in close contests.

At the Euros specfically, Kane was a passenger in possession as well. Dropping deep and failing to get involved at all with the rest of the team. 

• This is likely more of a reflection of Southgate's shortcomings in tactical setups...although the player must bear some responsibility as well.
• Here are the pass maps of England and Spain from the final (via the Athletic).

Edited July 16 by Cloud9

[NineCloudNine]

2 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I would like to see English players operating at the top leagues receive a -4 CA/PA debuff across the board for FM25. I think this would get you a much more realistic database, especially in comparison to how non-English players are rated. 

Spoiler for player CA/PAs shown:

  Hide contents

 

 

To give a comparison to how other nations players are undervalued, here's Spain's top CA/PA:

  Hide contents

These ratings are out of 100, not 200. So it would be subtracting 2 from these values for England (in game 4). Foden, Walker, and Stones, to me, seem to be the only England players given fairly accurate values in current ability and potential ability. Many of these England players are out of their international setup all together, not starting for their club, and still receive higher CA/PA than current Spain international starters (Dani Carvajal for example).

This + taking the time to accurately depict some of the personalities (especially important now w/the development changes I mentioned early) on non-English, and particularly non-EU, players would be a great step forwards in the series. 

I think the numbers speak for themselves here.

It would be interesting to see where the difference lies, ie what attributes are different. I play almost entirely in Spain in FM and I think the difference between English and Spanish players shown here is largely explained by physical stats. Even Kane, if his physicals and two-footedness alone were toned down, would be more believable.

While I am sure that researchers work diligently and to guidelines, the greater emphasis on physical attributes in the English game seems to be reflected in the stats of English players, which (given the high physical attribute CA multipliers) means higher CA.

If we think that the physical attributes of English players are an accurate reflection of the physicality of the English game, then a toning down of technical or mental attributes would be the answer. Or, it might be that Spanish researchers are giving insufficient weight to the physical attributes of Spanish players, in which case a boost there might be in order.

[Cloud9]

7 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

It would be interesting to see where the difference lies, ie what attributes are different. I play almost entirely in Spain in FM and I think the difference between English and Spanish players shown here is largely explained by physical stats. Even Kane, if his physicals and two-footedness alone were toned down, would be more believable.

While I am sure that researchers work diligently and to guidelines, the greater emphasis on physical attributes in the English game seems to be reflected in the stats of English players, which (given the high physical attribute CA multipliers) means higher CA.

If we think that the physical attributes of English players are an accurate reflection of the physicality of the English game, then a toning down of technical or mental attributes would be the answer. Or, it might be that Spanish researchers are giving insufficient weight to the physical attributes of Spanish players, in which case a boost there might be in order.

I would say that's true. One of Atletico Madrid's most physical players & enforcer, Rodrigo De Paul, is given lower physicals than Harry Kane in almost every attribute. These are the kind of choices we are seeing from researchers for non English players, here are the changes to a international starter made year to year:

Here is he in FM24:

Here he is in fm23:

The changes we are seeing in the database year to year are not giving more accurate reflections unfortunately. Kane is setup to be more of a team player on FM in both mentals and physicals (in terms of running). Kane is given higher strength, stamina, natural fitness, teamwork, work rate, concentrate and very similar levels of aggro/bravery/tackling. All these attributes are strong for defensive situations.

I can't imagine that the Spanish league researchers would give their players such poor attributes if it was solely down to their discretion. For what it's worth I think Spanish football and English football are played very similarly nowadays. 

Edited July 17 by Cloud9

[kiwityke1983]

4 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

It would be interesting to see where the difference lies, ie what attributes are different. I play almost entirely in Spain in FM and I think the difference between English and Spanish players shown here is largely explained by physical stats. Even Kane, if his physicals and two-footedness alone were toned down, would be more believable.

While I am sure that researchers work diligently and to guidelines, the greater emphasis on physical attributes in the English game seems to be reflected in the stats of English players, which (given the high physical attribute CA multipliers) means higher CA.

If we think that the physical attributes of English players are an accurate reflection of the physicality of the English game, then a toning down of technical or mental attributes would be the answer. Or, it might be that Spanish researchers are giving insufficient weight to the physical attributes of Spanish players, in which case a boost there might be in order.

