Is Football Manager going in the right direction for you?

[Marko1989]

Right away I must say, this is not a rant - I wish guys from SI all the best and I wish them to sell as many copies as possible, but I've lost all the interest in the game. I don't see any point of buying FM20 for example. I will buy it, just to support SI because they were part of my childhood but I can't find any other reason to buy it.

I have ideas for my save, I have ideas for challenges but I feel like nothing has changed in last 5 years so I can't make my self to start the save. Improvements in last couple of years - dynamics, scouting, inductions bla bla - boooring. Just boring.

Are we going to play FM 2025 in same engine? Name of the game is Football Manager. Football. Not Player Feelings Manager. And what is football? Exciting matches, nice goals, dribles etc. I think we need 3D engine that can bring us that exitement. I can hear already veterans here - go play Fifa, go play Pes, we love ancient 2D engine. Guys, for real, it is time to move on. For decades we are looking at same. Every year they say improved 3D but let's be real - it is the same as it was before.

Other thing. Player development. It is second most annoying thing in FM for me. For example, let's take Lyon striker Amine Gouiri. One of the best talents in the game. You give him playing time, he score goals, his attributes start to grow and then - that silly algoritm when game decides to lower young player attributes in order to stop him over-developing. After couple of seasons he is 25 y old. And he has the same attributes as he was 21 y old. Boring, just boring. I know that may be realistic, but this is a game, it should be fun, let him develop further if he is playing good, like in older fm's. There is no excitement when you know your young player will stop developing at age of 23. Ofcourse there should be something to stop players for over-developing but something different and not - let us lower finishing for this young striker and increase his marking so he does not over-develop. It just does not make sense. ( I have posted a thread here where I show my Vinicius Junior got decreased dribling and acceleration and increased marking at age of 21 even he was in insanely good form ) If player is playing constantly good, better with each season, he should develop each year until he is too old.  

Again, I don't have anything against SI and the game itself, I just think after so many years we need proper improvements.  For me those would be - Better 3D engine and better, not so strict, player development. Now, I just can't make myself to play, because I know I will be looking at the same goals, same everything like in 2009 and that my favourite young player will stop developing at young age without any logical reason.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Marko1989

[Dagenham_Dave]

If you have a 25yr old with the same attributes as he had at 21, you're doing it all wrong. That's definitely not the game's fault. Also, people get too hung up by individual attributes declining. Players naturally develop in some areas and not so much in others. On top of that, if you hammer a player with individual training on a certain role, his other attributes may suffer, it's all about balance. 

Secondly, FM has NEVER been about the graphics. It's a management simulation, not an arcade game. The world's best selling PC game has crude looking block graphics (Minecraft). 

34 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

but I feel like nothing has changed in last 5 years

This is just nonsense. Load up FM15 and play it alongside this year's game. If you seriously think nothing has changed, you are definitely playing the wrong game. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Dagenham_Dave

[Soviet]

I agree that it's not really going in any direction - just refinement. I don't think it's a bad thing, since I definetely not expect -- or need -- a 3D match engine to look like FIFA. Do I expect that maybe the players will stop ice-skating and be properly animated? Hey, maybe in 2025 . But SI is in a tough spot, for variety of reasons: first, they have to deliver every year or SEGA will be on the phone, and the number of features (not to mention Touch and Mobile) to support only keeps growing, so it's hard to dedicate a "special team" to do something really big, like spend more than one cycle on a 3D engine. The whole realism thing is also not easy to balance, since the real world football is changing in a way that doesn't really promote good gameplay: which manager is really responsible for transfers anymore? Same goes for tactics - game should propably let us pick different formations for every phase of play if we want to keep it real, but then the new player would get even more confused than he already is. I think SI is doing a fine job despite all the issues.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Soviet

[Grifty]

By the sound of it you are forcing yourself to play it despite losing all interest in the game. Around March/April, I got a bit fed up with it and didn't pick it up for 3-4 months. Had a long weekend not doing anything, so picked up where I left off and I haven't put the game down since.

