For the friends of Catenaccio

[El Payaso]

 

My original idea with Italian Serie A side Torino was to play high-tempo counter attacking football and tight defense which seemed suitable for the defensive philosophy and the players. 

But after the first season and lot of tweaking I realized that bringing back a traditional Catenaccio would probably going to be more likely to be successful. I simply wasn't able to make the counter attacks happen regularly. 

What is Catenaccio? 

Quote

Catenaccio (Italian pronunciation: [kateˈnattʃo]) or The Chain is a tactical system in football with a strong emphasis on defence. In Italian, catenaccio means "door-bolt", which implies a highly organised and effective backline defence focused on nullifying opponents' attacks and preventing goal-scoring opportunities.

I have always been a big fan of conceding less than one goal per game and preferably holding the best defensive record in the league while managing a mid-table club. I think Torino is perfect for this and that is also the main reason why I chose them as my main save on FM 2024.

What I also want to do is actually achieving a good defensive record through good defending instead of pressing high, dominating games and thereby not leaving anything for my defenders to do.

That is why I have also chosen to create a low block system where the difference between success and failure often comes through small things and micro managing during matches. I never feel comfortable leaving the comprehensive highlights when playing with this kind of system. 

I also rarely use any opposition instructions to keep system actually low block instead of applying maximum closing down through specific instructions. I only apply these when I can pick up some specific problems appearing. 

There has been a lot of talk about top-heavg counter-pressing styles being the most successful and easiest to set up. This is probably through but the difference in me is that I am not looking for ways to win and overachieve but instead to be able to play realistic long-term saves where I might eventually win something but on the other hand it doesn't matter if I don't. 

Does anyone else enjoy playing traditional defensive football with stepping back? Feel free to participate. 

[Cloud9]

Love the graphics you've put together in there per usual, I have a soft spot for the old Italian styles myself  Getting the aggressive rotation between the defenders could prove challenging. I think a classical counter is likely easier to pull off!

I would consider dropping the AMC back to the DM strata, I think he's likely to get bypassed in transition as is. I've liked a hard working SS in that role though...but it tends to be a bit more specialized of an approach. 

This is an old tifo video on the approach which might be a nice reference point:

@ceefax the cat was experimenting with this style of play so I have tagged them in as well. 

Edited July 16 by Cloud9

[coach vahid]

It's just theory but for me in this style of play you will have pay attention to the set pieces more than usual. The forwards need to be hard working and i will prefer using pressing forward on the front.

Good luck. 🙂

[El Payaso]

12 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Love the graphics you've put together in there per usual, I have a soft spot for the old Italian styles myself  Getting the aggressive rotation between the defenders could prove challenging. I think a classical counter is likely easier to pull off!

I would consider dropping the AMC back to the DM strata, I think he's likely to get bypassed in transition as is. I've liked a hard working SS in that role though...but it tends to be a bit more specialized of an approach. 

This is an old tifo video on the approach which might be a nice reference point:

@ceefax the cat was experimenting with this style of play so I have tagged them in as well. 

A double segundo volante along with an anchor man would be an interesting one to try out. They would probably be quite active going forward and then on the other hand would offer plenty for the defense.

Have to think about this as a triple DM is probably not one of the default formations and I tend to avoid anything else just not to get an unfair advantage compared to the AI. 

The one little change I have done to this system is switching the roles of the LCB and RCB around. As Raoul Bellanova is our most attacking wing-back, Perr Schuurs who is also quite capable in-possession, is better suited to be positioned into this role. 

I have fiddled around a lot with the double pivot. It's been surprisingly difficult to keep the defensive minded DM as defensive and holding as I would like it to be. Even a DM(D) tends to drift too much forward in slow buildups. Combining this with a SV(S) makes the double pivot too adventurous to my liking. This is why I am now playing around with the DM(S) with PI to get forward more often. 

The attacking midfielder on support has actually been my biggest success so far as Nikola Vlasic is playing really well compared to any attacking midfielders in the league. I have given him the PIs to roam and get into channels which make him quite effective goalscorer too. In season one he scored 10 in Serie A but is likely to break that tally in season 2.

[El Payaso]

4 minutes ago, coach vahid said:

It's just theory but for me in this style of play you will have pay attention to the set pieces more than usual. The forwards need to be hard working and i will prefer using pressing forward on the front.

Good luck. 🙂

I actually tried put double PF in season one and I liked it quite a lot as they won the ball back quite often close to the halfway line. Then on the other hand I wanted to have a clear focal point up front in the advanced forward role. 

The classic DLF & AF combination worked like a charm in season one at times but I'm currently having a difficult time with them. Demba Seck seems to be a really good super sub but then on the other hand Toni Sanabria and Pietro Pellegri are bit lacking at the moment. 

The double PF is definitely be something that I will use occasionally, for example against Inter Milan who now play with 4-2-4.

[El Payaso]

Anyone else using this kind of tactical approach on FM 2024?

[Single Pivot]

I'm currently working on a replication of Greece's tactics in Euro 2004.

[El Payaso]

1 hour ago, Single Pivot said:

I'm currently working on a replication of Greece's tactics in Euro 2004.

