Football Manager 2019 Feature Blogs: Revamped Tactics Module

[shirajzl]

1 hour ago, RBKalle said:

I'm not concerned about replicability, but more about Instruction A means A in the ME, and not A1, A-with-modifiers, or A-only-if-you-also-picked-5-extra-options (that may or may not make sense in context).

Right there is the biggest FM problem when it comes to tactics and has been for years.

When you watch/read guys like Rashidi, the first thing that comes to mind is "wow, how the f*ck was I supposed to figure that out".

[Lucas]

6 minutes ago, shirajzl said:

Right there is the biggest FM problem when it comes to tactics and has been for years.

When you watch/read guys like Rashidi, the first thing that comes to mind is "wow, how the f*ck was I supposed to figure that out".

Miss the days when things like this just came down to user's problem solving skills. I don't think the tactics is that difficult to understand & use, once you grasp some of the concepts/roles that are not exactly plain english to understand (even these you don't need to use, and many people actually don't)

[shirajzl]

1 minute ago, Lucas said:

Miss the days when things like this just came down to user's problem solving skills. I don't think the tactics is that difficult to understand & use, once you grasp some of the concepts that are not exactly plain english to understand.

I partially agree. In theory you're right, but sometimes you pick instructions according to their in-game descriptions hoping to play one way, only to see something entirely different on the pitch. Then you go to forums for help only to find out that your instructions are fine, but only if you couple them with A, which ties into B, with a knock-on effect on C. It can be very baffling, especially for an average player.

[Lucas]

9 minutes ago, shirajzl said:

Then you go to forums for help only to find out that your instructions are fine, but only if you couple them with A, which ties into B, with a knock-on effect on C. It can be very baffling, especially for an average player.

But the flipside is you're reducing the game to battle card mechanics, and you lose a lot of depth in doing so. It would get simple and boring fast  

It can be confusing I can understand that, but it's a simulation, not really a pick up and play experience. There needs to be some variation and not have it to be a robotic experience otherwise you quickly end up with an experience where you win every single game because you've found the right combination and the game responds in the same way every single time.

Hopefully the tutorials go a way to helping people with tactics and make things easier, while still offering the complexity and depth for people to create their own philosophies.

[shirajzl]

1 minute ago, Lucas said:

But the flipside is you're reducing the game to battle card mechanics, and you lose a lot of depth in doing so. It would get simple and boring fast  

It can be confusing I can understand that, but it's a simulation, not really a pick up and play experience. There needs to be some variation and not have it to be a robotic experience otherwise you quickly end up with an experience where you win every single game because you've found the right combination and the game responds in the same way every single time.

Hopefully the tutorials go a way to helping people with tactics and make things easier, while still offering the complexity and depth for people to create their own philosophies.

Yes, balance is one of the most difficult things to achieve in life, whether we talk FM tactics or how much junk food and alcohol you can stuff down your throat without damaging yourself long term.

[kingking]

On 30/09/2018 at 19:55, shirajzl said:

Right there is the biggest FM problem when it comes to tactics and has been for years.

When you watch/read guys like Rashidi, the first thing that comes to mind is "wow, how the f*ck was I supposed to figure that out".

I enjoy the fact that instructions conflict and cancel each other out, it has never been a problem but it is just shows how realistic, in depth and how accurate the game is. 

I don't see it as problem or an issue or a bug. just a problem solving game

On 30/09/2018 at 20:14, Lucas said:

But the flipside is you're reducing the game to battle card mechanics, and you lose a lot of depth in doing so. It would get simple and boring fast  

It can be confusing I can understand that, but it's a simulation, not really a pick up and play experience. There needs to be some variation and not have it to be a robotic experience otherwise you quickly end up with an experience where you win every single game because you've found the right combination and the game responds in the same way every single time.

Hopefully the tutorials go a way to helping people with tactics and make things easier, while still offering the complexity and depth for people to create their own philosophies.

I love the balance FM creates with complexity and depth. There is the depth, freedom, complexity and problem solving nature to create your own tactic  and have a possiblity to mess up, but the help that FM provides through guides to replicate real life tactics

the introduction of tactic styles is a guide to help solve this puzzle which is a good thing and keeps people from being frustrated from the fact that "instructions cancel out" and "my team isn't playing how they want to play"

The Tik Taka tactic style should help those people who cannot replicate it using player and team instructions themselves 

Every puzzle has guides, tutorials and help.

I love how complex and in-depth FM is and the addition of counter-attacking/hold-shape and counter-press/regroup means that we can now create tactics that are more in-depth and replicate real life situations

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TWixFP1ryXY?start=98" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Edited October 7, 2018 by kingking

[Weston]

10 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Miss the days when things like this just came down to user's problem solving skills. I don't think the tactics is that difficult to understand & use, once you grasp some of the concepts/roles that are not exactly plain english to understand (even these you don't need to use, and many people actually don't)

I consider myself a fairly good FM player - I try to make the game as realistic/hard on myself as possible and still got from Serie C to the Champions League final in five seasons on FM18 (not with the same team) - and I'm still frequently baffled by tactics and their relationship to player roles and the ME.

