[How can I improve chance creation in this tactic]

13 hours ago, trueblue9877 said:

Without seeing how the tactic plays in a game, I would straight away say that there’s not enough penetration in the tactic

Only your AF is on attack duty and he will most likely be isolated as well

A couple of quick changes you could try would be changing the AF to a DLF-S, putting the IF on attack duty and one of the CMs on attack duty. A MEZ-S might even work nicely on the W-S side 

 

[4-4-2 Counter Attack]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Do your forwards also lack speed? 

The TQ has 10 accelerations and 10 pace, the Poacher has (roughly) 12 acceleration and 13 pace - off the top of my head

[4-4-2 Counter Attack]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Yes. Assuming you intend to play him on attack duty. 

Yeah I do. I think I may need help beating the high press. 

It’s always a 4231 that I come up against. So I’m thinking about dropping the TQ to the AM strata so he drops deeper and offers a long option for the CBs and FBs when the opposition are pressing high. Also, we lack speed so I think my “pass into space” instruction is being wasted.

I’ve left things unchanged the last few games against those teams and have struggled

[4-4-2 Counter Attack]

On 11/05/2020 at 22:42, Experienced Defender said:

Well, you are already playing him as a poacher, which is a good match for a TQ in terms of role combinations. Of course, I don't know your players and therefore cannot tell you which role(s) would suit any of them. AF can also be paired with a TQ. And target man can be paired with any role, but I guess he's not that type of striker. 

 

AP as a role is suitable for a counter tactic, and definitely more so than DLP (which does not mean that a DLP as such cannot be used in a counter tactic). But the problem in your setup specifically is that you already have a playmaker - TQ. But given that you said the tactic has worked well so far, better don't make any changes (unless it stops working). 

I forgot the Treq is a playmaker!! Thanks for that

Would you say a PF could work well in a counter attacking system alongside a TQ?

[Tempo]

Really glad I asked this question, I've learned so much from this thread. Thanks to all of you who replied and contributed!!

[4-4-2 Counter Attack]

Hi everyone

I started a thread regarding tempo and how it affects the team and got some great responses. I wanted to post my tactic here rather than on that thread as this is no longer regarding tempo. Here's the tactic:

I am aiming to play counter attacking football where we soak up pressure then hit teams on the break. Looking for opinions on it. After two games it seems to be working well. Before the change, we had went 8 games without a win!

I previously used a DLF-S instead of the TQ, however @Experienced Defender suggested I change him to a DLF-A. When I went to do this I realised I had a player capable of playing as a TQ and Experienced Defender has said before if he had a player able to play that role he would definitely be using it. 

Before I used Shankland as a TQ he hadn't scored in 28 hours of football. After this change he's now scored 4 in his last 2 - he has great off the ball, anticipation and composure attributes. I was actually close to selling him when he wasn't performing, little did I know it was actually a tactical problem. He also has the traits "plays with back to goal", "comes deep to get ball" and "moves into channels". All which, as far as I'm aware, suit this role perfectly (?)

Keane has very poor aggression (4) so I'm reluctant to use him as a PF, does anyone suggest another role which could benefit the tactic?

I also changed Hendry to an AP-S as his attributes in vision, passing, composure and decisions and traits (tries killer balls) were getting wasted (in my opinion) as a BBM or CM-A. Is an AP-S still suitable for a counter attacking tactic? Or could this slow down the play at all?

Thanks in advanced for your help

Thanks

 

[Tempo]

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, so you want to play a basically counter-attacking style. Besides the setup of roles and duties, which obviously needs some tweaking, a team instruction that makes very little (if any) sense in counter-attacking football is - dribble less. Because in counter-oriented tactics, the goal is to get the ball forward as quickly as possible - not just by more direct and/or long-ish passes, but also by running with the ball through the open spaces between and behind opposition lines. Therefore, I would definitely advise you to get rid of the dribble less TI. 

Other instructions make sense, but will not be effective until you set roles and duties up more sensibly (especially duties). 