Good old times of football. Sounds interesting. Hope to see your attempt here. 

[Single Pivot]

It's early days...but the signs are good!

[Single Pivot]

Yeah it's going quite nicely, so far.

As you can see, the opposition. Has more possession in every game. Lazio had 69% and we stopped them from doing anything with it. On the flip side, we were clinical.

Once I have the time, I will update the thread with the tactic information.

Edited July 18 by Single Pivot

[Single Pivot]

 

Overview

This tactic is inspired by Otto Rehagel's legendary 4-3-3 formation that led Greece to victory at Euro 2004. It is built around a solid defensive foundation, disciplined man-marking, and quick counter-attacks, with a strong emphasis on exploiting set pieces.

Formation and Mentality

• Formation: 4-3-3
• Mentality: Balanced
• Defensive Shape: Mid Block

Defensive Structure

The team sits in a mid-block, allowing the opposition defenders and deep midfielders some space while tightly marking the forwards and attacking midfielders. Key aspects include:

• Right-Sided Centre Back: Acts as a free defender, sweeping up behind the markers (Dellas role).
• Defensive Midfielder: Marks the opposition's attacking midfielder if present.
• Two Number 8s: Mark zonally, maintaining tight marking within their zones.

Midfield Configuration

The midfield trio operates narrowly, providing compactness and discipline:

• Defensive Midfielder: Stays deep to cover and mark the opposition's attacking threats.
• Two Central Midfielders (Number 8s): Operate with a blend of zonal and tight marking, maintaining solidity in the middle.

Attacking Strategy

The front three are pivotal in both defence and attack:

• Left Winger (Karagounis role): A technical dribbler who can drop deep to form a midfield four, aiding in ball retention and buildup play.
• Right Winger (Charisteas role): Acts as a wide target man, providing an outlet for counter-attacks.
• Central Forward: Another target man, positioned centrally to receive long balls and hold up play.

Fullbacks and Support

• Fullbacks: Join the attack when it is sustained, providing width and crossing opportunities.
• Right Central Midfielder (Zagorakis role): An all-action midfielder who joins attacks, contributing both offensively and defensively.

Adaptation for Two Striker Formations

When facing teams with two strikers, the tactic adapts as follows:

• Right Back: Becomes an inverted fullback, marking the second striker (Seitaridis role).
• Right Central Midfielder: Picks up the opposition's wide threat on the left.
• Left Back or Left Winger: Picks up the wide threat on the opposition's right.

Performance and Testing

While still a work in progress and in the testing phase, this tactic has shown promising results. So far, I am unbeaten with AC Milan after 12 league matches, and the gameplay closely mirrors Greece's trophy-winning performance in 2004.

[El Payaso]

8 hours ago, Single Pivot said:

 

Overview

This tactic is inspired by Otto Rehagel's legendary 4-3-3 formation that led Greece to victory at Euro 2004. It is built around a solid defensive foundation, disciplined man-marking, and quick counter-attacks, with a strong emphasis on exploiting set pieces.

Formation and Mentality

• Formation: 4-3-3
• Mentality: Balanced
• Defensive Shape: Mid Block

Defensive Structure

The team sits in a mid-block, allowing the opposition defenders and deep midfielders some space while tightly marking the forwards and attacking midfielders. Key aspects include:

• Right-Sided Centre Back: Acts as a free defender, sweeping up behind the markers (Dellas role).
• Defensive Midfielder: Marks the opposition's attacking midfielder if present.
• Two Number 8s: Mark zonally, maintaining tight marking within their zones.

Midfield Configuration

The midfield trio operates narrowly, providing compactness and discipline:

• Defensive Midfielder: Stays deep to cover and mark the opposition's attacking threats.
• Two Central Midfielders (Number 8s): Operate with a blend of zonal and tight marking, maintaining solidity in the middle.

Attacking Strategy

The front three are pivotal in both defence and attack:

• Left Winger (Karagounis role): A technical dribbler who can drop deep to form a midfield four, aiding in ball retention and buildup play.
• Right Winger (Charisteas role): Acts as a wide target man, providing an outlet for counter-attacks.
• Central Forward: Another target man, positioned centrally to receive long balls and hold up play.

Fullbacks and Support

• Fullbacks: Join the attack when it is sustained, providing width and crossing opportunities.
• Right Central Midfielder (Zagorakis role): An all-action midfielder who joins attacks, contributing both offensively and defensively.

Adaptation for Two Striker Formations

When facing teams with two strikers, the tactic adapts as follows:

• Right Back: Becomes an inverted fullback, marking the second striker (Seitaridis role).
• Right Central Midfielder: Picks up the opposition's wide threat on the left.
• Left Back or Left Winger: Picks up the wide threat on the opposition's right.

Performance and Testing

While still a work in progress and in the testing phase, this tactic has shown promising results. So far, I am unbeaten with AC Milan after 12 league matches, and the gameplay closely mirrors Greece's trophy-winning performance in 2004.

AC Milan is probably the best team to try something like this out. 