I feel like I'm very good at building squads and getting the best out of my players and finding the right players and roles to fit together, but I still struggle to understand certain things that could perhaps be clearer. For example, I had my team playing a 4-3-2-1 xmas tree, and the team was doing terribly, so I switched to a 4-1-2-1-2 narrow diamond, and won the league. Why? Nothing else changed. I still have no idea.

It makes me wonder if I'm just very naive about certain aspects of the game like interpreting results and adjusting based on them, or if the game leans on the, admittedly realistic, variable of pure randomness a bit too heavily at times.

[HUNT3R]

51 minutes ago, Alekos said:

Please can someone from SI inform us if we will be able to switch tactics in attack-transition and defensive phase?For example 4-3-3 while attacking can be converted to 4-2-3-1 while defending?

Roles and duties will decide this.

[themadsheep2001]

47 minutes ago, shirajzl said:

Right there is the biggest FM problem when it comes to tactics and has been for years.

When you watch/read guys like Rashidi, the first thing that comes to mind is "wow, how the f*ck was I supposed to figure that out".

Watching the game. Honestly, that's what it comes down to. I have these conversation with Cleon all the time, and he's genuinely bemused by how people think he's got these special powers, or its inside knowledge. He simply watches the match, or the incident, or rewatches if he needs to. There are defintely things that could be clearer, but people make it so much more difficult for themselves as a general rule. The concepts have rarely changed over the years so once you have that core thinking down it's easy to adapt

I guarantee, with this release, even with the induction, and all the templates, you'll get the exact same complaints

[HUNT3R]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Watching the game.

That's exactly how I learned. Full matches to see what instructions do and how everything interacts.

[Svenc]

3 hours ago, RBKalle said:

I want to play awful hoof and run 80s Third Division football? I want to be able to do so without needing to read one of the essays about wide play. It's a basic tactic, not rocket science.

Tbf, the UI has been very straight forward on this in particular (and it hasn't been in every area, mind). Pick a top heavy formation so that there are actually player up top, perhaps even a target man upfront, go for the "go route one" instruction, pretty much solved. The vice versa for shortish passing applies also. You may not like fully what you witness, but that may be SI having a different thing in mind rather than you -- plus, there's development shifts. Up to FM2012ish the difference between direct and short play wasn't near as pronounced. Even with the oldschool sliders all tweaked to extreme ends, balls lumped forward bypassing the midfield were a comparably rarity to what's in nowadays. Speaking about that delicate area of subjectivty: Curiously, you regularly see the opposite complaints -- e.g. why do players always lump it forward despite there being options?  With "styles" being a thing in the new UI, that is a line of on-going development that needs to progress for those styles to actually visually shine through further.

Where it's getting more complicated are the second to second micro levels, rather than the bigger picture (tweaking at which point the team starts to retreat, closing down, etc. etc.). Perhaps, to an extent, that's done on purpose. The AI managers will never be able to actually "analyze" and micro tweak play. It's AI. Neither will it, to use that quote, "creatively" use tools that are given, perhaps in a way that wasn't even anticipated by SI. Additionally, it is debatable to an extent over how much control a manager has over the second by second play. Once you could "game" and "control" the thing like Neo does the Matrix (whilst the opposition would be more like somebody trying to play Mario Bros 2 with his feet), neither would it replicate football management, nor would it be a particularly engaging game to play, at least not in the longer term. Oldschool memories of Anco's Player Manager, etc. where you could rig and repeat every attack into the same passage of play that would almost always guarantee a goal was scored at the end of it.

Rashidi is a tricky example for this btw. And not because he's a bad guy, mind! There was a video of his where he teamed up with some of SI's staff. The difference in how they both play the game "tactically" was, interesting, to say the least.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Svenc

[kingking]

With the addition of the Counter/Hold-Shape and Pressing/Regroup feature and the 3 Phases of Play, i wonder how much more SI can go in depth to allow users to create real life tactics?

The new Counter/Hold-Shape and Pressing/Regroup feature should be in all football games, however it is the tactic feature games don't add despite how important it is in modern football for elite teams.

How much more in-depth can SI go to create realistic tactics now that they have added the Counter/hold-shape and Pressing/Regroup feature?

What else can SI add to the tactic UI to allow the User to create realistic tactics? now that it should be possible to replicate Tika-Taka or GegenPress

Edited September 30, 2018 by kingking

[Weston]

16 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Watching the game.

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

That's exactly how I learned. Full matches to see what instructions do and how everything interacts.

Out of curiosity, do you watch every single match on full? I feel like maybe I should do this more often but I only have so much time to play...

 

 

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Weston said:

Out of curiosity, do you watch every single match on full? I feel like maybe I should do this more often but I only have so much time to play...

 

 

I used to.

[westy8chimp]

1 hour ago, Lucas said:

Hopefully the tutorials go a way to helping people with tactics and make things easier, while still offering the complexity and depth for people to create their own philosophies.

Do we know yet how i depth the tutorials will be? I dont think the game will have tutorials on the playing styles, let alone the impact of each instruction/role. 

Which is fine, i agree with your sentiment that there has to be some level of working things out and applying the right logic that A and B have to be the right fit to achieve C. 

Thats why this community can be great... If you are struggling with a concept then ask in the tactic forum and you will get help. 

The issue is simply that some of descriptions are awful and misleading... I know @herne79 and a few of us have tried to point as many of these out as possible, so im hoping to see some improvements this year or next. Some of the renaming of roles amd mentalities already are more intuitive.

