Klopp-inspired Liverpool

[XaW]

Introduction / background

The reason I've chosen to write this topic is to challenge myself ahead of the release of FM18. I've played FM/CM for many years and have had great success, but I've always been the type of manager to get a tactic working well enough, and then getting in the players to work in it. I've never been the very tactical manager that can find a working tactic for any set of team or players. This is why I'm doing this, in order to challenge myself to become better at the tactical aspect.

I'm going to try to emulate Liverpool in the way Klopp are playing, or rather played last season. Now, what does this mean? Well, in my game Coutinho are going to be an offensive player and not play in the midfield. I'm going to try to get the gegenpress to work, and the balance between the controlled tire out the defense football and the rapid counterattacking football. I'm not expecting to be able to do this easily, but I'll give it a fair shot. I'm going to try to do this while at the same time actually winning matches in the game, so if something is possible, but ruins games, then I won't add it. The goal is to learn tactics FM-style.

If anyone have any inputs, think I'm way off, or have suggestions, feel free to help out. As I stated, I'm no tactical genius, but I'm trying to improve.

The tactical basis

I did a couple of basis tests to see how I could implement both the styles of Klopp in the same tactic, but failed miserably. So I've opted to make 2 tactics and switch on the fly depending on the flow of the game. The first one is a control tactic, this is used at the start of most game. The aim is to control the game and pass the ball around to tire out the opponents while looking for a through ball or a opportunity to score from a shot. The second one is a fast counterattacking tactic that is used when the opponents are more attacking and gives us more room. I'm switching between these tactics quite a bit, depending on how the opponent are playing. The tactics themselves are not very different and based of the same formation, but the results are pretty different the times I make the right calls to switch.

The control tactic

The tactic is based on how I view Liverpools base formation, the back 4, the 3 central midfielders and the 3 up top. As you can see, I've bought in Van Dijk, to improve the defense since it should have been done in real life, otherwise no other transfers.

Instructions:

I've pushed the defense up a bit higher and to play a bit wider to give a more dominant feeling. I've added retain possession to keep the ball in the team, the same for play out of defense and work ball into box. I'm also giving the team leave to be more expressive.

Goalkeeper:

I've added the instructions in order for him to get the ball in play fast and not kick it if possible.

Right back:

Clyne is a solid right back, but he don't contribute much attacking, so a Full Back on support would suit him. I've added the "Stay wide" instruction since he sometimes tucked in to narrow for some reason.

Ball playing defender:

Van Dijk is a great ballplaying defender, but Matip also works well in the role. Starts a lot of attacks, but don't venture too far forward to leave gaps.

Central defender:

Probably the most vanilla role in the team. Stay back and give the ball to a more suitable player. I tried to make him a stopper to emulate how Lovren plays, but it left way too many gaps for the opponent to use, so I've left it.

Left back:

Moreno is a much more attacking back so his role is a wing back on attack. I want him to keep the width on the left and bomb up and down the touchline all game. I've added the stay wider to keep him out there and shoot less since he started to shoot from all over the place.

Half back;

Henderson is set up as a halfback. To drop down between the defenders and to recycle possession. Shoot less was added since he started to shoot pretty much every time he had the ball.

Ballwinning midfielder:

The position Emre Can was born to play. His job is to hassle the opponents and support the attacking players. Shoot less often to reduce the way too many long shots.

Box-to-box midfielder:

For the moment Lallana is the one playing here. His job is to contribute in all aspects of play. I've told him to shoot less, but at the same time move into channels to disrupt the defense.

Right winger:

Mane is great at attacking, so his job is to dribble and cause havock. I've tried to get him to mark tighter to get him to help out defensively, but I'm not sure it helps. One of the open issues at the moment.

Advanced playmaker:

I want Coutinho to be a playmaker and to cut inside. This is one of the open issues I have. I've tried him as an Inside Forward and have been tweaking him a bit to get him to work as intended, but no such luck yet.

False nine:

I want Bobby to be a linkup striker, so a False Nine seems correct. I've told him to roam around as he does and he works pretty well.

[XaW]

The counterattacking tactic

The same formation and mostly the same roles as the controlling one. Coutinho are an Inside Forward here.

Instructions

Here I've told the players to sit a bit deeper, but still wide. The tempo is higher and we have a bit more direct passing. We are running at the defense and the players can roam more. Also, we close down a bit more.