This is actually they tweaked version. This is what I had originally 

                 P-A       T-A

IW-S      BWM-S   CM-D     W-S

FB-A      CD-D      CD-D     FB-S

                     GK-D

Dribble less was selected to, hopefully, encourage them to play the ball up further and I thought I noticed us losing the ball a lot during games from dribbles

Any changes you would make to the original screenshots role? Or even the ones I’ve wrote above?

Thanks

[Tempo]

I

So here's the system I've been using. The aim was to: pull the opposition forward, soak up some pressure then get the ball through to the IW-A or for DLF-S to knock on to the P-A or BBM-S when he makes an underlapping run. I did question whether "More Direct Passing" was the right instruction for this rather than "Pass Into Space". The W-S was there to cross and make runs from deep and the FB-A to overlap him and provide crosses.

Anyway, relating back to my original question, the team are poor in work rate, pace, decisions, anticipation. Would a shorter and slower passing game suit that type of team?

My thinking behind this is if I use "Higher tempo" I'm worried my players are being rushed into making decisions and therefore making a poorer one. 

When I say this tactic was doing poorly, I'm talking 2 shots in a game against the oppositions 22. 

Also, I'm wondering if I could get some help on what to look for during games in terms of analysing my tactic. I let a tactic play out for 3-4 games but don't know what I should be watching, I get a bit overwhelmed by watching the ball and everything else that's going on. If anyone could provide some tips or point me in the direction of another thread/blog/guide that would be great.

Thanks in advanced for all your help!

[Tempo]

6 hours ago, Zemahh said:

Don't fall into the trap of adding or removing instructions based solely on attributes. A cohesive tactic that makes sense is more important than trying to adapt things for every player individually. Especially when it comes to instructions that affect the whole team, such as tempo.

For example, if your plan is to play counter-attacking football, lower tempo makes absolutely no sense, regardless of what the Team Report says.

My plan originally was to play counter-attacking football, however it wasn't working at all. I had (in my opinion) all the right roles/duties and a well balanced system however we couldn't get out of our own half most of the time. That's what made me wondered if my teams lower ratings for the mentioned attributes were playing a part in my players before rushed into a decision therefore making a poorer one.

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Might be, but not necessarily. Depends also on your team mentality and passing style, because these are directly linked with tempo. 

Of course, all other elements of the tactic must be taken into account as well. But we can discuss them once you post the screenshot of your tactic. 

I'll load up FM later on tonight and provide a screenshot of the system. Thanks

 

2 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Just to piggyback on this - Decisions and Anticipation are two of the attributes I hold in the highest regard. Have a search for players with extremely high values (17+) in both these attributes and see what comes back 

I will admit my transfer policy during the last window was poor. Instead of bringing in players who had the attributes I wanted to replace the ones who had the attributes I didn't, I just replaced the "poorer" players in the team based on their star ratings  Thank you for your response

[Tempo]

Hello all

Just a quick question before I post my tactic for help later on today. My question is regarding the tempo team instruction:

If my team are lacking in decision making, vision and anticipation, would a lower tempo be a sensible choice of TI?

For example, does the lower tempo tend to give the player more time to make a decision on the ball therefore leading to a higher chance of them making a good (or better) decision?

Thanks 

[Losing Streak - Way to break it]

15 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

When you play with 2 strikers, one should be played in a creator type of role and the other as a simple runner or scorer. But your formation employs only 1 striker, so this "rule" applies in a bit different way. 

Creator roles are: CF, TQ, F9 and DLF. Runner/scorer roles are: AF, poacher and PF. Target man is sort of a "special case", as he can be a bit of both, depending on the system around him and the type of player. 

Typically, what would you recommend in lone striker formations? A runner or creator?

I know context matters but I’m just curious about the options

For example would you use an AF-A in a counter attacking system since he is a runner? Or would you leave him to a 2 man partnership?