Love the simplicity of the tactic and even though you have both full-backs on attack, they are probably still going to be more defensive than all the wing-back roles in the game. 

How are the scoring and conceding stats? Would think that with that system you would get close to 0,5 conceded per game. 

I did some studying yesterday and based on that I am going to make some changes to my Torino systems which will also be included in the next chapter of my Torino career update. 

[Single Pivot]

In the league I’m still unbeaten with around 2.5 goals per game and conceding just over 0.5.

Got torn apart by PSG twice. They made a mockery of the game plan. The Anchor Man and Inside Forward are prone to very poor ratings at times. I feel like it still needs some work to perfect it. I obviously have the advantage of testing with a good side too.

Edited July 19 by Single Pivot

[De Nile]

I remember this from FM21; of course the game is different now. This might interest those who may not know the development of catenaccio, this thread just goes through the system and provides an example team. Just added because catenaccio can be tough to make.

[El Payaso]

8 hours ago, De Nile said:

I remember this from FM21; of course the game is different now. This might interest those who may not know the development of catenaccio, this thread just goes through the system and provides an example team. Just added because catenaccio can be tough to make.

Interesting read like always from @crusadertsar. Has many similar aspects as the new version(s) of my tactic. 

Been reading a lot about this topic as I am pretty much struggling at the moment with my approach. The stats look alright at the moment but the problem seems to be our choice of goalkeepers and the fact that we keep making mistakes that lead into chances that are easier to convert than miss. 

[caco4003]

En 15/7/2024 a las 15:43, El Payaso dijo:

 

My original idea with Italian Serie A side Torino was to play high-tempo counter attacking football and tight defense which seemed suitable for the defensive philosophy and the players. 

But after the first season and lot of tweaking I realized that bringing back a traditional Catenaccio would probably going to be more likely to be successful. I simply wasn't able to make the counter attacks happen regularly. 

What is Catenaccio? 

I have always been a big fan of conceding less than one goal per game and preferably holding the best defensive record in the league while managing a mid-table club. I think Torino is perfect for this and that is also the main reason why I chose them as my main save on FM 2024.

What I also want to do is actually achieving a good defensive record through good defending instead of pressing high, dominating games and thereby not leaving anything for my defenders to do.

That is why I have also chosen to create a low block system where the difference between success and failure often comes through small things and micro managing during matches. I never feel comfortable leaving the comprehensive highlights when playing with this kind of system. 

I also rarely use any opposition instructions to keep system actually low block instead of applying maximum closing down through specific instructions. I only apply these when I can pick up some specific problems appearing. 

There has been a lot of talk about top-heavg counter-pressing styles being the most successful and easiest to set up. This is probably through but the difference in me is that I am not looking for ways to win and overachieve but instead to be able to play realistic long-term saves where I might eventually win something but on the other hand it doesn't matter if I don't. 

Does anyone else enjoy playing traditional defensive football with stepping back? Feel free to participate. 

hi, wouldnt it make more sense to have more direct passes aswell in the TI since you are trying to exploit the space the opossition leave when they commit too many players in attack? Also i think having early crosses would help a lot since you have 2 forwards up front

Edited July 23 by caco4003

[El Payaso]

4 hours ago, caco4003 said:

hi, wouldnt it make more sense to have more direct passes aswell in the TI since you are trying to exploit the space the opossition leave when they commit too many players in attack? Also i think having early crosses would help a lot since you have 2 forwards up front

In my opinion no. You need to remembar that even though direct counters are one of the main aims, we are not going to be having that approach for 90 minutes. Most of the time the team can be playing short passes, especially against oppositions that are happy to play 0-0 against us. 

Early crosses could make sense but Bellanova getting to the byline in quick breaks is one of the main things in the tactic. 

[Mutumba]

On 19/07/2024 at 00:22, Single Pivot said:

 

Overview

This tactic is inspired by Otto Rehagel's legendary 4-3-3 formation that led Greece to victory at Euro 2004. It is built around a solid defensive foundation, disciplined man-marking, and quick counter-attacks, with a strong emphasis on exploiting set pieces.

Formation and Mentality

• Formation: 4-3-3
• Mentality: Balanced
• Defensive Shape: Mid Block

Defensive Structure

The team sits in a mid-block, allowing the opposition defenders and deep midfielders some space while tightly marking the forwards and attacking midfielders. Key aspects include:

• Right-Sided Centre Back: Acts as a free defender, sweeping up behind the markers (Dellas role).
• Defensive Midfielder: Marks the opposition's attacking midfielder if present.
• Two Number 8s: Mark zonally, maintaining tight marking within their zones.

Midfield Configuration

The midfield trio operates narrowly, providing compactness and discipline:

• Defensive Midfielder: Stays deep to cover and mark the opposition's attacking threats.
• Two Central Midfielders (Number 8s): Operate with a blend of zonal and tight marking, maintaining solidity in the middle.

Attacking Strategy

The front three are pivotal in both defence and attack:

• Left Winger (Karagounis role): A technical dribbler who can drop deep to form a midfield four, aiding in ball retention and buildup play.
• Right Winger (Charisteas role): Acts as a wide target man, providing an outlet for counter-attacks.
• Central Forward: Another target man, positioned centrally to receive long balls and hold up play.