Have a break from the game and when you come back it will be like playing a new game and you'll forget about the little things that frustrate you or you find boring.

[leviathan1904]

Is Football Manager going in the right direction for you? 

Yes. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

5 minutes ago, Grifty said:

Have a break from the game and when you come back it will be like playing a new game and you'll forget about the little things that frustrate you or you find boring.

This is great advice. I didn't play FM19 from around May to September. When I reloaded my save, I was almost disappointed FM20 was coming out so soon as I got that much back into it. 

[sporadicsmiles]

59 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

Name of the game is Football Manager. Football. Not Player Feelings Manager.

You are the manager of a football team. That means managing all aspects of that team. Signings. Tactics. Money. And players. I assume you have never been in a management role in real life. Managing people is a huge part of being a manager. Of course it is in the game. I have to say though if you are struggling with players, you are playing the game badly. It is not hard to keep people happy in this game, but it is an important part of the game. 

1 hour ago, Marko1989 said:

And what is football? Exciting matches, nice goals, dribles etc. I think we need 3D engine that can bring us that exitement.

So what you are saying is if you kept the exact same ME but used Fifa's graphics engine, you would feel the football is more exciting? Despite everything that happens being identical? Just representation? That is weird. If a game is exciting, it does not matter what it looks like. It is also kinda nonsense to suggest that graphics have not improved. Go back and play FM10, and tell me the game does not look better now. In fact if you cannot tell that the game this year already looks better than last, I may have to question your judgement on what good graphics actually are.

Do not get me wrong, I would welcome better graphics. Anyone would. It just is not the important thing. The match engine is the most important thing. How the game decides what happens in a game.  This is what makes the game good or bad. The graphics are improved each year, but there are much more important things. 

1 hour ago, Marko1989 said:

Player development. It is second most annoying thing in FM for me. For example, let's take Lyon striker Amine Gouiri. One of the best talents in the game. You give him playing time, he score goals, his attributes start to grow and then - that silly algoritm when game decides to lower young player attributes in order to stop him over-developing. After couple of seasons he is 25 y old. And he has the same attributes as he was 21 y old.

Either you have done something really wrong with his development, or the player simply has reached his max attributes. It happens. 

 

1 hour ago, Marko1989 said:

There is no excitement when you know your young player will stop developing at age of 23.

Again, if you are seeing this you are doing something drastically wrong. I pretty much never see players get worse until they decline with age. My players will increase their stats if they play and train well. If I can do this, so can you (and everyone else who does it already). If you are not doing it, you are doing something wrong. I have no idea what it is, but there is something. 

On the strictness, it reflects the real world. Some players look amazing as kids and then never develop. Some people bloom late and become excellent players. Some people progress continuously over their career. Some people are awesome and stay awesome. Not everyone is the same. It is a simulation of talent. Let's take a player as an example, Jesse Lingard. No matter how much he players, how much he trains, what effort he puts in, he is never, ever going to be as good as Messi. It is impossible. He simply lacks the talent. In your view, you should be able to train every single player you have to be as good as Messi? That is not at all realistic. It should at no point be added to the game. 

There are many improvements this year that add a lot to the game. A proper way to monitor and develop players. Club vision making moving clubs actually feel different, rather than just a reskin of each other. You now have to consider carefully who you manage based on this vision. I like that, it is nice. Talking to players about their playing time into the future to keep them happy. The way training was revamped in FM19 was another great step forward. Same with the way scouting now works. These are core aspects of the game that increase immersion and the simulation. I cannot agree with your opinion that the game is moving in a bad direction. And there are many things that are still to be improved. The press interaction has needed sorting out for years now, for example. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

Excellent post @sporadicsmiles

[Trucce]

Hello,

I think FM 2020 has made a lot of good improvements from FM 2019. 

On a tragic/happy note, I will play FM until the day I die, even if it's FM 2080.