The creators on attack would obviously suit for a possession based tactic but it’s the counter attack I’m more curious about. If I wanted someone to focus on goals in a counter attack system, for example 

[Why this is so random?! So hard?! Advice needed]

9 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

Okay.. now I edited it into this

 

 

This seems like a common case of over worrying about the way your team is going to play or them doing things you don’t want to see

I think a lot of people want wing play (for example) but are worried that their players will start taking long shots all the time unless they tick “Work ball into box” so they do which then conflicts with the style of play they want and their other instructions. 
 

The same goes with you choosing “focus play down middle”, you’ve said you want wing play but you’ve only chosen this team instruction because you’ve seen it work on the plug & play tactics. 
 

You need to really think about what instructions match with the way you want to play and leave out the ones that contradict this.

 

Also it’s never usually recommended to use 2 playmakers in the midfield right next to each other. I would recommend changing the AP to more of a runner, the BTB was a better choice in the first screenshot you posted - especially for the style you’re trying to achieve. 

[New save with Atletico Madrid]

16 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Sweeper keeper can work with any DL, but in this tactic it's not lower. Only LOE is lower. 

Just realised this, my bad!

17 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

For which team - OP's (Atletico) or some else?

Anyway, given that the tactic is meant to be counter-attacking and that there already is a playmaker (TQ), I would rather avoid another PM role. You can have a playmaker in a counter-attacking tactic if you want, but it's not necessary for such type of football (as opposed to possession-oriented styles).

Just for teams in general that possess players who can play DLP. I assume if you wanted to use a DLP you would change the TQ to something like a DLF for example?

Thanks for replying!

[New save with Atletico Madrid]

On 13/02/2020 at 23:32, Experienced Defender said:

First the roles and duties:

TQ   AF/PFat

IWsu    CMde   CAR    WMsu

FBat    CDde   BPDde   WBsu

SKsu

Starting team instructions:

Mentality - Positive

In possession - play out of defence, shorter passing, higher tempo, hit early crosses (and optionally/occasionally - run at defence)

In transition - counter, distribute quickly

Out of possession - lower LOE

Player instructions:

ML/IWsu - Lemar - sit narrower

MCR/CAR - Koke - take more risks, close down more

MCL/CMde - Llorente - tackle harder

STCL/AF(PFat) - Costa - close down more

Any questions?

This is really interesting! I’m currently using a 442 after just being promoted that I would like to have counter attacking football with.

I never knew a sweeper keeper would work with a lower defensive line? Shorter passes is something I didn’t expect to see either

What’s the reason for tackle harder PI on Llorente?

Seeing as OP is a top team, would you consider using a DLP-S instead of the CAR in the central midfield pairing?

Always interesting to see your take on things @Experienced Defender!

[‘ They peg them back immediately ‘]

28 minutes ago, darren1589 said:

Ok I’ll make the changes tonight and report back. Last season I had Brewster on loan from Liverpool and played him in the AF role and he scored 32 goals in all competitions. Could have been due to the lower level him having such a prolific season. Would he suit the PF on attack role do you think ? Have tweaked the distribution to cb’s and fb’s and taken off counter and see how I go. 
 

thanks very much 

Mate it sounds like you’re having a cracking time to be honest! A striker scoring 36 goals and finished 3rd in the league plus promotion! Sometimes if you’re losing silly games or silly goals it can be down to other factors than the tactic! If it’s working majority of the season then don’t change what isn’t broken!

[‘ They peg them back immediately ‘]

48 minutes ago, darren1589 said:

I always watch on key highlights to be honest mate, always have done. I had been putting my wing back on attack on the left side purely as my right back was much weaker in that department. I shall take your advice and try that out and see if that makes a difference. Finished 3rd in league one, was neck and neck pretty much the entire season and then fell away in the last few games due to the issues I have wrote about here. Totally blew it. So it only really started the last 4/5 games of the season, and now first league game of the new season in the championship so unfortunately carried on into the new season. I can totally accept not winning each week as I am Sunderland and now in the championship probably expected to finish in the lower half of the league if not battle relegation, but it's this same issue I really want to try and iron out if I can  

 

haha will def need to use that pause button more ! 