Fullbacks and Support

• Fullbacks: Join the attack when it is sustained, providing width and crossing opportunities.
• Right Central Midfielder (Zagorakis role): An all-action midfielder who joins attacks, contributing both offensively and defensively.

Adaptation for Two Striker Formations

When facing teams with two strikers, the tactic adapts as follows:

• Right Back: Becomes an inverted fullback, marking the second striker (Seitaridis role).
• Right Central Midfielder: Picks up the opposition's wide threat on the left.
• Left Back or Left Winger: Picks up the wide threat on the opposition's right.

Performance and Testing

While still a work in progress and in the testing phase, this tactic has shown promising results. So far, I am unbeaten with AC Milan after 12 league matches, and the gameplay closely mirrors Greece's trophy-winning performance in 2004.

Whats the thinking behind using Leoao as a WT? He hasnt got any real targetman attributes

[Single Pivot]

He isn’t ideal for the role, although is performing ok there.

The tactic is a replication of the Greece 2004 European Championship winning team. In that team Charisteas played as a wide target man.

I’m using Leao there, simply because he’s my tallest winger and I want him in the team.

[Tibalg]

Charisteas was not a winger at all, he was a pure Target man or at least a Pressing forward, as far as I remember 🤔

[Single Pivot]

Yep, he was by trade. But in that tournament, and quite often for Greece, he played on the right hand side.

[ceefax the cat]

This seems relevant here... 

Sadly I've shelved FM for the time being, exasperated at the impossibility of playing ultra-defensive, route one football (having lovingly assembled a squad that's perfect for it). So there'll be no updates on this until FM25 comes out.

 

Edited July 31 by ceefax the cat

[crusadertsar]

27 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

This seems relevant here... 

Sadly I've shelved FM for the time being, exasperated at the impossibility of playing ultra-defensive, route one football (having lovingly assembled a squad that's perfect for it). So there'll be no updates on this until FM25 comes out.

 

And yet you are posting this and claiming that defensive approaches don't work in a thread where OP shows clearly that such approaches are very viable?? 

Not to mention numerous tactics that people posted on my Defense-First thread.

Mind you, my own tactics drifted somewhat into more aggressive defending styles lately. But that's mainly because I would like to win Champions League in the twilight of FM24 and competing against the likes of Man City and Real Madrid. Yet many of the more defensive tactics discussed in that thread are still more than viable in FM24. But of course you cannot win Champions League by playing ultra-defensive Route One football! You could never do that in real life so why should it be possible in the football simulation? 

You need to know when to use defensive approach or even route one approach. It won't work in every situation. Sometimes it just doesn't make any sense. Just as it would not make any sense to play in Catanaccio style if you were Barcelona for example. I think the game models this very well actually.

Edited July 31 by crusadertsar

[ceefax the cat]

I said that ultra defensive, route one football doesn't work, and it doesn't. The OP is not attempting to play route one and I'd wager his tactic doesn't look anything like it in the ME. It also looks like he's using quite a lot of pressing, which I'm trying to avoid in favour of standing off + strict man-marking of the forwards.

Now, go and look at the threads on route one / hoofball, then come back, delete that wretched little emoji of yours, and apologise. Goon.

 

[crusadertsar]

You could of course try to play Route one defensive tactic when you are a top elite team, but why do that when your players are technical enough to attempt more sophisticated football which would allow you to better control possession? In this game the whole point is to build up your team to be able to compete with the "big boys" and unfortunately you sort of have to become as good as them, or even better, to compete with them realistically, much less win anything consistently.

Edited July 31 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

2 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

I said that ultra defensive, route one football doesn't work, and it doesn't. The OP is not attempting to play route one and I'd wager his tactic doesn't look anything like it in the ME. It also looks like he's using quite a lot of pressing, which I'm trying to avoid in favour of standing off + strict man-marking of the forwards.

Now, go and look at the threads on route one / hoofball, then come back, delete that wretched little emoji of yours, and apologise. Goon.

 

Still don't understand what your point is. Why should Route one work better in the game? How well does it work in real football? Should it work better in the game which is meant to be a realistic simulation of the real sport?

Edited July 31 by crusadertsar

[El Payaso]

At least with Torino the defending is a bit on and off even though in general I could claim that it is solid in terms of statistics. Even though there have been high-conceding games, the amount of chances for the opposition is generally low which gives me the impression that the style is working at least decently well. 

I could also easily upload highlights from the Juventud and AC Milan games and show that there really weren't many chances for them and that the highlights also included some good defensive examples. 

The biggest gripe have been set pieces in general. The amount of goals is in a realistic level but the chaos factory that they often create take a bit of the immersion away from the good defensive display. 

What I have been playing around recently has been an attempt to squeeze the space away between the defensive line and the midfield by raiding the line and activating a bit of more aggressive pressing. This often forces the opposition to seek for long balls over the top through defenders which is obviously a rust strategy against better sides. 

