skyzekaizo

Creating depth in FM, the eistance between your defensive line and your front line, depends on your opposition's pressing engagement because it sets where your defenders are going to sit during build up, and their defensive line because it sets where your front line will sit during build up. In order to open that space you need to create a threat which they can't cover for with their defensive shape. If they play high press/high def line, switch to a more direct style of play with more attacking duties, early crosses and forget about playing out of defense. If they play a mid block with high def line lower the tempo and consider using a HB to get them to commit to the press and open up their defensive shape (also becsuse of the high line you still need to consistently threaten them with direct pings). Against standard or lower defensive lines you generally should not struggle in creating depth unless all your players are crashing the box simultaneously

I would recommend against FM24 and try FM23 or 22. FM24's match engine is insanely bad and players rarely make any good decisions, their movement is 100% reproduction of how players move on table football, and they consistently choose the worst passing option and loose the ball instead of recycling in away games. Also tactics rarely make a difference in FM24 and you're better off simulating games to get realistic results rather than playing them.

Point 2 and 3 are true, point 1 is completely false though. You can have more than 2 playmakers but you need to space them a bit otherwise you don't give them enough space to shine. Also it's perfectly fine to have playmakers on the wings as they will have more space to breath, it's also completely false to say the AI will close them down easily. I remember using a tactic made by @Novem9 with an AP-s on the wing which spelled all kinds of trouble to the AI, exactly because when the AI tried closing him down they left tons of space for the other players to shine and the AP would rarely loose the ball.

There is a way to do that through OIs I think, I often see the AI doing that to my wingers but Im not really sure how

Yeah funneling the play centrally is tricky, but I found something quite interesting and I'd like to share, because it's funny how counter intuitive this might seem: If you want to play through the middle, play with narrow attacking width, and have your midfielders stay wider, and play with wing backs with stay wider, then you can try 2 BPD with stay wider but generally the game is buggy because when they stay wider the defenders rarely consider passing the ball between themselves. Then you need to play with standard or slightly shorter passing, don't tick play out of defense it's crucial, and and have at least 3 to 4 attacking duties up top. Now it seems counter intuitive but, having the back 4 and the midfielders instructed to stay wider, it opens up the midfield, the opposition cannot high press without leaving tons of space in the middle, your midfielders will have tons of space to receive the ball, plus the attacking duty and the lack of restraint on the passing directness means that if the opposition try to play a high defensive line, they will get plundered. The attacking duties create tons of space for the midfielders. Bonus point if you have your wingers sit narrower with instructions to overlap, the AI tend to tight mark the wingers while funneling the play towards them, if you make them tuck inside it leaves tons of space for your wingbacks to overlap. Alternatively you can have your wingers stay wider and instruct to underlap. Also somehow, it made my F9 shine, he had way more space to receive the ball and he made so much more impact in game

I was hoping more for an explanation on how they differ and what happens when you combine them

do you see a difference between getting further forward, getting into oppositon area and beating offside trap? What happens when you combine them?

My bad, actually when you put overlap on the wing back's side he's pushing up to the front line, so you can create a 325 with a WB in FM24, it's just not as smooth as the previous edition, but it still works out fine.

Isn't gegenpress when you both counter and counter press?

1. When your DLP is on support, its easy for the opposition to either mark him or to force you outside, this will make him less available than the FB. Having him on defend duty will make him more available for a progressive pass from the CBs and for a recycling pass from the RPM, moreover the difference in duties between the two DMs will allow them each to have more space. 2. Your RPM passes primarily to the IW because he's by far his best option to progress the ball. You play with shorter passing so the poacher is not an option until you reach the final third, the left winger is too far, the AM sits in the middle with literally no space to receive and might often be marked out, and the DLP might be hard to find because they sit on the same horizontal line. While the IW has more space to receive and because of his support duty he will come short for the pass. 3. Against a team with a high defensive line or a team forcing you outside, your dlp and rpm are not safe options for your CBs, I had the exact same problem playing a 433 with a dlp-s in CM on the right and a fb-s on the left. Most of the time the team progressed through the fb and not the dlp. (I think if you remove POOD you might see more passes from CB to DMs) Also the attack duties are not to pump balls up front but to create space for your DMs, because if nobody is making the runs, the opposition can easily deny space from your DMs.

