Rob1981

Is it though? Think back to the late 90s and people would have been saying “it’s when not if” back then… just the same. And we definitely didn’t think we were crap at the time, we only became crap in the record books because the results didn’t materialise. The Euro 96 squad included Gary Neville (21), Robbie Fowler [21], Sol Campbell [21], Redknapp [22], Mcmanaman [24], Shearer [25]… plus then the likes of Beckham, Scholes, Owen and Rio Ferdinand coming through to make their debuts between Euro 96 and France 98. Imagine going back in time to 1996-97. After two semi finals in six years and with a load of emerging talent and with Glenn Hoddle as a cultured manager that had played overseas. Nobody would have believed they would be waiting until 2018 to see England in another semi final. But there was a ten-tournament run of: R16, Grp, QF, QF, QF, DNQ, R16, QF, Grp, R16. We could easily go another half a dozen tournaments without reaching the last four again, whether we change the manager or not. You can’t take regular runs to semi finals and finals for granted.

Is it though? Or maybe I only go so far the other way because I have to counter balance all the bollocks people talk. It will be fun arguing about the new guy either way. I’m guessing he doesn’t do any better but people somehow decide it is OK next time around.

You have read these forums, right?

Well done everyone

10 votes for England When will you learn?

I feel like I should make some kind of big closing speech, but I can't possibly improve on this I am genuinely quite emotional. But it is the right time.

We aren’t getting Klopp Stop torturing yourselves.

At the very least they ought to put up a framed photo of Oyarzabal scoring the winner. See what people make of that. “Why have you got that photo up of Spain winning the Euros?” ”Well because some internet weirdos did a sweepstake and then when Spain won and England didn’t it meant that… erm… actually I don’t understand either”.

Dunno to be honest. I think everyone had pretty much accepted he was moving on before the tournament started. Then after the semi final there was suddenly a load more noise about him signing a new contract after all. But I think he needs to leave now, if only to move the conversation on. I very much doubt anybody else is going to come in and do any better. But we can't have another 2-4 years of the same hand-wringing about whether or not he's the right manager. It's turning the whole experience into something quite draining and negative, even though we have still been getting results right up until yesterday. He really should have won WC2022 if he wanted a fairytale ending.

Works both ways though. Always at the two extremes. We could have equalised with one of those headers in the last minute and somehow ground out a win in extra time. Then he would be a hero. Pundits would be falling over themselves to backtrack on all their previous criticism. And most people would be on board with extending his contract. But we would still have played terrible football nearly all the way through. For all the talk of performances vs results... out of his four tournaments, it is ironic that we played our best football when we went out in the quarters instead of getting to a semi final or a final.

Oh yeah, totally. He's got to evolve stuff and bring some new players through. Can't pick the same players forever. But you could bring through some like-for-like replacements, even if they aren't the 'best' players most in vogue at club level... then allows you to keep the overall system similar for everyone else. Instead of that, we've pooled the best individuals at the end of the season based on club performances... then had to try and reinvent whole new ways of playing. Maybe an elite tactician could win doing the latter, but Southgate has never been that guy.

I wouldn't say he "bowed to public pressure" necessarily. But he's definitely gone with form players and changes of system instead of certain players that have already done a job for him over mulitple years. But probably he's put that pressure on himself as much as it's been put on him from outside. I guess he WANTS to win playing brilliant football with the best available squad. Instead of leaving some big names out and accepting he isn't sure how to reinvent a system and to get the best out of them all. In hindsight, probably would have been better sticking to the WC22 formation with Bellingham as an #8 and runners out wide going beyond Kane. But if we set up like this and still lose, people are asking why Bellingham isn't further up the pitch where he smashes it for Real Madrid. And saying that Foden should be given the freedom to cut inside so he can get more involved in the game.