I would probably di better if I would use things like oppositio instructions and shouts more than I now am. And I would definitely do much better if I didn't give game time players who are Serie B or even C level. 

I'd say that a low block with passive pressing is possible but it takes more effort on watching the games and reacting to things as well as actually having players suitable for the style. 

[crusadertsar]

7 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

Now, go and look at the threads on route one / hoofball, then come back, delete that wretched little emoji of yours, and apologise. Goon.

 

Says a guy who links a "game must be broken because my tactics don't work" complaint thread with only 2 rep points and 5 replies. 

Edited July 31 by crusadertsar

[ceefax the cat]

It should be possible at least to attempt it, and other styles of play described in the tactics creator. Currently it is not possible.

[ceefax the cat]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

Says a guy who links a "game must be broken because my tactics don't work" complaint thread with only 2 rep points and 5 replies. 

The tactics I described in the thread were working though? Not that that has any relevance to your being totally wrong about route one football. 

Go and read the hoofball threads, then realise how wrong you are, and sod off.

[crusadertsar]

3 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

The tactics I described in the thread were working though? Not that that has any relevance to your being totally wrong about route one football. 

Go and read the hoofball threads, then realise how wrong you are, and sod off.

And a lovely day to ya too. Go wait for FM25, or maybe FM26

 

Edited July 31 by crusadertsar

[El Payaso]

My style of play at Torino is often described as route one by the media when our opponents are the one with the most possession. Obviously as I am not using any specific passing length or tempo, my possession can vary between 30-70%. 

What has been donent favorite aspect in the style has been the occasional good old target-man approach where the deep-lying forward either flicks a long ball on or drops it to one of my midfielders. Obviously this doesn't happen even every game but on the other hand I'm not giving any specific instruction for the team to play so as I don't have a suitable forward for this style as I use Pellegri as the main scorer and Sanabria is only 180cm tall. 

I haven't tested any other than mixed passing style on FM 2024 as I want to keep all the options open for the team but it would be an interesting thing to try out for sure. And I can spoil you that much that it might even happen soon in my career update. 

[ceefax the cat]

Good luck with it all - I'd save yourself the trouble of trying ultra-direct, target man-based football though. It's simply not on the menu, no matter how extreme your instructions. Many have tried!

[El Payaso]

44 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

I said that ultra defensive, route one football doesn't work, and it doesn't. The OP is not attempting to play route one and I'd wager his tactic doesn't look anything like it in the ME. It also looks like he's using quite a lot of pressing, which I'm trying to avoid in favour of standing off + strict man-marking of the forwards.

Now, go and look at the threads on route one / hoofball, then come back, delete that wretched little emoji of yours, and apologise. Goon.

 

Umm, are you talking about me? I have been using low-block with cautious or defensive mentality, lately even combined with regroup instruction all career long. This takes the intensity of the style of play close to the middle of the bar which is probably the lowest I have seen anyone posting their tactics using. 

Obviously I need to press somewhere in the pitch and this is aimed to happen inside our own half and between the defensive line and midfield where I don't want to allow time and space. 

When defending a lead, I even make things more passive by moving into more defensive roles and lowering the pressing even further. 

Saying that my team is using quite a lot of pressing is simply wrong. 

[ceefax the cat]

very well!

[XaW]

4 hours ago, ceefax the cat said:

I said that ultra defensive, route one football doesn't work, and it doesn't. The OP is not attempting to play route one and I'd wager his tactic doesn't look anything like it in the ME. It also looks like he's using quite a lot of pressing, which I'm trying to avoid in favour of standing off + strict man-marking of the forwards.

Now, go and look at the threads on route one / hoofball, then come back, delete that wretched little emoji of yours, and apologise. Goon.

 

These types of comments are getting out of line. Please behave when talking to others, or we'll have to take action. This is not a suggestion.

[ceefax the cat]

I thought the post I was replying to was pretty rude tbh

[XaW]

I've removed some more posts that are just bickering and arguing. For everyone please keep your tones a bit lighten than what was earlier in this thread, otherwise I'll start giving out formal reactions to anyone who can't behave.

Please keep the topic on track, and for the love of everything, keep personal attacks away. This is the final warning for this whole thread and anyone posting.

[El Payaso]

Okay, back to the topic. 

The first season was most of the time exactly what I was hoping for. But in the second one, I have had huge trouble defending the wider areas and thereby the massive amount of set pieces. 

The current system has two supporting wing-backs, an anchor man and Segundo Volante as a double pivot, two defending wide centre-backs, a ball-playing defender on cover duty, an attacking midfielder on support, and a deep-lying forward and advanced forward up front:

I have quite a clean slate for team instructions. I use a fairly narrow attacking width, regroup and counter on transfusion, and low block, higher defensive line and more often pressing instruction when out of possession. I have also played around with the pressing trap where I try to funnel the play to the middle where we have the most defenders. This instruction doesn't seem to have any effect on my team though. 

I'm not on my laptop at the moment but the behavior of my wing-backs is really weird at times as they seem to totally ignore their player and almost step outside the pitch while the opposition wide players are tugged inside. They only start chasing these players after they have received the ball and that is more often than not too late. 