The other aspect is... It can feel like players ignore your instructions but isnt that part of football? Players arent machines, they will think for themselves... Some will be better than others at following instruction. 

This video from my Southampton can illustrate this. Its a simple 4141, standard flex. There are no playmaker or TM. Both wingers are wm(s) both full backs are wb(a) the only team instruction is look for overlap. To begin you see the wm on the left ignore the overlapping wb. At 8 seconds you see my wm on the right ignore a great run from the right wingback... Could log it as a bug, right?

But in the next game we have the ball in a similar position down the left and we use the overlap correctly (albeit that pesky Tadic still ignoring Cedric) 

 

It's very difficult if not impossible to fathom exactly why Tadic wont pass to Cedric when it seems on... But if i watch 90 mins id expect him to do it sometimes. More so than if i hadnt selected the TI and role/duty as i have. 

[themadsheep2001]

43 minutes ago, Weston said:

Out of curiosity, do you watch every single match on full? I feel like maybe I should do this more often but I only have so much time to play...

 

 

Comprehensive. Nothing less. When I had more time, or if i was really baffled by some build up I would watch segments in full.

Back in my uni days i definitely would watch some full matches. But was during the days of sliders

[herne79]

14 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

The other aspect is... It can feel like players ignore your instructions but isnt that part of football? Players arent machines, they will think for themselves...

I think this is an important point, simply because said instructions go by the name of "instruction". 

Taking things literally, an instruction is something you follow at all times.  But instructions in game are nothing more than tendencies.  "Instruct" a player to cut inside (for example) and he'll tend to choose to cut inside more often than not when the conditions are right - but he won't do it all of the time as the term "instruction" may have us believe.

[Armistice]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

That's exactly how I learned. Full matches to see what instructions do and how everything interacts.

It is a bit superficial to just watch the game and you will learn and I’m sure you will agree with me. Of course in some aspects you are right, you will see that your team is playing direct/short/route 1 most of the time like you instructed them to play but when that doesn’t happen or even more, when it leads to goals, you will sit there asking yourself what is wrong with your setup. It is more difficult to spot why your defence-midfield transition failed, was it because your DM has poor Passing or Composure or because there was no good passing option or because the opponent is pressing him and cutting the passing lanes or because he has a PPM that’s contrary to the style you want to implement or because it’s simply meant to happen.

 

I’ll add to this: the game is not helping the players too much the way it is right now. There are scout reports, analysis of the opponent teams, you watch their games etc, but it is time consuming. If we’re going to spend 10-15 minutes to analyse every game it’s going to kill the fun imo, I don’t like nor want to be spoon fed, but I believe there should be more hints in the game report or maybe Assistant advises that tells you why your TIs are not working when it’s the case. I know it’s probably impossible to have the AI “guess” what style a human wants to implement and give contextual advice, but if we’re to watch on Extended and not full, would be handy if the Assistant would say “The opponent is pressing our defence” or “The opponent’s back four is hardly tested by us” rather than the “We’re being overrun in midfield” despite having 70% possession and using 4-4-2 Diamond.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Armistice

[yonko]

I think people should think of the playing styles kind of similar to player roles. They are presets and they are given names that we can associate with something. Just because you select Gegenpressing or Tiki-Taka it doesn't mean that your team will play exactly like Klopp's or Pep's. Nor it will mean that FM19 or its ME will be a failure. A simulation game can never replicate fully either style as IRL.

It looks like we have been given more tools to work with and we have to see how they work in the ME. But if people are having hard time in FM18, don't expect it to be easier in FM19. Coaching is observing, analyzing and correcting. That's IRL and in the game. You can't breeze through it. 

As long as the tactical innovations work in the ME, I will be happy. Hopefully SI also tweaked a few existing tools to work better as well. We will see.

[Weston]

47 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

The other aspect is... It can feel like players ignore your instructions but isnt that part of football? Players arent machines, they will think for themselves... Some will be better than others at following instruction. 

 

25 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I think this is an important point, simply because said instructions go by the name of "instruction". 

Taking things literally, an instruction is something you follow at all times.  But instructions in game are nothing more than tendencies.  "Instruct" a player to cut inside (for example) and he'll tend to choose to cut inside more often than not when the conditions are right - but he won't do it all of the time as the term "instruction" may have us believe.

Is it for sure coded into the ME that certain players are better at following instructions than others and may or may not be more likely to deviate from your set tactics? What is the conventional wisdom on what player attributes etc. make them more inclined to follow team instructions if so? Teamwork, professionalism, intelligence?

[Svenc]

7 hours ago, shirajzl said:

Yup, I fully expect LOADS of rants "I want to play like Klopp, I picked the right tactical options and still can't win, the ME is broken".

That's illogical -- why should be "playing like Klopp" be an inherent winning formula? But kind of a good shout too. It's happened in the past when the TC was introduced too. Players realized they couldn't get their bad teams to win-win-win, but actually saw them lose a few matches in a row (they're bad teams, after all), and concluded the TC must be broken.