I think there are 2 problems in this tactic: You're not creating space for your DMs You're not giving a single realistic outlet to progress the ball forward Try something like this maybe: And if progression is still not going through the middle, try swapping the duties of your ST and AMC.

I really feel like the F9 is too passive and needs other roles to attack the box

How important is it for the CF-s to be strong? Can an dwarf with 5 heading/ jumping reach and 8 strength still make it as a CF-s?

If you want your player to start as a pivot and then go further forward after build up, I think you can try a regista, a RPM in the DM position, a DM-s or SV-s with traits or PI to go further forward. A BWM-s or CM-s will push up because the current ME does not know what to do with central midfielders, it just sticks them into channels and hope for the best.

This does not work, the dlp does not drop consistently enough to make it a viable 3+2 build up shape. Push your wing back up a slot, put your dlp on the DM slot, and normally it should fit in just nice. For some reason the 2 are competing for the same spot during build up, the dlp will be shy about dropping into DM and the wing back will stay deep. While if you put the DLP as a DM there is no competition anymore for the same space, you will see him more available than not because AI has a hard time marking/pressing DMs while it easily marks/press the CMs. Also pushing your wing back up a slot will make it much harder on the opposition to stop you from progressing on that side for multiple reasons

Nope, I think you're spot on about this, but the fact your BBM sits on the CM-A's horizontal line is due to 2 things, first the ME pushes the BBM to occupy the channel, and second it's because this year it's recurrent that the AI plays a high defensive line so it's actually your CM-A that sits on the BBM's horizontal line. Try to play against teams that play a lower or a standard defensive line and you'll notice that your BBM is deeper than your CM-A. The problem is that playing a high defensive line has no drawback in this ME because the number of effective through balls has been drastically reduced in this ME so you see a lot of the AI using it without impunity. Also if you play a high defensive line yourself there are chances that you're squishing the midfield by yourself. The way to deal with it is to force the AI to use a lower defensive line, for that you need to have runners up front and you might need to tick pass into space, hit early crosses, more direct passing, higher tempo and counter press. Or you can have your defenders do the build up and adopt an IWB+IFB combo which is common to every vertical/original-tiki taka or control possession preset tactic with a back four.

It is indeed disappointing, but I learned a few things from this exchange so it's still nice. Although I disagree with you on this ME being objectively better, it is way too rigid and way too one dimensional. For example, if you play a 433 with an IWB-s and IFB-d, the ME recognizes where the players needs to be to reconstruct the 3-box-3, and more often than not the ME rewards you for playing like this, you'll be having plenty of possession and create a lot of chances and you'll have fun in the game. However if you play a 433 which does not translate directly into the 3-box-3 like the one I'm trying to play, you're in for a lot of trouble because the ME does not recognize this pattern and it results in the team having trouble circulating the ball, mostly because midfielders are way too inclined to move into the channels and they don't drop enough, the AML/Rs are way too inclined to stay on the wings during build up, and WBs and FBs don't push high enough during build up. I remember some games in FM24 where I played a WB-a BBM-s IF-s on the left side, and saw my WB-a being on the same horizontal line as my DM, my BBM-s (with the PPM to come deep) sit in the channel and he dropped occasionally, and my IF-s sitting on the wing above my WB-a, which means I can't progress the ball on the left side. However the same setup on FM23 gives a completely different picture, the BBM-s drops into a pivot role, the WB-a pushes up and replace the IF-s which tucks in into the channel, this is the kind of player rotation that lacks in FM24. This rigidity I think, is the main reason why some players tend to play asymmetric tactics, simply because the ME does not allow players to rotate position fluidly, which is ironic given that positional play was supposed to allow just that. The way you set up your 433 is exactly what I dislike about this ME. Every AI manager which favors a 433 tends to use this 3-2 shape during build up, even when they have nowhere near the players to make it work, but it does not matter because the game rewards it more than it punishes them for using players that don't fit the roles. You say you're convinced it should be possible but you didn't try it yet, try it and see for yourself, slower tempo and playing out of defense generally gets you murdered by any team that presses with some intensity.

