Should we get new data updates for FM24?

[paddypower]

4 hours ago, santy001 said:

Imagine the CA/PA system had actually been removed this year or changed so substantially that there's no direct correlation between the 0-200 scale and what comes next

 

Has that happened? If not, why are we talking hypotheticals?

[santy001]

1 hour ago, paddypower said:

Has that happened? If not, why are we talking hypotheticals?

Because I have an NDA I'm not prepared to break rather simply. 

[paddypower]

24 minutes ago, santy001 said:

Because I have an NDA I'm not prepared to break rather simply. 

The other researchers in this thread seem to think you are over stating things. 

A competent engineering team should be able to achieve this.

[santy001]

Other researchers are entitled to their opinions, some like @Wolf_pd mentioned they see things that count as changes too though so it's all swings and roundabouts on that front.

Maybe SI can do it with relative ease. I'm not saying they can't, but it seems a little more complex given the changes I've seen from year to year. 

[Vänsterback]

I have spent a year researching thousands of player's zodiac signs. You don't just extract a database without that and expect it to work.

[Wolf_pd]

8 minutes ago, Vänsterback said:

I have spent a year researching thousands of player's zodiac signs. You don't just extract a database without that and expect it to work.

It's the Geminis that always give me most problems researching them.

[autohoratio]

8 minutes ago, Vänsterback said:

I have spent a year researching thousands of player's zodiac signs. You don't just extract a database without that and expect it to work.

That gives me the mental image of implementing horoscopes (the type you'd see on Facebook) into the game to influence AI player behaviour 😆 "This week, players with Pisces star signs will feel like rebelling against their manager." "Libra players will be emotionally fulfilled and increase their morale, and uplift the morale of their social group." "Capricorn agents, you are feeling extra bold this week. Engaging in contract renewals with your players' clubs could be fruitful at this time."

[ds_61_1]

6 minutes ago, autohoratio said:

That gives me the mental image of implementing horoscopes (the type you'd see on Facebook) into the game to influence AI player behaviour 😆 "This week, players with Pisces star signs will feel like rebelling against their manager." "Libra players will be emotionally fulfilled and increase their morale, and uplift the morale of their social group." "Capricorn agents, you are feeling extra bold this week. Engaging in contract renewals with your players' clubs could be fruitful at this time."

I thought that's how it always worked. It was just a hidden attribute. Because otherwise I can't explain why my team go from loving me one mintue to almost mutiny the next.

[jcafcwbb]

On 10/10/2024 at 19:34, santy001 said:

As a researcher one of the barriers is the constant evolution of the database we contribute and how things are modified for the game moving forward. Things change within the database to support new features, or work differently to encompass a differing approach to how that data is utilised by the game. While there has been the backwards compatibility to bring older data forward it'd likely be a much bigger issue to send newer data back. 

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the mechanics to do this already programmed into the game.

When we start the game we have the option to have real world transfers, so that they happen on the same day as they did in the real world. Couple that with the ability to holiday to the start of the second season we should be able to have the transfers in place. You can even have the ability to holiday to the start of the second season and have the transfers in place where you holiday up to. Whether that would include stat boosts like we have when we start the game with the January window I do not know,

We know the game can handle you starting it with the January transfers in place. We should be able to holiday to the start of the second season with the transfers in place at least if we cannot have the same results.

[santy001]

4 minutes ago, jcafcwbb said:

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the mechanics to do this already programmed into the game.

Start dates, transfer dates wouldn't be the issue. I'll use a historical specific example, that isn't even the most complex (but doesn't risk me saying anything I shouldn't). 

I don't recall which year exactly (I've been doing this since around 2012 now), but from one edition of FM to the next the ME changes meant pace/acceleration were reworked. Their weightings for all positions were changed and this meant all player CA's would under the new weighting system be very different. 

So we had a lot of guidance and support to help us understand the new objectives when it came to that area of research, the line of thinking behind it and so collectively we researchers made the change. If everything had to revert on that single point you've now got all the players in the game with inappropriate attributes for the old ME it's going back to. Different research teams for different nations come "online" so to speak at different points and even within the same research teams our data gets submitted at different times because of real life. 

There's so much nuance in how players are rated you couldn't just apply some New Pace 12 = Old Pace 14 or vice versa. Because then the other attributes with their weightings are out too. All the data needs to be reviewed again. 