Speaking about AI, I'm curious how the "styles" will impact their dynamic match management. Similar as in real football, Barcelona may try to see out the remainder of a game a bit differently to Stoke. Whilst Barcelona may simply play keep-ball and let the opposition not have much of a chance anymore to get back into the game; a less technical style may try to do the same a bit differently. In general, everybody expecting these to be some kind of "winning formula" is going to be 100% disappointed though guaranteed. The more immediate benefits may be actually the AI and the broader range of football it plays. It's always struggled with some basics on that front and has always needed such defined "styles" -- it's AI after all. AI can't actually figure stuff out for itself. In SI's eyes, if nobody complains about Barcelona regularly having possession figures of far less than 60% anymore, half the thing may be already judged a success story.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Svenc

[westy8chimp]

3 minutes ago, Weston said:

 

Is it for sure coded into the ME that certain players are better at following instructions than others and may or may not be more likely to deviate from your set tactics? What is the conventional wisdom on what player attributes etc. make them more inclined to follow team instructions if so? Teamwork, professionalism, intelligence?

So many things it could be. Id reckon deicisons, flair and mostly ppms would impact on attacking players following instructions. 

But even before that...the complex ME code will only put in a factor against each instruction. So even if you have the perfect players... You arent going to see a right midfielder always pass to an overlapping wing back... Or other. 

 

[herne79]

2 minutes ago, Weston said:

 

Is it for sure coded into the ME that certain players are better at following instructions than others and may or may not be more likely to deviate from your set tactics? What is the conventional wisdom on what player attributes etc. make them more inclined to follow team instructions if so? Teamwork, professionalism, intelligence?

Yup 100% otherwise we'd field teams of robots.

Attributes such as Teamwork and Decisions will play a part but an equally large part (arguably larger) is something so often overlooked - their hidden attributes such as Consistency, Big Matches and Pressure.  (They're actually not that hidden as you can read about them in a player's coach report).

You can have the best looking player in the world going by his visible attributes, but if his coach report says he's Mr Inconsistent, doesn't like Big Matches and wilts at the first hint of a little pressure he won't be able to apply those great attributes to your tactical instructions with any regularity.

[kingking]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

That's illogical -- why should be "playing like Klopp" be an inherent winning formula? But kind of a good shout too. It's happened in the past when the TC was introduced too. Players realized they couldn't get their bad teams to win-win-win, but actually saw them lose a few matches in a row (they're bad teams, after all), and concluded the TC must be broken.

Speaking about AI, I'm curious how the "styles" will impact their dynamic match management. Similar as in real football, Barcelona may try to see out the remainder of a game a bit differently to Stoke. Whilst Barcelona may simply play keep-ball and let the opposition not have much of a chance anymore to get back into the game; a less technical style may try to do the same a bit differently. In general, everybody expecting these to be some kind of "winning formula" is going to be 100% disappointed though guaranteed. The more immediate benefits may be actually the AI and the broader range of football it plays. It's always struggled with some basics on that front and has always needed such defined "styles" -- it's AI after all. AI can't actually figure stuff out for itself. In SI's eyes, if nobody complains about Barcelona regularly having possession figures of far less than 60% anymore, half the thing may be already judged a success story.

Yeah Tactical Styles help A.I to choose tactics that reflect real life such as Tika Taka and Gengen.

We need to think of ways to improve the A.I and Tactical Styles is one of them.

Edited September 30, 2018 by kingking

[masno]

5 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

That's exactly how I learned. Full matches to see what instructions do and how everything interacts.

The problem with watching full matches and see how everything goes is that not everyone have the time to do it. Normally,I have 3 hours every 2 weeks to play the game, I like to do great analysis of my squad off the field, do some scouts to grab some wonderkids and make my tactic with what the TC gave me. I don't want to grab instruction A, and go to a full match to see if it actually do A, or A with B, but don't have effect if I use C.

[HUNT3R]

8 hours ago, Armistice said:

It is a bit superficial to just watch the game and you will learn and I’m sure you will agree with me. Of course in some aspects you are right, you will see that your team is playing direct/short/route 1 most of the time like you instructed them to play but when that doesn’t happen or even more, when it leads to goals, you will sit there asking yourself what is wrong with your setup. It is more difficult to spot why your defence-midfield transition failed, was it because your DM has poor Passing or Composure or because there was no good passing option or because the opponent is pressing him and cutting the passing lanes or because he has a PPM that’s contrary to the style you want to implement or because it’s simply meant to happen.

I didn't just watch a game. I spent a real life year playing FM14, watching most matches in full while also reading up on real life tactical analysis of matches. I didn't need to spend quite that much time doing it, but I enjoyed watching the matches anyway. I also didn't venture into the tactics forum, so didn't have that help either. Guys like Cleon and Rashidi make it a lot easier for people with their guides and videos.

You also don't just look at one move. One move can possibly show you a weakness, but you need to find if it's a pattern. I picked up on patterns like my fullback always getting beaten or their AMC consistently finding space between the lines, etc.

When we did the SI Sports Centre analysis a couple of years back, it was interesting to see that quite a lot of people who didn't rate themselves WERE able to pick up on a lot of things and issues. Even if some were fairly simple, they were still issues to be corrected and something that was spotted. I thought my own attempt an analysis was good, but @Cleon was able to spot things that a) I would have never spotted and b) wouldn't have known to look for! So while some are clearly better at seeing things (like he noticed so easily whether the D-Line was high or deep), almost all of us can at least spot some issues. Cleon being able to spot those finer details shows me why he can do much better than I can, even though I consistently over-achieve myself, I am just not at that level. @Rashidi as well. He's light years ahead of me when it comes to transitions, setting them up, spotting them, diagnosing them etc. That leaves me to either be happy where I am or I will need to put some effort into noticing the differences so that I can much more easily spot them in future.