 

54 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

I would say that's true. Atletico Madrid's most physical player & enforcer, Rodrigo De Paul, is given lower physicals than Harry Kane in almost every attribute. 

13 aggression 13 bravery 13 stamina 12 strength? Okay. 

I can't imagine that the Spanish league researchers would give their players such poor attributes if it was solely down to their discretion. For what it's worth I think Spanish football and English football are played very similarly nowadays. 

I was just about to say most Spanish players who come to the Prem do well and don't struggle with the physicality of it.

 

6 hours ago, Minotti said:

See this is what I’m talking about! 19 in visions? 18 in passing? These are stats of a historic number 9! And I assure you that outside of England nobody will consider harry kane to be a historical player that will be remembered for generations! 
 

the only thing missing for him to be the absolute best player of all time (according to fm) is for him to have at least 17 in pace and acceleration! Who the hell is Il fenomeno when you have the mighty Kane that can do EVERYTHING (according to fm)

I assure you a fair few Englishmen think he's nowhere near this good too.

[Cloud9]

@XaW Is there an effective/professional way to communicate potential concerns over inconsistencies in the database to SI that could see actual change? I think I have posted a fairly comprehensive amount of data/statistically backed concerns in this topic. 

Thanks for your time

Edited July 17 by Cloud9

[NineCloudNine]

9 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

I can't imagine that the Spanish league researchers would give their players such poor attributes if it was solely down to their discretion. 

I don’t agree about this point. I think the problem here is one of different footballing cultures.

English researchers are rating players highly in attributes that English football values - physical stats.

Spanish researchers are rating players highly in attributes that Spanish football values - technical stats.

They are all operating within CA band guidelines, but are assembling that CA differently.

It’s also interesting that a lot of Spanish players have very even stats - look at Saul or Oyarzabal for example (or indeed De Paul). This is much less common for English players. I think this is another example of what different football cultures value - English football likes specialists, Spanish football likes all-round players.

I suspect we would see similar biases in other countries. A lot of German players, for example, have very high workrate.

It’s a fascinating question whether these differences are an accurate reflection of the type of player profiles countries tend to produce, or are an artefact of what researchers value. Since both those emerge from the footballing culture of a country, the answer is likely both of course, but with a multiplier effect.

Edited July 17 by NineCloudNine

[Costav]

1 hour ago, NineCloudNine said:

I suspect we would see similar biases in other countries. A lot of German players, for example, have very high workrate.

It’s a fascinating question whether these differences are an accurate reflection of the type of player profiles countries tend to produce, or are an artefact of what researchers value. Since both those emerge from the footballing culture of a country, the answer is likely both of course, but with a multiplier effect.

Could it be a specific decision in order to artificially create differences of football style between different countries?
At the end, in FM, the football played in Germany is the same  played in Italy, in England, in Spain, etc...

Edited July 17 by Costav

[Minotti]

1 hour ago, NineCloudNine said:

I don’t agree about this point. I think the problem here is one of different footballing cultures.

English researchers are rating players highly in attributes that English football values - physical stats.

Spanish researchers are rating players highly in attributes that Spanish football values - technical stats.

They are all operating within CA band guidelines, but are assembling that CA differently.

It’s also interesting that a lot of Spanish players have very even stats - look at Saul or Oyarzabal for example (or indeed De Paul). This is much less common for English players. I think this is another example of what different football cultures value - English football likes specialists, Spanish football likes all-round players.

I suspect we would see similar biases in other countries. A lot of German players, for example, have very high workrate.

It’s a fascinating question whether these differences are an accurate reflection of the type of player profiles countries tend to produce, or are an artefact of what researchers value. Since both those emerge from the footballing culture of a country, the answer is likely both of course, but with a multiplier effect.

I don’t agree with this at all! It’s the technical abilities of the English that are blown out of proportions! If what you said were the case I wouldn’t complain as I do believe that the PL is more physically demanding so the need to be stronger, faster and more enduring. But the problem is that the technical abilities are too much. Look at Declan rice, Kane, etc etc! 