[jcafcwbb]

2 hours ago, santy001 said:

Start dates, transfer dates wouldn't be the issue. I'll use a historical specific example, that isn't even the most complex (but doesn't risk me saying anything I shouldn't). 

I don't recall which year exactly (I've been doing this since around 2012 now), but from one edition of FM to the next the ME changes meant pace/acceleration were reworked. Their weightings for all positions were changed and this meant all player CA's would under the new weighting system be very different. 

So we had a lot of guidance and support to help us understand the new objectives when it came to that area of research, the line of thinking behind it and so collectively we researchers made the change. If everything had to revert on that single point you've now got all the players in the game with inappropriate attributes for the old ME it's going back to. Different research teams for different nations come "online" so to speak at different points and even within the same research teams our data gets submitted at different times because of real life. 

There's so much nuance in how players are rated you couldn't just apply some New Pace 12 = Old Pace 14 or vice versa. Because then the other attributes with their weightings are out too. All the data needs to be reviewed again. 

So what you are saying is that it is possible to have the game starting with this season (24/25) with the transfers applied. As we will still be using the same match engine we can use the attributes used for the 2024 January transfer window?

That could be the first step. With maybe a stat update with the 2025 January transfer update as usual if there isn't enough resource to do it before then.

Is it impossible to have the roster update using the attributes from 2024 transfer window?

I think it is important to find a way to make it happen than trying to find reasons why it cannot be done. Sure we have to accept things that cannot be done but we have to try a find a way to reward (not to sure if that is the right word) the people who have bought the game for years and have supported SI.

 

Edited Saturday at 11:24 by jcafcwbb
clarification

[scythian12]

To put it very simply: new features also bring chnages to the db (not only in fields disappearing and new ones popping up, but also in how the existing data is interpreted), which means it would be rather complicated to port the FM25 db back to 24. (But potentially not impossible)

[jcafcwbb]

6 minutes ago, scythian12 said:

To put it very simply: new features also bring chnages to the db (not only in fields disappearing and new ones popping up, but also in how the existing data is interpreted), which means it would be rather complicated to port the FM25 db back to 24. (But potentially not impossible)

But we are not talking about using the FM25 database. We are talking about using the FM24 database with the transfer changes up the last transfer update in the FM24 match engine. If it is possible to do this for the January 2024 transfer window it is possible to do it for the August 2024 transfer window. Forget all this about using the FM25 database that, as has been explained, is a non-starter. 

I take it that the current FM24 database has not been deleted and can be used.

[The RawK]

The best feasible option for that to happen would be, if you buy in advance fm25 you are entitled, in the meantime, to download the new fm24 update, updated squads/results/database for the beginning of the 24/25 season, a good bargain in which both parts win, other than that, nothing will come out, just wondering... I'm pretty sure the FM developers are so lazy no one even thought about it...

Edited Sunday at 11:01 by The RawK

[forameuss]

8 minutes ago, The RawK said:

The best feasible option for that to happen would be, if you buy in advance fm25 you are entitled, in the meantime, to download the new fm24 update, updated squads/results/database for the beginning of the 24/25 season, a good bargain in which both parts win, other than that, nothing will come out, just wondering... I'm pretty sure the FM developers are so lazy no one even thought about it...

Yeah, I'm sure that'll be the reason they don't use this idea...

[The RawK]

11 minutos atrás, forameuss disse:

Yeah, I'm sure that'll be the reason they don't use this idea...

The funny part is that would take them one week to deliver that. They already have all that data compiled and available...no engine changes just squads/new players/ they could even make the 23/24 season be "past" as usual aso aso...

Edited Sunday at 11:21 by The RawK

[Viking]

I don't think it would be a bad idea to add an updated database to FM24, put some guys to iron out some of the remaining bugs, and release it as FM25 - maybe to a reduced price - in November. Then they can release the Unity FM as FM26 next November. The customers would get their yearly fix, the Unity crew would get a whole year to fix the game, and SI would get some money.