Even though I did spend a lot of time watching matches and sometimes even pausing the match to see if there are passing options etc, I don't have to spend that much time anymore. I'm able to pick up on issues quite quickly now and at worst, if I have a bad spell, I need to watch 10-15mins of a match in full to find at least 1 issue. I still watch matches on Comprehensive, though I don't really need to anymore. I do it because I enjoy watching my team and my players. I certainly don't need to watch 10-15 mins of every match in full, like you mentioned in the 2nd part of your post. In my case, I cannot read stats well enough to rely on those alone. I rely on what I see on the pitch rather than numbers. Other people do it the other way around.

 

[HUNT3R]

3 hours ago, masno said:

The problem with watching full matches and see how everything goes is that not everyone have the time to do it. Normally,I have 3 hours every 2 weeks to play the game, I like to do great analysis of my squad off the field, do some scouts to grab some wonderkids and make my tactic with what the TC gave me. I don't want to grab instruction A, and go to a full match to see if it actually do A, or A with B, but don't have effect if I use C.

Of course, but that's more your problem than FM's. If you don't have the time to analyse issues in matches, that's fine, but you will need to accept that. More than likely you will have issues with a tactic and you'll need to accept that it's most likely going to go unnoticed. I don't think anyone sets up a perfect tactic first time round ( I certainly don't ) so at the start, I do need to put some time into fine tuning the tactic. Once it's tweaked, it shouldn't need a lot of attention at all.

In your case, with the tutorials and setting up tactical play styles, it looks like you'll benefit from at least starting with a decent base tactic. Even then though, it's going to need to be checked. Big difference between setting up a decent, realistic base tactic and something that's just plug and play.

[masno]

9 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Of course, but that's more your problem than FM's. If you don't have the time to analyse issues in matches, that's fine, but you will need to accept that. More than likely you will have issues with a tactic and you'll need to accept that it's most likely going to go unnoticed. I don't think anyone sets up a perfect tactic first time round ( I certainly don't ) so at the start, I do need to put some time into fine tuning the tactic. Once it's tweaked, it shouldn't need a lot of attention at all.

In your case, with the tutorials and setting up tactical play styles, it looks like you'll benefit from at least starting with a decent base tactic. Even then though, it's going to need to be checked. Big difference between setting up a decent, realistic base tactic and something that's just plug and play.

The thing is, I already play this game for enough time to know the hidden stuff in instructions, I read all the guides in this forum to know this little tricks, and there is plenty to know yet, but the average player base don't. I was in a community that half of it didn't know that your formation is close to your defensive formation,and the roles are your attacking formation, this are stuff that aren't clear in FM18, like counter mentality, that is basically more cautious decisions(hurray for the new name), so people step in the game,grab a tactic that find logic by the names, but got their arse kicked because the names aren't really what are write in there. Hope that in this year with the induction system new players can have a good time playing the game, because my first time long time ago was terrible, believe me.

[Svenc]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

If you don't have the time to analyse issues in matches, that's fine, but you will need to accept that. More than likely you will have issues with a tactic and you'll need to accept that it's most likely going to go unnoticed.

This is a non-issue as AI is incapable of "spotting issues". It always will be. That's something that the tactical community should communicate more straight off the bat. I think that's oft forgotten. Investing more time as of FM is a bonus point on that area, but no requirement. No less as each match is also one of better and worse football players.

I also must repeat that the likes of Rashidi are special cases. Firstly, we're talking a level of dedication where things are run through a hundred times. This is a computer code. Inevitably, there will be all kinds of repeat patterns (which football doesn't have). Additionally, as more recent ME issues threads show, the gap between "exploiting AI/ME weakness" and tactical cleverness can be fairly thin. And naturally, be a bit subjective. Rashidi's scramjet and Cleon's past creations were pretty much engine breakers. They may view things from slightly different angles due to their playing past. In a sense, whilst they're all great guys, threads in the tactical forum can be almost just as "guilty" as giving players the impression that the game was 100% about tactics as the download sections. Get it "right", and you will be flying over the moon -- get it "wrong", and you'll suffer loads. Both with the exact same players.

I didn't understand at this time why SI at one point chose to promote more light-hearted stuff. Actually, I was hugely concerned. But I think I do now.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Svenc

[kingking]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

Of course, but that's more your problem than FM's. If you don't have the time to analyse issues in matches, that's fine, but you will need to accept that. More than likely you will have issues with a tactic and you'll need to accept that it's most likely going to go unnoticed. I don't think anyone sets up a perfect tactic first time round ( I certainly don't ) so at the start, I do need to put some time into fine tuning the tactic. Once it's tweaked, it shouldn't need a lot of attention at all.

In your case, with the tutorials and setting up tactical play styles, it looks like you'll benefit from at least starting with a decent base tactic. Even then though, it's going to need to be checked. Big difference between setting up a decent, realistic base tactic and something that's just plug and play.