So in short: having big problems in season two. 

I have also been using the 5-3-2 WB & DM formation more often lately as I like the defensive shape more in that one. This is also more suitable for some of the key players like Ivan Ilic and Samuele Ricci who aren't necessarily ideal picks for DM and AM roles. 

In this system, I have otherwise the same roles but the two midfielders are supporting CMs with some personalized player instructions to suit their style of play. This distribution of roles also means that all three midfielders should participate heavily in the defensive work while the MCs also should give their part to the transition and attacking phase, while the anchor doesn't venture forward too much. 

https://www.viewfromthetouchline.com/2022/09/02/the-art-of-counter-attacking-football/

I have read Cleon's guide for counter-attacking football multiple times and tried and find out what I am missing with my style. 

I would not like to get rid of the low block and defensive style of play but currently running out of ideas. 

Luckily winning is not the main thing for me which allows me to also accept weaker spells in form. 

What I am tempted to try would be applying the positive mentality which would make all my team instructions a bit more 'active'.

Edited August 2 by El Payaso

[Cloud9]

8 hours ago, El Payaso said:

Okay, back to the topic. 

The first season was most of the time exactly what I was hoping for. But in the second one, I have had huge trouble defending the wider areas and thereby the massive amount of set pieces. 

The current system has two supporting wing-backs, an anchor man and Segundo Volante as a double pivot, two defending wide centre-backs, a ball-playing defender on cover duty, an attacking midfielder on support, and a deep-lying forward and advanced forward up front:

I have quite a clean slate for team instructions. I use a fairly narrow attacking width, regroup and counter on transfusion, and low block, higher defensive line and more often pressing instruction when out of possession. I have also played around with the pressing trap where I try to funnel the play to the middle where we have the most defenders. This instruction doesn't seem to have any effect on my team though. 

I'm not on my laptop at the moment but the behavior of my wing-backs is really weird at times as they seem to totally ignore their player and almost step outside the pitch while the opposition wide players are tugged inside. They only start chasing these players after they have received the ball and that is more often than not too late. 

So in short: having big problems in season two. 

I have also been using the 5-3-2 WB & DM formation more often lately as I like the defensive shape more in that one. This is also more suitable for some of the key players like Ivan Ilic and Samuele Ricci who aren't necessarily ideal picks for DM and AM roles. 

In this system, I have otherwise the same roles but the two midfielders are supporting CMs with some personalized player instructions to suit their style of play. This distribution of roles also means that all three midfielders should participate heavily in the defensive work while the MCs also should give their part to the transition and attacking phase, while the anchor doesn't venture forward too much. 

https://www.viewfromthetouchline.com/2022/09/02/the-art-of-counter-attacking-football/

I have read Cleon's guide for counter-attacking football multiple times and tried and find out what I am missing with my style. 

I would not like to get rid of the low block and defensive style of play but currently running out of ideas. 

Luckily winning is not the main thing for me which allows me to also accept weaker spells in form. 

What I am tempted to try would be applying the positive mentality which would make all my team instructions a bit more 'active'.

I am not usually a fan of Stopper/Cover roles in a defensive operation. You can utilize them in highly specialized approaches but unless you are doing a lot of game to game management + in game tweaks you are just pulling apart your defensive structure for the opposition.

Aside from that...the tactic looks like it provides very little pushback onto the opposition, which is a common pitfall of defensive approaches. There are very few roles capable of progressing the ball via passing or dribbling...or moving into open space themselves. The second tactic especially falls into these traps. Even with more aggressive PIs + traits I would want some dynamic roles in there. 

• In a low block sheer pace becomes very important, which is one reason I've typically favored a mid block in my own defensive tinkering

If you want to trap inside, you can ask the wingbacks to Mark Tighter and use a TI combo of Stop Crosses / Trap Inside. Again you will need to use these somewhat situationally or you can cause problems for your team. I have linked how to use traps + cross instructions in the Quickfire section. 

• Putting a wingback or two on attack in the first system will go a long way. Your system is currently very demanding/dependent on them in wide spaces. As I mention above I would consider a SS for the AMC role...particularly if you're going to trap inside. The role has hard working tendencies coded under the hood and can contribute to the central trap you're attempting to pull off (while also getting involved in a more direct approach). You do not need to feel pigeonholed into playing a goalscorer in the profile either. 

The more specialized your defensive approach (and more catenaccio like it is) the more in game tinkering will be required for each matchup!

Edited August 2 by Cloud9

[El Payaso]

7 minutes ago, Cloud9 said:

I am not usually a fan of Stopper/Cover roles in a defensive operation. You can utilize them in highly specialized approaches but unless you are doing a lot of game to game management + in game tweaks you are just pulling apart your defensive structure for the opposition.

Aside from that...the tactic looks like it provides very little pushback onto the opposition, which is a common pitfall of defensive approaches. There are very few roles capable of progressing the ball via passing or dribbling...or moving into open space themselves. The second tactic especially falls into these traps. Even with more aggressive PIs + traits I would want some dynamic roles in there. 