All the player roles are exactly the same as the controlling one, except for Coutinho who now have this role:

[XaW]

What works?

Well, we are playing pretty well, and are winning matches. The defense is actually more solid than Liverpool in real life, though the defenders are still often one on one with attackers and we are sometimes caught by that. Still, that's not an issue as this is how Liverpool play. The 3 central midfielders are playing pretty much as I want them. Emre Can in particular are doing everything I want him to. Mane is also running at the defense and creating havoc.

The matches that haven't been won are away to Bournemouth, away to Hull and away to Arsenal. Bournemouth had 2 chances and scored on both while we were wasteful. Hull built a wall and we just couldn't break them down. Away at Arsenal Emre Can got an early red card so we were pretty much out of it from the start.

What don't work?

Long shots, long shots and even more long shots. I've told the central midfielders and Moreno to shoot less. This is because almost every attack ended in a long shot. With those instructions we are seeing much more of the play I want, but still way to many long shots. Here I would gladly take in some advice. I've been thinking that Firmino are trying to use the same space as Coutinho and Lallana, but in play that don't seems to happen. What happens is mostly that players decide to shoot even though there are very suitable passing options available, so I'm not sure here.

To few clear cut chances. At least according to the stats in-game. We are creating a lot of half chances and score on very many of them, but few CCC's according to the game. I'm not sure how worried I should be about this since we are winning, but I'm not getting the super dominant feeling I was looking for.

Gegenpress is hard to do! I'm not sure if it's possible or not to get the gegenpress to work in FM. It seems to be working at times, but other times we just don't close down as I want the players to do. Anyone manage to replicate this? I'm looking for advise here.

[XaW]

Further results and small changes

I kept on playing and this are the next results. For all non-win matches:

- Lost to Chelsea at home. Conte showed his true Italian and robbed all 3 points of us with a single counterattack late in the game.
- Lost to Tottenham in the EFL-cup. Lost on pens with a mostly reserves side. No issue.
- Draw away to Middlesbrough. They played a 4-5-1 with two holding midfielder. We couldn't break them down.
- Drew away to West Brom. A poor match from us, though they scored on their only 2 shots on goal.
- Loss away to Man Utd. They scored after just 10 minutes from a free kick, then the rest after set pieces as we trailed. A new issue becomes clear.
- Draw away to Sunderland. Only one shot on goal from the home team, but we struggled to break them down.

This shows two flaws in this tactic.

1. We are lacking a comeback mechanism against strong teams. When we fell behind to Chelsea and United we lacked chances to get back into the game. I don't quite know how to change this so help would be appretiated.
2. We are struggling to break through very defensive teams, especially away from home. It's clear we don't manage to break down teams as well as I had hoped. I feel this can be linked to my issue with getting Coutinho to work as his creativity could be the key to break through. Still searching for the solution.

Attempted changes

I've tried to play the striker as a Complete Forward - Attack. This have given us a bit more offensive presence, and given a bit less long shots, but still not solved the issue. Thoughts?

[IscoDisco]

You are using a halfback which means he is going to sit between the defenders and your WB's are on the same level as your center backs so you are basically playing a 5 at the back with 3 players playing in a very tight space. Set your WB's on the same level as the halfback and your WB's will provide much more width to play the ball around and you still have 3 players at the back. Against a single striker you can use the Regista against weaker opponents, this will keep your advantage against the striker - 2v1 - and the regista will help the attack. This gives you a extra option upfront to break down teams. Retain possession also restrict your players freedom. They will look for the easy side pass instead of a attacking pass with more risk. 

[XaW]

5 minutes ago, IscoDisco said:

You are using a halfback which means he is going to sit between the defenders and your WB's are on the same level as your center backs so you are basically playing a 5 at the back with 3 players playing in a very tight space. Set your WB's on the same level as the halfback and your WB's will provide much more width to play the ball around and you still have 3 players at the back. Against a single striker you can use the Regista against weaker opponents, this will keep your advantage against the striker - 2v1 - aand the regista will help the attack. This gives you a extra option upfront to break down teams. Retain possession also restrict your players freedom. They will look for the easy side pass instead of a attacking pass with more risk. 

Are you sure about the wing backs? I'm already seeing the opponents trying to use the space behind my fullbacks. Won't that be even worse if I pushed them further up the field?