 At least I just want to play the game with a 2024 start date and a updated database anyway. And let's be honest, most of the "new features" to FM over the last years has not been very exciting anyway,

[Brentford Alan]

On 12/10/2024 at 12:38, jcafcwbb said:

But we are not talking about using the FM25 database. We are talking about using the FM24 database with the transfer changes up the last transfer update in the FM24 match engine. If it is possible to do this for the January 2024 transfer window it is possible to do it for the August 2024 transfer window. Forget all this about using the FM25 database that, as has been explained, is a non-starter. 

I take it that the current FM24 database has not been deleted and can be used.

 

It's one continuously updated database. So I would have thought we'd need to be rolling back to the last time the database was backed up/saved with purely FM24 relevant data on it which I would guess was around April 2024 before additional fields/data were added to or removed from the database for FM25's needs. Since May on the Brentford data alone I've made 3200+ amendments, and I know the EPL head researcher and at least one other researcher have also made further amendments. Multiply that by the hundreds of researchers working on the data across hundreds of clubs, players, staff and all the other stuff that goes in to the database to create the game world, almost all on a voluntary basis with full time jobs and families to consider, and it's a massive massive ask for us to do the whole lot again in a reasonable time to get a data update available for FM24 (which I guess people would want to see this side of the New Year) that's also been fully tested for realism and balance.

Edited Sunday at 13:54 by Brentford Alan

[Dave C]

I’ll add my voice as a researcher (and in two spells that goes back twenty years) to back what Santy001 has been saying - there is no simple fix here because the way the data is used by the engine changes the way the data is created.

Nor can you just separate transfers and contracts out and use old data with it, because it’s all done in the same database.

I’m sure there are ways a programmer could create code that would reverse engineer this stuff to make it work, but the question becomes is that the best use of their time right now? Personally I don’t have that level of entitlement and would rather all hands were on FM25 rather than creating more delays for the sake of another FM24 update.

Edited Sunday at 16:39 by Dave C

[TheBigBoss]

Least they can do, proper scummy to do this so soon after pre orders, you can't tell me they didn't know

[Roy Race 9]

Are SI going to provide a data update for FM24, a patch but a more detailed one with the right teams in the correct divisons for 24/25 season not just player transfers and loans

Many users pre ordered FM25 following the ill fated announcement the game would be released in November, surely SI can provide something like an update to carry things over as a sign of good faith until a new version is eventually released.

My other question is due to the long delay in the release of FM25 do SI really expect customers to pay for one version in March and buy another one  a few months later or are there plans to move the date of future releases or provide substantial discounts [because by the time FM25 is fully patched each version usually gets 3 major patches..... FM26 will be out]

cheers

Edited Sunday at 18:23 by Roy Race 9

[DP]

If the engine has changed too substantially, the best thing to do is carry on with FM25 and then do more of minor/database update for FM26 in Oct next year. Perhaps then adding new features and polish as part of later patches.  
 

Let’s be honest, considering patch 3 for 25 could be out in July, they won’t exactly have lots of dev time for 26, releasing a few months later. 

Edited Sunday at 18:16 by DP

[McClane29]

SI must give customers something in terms of a data update for FM24 after the disaster of the last few weeks.

Loyal customers/fans deserve to be treated better.

[brad71]

it would be nice and considering the lack of information over fm25 if si for once would tell us if they are looking into the possibility of  a data update for fm24 or not so at least we  know one way or the other. which in turn would go some way to improve the reputation within the fm community.

[soswa84]

Release an update with promotions/relegation's for 2024/25 season & the angry talk will go away.  This FM 25 has been a complete disaster if they want to keep fans happy they need to do this for us.

Edited Monday at 06:15 by soswa84

[haregi7418]

Y'all acting a bit entitled at this point.

Why do you think SI should give us a database update for the "2025" season on Football Manager "2024"? FM25 isn't cancelled, it's just delayed.

We don't pay SI a yearly subscription fee. You buy the game that year and get the most up to date squads for THAT year.

Loll why would they give us the database that's meant to be for a new game for free???

 

 

 

[Steady1]

is there going to be a update for fm24

[Robbles Quin ®™]

no one knows what will happen, until it does.

If I were in their position, lets say we have licensing, SEGA and whatever else is going on, what would I do.