[NineCloudNine]

12 minutes ago, Costav said:

Could it be a specific decision in order to artificially create differences of football style between different countries?
At the end, in FM, the football played in Germany is the same  played in Italy, in England, in Spain, etc...

That would be a very interesting thing to attempt. I would imagine that SI think this should naturally arise from researchers operating within guidelines and reporting what they see in their countries. If we were talking about professional, trained observers that would work. But the researcher team are volunteers and fans and some countries/leagues/clubs are more thoroughly covered and have more experienced researchers than others so some disparity and variable data quality is inevitable.

[NineCloudNine]

18 minutes ago, Minotti said:

I don’t agree with this at all! It’s the technical abilities of the English that are blown out of proportions! If what you said were the case I wouldn’t complain as I do believe that the PL is more physically demanding so the need to be stronger, faster and more enduring. But the problem is that the technical abilities are too much. Look at Declan rice, Kane, etc etc! 

Part of this might also be what is considered to be technically strong in a country. To Spanish eyes Declan Rice might not look technically strong at all. To English eyes he’s very good. It’s very hard to arrive at an objective measure here - SI have set themselves a fiendishly difficult task.

I definitely think that a really deep analysis of player attributes by country would be very interesting. I do agree that Spanish league players look underpowered. I don’t know if this is because their researchers are being too harsh or if English researchers are being too generous. To take Rice vs De Paul, the disparity in their attributes is extreme and I think this is at least as much about De Paul being under-rated as it is about Rice being overly strong. Personally I would like to see De Paul’s physical attributes and aggression/bravery boosted and Rice’s technicals reduced.

[Minotti]

1 hour ago, NineCloudNine said:

Part of this might also be what is considered to be technically strong in a country. To Spanish eyes Declan Rice might not look technically strong at all. To English eyes he’s very good. It’s very hard to arrive at an objective measure here - SI have set themselves a fiendishly difficult task.

I definitely think that a really deep analysis of player attributes by country would be very interesting. I do agree that Spanish league players look underpowered. I don’t know if this is because their researchers are being too harsh or if English researchers are being too generous. To take Rice vs De Paul, the disparity in their attributes is extreme and I think this is at least as much about De Paul being under-rated as it is about Rice being overly strong. Personally I would like to see De Paul’s physical attributes and aggression/bravery boosted and Rice’s technicals reduced.

That’s a good point and I haven’t really thought of it in that way. I agree about de Paul btw! 

Edited July 17 by Minotti

[Cloud9]

4 hours ago, NineCloudNine said:

To Spanish eyes Declan Rice might not look technically strong at all. To English eyes he’s very good.

He's not very technically proficient, certainly not in tight spaces and in controlling a match.

We've seen that for club and country...and is certainly a fact that Arsenal appreciate. Arsenal changed their formation after realizing this...Jorginho is the player who dictates the game, whereas Rice is utilized to carry the ball forward/in defensive actions. He frequently stands behind opposition players as to not receive the ball and very rarely passes forward.

• In comparison look at how Rodri and Fabian have pass maps (see my post above) that link up with all the players around them. 

It is reflected in the stats, it is not just a matter of perception or standards. Here is a pass map of Arsenal playing last year, the green arrows indicate a high quantity of passes. 

r

As long as we have player ratings based primarily on perception, we will continue to have a poor quality of ratings for CA/PA.

• I mention him standing behind players...you can see that none of the back 4 are passing to him with any frequency. Instead everything is going through Gabriel and Jorginho. 

You will find it unsurprising that Gabriel is given a poor personality and significantly lower passing ability (short and long) than Declan Rice. Rice sits at 15, passing, 15 technique, 14 vision, 14 first touch. This remains, despite Rice not being involved in build up play or progressive passes for club or country. The problem spills over into mentals as well...w/composure being an important attribute on ball players.. Rice has 17 to Gabriel's 12.

.

Edited July 17 by Cloud9

[NineCloudNine]

34 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

He's not very technically proficient, certainly not in tight spaces and in controlling a match.