Good suggestion using a regista against weaker teams, I'll give it a go. Same with retain possession. I'll make a version with those changes to see how we fare against the weaker teams.

[IscoDisco]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

Are you sure about the wing backs? I'm already seeing the opponents trying to use the space behind my fullbacks. Won't that be even worse if I pushed them further up the field?

Good suggestion using a regista against weaker teams, I'll give it a go. Same with retain possession. I'll make a version with those changes to see how we fare against the weaker teams.

When the halfback drops between the centerbacks and the WB's are on the same level as the DM spot, your defenders will drift wide in to the WB's position on CB level. They should be covering the space behind your WB's/FB's. 

[XaW]

Further results and new changes

I changed the half back to a regista and removed the retain possession (as suggested by @IscoDisco) after the Leicester match, and the results have been great. We lost away to Man City, but it was a close match and they got a dubious pen by the ref late on to win it.

The tactic seems to be working as I hoped, though we still are lacking the gegenpress, and Coutinho are underwhelming on the left. So any hints for improving those aspects get thanks a plenty.

[yonko]

3 hours ago, IscoDisco said:

When the halfback drops between the centerbacks and the WB's are on the same level as the DM spot, your defenders will drift wide in to the WB's position on CB level. They should be covering the space behind your WB's/FB's. 

This occurs only with the ball during build up in defense. Without the ball is a different story. The CBs do not cover for the WBs without the ball. When in possession, the HB moves into midfield when in opponents' half.

[yonko]

3 hours ago, XaW said:

1. We are lacking a comeback mechanism against strong teams. When we fell behind to Chelsea and United we lacked chances to get back into the game. I don't quite know how to change this so help would be appretiated.
2. We are struggling to break through very defensive teams, especially away from home. It's clear we don't manage to break down teams as well as I had hoped. I feel this can be linked to my issue with getting Coutinho to work as his creativity could be the key to break through. Still searching for the solution.

Attempted changes

I've tried to play the striker as a Complete Forward - Attack. This have given us a bit more offensive presence, and given a bit less long shots, but still not solved the issue. Thoughts?

Against defensive teams, you should try more patient approach. Drop mentality to Standard, add even more width, add roaming, use the most closing down setting. Consider changing some roles:

HB to DLP-S

BWM to BBM

BBM to CM-A

F9 to CF-S (if opponents use formation with 1 or 2 DM)

This can also be useful when you fall behind against teams like Chelsea and Man United, because at some point they become defensive to protect the lead.

[XaW]

Final results

The rest of the season went pretty well. The loss away to Chelsea was a tough match. Away to Palace we played pretty much one of the worst games this season, but got a single point. The last non-win was away to Spurs who had Kane in blistering form, so a draw was pretty ok there. We ended with winning the PL and the FA Cup, so a very good season playing a Kloppish football.

I'm going to experiment a bit further with the suggestions from @yonko next season. Thanks for the help guys!

[yonko]

You still won the league, so you should be pretty happy. Looks like your defense is much more solid than Klopp's IRL. 

[XaW]

28 minutes ago, yonko said:

You still won the league, so you should be pretty happy. Looks like your defense is much more solid than Klopp's IRL. 

Yeah, I'm very happy with the tactic so far. Still, this is a learning experience for me, so I want to experiment a bit. I bought Van Dijk, just as Klopp should have done. That will fix every defensive issues at Liverpool IRL.... 

[yonko]

4 hours ago, XaW said:

Yeah, I'm very happy with the tactic so far. Still, this is a learning experience for me, so I want to experiment a bit. I bought Van Dijk, just as Klopp should have done. That will fix every defensive issues at Liverpool IRL.... 

I don't rate Van Dijk that highly - both on FM and IRL.

[BillHoudini24]

I had great results with Coutinho as a left Wide Midfielder on Attack Duty with individual instructions:

-Cut Inside

-Sit Narrower

-Dribble More

On my test save with this tactic he averaged 7.70 and he had 6 goals and 7 assists in 14 games.

Your tactical thinking is very interesting, great thread.

[XaW]

I've continued a bit into the next season and I decided to keep the tactic from the end of the last season and just use it as is to see if better players are the reason I had some small issues. This are the results at the start of the new season:

The loss away to City was a tough one, but Griezmann had an amazing game and those games happens sometimes. For the away game at Everton we just couldn't break down the wall they built. All my offensive players had a day off, and we had issues.