yeah the ME in FM23 is definitely better when it comes to player's positionning and decisions both with and off the ball, the IF tucks in during build up, the LCM drops deep to act as a pivot, the WB actually pushes up the flank and even with shorter passing there are still some good through balls here and there from the defensive unit when there's a good opportunity. Also its possible to actually play without counter and/or with a lower tempo.

So I tried a few variations, I edited the players to give them the traits I wanted and good attributes where it matters (15 to 17) and 19 consistency, and yet I haven't found what I'd like to see on the pitch. The W-a looses the ball in average 26 times per game, either because he can't cross early, or he gets closed down as soon as he receives the ball and make the bad decision of trying to dribble instead of passing to the FB-s or the CM-a, he also can't make a single succesful run in behind the defense to save his lofe, even with the trait, the acceleration and the DLP-d which regularly feeds him through balls. The IF, when on support, is wonderful in order to progress the ball, rarely looses the ball when closed down, but isn't making enough threatening runs in behind and that's not really good given I need someone to pin the defensive line back. When on attack though, he makes really good runs in the channel and when he receives the ball in the channel, generally I know there's a goal or a good chance coming, but as soon as he receives the ball wide during progress, he's behaving just like the winger and gets closed down too easily. The CM-a and the F9 generally don't have enough space to shine, and they don't swap positions that often, generally there's a gap created by the CM-a going up which the F9 has trouble occupying, and generally the opposition can play a higher to much higher defensive line without being punished for it, because the wingers fail at pinning them back. One of the biggest gripe I have with the game so far has to be with the left midfielder, no matter which role I play him on (CAR-s, BBM-s, CM-s, DLP-s). During build up he's generally always a bit too high, so the play goes through the right side instead of through him. And the few times he receives the ball during build up, this is what happens: I'm the blue side, The number 7 is my CWB, and the 6 is my CAR-s in the left half space, the CWB is both too high to give a recycling option to my CAR, and too deep to make the IF tuck in and create space for the CAR-s. This lack of space is generally made worse by the fact that the CAR does not drop enough, so he gets closed down by the opposition's winger, striker and right midfielder. If he indeed dropped down to a pivot position, he would have enough time and space to pick up a pass, but I think that this ME pushes the midfielders into the half space too often. I could maybe use a defensive duty instead, but I'm not sure he would be available as an option for the CWB or IF to recycle once we get to the byline. Also, during the final third, even as a DLP-s he sits way too high the left channel instead of chilling with the DM. Finally, I'm not fond of the meta in this edition, you cannot really play a slightly lower tempo or even standard tempo without getting butchered. So I think I'll go back to FM23 and see if it's any better.

I've tried it in a few games, the combination CWB-s CAR-s IF-s is quite good tbh but the IF does not challenge the defense line like I would like him to, so I went with the following setup: SK-s FB-s BPD-d BPD-d WB-s DLP-d CM-a CAR-s W-a F9-s IF-a the instructions are POOD, fairly narrow, low crosses, shorter passing Counter press, slow pace down high def line, high press, prevent short GK distribution I also tried something similar when playing away but with counter instead of counter press, mid block standard def line, pass into space and hit early crosses in a balanced mentality. But somehow it works better when simulating than when playing the match.

Wow this looks good! I'll try it asap, btw why did you choose a DM-s over a DM-d? Thanks!