That’s another problem then mate - using key highlights! You don’t get the full picture watching on key, comprehensive is the best but extended at the very least. From key highlights you can’t see where the opponent is leaving space, where you’re struggling to cope, if you’re creating good enough chances. For all you know in those games you might have been lucky to score the goals you did and should have lost. 
 

It’s tedious but you get used to comprehensive highlights, when you’re doing well in the game and are happy with the way the games going I suppose you could go to extended to speed things up but you must really know your tactic in and out 

[Just can’t win]

5 hours ago, TMitC said:

I think it's more likely that there's something built-in to the game that makes certain clubs just a bad fit for you.

 

This most definitely isn’t the case. The game is evolving every year and the AI is becoming more and more clever. No more can you expect to use 1 tactic against every team you play as they all play differently 

From your OP it also sounds like you’re changing your tactic a lot which won’t be good for your teams familiarity with it. Your team needs to learn your tactic as much as possible and get used to the way you want to play, even if that is a downloaded tactic. 
 

Remember also that even though you’re using a “plug and play” tactic you will still need to make changes during the game when you see fit. It’s not all on cruise control for you

 

Good luck

[‘ They peg them back immediately ‘]

Remember as well you can always pause the game (good for celebrating a goal ) then asses the situation and make changes, if any, as necessary

[‘ They peg them back immediately ‘]

2 hours ago, darren1589 said:

To be totally honest Chip on some of the occasions where it has happened i haven't changed anything and it still happened. I was in a push for the title so when i scored i was too busy celebrating lol then by the time the highlight of my goal finished it jumped straight to the next highlight a minute later and it was the opposite team running up the park and scoring. 

would you suggest dropping the wingback back down to a full back on support in this situation ?

i never know what to do i really don't, it does sometimes come across as damned if you do changed damned if you don't. 

when i score the thinking of lowering the tempo was not rushing the ball forward or around too quickly with the possibility of a miscontrolled pass or poor first touch as my players are not technically gifted yet. 

What highlights do you watch on? 
 

I think using a WB is good but on support or defend duty as you don’t want him forgetting his defensive duties too much. I don’t use it a lot but on your right side an IWB on support might work nicely (if you have the player to fit it). EDIT: FB on attack may also be a good option

When you score, teams should (not always) open up more as they try to push for an equaliser so using a higher tempo is good for knocking the ball quickly, as well as being more direct and passing into space. This obviously all depends on your players atts

How is the season going overall? Does this happen every game or has it just been a blip? It’s important to remember the team you are, the quality of players you have and that it’s not normal to win every game every week!

[Atalanta is sinking! - Narrow 4321 help]

On 05/04/2020 at 12:20, mikcheck said:

!PI's: 

AMCL - Stay wider and roam from position

DLP and Mezzala - Take more risks.

      

 

I think your tactic is OK in terms of balance. Your right flank may be quite exposed, maybe changing your WB to Defend duty to help that side. 
 

What’s the reason for using offside trap and a sweeper keeper if you don’t have a higher defensive line?

You’re asking them to play through the middle when the middle is already congested so I’d take that off as there’s no need for it. Your play will mainly be through the middle anyway

Also what’s the reason for defend wider?
 

What way are you actually wanting to play? I can’t really tell from the Roles and TI’s. 
 

In order to create a bit more space up  front, choose a role that will free up space. Maybe a DLF on attack or change your AM to an AP so the opposition might surround him more as the ball will arrive to him more. This might create space for your striker and SS

[‘ They peg them back immediately ‘]

I would maybe try not changing anything after you score? If every time you change something, you concede, maybe stop tweaking as much.