Other than that we have been very solid defensively, and rarely concedes goals. I have avoided to do anything towards the end of matches to see how the tactic works when the opponents change their play, and so far it seems that we are dominant no matter how the opponents play, so that's pretty encouraging.

Coutinho are playing much better this season and are showing more and more of the way I want him to play. I guess it helps when the other players around him are playing better.

I'm still looking for more assists from him, but he is very often 3rd last on goals, so he is contributing much more than last season. Though, he's contribution is very inconsistent, it's either hit or miss it seems. He either plays 8.5 or above or 6.6 or below, so I'm looking at what he do in the good matches compared to the poor ones to see if I can change anything to get him more involved in the poorer matches.

[XaW]

56 minutes ago, BillHoudini24 said:

I had great results with Coutinho as a left Wide Midfielder on Attack Duty with individual instructions:

-Cut Inside

-Sit Narrower

-Dribble More

On my test save with this tactic he averaged 7.70 and he had 6 goals and 7 assists in 14 games.

Your tactical thinking is very interesting, great thread.

Thanks! I'm thinking about telling him to dribble more since he certainly have the skills to do it. He have had a better season so far than last year, but I still want more from him.

[Jakob8b]

Good work. How often are you using the counter attacking setup?

[XaW]

19 minutes ago, Jakob8b said:

Good work. How often are you using the counter attacking setup?

Thank you! Lately almost never. I've played it away against top teams at least if I'm in the lead and they are pushing for a goal.

[XaW]

Further thoughts

After playing this tactic for almost two seasons now, somethings become clearer. The most surprising thing is that the DM-role is the most important role to get wins. The change between a Regista or Half back can decide the outcome of the games. For very defensive formations like a flat 4-5-1, flat 5-4-1 or, the most defensive I've faced, 5-4-1 with two defensive midfielders, a Regista is much needed to support the two other midfielders. Otherwise they overload the midfield, and we struggle to break them down. However, against 4-2-3-1 wide playing with a Regista will most likely leave too much room in the middle for the opponents to exploit. By changing to a Half back against those formations the DM drop down deep enough to occupy the space so the opponent striker or AM cannot use it. So the choice between roles for the DM will decide many matches.

Examples of wrong use

This is a still from a game against Sunderland. I thought they were so defensive I made Henderson a Regista. As you can see above he goes well away from the defenders to chase down the ball and leaves a lot of room in between the defenders. Khazri plays a good ball through to a striker who scores.

In the second half the same happens again. Emre Can, who are now the DM are caught out of position and this time Borini send the same ball to Khazri. Now, the other defender should intercept, but he fails and Khazri scores alone with the goalkeeper.

Examples of good use

It's not as easy to find examples of it actually working, since we don't get the same throughballs down the center as in the examples above. But here you can see Henderson occupying the space close to Harry Kane to stop the attack from become dangerous.

This is a semi-success example. The attacking midfielder have joined the striker up top and it would be 2 strikers vs 2 defenders had not Henderson dropped deeper to pick up the run. He is a bit taken, but our other midfielders are putting on pressure to make sure the opponent cannot play a ball through until Henderson drops deep enough.

[XaW]

Now what does all this mean for our tactical approach?

I've gone over to using 3 different tactics. Two of whom are almost identical, only the role of the DM is either a Regista or a Half back. The last one is the counter attacking one who are rarely used unless I'm defending a close lead to a good team, or away to great teams.

Here is an example of how to use the counter attacking one:

Away to Real Madrid. I had lost 2-3 at home due to an amazing game from a certain Portuguese player. Even though we were trailing, we were still up against Real Madrid in Spain. They were going to attack. So I started with Counter to hit them on breaks when I could. It worked very good, but towards the end we were only 1-2 up and were heading out on away goals. Then I changed to the Half back version to try to control the game and see more of the ball. This seemingly took Real by surprise since we scored shortly after. Then it was back to the counter to see the game out.

Most of the games I fail to win are due to the fact that I pick the wrong one, or fail to change when I should. In some very rare cases it's down to players having a day of, but I'm building a squad to avoid that...

[jc577]

I'm a United fan so it pains me to say this but.. really enjoying this thread, good read  is your counter tactic the same as the one you posted earlier in the thread?