If you want to trap inside, you can ask the wingbacks to mark tighter and use a TI combo of Stop Crosses / Trap Inside. Again you will need to use these somewhat situationally or you can cause problems for your team. I have linked how to use traps + cross instructions in the Quickfire section. 

I see wide area defending a bigger issue than the centre-backs even though I have been tweaking a lot with these roles too based on what I am seeing. 

The tactic actually performs way better going forward and I don't see attacking play being a problem. Obviously I am open to suggestion. The idea for the midfield triangle is that all of them would participate in the defensive phase and track back. 

I don't see any problems with how many players we have under the ball and what kind of defensive shape the style creates, especially when the defensive line is pushed up a bit more. The distance between our deep-lying forward and centre-backs is small and between them I have also three quite well-rounded midfielders. So the aim is to squeeze space away and win the ball back in middle by taking the space away. The numbers and shape are good, but winning the ball back isn't. On the other hand we are the best team making interceptions in the league. 

On the other hand we are the best intercepting team in the league. 

The trap inside & stop crosses hasn't done anything noticeable for me. Or maybe the only one is that the opposition are able to buy more crosses through tackles and blocks and this leads to the main problem we currently have: giving away set pieces until the opposition scores. 

What I could try is moving Bellanova back to a complete forward and maybe play around with the midfield roles, for example so that we would have DM(D), MEZ(S) and BBM(S) to add some variety. 

Another thing could be getting rid of either low block or regroup and thereby stop having two passive instructions. 

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, El Payaso said:

I see wide area defending a bigger issue than the centre-backs even though I have been tweaking a lot with these roles too based on what I am seeing. 

The tactic actually performs way better going forward and I don't see attacking play being a problem. Obviously I am open to suggestion. The idea for the midfield triangle is that all of them would participate in the defensive phase and track back. 

I don't see any problems with how many players we have under the ball and what kind of defensive shape the style creates, especially when the defensive line is pushed up a bit more. The distance between our deep-lying forward and centre-backs is small and between them I have also three quite well-rounded midfielders. So the aim is to squeeze space away and win the ball back in middle by taking the space away. The numbers and shape are good, but winning the ball back isn't. On the other hand we are the best team making interceptions in the league. 

On the other hand we are the best intercepting team in the league. 

The trap inside & stop crosses hasn't done anything noticeable for me. Or maybe the only one is that the opposition are able to buy more crosses through tackles and blocks and this leads to the main problem we currently have: giving away set pieces until the opposition scores. 

What I could try is moving Bellanova back to a complete forward and maybe play around with the midfield roles, for example so that we would have DM(D), MEZ(S) and BBM(S) to add some variety. 

Another thing could be getting rid of either low block or regroup and thereby stop having two passive instructions. 

Traps are super important on FM24 and they are extremely impactful. 

• I would spend some time figuring out how they work in a user friendly, traditional counter attack approach (which will have many less pitfalls for you than a Catenaccio) before returning to perfect the old Italian style

A 4-4-2 might also be a helpful formation switch, especially if you are struggling to shut down wide spaces. Another user-friendly change for what is a fairly tinker heavy experience for most counter attacks on FM24. 4-4-2's are great in that they can provide versatile trapping options as well, they're one of my go to formations for FM24!

Edited August 2 by Cloud9

[El Payaso]

1 hour ago, Cloud9 said:

Traps are super important on FM24 and they are extremely impactful. 

• I would spend some time figuring out how they work in a user friendly, traditional counter attack approach (which will have many less pitfalls for you than a Catenaccio) before returning to perfect the old Italian style

A 4-4-2 might also be a helpful formation switch, especially if you are struggling to shut down wide spaces. Another user-friendly change for what is a fairly tinker heavy experience for most counter attacks on FM24. 4-4-2's are great in that they can provide versatile trapping options as well, they're one of my go to formations for FM24!

I know that I would do better with another formation but I am not ready to make the switch. 

I have seen the AI Simeone for example doing well with his 5-3-2 so I know it is possible to make it defensively solid. 

The only real things I have to fix are winning the ball back more efficiently and shutting down the flanks and I hope those are doable. 

[Cloud9]

34 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

I know that I would do better with another formation but I am not ready to make the switch. 

I have seen the AI Simeone for example doing well with his 5-3-2 so I know it is possible to make it defensively solid. 

The only real things I have to fix are winning the ball back more efficiently and shutting down the flanks and I hope those are doable. 

Yes totally doable, learning to utilize traps will fix both those issues!

Try throwing a ball winning midfielder in the midfield as well. I would prefer a Bwm(s) to either your Anchor or your Cm(s) based on what you mention you’re looking to achieve. 

A lot of your issues sound like they stem from accepting too much pressure , check out the positioning of your players out of possession and try to make small tweaks. That push back threat I mention is not primarily when your team already have the ball. Adding a few forward runners will help, at the moment it’s really just the AF providing a forward movement / threat to attack space. 

Lastly, if you’re unhappy with your wingbacks you can utilize them in the WM strata as customizable WM roles or as DWs.