 

18 minutes ago, Svenc said:

This is a non-issue as AI is incapable of "spotting issues". It always will be. That's something that the tactical community should communicate more straight off the bat. I think that's oft forgotten. Investing more time as of FM is a bonus point on that area, but no requirement. No less as each match is also one of better and worse football players.

I also must repeat that the likes of Rashidi are special cases. Firstly, we're talking a level of dedication where things are run through a hundred times. This is a computer code. Inevitably, there will be all kinds of repeat patterns (which football doesn't have). Additionally, as more recent ME issues threads show, the gap between "exploiting AI/ME weakness" and tactical cleverness can be fairly thin. And naturally, be a bit subjective. Rashidi's scramjet and Cleon's past creations were pretty much engine breakers. They may view things from slightly different angles due to their playing past. In a sense, whilst they're both great guys, threads in the tactical forum can be almost just as "guilty" as giving players the impression that the game was 100% about tactics as the download sections. Get it "right", and you will be flying over the moon -- get it "wrong", and you'll suffer loads. Both with the exact same players.

I didn't understand at this time why SI at one point chose to promote more light-hearted stuff. But I think I do now.

No one needs to watch a full match, Stats are just as important and tells everything.

Just learn to analyse team and player Stats for example you can understand how good a center midfielder played by their passing, movement, tackling and dribbling stats. It doesn't take too long and you don't have to watch the whole match

Read and analyse real match and player stats, also understand football terms and football concepts and ideas through real life coaching football guides

Edited October 1, 2018 by kingking

[Svenc]

5 minutes ago, kingking said:

Read and analyse real match and player stats, also understand football terms and football concepts and ideas through real life coaching football guides

Most of the things FM rewards as such "tactically" have been an integral part of any team sports, actually. They're, at heart, pretty basic.

[HUNT3R]

10 minutes ago, kingking said:

 

No one needs to watch a full match, Stats are just as important and tells everything.

Just learn to analyse team and player Stats for example you can understand how good a center midfielder played by their passing, movement, tackling and dribbling stats. It doesn't take too long and you don't have to watch the whole match

Read and analyse real match and player stats, also understand football terms and football concepts and ideas through real life coaching football guides

As I've posted, I agree :

 

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

I certainly don't need to watch 10-15 mins of every match in full, like you mentioned in the 2nd part of your post. In my case, I cannot read stats well enough to rely on those alone. I rely on what I see on the pitch rather than numbers. Other people do it the other way around.

I realise there are other ways of diagnosing issues. My way is to watch a match.

You can pick up that your midfielder is not completing enough passes by checking stats. You can see your fullback is losing out on tackles by checking the stats. The stats don't give you the context of HOW this happened, although the analysis tools can quickly help here. That's one way of doing it. I don't think I've used the analysis tools once in FM18, beyond just looking at what's new and different.

 

 

[pauly15]

Have the presets (tiki-taka etc) been linked to real ME development or is it just someone setting things up for you?

Edited October 1, 2018 by pauly15

[Guest]

I take it on faith that it has.

[kpsia518]

vertical tiki-taka,like this ?

 

 

[RBKalle]

3 ore fa, HUNT3R ha scritto:

Of course, but that's more your problem than FM's. If you don't have the time to analyse issues in matches, that's fine, but you will need to accept that. More than likely you will have issues with a tactic and you'll need to accept that it's most likely going to go unnoticed. I don't think anyone sets up a perfect tactic first time round ( I certainly don't ) so at the start, I do need to put some time into fine tuning the tactic. Once it's tweaked, it shouldn't need a lot of attention at all.

Even disregarding the fact "it's your problem" is a questionable cop-out answer, and, if the "you must watch full games to actually understand" were true it'd be a terrible business model from SI (imagine "you have to play 45mins halves to get the best out of FIFA/PES"), I think you're missing the point.

Users haven't been complaining about tactical minutiae that, indeed, would require watching many games in real-time to spot. People simply don't feel the ME replicates well enough the tactical setup, which is riddled with semantic inconsistencies, confusing or conflicting concepts and stuff that downright doesn't do what it says on the tin.

An apparently narrow tactic, with narrow/possession instructions can (and will) end up being a wide/direct one not because the user is an utter cretin who can't grasp basic football concepts (or a lazyass who don't even care about his tactic to sit through a full match simulation), but most likely because the overabundance of choices have given him a false impression of what he was choosing.

Team shape, mentality, formation, individual roles+duties, personal instructions and opposition instructions... it's SEVEN LAYERS of potentially tactic-breaking FM lingo people have to navigate through. And even when you keep it as simple as possible, hoping to get a decent approximation of a basic tactic, you'll end up with your 4-4-2 flat playing like something different. Last but not least, let's not forget the ME has its "overpowered" style which will overrule anything you may choose to a degree. Amateur teams will STILL play decent tiki-taka, or in FM18 the overpowered 4-2-3-1 wide (which has been THE tactic for ages already), while other solutions don't work as well or aren't even contemplated.

The funniest thing in this scenario is that, in the end, your best bet is to go with the flow and accept that some stuff works better, so why bothering with hours of painstaking analysis when all you need is a half-assed "Formation of the Year" and players good enough to win games by themselves?