I presume just releasing an update, probably requires permission from SEGA, and either permission from all of the licensors, or additional costs to make that happen. But then if that were to happen, what stops those people from getting FM25 and just waiting for FM26. Also not releasing FM25, i don't even think it is possible because of pages and pages of everything that is legal/binding contracts with just about everyone. Also a chance that there's nothing legal stopping them either, its speculation. 

I would think back to Football Manager 2019, remember the demo they had with Hashtag in the Thurlow Nunn Eastern Senior League (South). what IF, again speculations and whatnot, what IF, they release a playable demo or update the FM24 demo, with the one season trial that they had, but with the updated seasons and players, again IF it was a solution.  It would A, provide a solution that wont harm them since they can stop the demo once FM25 is nearing release, stops people from forgetting about FM25 by locking it to a single season, since the 90% majority want updated squads for the current season and not really beyond, provides Content Creators with something to do for a few months, and have it be from a financial standpoint viable.

Again to be taken with a grain of salt, since there is probably enough legal ***** to sift through just to see any viable solutions. I do think SI will address the situation when they have a solution, because the people that I know there are really good folk. 

anyways just my two cents on the matter.

[Carambau]

You can already close this thread. We won´t get it.

[TheBigBoss]

5 hours ago, haregi7418 said:

Y'all acting a bit entitled at this point.

Why do you think SI should give us a database update for the "2025" season on Football Manager "2024"? FM25 isn't cancelled, it's just delayed.

We don't pay SI a yearly subscription fee. You buy the game that year and get the most up to date squads for THAT year.

Loll why would they give us the database that's meant to be for a new game for free???

 

 

 

Hardly entitlement the least they could do after taking pre orders knowing full well the game will get delayed, by the time the games out most seasons in Europe will be ending 

[albertocerdeira.4]

A comment by SI could be enough

[haregi7418]

They said they'd refund everyone.

[haregi7418]

1 hour ago, TheBigBoss said:

Hardly entitlement the least they could do after taking pre orders knowing full well the game will get delayed, by the time the games out most seasons in Europe will be ending 

They said they'd refund everyone 

[Vänsterback]

1 hour ago, TheBigBoss said:

Hardly entitlement the least they could do after taking pre orders knowing full well the game will get delayed, by the time the games out most seasons in Europe will be ending 

It's Karen level entitlement at this point. Of course SI owe a refund to the 17 people who pre-ordered but they don't owe FM24-players anything. That game was delivered as expected.

Not that their FM25 announcement was ok. It was a disaster, but if you didn't invest anything more than your expectations in that game you have to get over it already. As said above, it's not a subscription service. And kids, don't pre-order ffs.

 

[Nonlondoner]

There are ways of PC players getting an update patch, though as the game is coded to start in 23/24, you'll always be a year behind.

[jcafcwbb]

20 hours ago, haregi7418 said:

Y'all acting a bit entitled at this point.

Why do you think SI should give us a database update for the "2025" season on Football Manager "2024"? FM25 isn't cancelled, it's just delayed.

We don't pay SI a yearly subscription fee. You buy the game that year and get the most up to date squads for THAT year.

Loll why would they give us the database that's meant to be for a new game for free???

 

 

 

It has nothing to do with being entitled.

The thinking behind the data update is what is best for SI and its employees. Every business has set backs and this could deliver a quick win so to speak and get customers back on side and off their back. I do not think the people we pay licences for will care as long as they get their money as per the contract signed -why would they? All that is needed is a bit of negotiation. 

Have you considered the considerable strain it will put on the SI Games employees to get out FM25 in March and FM26 in November? It would be better to cancel FM25 and rename FM26 to FM25. It will give them a year to get the game out and lessen crunch. My gut feel is they are under pressure from Sega to get income in before the end of their financial year and that is the only reason we have FM25 releasing in March. That would be better realised by having paid updates for the FM24 game. I feel it would be far easier to produce updates and have FM25 releasing November 25 than having it release March 25.

In answer to your obvious question - I would pay for a data update if it was needed to support SI but I wonder if Sega could support this game by allowing them to do it for free. 

Edited 18 hours ago by jcafcwbb

[Matezet]

I think we’re all disappointed about the delay, including SI. On the other hand nothing is more disappointing than to play a game full of bugs. I think it was the right decision.

For now I’m still enjoying FM24 and I’ll wait patiently. Having said that, I’m also hoping for an data-update, or at least an announcement if it will happen or not and why. 
 