Nope, I think 4231 is just better at doing things in FM24, I have a mentality and technical monster in central midfield, but he somehow gets wrecked during away games, looses the ball, has hard time getting defense splitting passes and does not drop as deep as he should (even with adequate traits), while the other CM is definitely not as attacking as a SS-a or AM-a and therefore does not create enough space for my F9 to thrive in. I think that the CM slot is quite one dimension in this ME, it's really good at giving options in the half space for deeper players and overall it creates a lot of chances when above the halfway line, but it definitely is weak when playing as a pivot. This edition it feels like the double DM pivot is almost impossible to press, while the CM dropping to help build up is the guy to trigger the press on 9 times out of 10. Given that, maybe it's actually smarter to have both CM occupy the channels and let the defensive third do the build up, I thought about using something like that: SK-s IFB-d L-s CD-d CWB-s HB-d MEZ-a BBM-s (or maybe RPM or CM) W-s/a F9-s IF-a This would secure a back three in possession, have another option to progress the ball from the back other than my BBM/RPM/CM, and create space for both my MEZ and my F9 to receive and ping balls to the IF or the winger. I plan to use it this evening and see how it goes, as for the TI I'll use POOD, focus middle, low crosses, shorter passing and fairly narrow, counter press, high press, high def line. I'll let you know if it is any good.

Does the treq drop deeper than a F9? Is it frequent? Because earlier this year I take a long look at passing maps it always looked like he received the ball higher than any other players on the pitch. Earlier this year I also tried a quite similar tactic on positive mentality, the problem I had was that my players weren't making enough off the ball runs, so the opposition generally could either slot a DM and eclipse my F9, or play a much higher defensive line with high intensity pressing and make my whole front 3 useless.

It looks neat but my striker is a young Messi, so I'm not sure about playing him as a CF or a DLF.

I have a few questions about your tactic, first what's the impact of having a structured team fluidity over a flexible/fluid team fluidity? Is it ok to play positive with few supports and 4 defensive duties? While playing fairly wide, I had the following problems: - passes from the flank to my CMs are too easy to intercept, and are rare because they'd rather attack the flanks. - wingers get too easily pressed down (happens a lot during away games if coupled with slightly higher tempo), maybe because they don't have short passing options? - counter pressing is harder because everyone is spread across the field - wing backs generally have no room to shine because the wingers are wide - the striker is even more isolated, has no options for a short pass or one two and if on support duty he gets bypassed too often Did you notice the same issues? Or maybe it boils down to passing directness? When your HB-d drops your BBM is your only pivot and he's not staying there for long, what happens when you get into the opposition third? Who's dictating plays from midfield? About the tempo, how do you decide which tempo is right during the match? I'm generally using the opposition's OPPDA to understand whether the tempo is right or not (and even with that I'm not sure what I'm doing really), but are there other metrics or hints to look for when deciding which tempo to play with? Do you feel like the instruction POOD hinders your tactic sometimes? In FM23, even with POOD you'd get early crosses from your fullbacks or long balls from your BPD or DM to the wingers or the striker when the timing was right. In this ME I feel like the POOD instruction severely prohibits these plays. For example, I almost never see a through ball from my DM unless I instruct him to take more risks, and these balls are definitely less frequent than in FM23. Finally, I'm quite stubborn and I want to have a F9 in a 433 and make him shine. It might be a bad idea tbh and maybe I should try a 4231 with a SS-a but I'm too committed to this to give up here, so I thought that, in this ME central midfielders really don't like dropping as deep as before, and they're really easy to press down for some reason, even with astounding mentals and technicals, so what about having a setup like this: SK-s IFB-d L-s CD-d CWB-s HB-d MEZ-a BBM-s W-s F9-s IF-a The rational behind this would be that the libero should have the space to dribble into the pivot position during build up, the BBM will not have to drop as deep and therefore is not the only option to progress the ball from the back, the right side of the tactic should allow the F9 to have space to thrive in (maybe I'll try a W-a) to make sure the opposition's defence is pushed back enough. I might have a CM-a instead to make sure he doesn't go too wide and frequently swap positions with the F9. Although, would the BBM leave a hole in the midfield when entering the final third? Will I have enough options to recycle the ball from the flanks?