 

Edited August 2 by Cloud9

[Los_Culés]

@Cloud9Emulating old Atlético (when they were favouring 4-4-2) I think they actually combined both Trap Inside and Outside but I do not think it is possible in FM. Is it? I think that Trap Inside is more favourable higher up the pitch (funneling opposition to your DMs/CMs that press aggressively in their zone) and Trap Outside closer to your goal (try to block crosses via intelligent positioning (Filipe Luis) and let Godín win the aerial duels).

Edited August 2 by Los_Culés

[El Payaso]

2 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Yes totally doable, learning to utilize traps will fix both those issues!

Try throwing a ball winning midfielder in the midfield as well. I would prefer a Bwm(s) to either your Anchor or your Cm(s) based on what you mention you’re looking to achieve. 

A lot of your issues sound like they stem from accepting too much pressure , check out the positioning of your players out of possession and try to make small tweaks. That push back threat I mention is not primarily when your team already have the ball. Adding a few forward runners will help, at the moment it’s really just the AF providing a forward movement / threat to attack space. 

Lastly, if you’re unhappy with your wingbacks you can utilize them in the WM strata as customizable WM roles or as DWs.

 

That's more like it.

Have to start watching the matches in full instead of comprehensive and really to and make a change. 

The results have been good but that doesn't really give a satisfaction when the team doesn't play in a way I am looking for.

[Cloud9]

20 hours ago, El Payaso said:

That's more like it.

Have to start watching the matches in full instead of comprehensive and really to and make a change. 

The results have been good but that doesn't really give a satisfaction when the team doesn't play in a way I am looking for.

The traps (+ using PIs and OIs) won't require you to compromise a tactical vision! Those are right out of the traditional catenaccio playbook.

22 hours ago, Los_Culés said:

@Cloud9Emulating old Atlético (when they were favouring 4-4-2) I think they actually combined both Trap Inside and Outside but I do not think it is possible in FM. Is it? I think that Trap Inside is more favourable higher up the pitch (funneling opposition to your DMs/CMs that press aggressively in their zone) and Trap Outside closer to your goal (try to block crosses via intelligent positioning (Filipe Luis) and let Godín win the aerial duels).

You can't select them both at the same time in the TI menu  However you could engineer specific traps with PIs + OIs as well, which would be something to consider. 

I find it a little tricky to get an exact recreation of realistic pressing styles as the touchline (w/ the striker drifting wide + WM pressing) doesn't effectively count as another player as you'd see IRL and teams are not effectively punished for giving up central control. The box trap between the two strikers and midfield pairing (another Atletico staple) won't get that coordinated collapsing motion that you'd see IRL either....although in the right situation the central players will be more than able to pull of a central press in FM terms. 

To see realistic pressing we would need the addition of:

           1. An increased importance on central midfielders to control the game.

           2. A rework to the pressing system (perhaps like the set piece creator?) where coaches could personalize the press. 

In FM terms I am usually deploying traps to simply funnel the opposition where I want them to go on a match to match basis instead of the IRL intricate, coordinated presses. This is either into a high congestion area of the pitch or where I believe I can nullify their attacking threat (For example: if weak in air in the box, funneling wide). However, for FM24 these reactive traps are a must in nullifying the opposition as positional play + midfield 4's give a lot of tools to break you down!

In their current state, in my opinion at least, they are just a simplification of the highly sophisticated pressing systems we see deployed in modern football..

Edited August 3 by Cloud9

[Cloud9]

22 hours ago, Los_Culés said:

@Cloud9Emulating old Atlético (when they were favouring 4-4-2) I think they actually combined both Trap Inside and Outside but I do not think it is possible in FM. Is it? I think that Trap Inside is more favourable higher up the pitch (funneling opposition to your DMs/CMs that press aggressively in their zone) and Trap Outside closer to your goal (try to block crosses via intelligent positioning (Filipe Luis) and let Godín win the aerial duels).

On your last question: 

• I believe Cross Engagement is a final third instruction(but your own defensive third) and Trap Inside or Outside applies before that. So Trap Outside would not necessarily apply closer to your goal. I agree having Godin is a great idea if you're looking to trap outside! 
• In Fm terms I would defend as far away from my own goal as the opposition allows by taking into account the speed of their frontline when judging a high vs standard defensive line. On line of engagement, you can happily alternate between a mid and low block in an old school Atletico recreation. 

Edited August 3 by Cloud9

[De Nile]

Recently, the teams which I think had good attack based of strong (most times extreme) defensive football using a back 3 has been Mou's Roma and Allegri's Juve of course these teams won't really be looked on fondly since they achieve little but some principles of defending deep in the times of counter pressing, high line football could help with what you what to achieve, with that said you should understand the flaws in their system. 

[El Payaso]

Haven't had time to progress with this at all lately. 

I luckily found Deep Lying Playmaker's YouTube channel and I think he is gives good insights about the pressing traps with visual examples. Again gave me a good idea where my problems currently lay and how I might be able to tackle them. 

This style with formations that have their clear weaknesses is definitely interesting as you can't take anything for granted and actually have to follow games closely even against those sides that you are expected to beat. That's the type of gameplay I enjoy the most on FM.