Have a nice day.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Trucce

[XaW]

Topic: Is Football Manager going in the right direction? Yes, without a doubt. I could write page up and down about why, but others here have done just that. Especially liked the post from @sporadicsmiles.

[Baodan]

I gotta say I'm very disappointed with you @sporadicsmiles after reading your reply to the OP. Thankfully i rarely see people this disingenuous when misinterpreting another persons post.

I'll take some time to consider whether or not I'll address the many straw man arguments you've made, because I happen to share the OP's view on the matter. But first I'll give him a chance to respond to the replies if he wants to. 

[Mitja]

i wish SI stayed with 2D. by now we would have far superior ME and SI could concentrate on other parts of the game. 

[forameuss]

39 minutes ago, Mitja said:

i wish SI stayed with 2D. by now we would have far superior ME and SI could concentrate on other parts of the game. 

2D/3D is nothing to do with the Match Engine.  It's a front-end representation of the back-end engine.  We'd have the same match engine no matter what was sitting in front of it.

47 minutes ago, Baodan said:

I gotta say I'm very disappointed with you @sporadicsmiles after reading your reply to the OP. Thankfully i rarely see people this disingenuous when misinterpreting another persons post.

I'll take some time to consider whether or not I'll address the many straw man arguments you've made, because I happen to share the OP's view on the matter. But first I'll give him a chance to respond to the replies if he wants to. 

Interesting.  I'd expect you'd be taking "some time to consider" because you'd struggle to find anything wrong in the post.  No "straw-man" arguments, just a well reasoned reply to some pretty wild points.

[tyro]

16 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

Right away I must say, this is not a rant - I wish guys from SI all the best and I wish them to sell as many copies as possible, but I've lost all the interest in the game. I don't see any point of buying FM20 for example. I will buy it, just to support SI because they were part of my childhood but I can't find any other reason to buy it.

I have ideas for my save, I have ideas for challenges but I feel like nothing has changed in last 5 years so I can't make my self to start the save. Improvements in last couple of years - dynamics, scouting, inductions bla bla - boooring. Just boring.

Are we going to play FM 2025 in same engine? Name of the game is Football Manager. Football. Not Player Feelings Manager. And what is football? Exciting matches, nice goals, dribles etc. I think we need 3D engine that can bring us that exitement. I can hear already veterans here - go play Fifa, go play Pes, we love ancient 2D engine. Guys, for real, it is time to move on. For decades we are looking at same. Every year they say improved 3D but let's be real - it is the same as it was before.

Other thing. Player development. It is second most annoying thing in FM for me. For example, let's take Lyon striker Amine Gouiri. One of the best talents in the game. You give him playing time, he score goals, his attributes start to grow and then - that silly algoritm when game decides to lower young player attributes in order to stop him over-developing. After couple of seasons he is 25 y old. And he has the same attributes as he was 21 y old. Boring, just boring. I know that may be realistic, but this is a game, it should be fun, let him develop further if he is playing good, like in older fm's. There is no excitement when you know your young player will stop developing at age of 23. Ofcourse there should be something to stop players for over-developing but something different and not - let us lower finishing for this young striker and increase his marking so he does not over-develop. It just does not make sense. ( I have posted a thread here where I show my Vinicius Junior got decreased dribling and acceleration and increased marking at age of 21 even he was in insanely good form ) If player is playing constantly good, better with each season, he should develop each year until he is too old.  

Again, I don't have anything against SI and the game itself, I just think after so many years we need proper improvements.  For me those would be - Better 3D engine and better, not so strict, player development. Now, I just can't make myself to play, because I know I will be looking at the same goals, same everything like in 2009 and that my favourite young player will stop developing at young age without any logical reason.

Hi, Marko1989. If you want to play the game without these additional "boring" things, you can try out FMT. It is more streamlined and leaves them out, letting you focus on tactics and transfers. No "babysitting", dynamics, simple scouting, training, etc.