You are aware that we don't play any internationals between November and March, right? I'm not sure when you think the likes of Mainoo and Palmer and Gordon are racking up caps when they are only playing their way into contention in the second half of the season. So you can take in-form players, but if they are young and they are coming in off their breakthrough season then you've got to be tactically spot on. Because you aren't going to get much chance to work with them beforehand, and you aren't going to be able to give them much experience in other games. But "tactically spot on" isn't how Gareth has got results in the past. "Someone else" Brilliantly non-specific. Henderson clung on to his place because there weren't many obvious candidates pushing him very hard. Again, we aren't busy integrating Mainoo/Wharton into Henderson's position at the point Henderson moves to Saudi, because they aren't in contention until the last few months of the season... by which time we've only got a couple of friendlies left.

Southgate has mostly done this though pre-2024, that's the frustrating thing. He's generally had a system and kept faith with certain players to work within it. To the point that he's routinely criticised for being too loyal, or for ignoring players in better form for their clubs. And now he's tried to find a winning formula using all best individual talents. It's hardly surprise that it didn't work. Although it is a surprise that people have already forgotten that it is how they wanted us to try and win.

Well, not really. We played our best football under Southgate at WC2022, even though we went out of the tournament at the earliest stage. Then unbeaten all through 2023, including the two wins over Italy home and away. It's only really been the back end of this last season that we tried to move Bellingham further up the pitch, and also sacrificed the likes of Rashford and Grealish running beyond Kane. Foden was still a sub for the first five qualifiers, for instance. In fact, he and Bellingham only started 1/8 qualifiers in the same XI. But they are both undroppable now based on club performances... so we have had to try and find some way of accommodating both. I don't think you can assume AN Other manager coming in is going to do much differently. I doubt anyone is going to come in and drop Kane/Bellingham/Foden for the good of the team. Or even necessarily move Bellingham back to a deeper position whilever he is smashing it for Real Madrid. The next manager is still going to think that they can find a formula to get them all performing like they do for their clubs. Just have to hope they are better at it.

It was exactly like this I don't know why you still think I'm arguing with you.

He's tried to get Bellingham and Foden both playing a #10 role because they are both excelling there for their clubs. Instead of telling Bellingham to sit deeper and play Henderson's old role, which would have been better for the team. You've literally said this yourself about 10 times.

Of course it's on him. He's tried to win a different way, instead of sticking to the methods that got results in the past. And it's backfired horribly.

Yeah, the left back situation was weird. But since 2022 people have wanted the likes of Maguire, Henderson, Phillips and Rashford dropped... in favour of players that were bang in form for their clubs. So they are all dropped... great, right? But it turns out when you aren't a brilliant tactician and you don't get that much time on the training ground... it's quite hard to magic all the better players into a winning team if they haven't got a couple of mainstays alongside them doing the donkey work.

Because it was working well until this summer. It's not complicated.

I think he wanted to be the guy that got the best out of Foden, Bellingham, Kane, Rice and Saka et al. And then won the tournament playing brilliant football. He isn't a good enough tactician to mould these players into a perfect system, especially when they don't get that much time to work together. But he also abandoned the methods that made him successful in the past... because another 2-3 years into their club careers some of these players are much harder to leave out. I don't think this is bowing to public pressure necessarily, it's him wanting to win the 'right' way and not being up to it. But clearly it's what the public wanted as well for the most part.

He obviously picked the squad people were clamouring for. Then didn't really know what to do with it. But that's clearly on him, not on anybody else.

No, it doesn't reflect well on him at all It has been a shambles this year. I have been pretty critical all the way through tbf. Although that hasn't stopped people imagining posts where I've sung Southgate's praises... so that they can continue to argue points I've never made.

We did this before this tournament though, and people still didn't like it. When we stuck with a system and used the most appropriate players to fit within it... people just kicked off that a 'better' player wasn't getting in the side. But this year we did the opposite, and it looked wrong from the off. Finally picking all the best individual players based on club form... but then he ended up with a squad he didn't know how to get the best out of. Hilarious that people have been calling for Rashford because he fits the system, after spending a year saying that Rashford was out of form and should be dropped.

Who knew.