Also your left flank looks a bit vulnerable, your wingback will have his work cut out trying to get back to cover that wing

Whats your reasoning for lowering the tempo when you concede? If you were looking to sit back and hit them on the counter, keeping your tempo higher would probably help this

[How trainning schedules affects tactics]

On 30/03/2020 at 18:42, Experienced Defender said:

 

@big daddy @Chip Guys, please keep strictly to the topic. Of course you can have different opinions and different tactical approaches, but there is no reason for any argument (quarrel) over your differences, because we are here to try and help the OP with some hopefully useful tactical advice, rather than arguing with one another.

Thank you.

Sorry mate, daft of me to respond.

However still stand by my initial response and thoughts so OP if you’d like to take them on board, feel free and please let me know how you get on!

[How trainning schedules affects tactics]

2 hours ago, big daddy said:

Mr Chip I do not agree with anything you wrote.

I play an almost identical tactic , and my winger support is my assist king of the season, with 19.

the false nine is always in the box when the wide play is leading to a cross, he may well be out of the box when there is central attacking transitions.

the if a and f9 and mez(a) are the ones in the box when there are crosses, the mez arriving at last second  for a shot just inside the box.

so his tactic will work very well with the right players.

 

Really? You don't agree with anything?

Okay, so what mentality do you use? What team are you playing as?

I've only added me two cents based on the image provided - we can't see the players. If you don't agree with anything I said then you clearly don't understand how mentality works in the game because that is one part I said that I'm sure the most experienced players of the game will agree with.

Regardless, the tactic is quite conservative due to the lack of attack duties and the other slightly risky mentality. 

[How trainning schedules affects tactics]

On 23/03/2020 at 21:15, AzevedoVCD said:

and my tactic is the one in the image.

I suposed to dominated most matches but sometimes my players cant score goals, they miss clear chances in front of the goal and my wing back and winger  dont make crosses and when they make there is no one in position to receive the ball.

What am i doing wrong? 

Looking at your tactic I can see a few problem areas. First of all it’s great that you’ve watched games and noticed problems so let’s start with them:

Wing back & Winger don’t make crosses. Your wingback is set to support duty so it’s not always his initial thought to cross and although the Positive team mentality will help, he still won’t be playing that aggressively. Options - change to attack duty or add PI “cross more often”. For your Winger, he’s also on support duty and I’ve found that makes him too deep to be in a good crossing position, I would add the PI “get further forward” as you want him to track back and not have a crazy risky mentality

When they do cross there’s no one in box - that’s because there’s no one in the box. Simple as that. You have a F9 who plays outside the box most of the time then gets into the box later. You’re using a Mez as well who will drift out wide rather than get into the box. Right now only your IF-A will be in the box, really. I’d change your Mez to possibly a CM-A and think about using a Complete Forward rather than an F9. It’s not that the F9 doesn’t work or anything like that but you’re wanting crosses in the box and an F9 is rarely going to get on the end of them unless your winger and wing back were to cross from the byline (which currently they don’t) as this would give players more time to get into the box 

I also think a lot of your problems would be solved if you changed your mentality to attack. You have a lot of support and defend duties so a lot of those players are already playing less risky, on positive they’ll only be slightly more risky in their play. Using attacking will make sure your players look to score as well as keep possession 

Always remember - think about who you want scoring your goals and who will supply them, then look at those things during matches and see if they’re working and if not then why not. 

Hope this helps

[FM17 Help me make Conte's Chelsea 3-4-3]

11 hours ago, JNOUnited said:

Best article I've found on Conte's system.  outside of the boot so cheers chip.

http://outsideoftheboot.com/2016/10/27/tactical-analysis-chelsea-4-0-manchester-united-mourinhos-unhappy-return/

No problem @JNOUnited. There will be many more tactical analysis blogs available so keep an eye out each week after Chelsea play a game and you might find something which will help you. Research always helps when trying to recreate tactics. 

Also, have a read of the '(re)Creating a Tactic' thread on here as this will help you with analysing the tactic etc. It also covers a bit about researching the tactic you wish to create.