 

Now, as to the direction, for me personally, because I think this can only be subjective, yes. Have you seen how the "big" managers keep losing all of a sudden? It is because they lose the dressing room. How come Manchester United was so successful (constantly) under Sir Alex Ferguson? Because he handled the team, was able to motivate them in the right way, instilled a DNA, and offloaded trouble-makers. The same thing with Arsene Wenger and Arsenal. Despite building a stadium and having limited funds for a while, he was able to stick to the top 4 and in the Champions League for many years. And there is almost no player that has anything bad to say about him. These are just two examples, but you can see how important squad management is. You can be a brilliant tactician but if you don't know how to communicate or motivate these "star" players, what good does it do you?

My first football manager game was FM11. Since then the game developed a lot. The tactics have been completely overhauled. Training completely overhauled. Scouting completely overhauled. 3D animations and movements completely overhauled. I remember in my early FMs, I just needed a fast striker and boom, he would get the ball and outrun anyone. I personally, had no chance with slow strikers (i.e.: Target Man types). This changed. The new roles were introduced with hardcoded playstyle/instructions. Yes, maybe it is good to have less roles and have your own option to set up a player but then again for both the AI and yourself it makes it easy to have presets.

The analysis tools have improved immensely. You can now just click on the tactics pitch and you see feedback. Feedback in general.

And this year was a major improvement. I am not a player who has saves spanning many years. In fact, the most I had was 3 year saves so far. I get sidetracked too easily and start a new project. This year's game targets long term players. But after just playing through the pre-season, I am already greatly benefiting. Club Vision amazing. You have a roadmap of what they want. I love strategy games and overall planning. That is why this appeals to me personally. You start thinking ahead. Add to that the development center - same concept. Add to that the contract negotiations and promises. I was just going through the development center and picked up the breakthrough prospects. And I negotiated new deals for them. But guess what? I can't just ... click click yes yes, pay whatever done ... from the start I need to think...oh, next year he wants regular football. Can I give that to him? Is he worth it? Who do I have now in that position? You have to start planning and putting your chess pieces together years before you get there.

Dynamics. I mentioned it above but gone are the days were you could just offload all players and bring in new ones. Hah, I did it. Why was manager XYZ of my favorite club so bad and couldn't do it? Well, now with dynamics, if you do that, you gonna have a revolt and you're out of a job. Maybe this still needs tweaks/was tweaked (need to see how it is in FM20, I am not that far yet). But it is the right direction.

This is a Football Manager game. You manage a squad a team to success hopefully. This does not just involve setting up a tactic and selecting the team. It involves much more (again, you have FMT for just that if you like).

So, once again, is it going the right way? For me, yes.

[Marko1989]

I have not answered directly to any reply on my post because I can't reply without arguing ( because clearly we don't agree ), and I don't want to argue in my post with anybody. I see that nobody agrees with me so there is no point, but I appreciate the time you guys taken to reply and I respect your oppinions. It seems then that FM is not anymore for me, I've been playing it from CM 99, but it is ok, I will get back to FM in couple of years, maybe I just have to take a break. Thank you all.

[sporadicsmiles]

2 hours ago, Baodan said:

I gotta say I'm very disappointed with you @sporadicsmiles after reading your reply to the OP. Thankfully i rarely see people this disingenuous when misinterpreting another persons post.

I'll take some time to consider whether or not I'll address the many straw man arguments you've made, because I happen to share the OP's view on the matter. But first I'll give him a chance to respond to the replies if he wants to. 

I have to say, the news leaves me saddened and terribly glum... I guess I need to up my game for future misrepresentation, thank you for pointing out this terrible flaw!

Of course you are entirely free to disagree with me. Feel free to point out where I was wrong, if you want. I do suggest you read up on what a straw man argument is however. I am not sure you know. I do not recall setting anything up to knock it down. I will, however, not be drawn in to a pointless argument about this. I have said my thoughts and I am happy to defend them. If not, agree to disagree and just move on.

[GunmaN1905]

I don't really care about some of the features, but we all have to agree that feature wise FM20 is the most complete game so far. I can't really find many flaws in the game itself, it's great.