We've seen that for club and country...and is certainly a fact that Arsenal appreciate. Arsenal changed their formation after realizing this...Jorginho is the holding midfielder in the pairing who does this half of the game...whereas Rice is utilized to carry the ball forward and is operating more as an SV or BBM. He frequently stands behind opposition players as to not receive the ball and very rarely passes forward.

• In comparison look at how Rodri and Fabian have pass maps (see my post above) that link up with all the players around them. 

It is reflected in the stats, it is not just a matter of perception or standards.

I don’t dispute this. But I very much doubt that researchers are going to pass maps and data websites to appraise players. I mean, I consider myself a massive FM nerd and *I’ve* never looked at the sites you linked above. Researchers are all volunteers following general guidance and making assessments based on their own eyes and what they hear. This means they are subject to ingrained biases, perceptions and cultural footballing influences, plus are undoubtably over-stretched and doing it in their spare time. Many will be covering multiple teams and relying on secondhand info.

It is entirely conceivable - I’d say inevitable - that the database reflects this both at a macro level and in the case of high profile examples. 

A further complication is that not all attributes have equal CA multipliers, so different attribute profiles can have radically different CAs even if their sheets look similar. So this really needs a proper dive into the database to see differences in attribute profiles by country. This would be a fascinating exercise. As all the data is available in the editor, I assume it’s possible even for someone outside SI, but it requires more data skills than I have.

[Cloud9]

30 minutes ago, NineCloudNine said:

I don’t dispute this. But I very much doubt that researchers are going to pass maps and data websites to appraise players. I mean, I consider myself a massive FM nerd and *I’ve* never looked at the sites you linked above. Researchers are all volunteers following general guidance and making assessments based on their own eyes and what they hear. This means they are subject to ingrained biases, perceptions and cultural footballing influences, plus are undoubtably over-stretched and doing it in their spare time. Many will be covering multiple teams and relying on secondhand info.

It is entirely conceivable - I’d say inevitable - that the database reflects this both at a macro level and in the case of high profile examples. 

A further complication is that not all attributes have equal CA multipliers, so different attribute profiles can have radically different CAs even if their sheets look similar. So this really needs a proper dive into the database to see differences in attribute profiles by country. This would be a fascinating exercise. As all the data is available in the editor, I assume it’s possible even for someone outside SI, but it requires more data skills than I have.

Regardless of mitigating factors, the outcome is the same:

• English players receive higher attributes that reflect weak performances in areas of their game than non English players who excel in those areas. 
  • I have highlighted this with two separate high profile individuals (out of possession influence from Kane and on the ball ability from Declan Rice).

It would be a good step forward if we could bring this to SI's attention:

• That the researchers (if they are indeed the problem) are creating a hugely unbalanced and unrepresentative view of the game (Englands 15, 160CA+ players to Spains 4 for example) rather than discussing the reasons of where their incompetence/bias stems. 

You only need one person doing a final check of the game before it goes out to view that imbalance (of comparative CA/PA's between countries) and say hey, 15 to 4, we're doing a very poor job here. You don't need a deep dive to bring basic competitive balance between nations. You simply need rules that apply across nations on how CA/PA is calculated, instead of special rules for special countries. 

Edited July 17 by Cloud9

[XaW]

14 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

@XaW Is there an effective/professional way to communicate potential concerns over inconsistencies in the database to SI that could see actual change? I think I have posted a fairly comprehensive amount of data/statistically backed concerns in this topic. 

Thanks for your time

I'd love to give a more detailed suggestion than "the bug tracker". But a well described example, showing stats (real life vs game) with as much detail as possible. Preferably with a save you can point to specifics would likely be the best cause of action.

The more info provided, the better. And remember, no matter if you get a detailed answer or not, all and any bug reports go into the SI bug database.

[Cloud9]

9 hours ago, XaW said:

I'd love to give a more detailed suggestion than "the bug tracker". But a well described example, showing stats (real life vs game) with as much detail as possible. Preferably with a save you can point to specifics would likely be the best cause of action.

The more info provided, the better. And remember, no matter if you get a detailed answer or not, all and any bug reports go into the SI bug database.

Thank you! I will check it out.