 

2 ore fa, Svenc ha scritto:

This is a non-issue as AI is incapable of "spotting issues". It always will be. That's something that the tactical community should communicate more straight off the bat. I think that's oft forgotten. Investing more time as of FM is a bonus point on that area, but no requirement

But that'd go against the Tactical Gurus' best interest...

If you basically tell people "fine-tuning tactics isn't even remotely as important as you think and it's only about perfectionism and nitpicking", they'd lose a lot of their prestige, and their raison d'être...

[HUNT3R]

11 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

Even disregarding the fact "it's your problem" is a questionable cop-out answer, and, if the "you must watch full games to actually understand" were true it'd be a terrible business model from SI (imagine "you have to play 45mins halves to get the best out of FIFA/PES"), I think you're missing the point.

It's not close to a cop out answer. If you have 3 hours in 2 weeks only, it's going to be difficult to learn anything. It just is. If you already know what you're doing, it might not be too much of a problem, though there most likely won't be time to diagnose issues.

You can plug and play with little effort. You can set up a base tactic which should be okay, even more now with the tactical styles etc, again with little effort. You can watch matches if you want. You can watch stats if you want and just watch certain passages using the analysis. There are plenty of ways to play. That's the beauty of it.

If you do want to start diagnosing any issues, maybe to get your team to perform a little more consistently or improve against a certain formation etc, then some effort will be needed.

I could set up a base tactic and at the very least, I should be matching expectations. By doing some analysis, I always over-achieve. You don't even have to do it every match or even every second? Set up a base, watch it for a few minutes to make sure it does what you intended and then off you go. Maybe once a season you can check if things are still okay.

 

You're twisting both mine and Svenc's comments to mean something it doesn't.

 

[herne79]

So, that new revamped Tactics module - how about that then...?

[scass]

12 hours ago, herne79 said:

Yup 100% otherwise we'd field teams of robots.

Attributes such as Teamwork and Decisions will play a part but an equally large part (arguably larger) is something so often overlooked - their hidden attributes such as Consistency, Big Matches and Pressure.  (They're actually not that hidden as you can read about them in a player's coach report).

You can have the best looking player in the world going by his visible attributes, but if his coach report says he's Mr Inconsistent, doesn't like Big Matches and wilts at the first hint of a little pressure he won't be able to apply those great attributes to your tactical instructions with any regularity.

I agree - the important thing is recognising that there is a difference between managing a team, and controlling it. A lot of people expect the latter, which is a completely different ball game. It probably stems from a prevailing view in the real life game that managers are like chess grandmasters - Klopp, Guardiola and in a more negative way Mourinho are particularly regarded in this light. But ultimately Klopp's teams play the way they do not just because of the system but because he is adept at picking players who will flourish within that system.  There might be an argument that in FM, dynamics are a bit overemphasised in the current iteration, but that's a different story. You can't expect players to follow everything to the letter. That wouldn't be football management.

[thomas_e]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

So, that new revamped Tactics module - how about that then...?

Really looking forward to it! I think FM18 was a big step forward tactic/ME-engine wise, and the introduction of even more player roles in FM19 is a bonus! 

I just hope that there aren't too many big changes to the ME, as I personally think the ME at release the last couple of years have had a couple of big flaws I would expect to be dealt with during beta testing. 

[alian62]

23 minutes ago, thomas_e said:

Really looking forward to it! I think FM18 was a big step forward tactic/ME-engine wise, and the introduction of even more player roles in FM19 is a bonus! 

I just hope that there aren't too many big changes to the ME, as I personally think the ME at release the last couple of years have had a couple of big flaws I would expect to be dealt with during beta testing. 

Where as the ME was good the graphics were very poor . Stadiums , Grass textures , and the bug that been there since 3D started of a defender kicking a ball out for a corner for no reason . Found a lot of stuff missing that was in previous versions for some reason ? Tactics was better though .

[thomas_e]

16 minutes ago, prot651 said:

Where as the ME was good the graphics were very poor . Stadiums , Grass textures , and the bug that been there since 3D started of a defender kicking a ball out for a corner for no reason . Found a lot of stuff missing that was in previous versions for some reason ? Tactics was better though .

I agree, the graphics simply aren't good enough. I am sure SI agree. Compared to other games it is so far behind graphics wise. On the other hand, in-game depth and complexity, FM is probably the best game that there is (or for me at least!  ) .

I dont really feel that the graphics have taken any major steps forward. I am certainly not a software engineer, so I don't have any answers to this, but it's a bit strange that it hasn't gotten any further. FM is so far ahead of any other managerial simulation game and they will continue to be so. But I think graphics is something that needs to be dealt with. Not for me personally, but to attract younger players to get in to the world of FM, the world we all love so much. 

 

[jjtile]

3 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

You can plug and play with little effort. You can set up a base tactic which should be okay...

...I could set up a base tactic and at the very least, I should be matching expectations.

God, I really hope SI don’t see it this way. 

For many - myself included - setting up a base tactic and matching expectations isn’t little effort. It’s something that the rest of the game (coaching, transfers, squad management) is unfortunately gated behind.

In ten years, hundreds of hours in-game and hundreds of hours reading the forums, I’ve still never made it two seasons without being fired for failing to match board expectations.