[XaW]

5 minutes ago, jc577 said:

I'm a United fan so it pains me to say this but.. really enjoying this thread, good read  is your counter tactic the same as the one you posted earlier in the thread?

Hehe, well, thanks for the kind words no matter you loyalty!

Yes, the counter tactic is the same as the one I posted above. Though, as I stated, I rarely use it much. Away to Real Madrid is one of the few matches I think I've ever started with it. I have had a couple of matches were lower ranked teams are pushing for goals towards the end and I've tried to use it a couple of times with success, but I haven't tried it enough to know if it it's the tactic or the players who are giving me extra goals from it.

I've used it the few times I've gotten red cards though, and removed the left winger. Seeing as the left back will bomb down the left hand anyway it should be the least needed role to keep the score as is.

[yonko]

My advice to is when using HB role at DM, pay attention to his closing down. He tends to do too much of that sometimes, so you may need to tell him to close down less and act more as Anchor.

[XaW]

Ok, I've tried the same formation and tactic in FM18, but it doesn't seem to work. While it is very defensively solid going on the offensive it's very tame and we don't get any touches inside the opponent's box. The striker also get very poor ratings, so I don't think CF-A is working here. I'm going to try to toy around with it, but I would like to get some feedback from the gurus here as to why it don't work in FM18, when it was good in FM17 and it isn't "ME exploiting" as far as I know, so I feel it should transfer.

I really struggle to create CCCs, and I keep the ball, but have the most shots though it is mostly long shots.

Lost 1-2 at home to West Brom.

0-0 at home to Chelsea (who have started very poor)

0-0 at home to Benfica (CL).

0-0 away to Stoke.

So I don't create chances and can't keep the ball. So.....help, I guess?

[Mitja]

ATTACKING mentality +  work the ball into the box ( + shorter+ higher tempo+ more risky passes).

you are Liverpool, attacking mentality and higher tempo is what you need especially if you want to play like Klopp. it's all about quick transitions. work into box for patient aproach around and inside the box. and I would use both FBs on attack duty. 

[hawkgg]

It will be interesting to see how Liverpool will play in real life when Lallana, Mane, Salah, Coutinho are all fit. In game would try Mane and Salah as inside forwards, with Coutinho as a roaming/advanced playmaker and Lallana as a mezzala. How would you set up?

[XaW]

Well, I thought it was time to do this again and see if the tactic from FM17 would replicate in FM18 now that I've had some playing around with the game. Here is my findings so far:

I tried to make the exact same as I had in the introduction posts of this thread and it worked quite well, but not as good as I had hoped. The first season was a success however, as we won the league 3 points ahead of Man Utd and only lost the CL final on pens to Juventus. Into the second season I brought in some better players and did some small tweaks to the tactic and now it has worked like a charm. The latest results are simply amazing:

Especially defensively we are just great. Only conceded 4 goals conceded in the last 17 games. 

The tactic

As you can see the roles and setup is very close to what I had from the start, expect I switched out the box-to-box midfielder with a central midfielder - attack. I did this since the striker would sometimes be a bit too isolated from the rest of the team and as a CM-A he would support the striker better than earlier. For the most part I use this formation, but makes certain small changes if we are struggling to get space. As the results screenshot show, we drew a couple of 0-0s, so I still have some small possibilities of improving it, though I'd hate to ruin the defensive stability we currently have. Feel free to come with any and all comments and questions.

[anorthernboy]

Did you make any changes to the shouts and mentality?

[XaW]

9 hours ago, anorthernboy said:

Did you make any changes to the shouts and mentality?

No, exactly the same as the one above expect the role of the CM-A (Who have gotten the instruction to "move into channels", I forgot to add). I do have much better players, but I'm still only half way into the second season. I rarely use shouts in matches, but a slight "concentrate" if we are holdning on to a lead in the dying minutes of a game is one of the few I use every now and then.

I do make slight adjustments in matches if we are not playing quite as well I expect. If my opponent isn't looking to counter or exploit the room we leave I sometimes allow the right back to move further ahead. If we are looking like we can be caught on the counter I sometimes makes the DM into a Halfback to provide more security in the back. It all comes down to how I feel the match is played out. I also have a very specific player group for this, so I can't say for certain this will work on another group of players. Feel free to let me know though. This is much a learning process for me, still.