A big part of the strength and succes of FM lies in his community. There aren’t that many close and dedicated communities as we are. We’re playing the game for years and do more. In my opinion SI doesn’t pay enough attention to this. They should be more aware of our wishes. That doesn’t mean they have to fullfill them (immediately) but an open and reasoned reaction gives more insight and takes the sting out of (especially this) the discussion.

I’ll hope they’ll do.

[themadsheep2001]

I very much doubt they will do an update. Frankly i dont think its worth the time or the strain it will put on SI staff and the volunteer researchers 

[John100]

I think it is one area where more clarity is needed, bc if the game is going to be pushed so far, how will that affect future game releases and game data updates with football season being over or out of synch with game ?

We will just need to wait and see, but it's one more complication of delaying the launch of the game.

Edited 7 hours ago by John100

[The Reaper]

1 saat önce, themadsheep2001 said:

I very much doubt they will do an update. Frankly i dont think its worth the time or the strain it will put on SI staff and the volunteer researchers 

I think it's interesting that they haven't made an official statement. They need to come out and say whether we will be doing a data update or not

[samrnpage]

Honestly, at this point, id rather they'd focus everyone and every resource onto FM25. The very selfless community will give us a season update. I like TheFMEditors update. 

[haregi7418]

21 minutes ago, samrnpage said:

Honestly, at this point, id rather they'd focus everyone and every resource onto FM25. The very selfless community will give us a season update. I like TheFMEditors update. 

I agree with this

 

Id rather SI put FM24 aside and put all their focus on 25

 

Y'all have to stop asking for an update, it's not going to happen, ever. 

Let SI work In peace. They got a major game to blow us away with.

 

 

[Barnzy]

Another former researcher here who has been through various iterations of data collection an research - agree with most other researches that this wouldn’t be a case of reverse engineering FM25 data, and if that’s the case asking the research teams to start over again is really unfair - just having to do 2 updates a season was time consuming enough for me

[Drago_zgb]

If we got winter update, i dont see why it would be any different for one more summer update?

You all talking about how it cannot be done, but we are still on the sam engine, and the same game.

It was the same in november of 2023 when it came out, and it was the same dew months later when we got winter update.

Why wouldnt be possible?

 

Also, i am sure most of us would gladly pay portion of price for new update. You could start new game with official new database for few euros/pounds/dollars. SI would get some cash injection for their work on FM25 (since they wont get that kind of cash in november).

 

I also dont want other fan-based update. I want real update from real researchers who always contribute to database.

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

 Frankly i dont think its worth the time or the strain it will put on SI staff and the volunteer researchers 

100% this. 

I want FM25 to be as ready as possible when it's released. The last thing I want is for SI to be faffing about trying to port the new database back to FM24 just to release an 'update', when ALL hands should be on deck trying to get the new game out. 

But we live in age of entitlement, so the demands for this are hardly surprising. 

[SimonHoddle]

SI staff read this forum. Can you please put this debate to bed either way. 

[SuperMeppen]

15 hours ago, jcafcwbb said:

It has nothing to do with being entitled.

The thinking behind the data update is what is best for SI and its employees.

No, it's pure entitlement. Look at how many people are saying SI must do this or owe people this. SI don't owe anyone anything. They gave you FM24 and now you have to wait for FM25. Stuff happens, it is not a mature or reasonable response to state a company owes you something for a delay.

As for 'what is best for SI and its employees' - what? 

How is it better for SI? They can (and I'm sure often do) ignore the noise on here and other social media whilst they focus on, y'know, delivering FM25. Diverting any level of resource when things clearly are already in trouble is a terrible decision. And the history of this franchise shows that people will moan and shout about how they won't buy the next version when a previous version disappoints - but even with the mess of CM4, it didn't stop CM03/04 being a mega hit (at the time). With nowhere else to go, any threats to boycott or abandon are completely hollow. SI knows this, everybody on this forum should know this.

People are entitled to feel disappointed/sad/upset about the delay - but that is a 'them' problem to deal with - it's not on SI to do something special or out of the norm to make you all feel warm and fuzzy inside again.

[Dagenham_Dave]

6 hours ago, The Reaper said:

They need to come out and say whether we will be doing a data update or not

They really don't.