I’m keeping all my fingers crossed that the the Tactical styles are going to essentially be a few dozen base tactics that you can choose, ensure your players’ attributes match up to, and then rarely need to think about again.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, jjtile said:

I’m keeping all my fingers crossed that the the Tactical styles are going to essentially be a few dozen base tactics that you can choose, ensure your players’ attributes match up to, and then rarely need to think about again.

That would be terrible for me, FM is IMO supposed to be a challenge with the tactical side being the toughest one in the game. If all I have to do to be successful is select a preset tactic & buy players to match I might as well just play fantasy football.

[HUNT3R]

7 minutes ago, jjtile said:

God, I really hope SI don’t see it this way. 

For many - myself included - setting up a base tactic and matching expectations isn’t little effort. It’s something that the rest of the game (coaching, transfers, squad management) is unfortunately gated behind.

In ten years, hundreds of hours in-game and hundreds of hours reading the forums, I’ve still never made it two seasons without being fired for failing to match board expectations.

I’m keeping all my fingers crossed that the the Tactical styles are going to essentially be a few dozen base tactics that you can choose, ensure your players’ attributes match up to, and then rarely need to think about again.

Both the quotes are very specific though.  I specifically mentioned that it should be quite easy to set up a base with the new tactical styles. I also specifically mentioned that I can set up a base tactic easily. That was a personal point, but even so we've got great guides that can help anyone do the same.

The styles will be base tactics. If you're going to expect them to be plug and play (ie just choose one and win matches infinitely) you will be disappointed. You still need the players to pull it off and if you're going to try and dominate possession with an intricate tiki taka style tactic, but using the weakest team in the league, you will most likely be disappointed. People can't have silly expectations.

[jjtile]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

Both the quotes are very specific though.  I specifically mentioned that it should be quite easy to set up a base with the new tactical styles. I also specifically mentioned that I can set up a base tactic easily. That was a personal point, but even so we've got great guides that can help anyone do the same.

The styles will be base tactics. If you're going to expect them to be plug and play (ie just choose one and win matches infinitely) you will be disappointed. You still need the players to pull it off and if you're going to try and dominate possession with an intricate tiki taka style tactic, but using the weakest team in the league, you will most likely be disappointed.

You’re arguing against a straw man there. I’m didn’t say players should be able to choose one and “win matches infinitely” (I specifically mentioned simply roughly meeting expectations) or that they should work regardless of whether you have the players to pull them off (I specifically mentioned checking your players attributes match what the tactic requires).

[jjtile]

33 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Both the quotes are very specific though.  I specifically mentioned that it should be quite easy to set up a base with the new tactical styles. I also specifically mentioned that I can set up a base tactic easily. That was a personal point, but even so we've got great guides that can help anyone do the same.

The styles will be base tactics. If you're going to expect them to be plug and play (ie just choose one and win matches infinitely) you will be disappointed. You still need the players to pull it off and if you're going to try and dominate possession with an intricate tiki taka style tactic, but using the weakest team in the league, you will most likely be disappointed.

You’re arguing against a straw man there. I didn’t say players should be able to choose one and “win matches infinitely” (I specifically mentioned simply roughly meeting expectations) or that they should work regardless of whether you have the players to pull them off (I specifically mentioned checking your players attributes match what the tactic requires).

Edited October 1, 2018 by jjtile

[HUNT3R]

14 minutes ago, jjtile said:

You’re arguing against a straw man there. I’m didn’t say players should be able to choose one and “win matches infinitely” (I specifically mentioned simply roughly meeting expectations) or that they should work regardless of whether you have the players to pull them off (I specifically mentioned checking your players attributes match what the tactic requires).

I was just making sure.

[Weston]

7 hours ago, kingking said:

 

No one needs to watch a full match, Stats are just as important and tells everything.

Just learn to analyse team and player Stats for example you can understand how good a center midfielder played by their passing, movement, tackling and dribbling stats. It doesn't take too long and you don't have to watch the whole match

Read and analyse real match and player stats, also understand football terms and football concepts and ideas through real life coaching football guides

 

6 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

As I've posted, I agree :

 

I realise there are other ways of diagnosing issues. My way is to watch a match.

You can pick up that your midfielder is not completing enough passes by checking stats. You can see your fullback is losing out on tackles by checking the stats. The stats don't give you the context of HOW this happened, although the analysis tools can quickly help here. That's one way of doing it. I don't think I've used the analysis tools once in FM18, beyond just looking at what's new and different.

 

 

@kingking My reservations regarding that strategy are the same as @HUNT3R's. How do you know what to change just by looking at stats? Not saying you're wrong - I'm genuinely asking. Analyzing matches and reacting to them is probably my single weakest attribute in FM as I typically hope sticking to my own tactics will make my team good enough at them to force other clubs to adjust to us, but that's definitely at least in part a cop out of my part as I rely on my superior squad building. Especially in light of this apparently improved tactic module, I want to become better at this, and I intend to try a mixture of watching more of the matches and taking a deeper dive in the stats, so I'm curious as to what tips you have in this area.

[hoppo1982]

On 27/09/2018 at 13:34, kandersson said:

Might be just a matter of semantics but can anyone suggest me a real life example of vertical tiki-taka? It sounds like it could be my go-to style btw...

Sarri at Napoli is the closest. Might not have reached there yet with Chelsea.