What's worrisome for me is that the ME hasn't evolved alongside the game. Every single FM iteration has a certain style which always works best and ME just isn't realistic.
Current beta ME makes me really worried for the full game ME because this is just unplayable. Hopefully it's sorted out because as I already said I love everything else about the game. But if ME isn't top notch, then all the effort is for nothing.

[Mitja]

2 hours ago, forameuss said:

2D/3D is nothing to do with the Match Engine.  It's a front-end representation of the back-end engine.  We'd have the same match engine no matter what was sitting in front of it.

emmm.., let's agree to disagree. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Mitja

[Baodan]

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

Interesting.  I'd expect you'd be taking "some time to consider" because you'd struggle to find anything wrong in the post.  No "straw-man" arguments, just a well reasoned reply to some pretty wild points.

I'm at work and constantly interrupted by work assignments and calls, so its hard to devote the time needed for a proper response, especially if I also want to sound semi-coherent. 

But lets take one of the points I feel more strongly about from Marko's post;
 

17 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

And what is football? Exciting matches, nice goals, dribles etc. I think we need 3D engine that can bring us that exitement. I can hear already veterans here - go play Fifa, go play Pes, we love ancient 2D engine. Guys, for real, it is time to move on. For decades we are looking at same. Every year they say improved 3D but let's be real - it is the same as it was before.

Marko sounds like a typical football fan who enjoys the amazing things football players do from time to time - something that currently is very poorly represented in FM.

This aspect of highly skilled players not really shining in FM like they do in real life, that lack off;" Wow! Did you see that!?", that has been missing pretty much since 3D matches became a thing in FM.

Regarding this point - @Marko1989 is absolutely correct, in my opinion. Graphically it could be prettier, but it's good enough. The game just needs to show more of the extraordinary and spectacular things that happens in real life football.

@sporadicsmiles takes a different approach in his reply to this section of Marko's post....

End of work - I'll look it over again tomorrow and hopefully finish my reply.

[Tony Wright 747]

most of the improvements in this years game are already in the game, but not so easily accessable so slight improvement there.  Matchday graphics are a little better than last year, but the ME has been poor for the last 3 versions, so is FM going in the right direction, I'm not sure that it is at the moment.

[forameuss]

13 minutes ago, Mitja said:

 

emmm.., let's agree to disagree. 

Which demonstrable fact would you like to pretend isn't one?

13 minutes ago, Baodan said:

I'm at work and constantly interrupted by work assignments and calls, so its hard to devote the time needed for a proper response, especially if I also want to sound semi-coherent. 

But lets take one of the points I feel more strongly about from Marko's post;
 

Marko sounds like a typical football fan who enjoys the amazing things football players do from time to time - something that currently is very poorly represented in FM.

This aspect of highly skilled players not really shining in FM like they do in real life, that lack off;" Wow! Did you see that!?", that has been missing pretty much since 3D matches became a thing in FM.

Regarding this point - @Marko1989 is absolutely correct, in my opinion. Graphically it could be prettier, but it's good enough. The game just needs to show more of the extraordinary and spectacular things that happens in real life football.

@sporadicsmiles takes a different approach in his reply to this section of Marko's post....

End of work - I'll look it over again tomorrow and hopefully finish my reply.

One person being right doesn't preclude someone else from being right too.  sporadicsmiles even admits that he would like an improved engine.  And none of the rest of what he says is false.

What does come into the territory of false is when you start mentioning FIFA and PES.  There is likely to be no direction SI could take that would yield those results.  You know why those games get away with such perfect presentation?  Two main reasons - budget and what it has to marry to.  EA have more money than God.  Konami maybe have a better budget, but they more come into the second point.  Both EA and Konami are marrying their presentation to, let's face it, absolute guff match engines.  They're not directly comparable, as they're trying to represent different things (arcade style 10 minute matches vs potentially up to an hour of football).  If EA had as complex a match engine as SI are dealing with, they'd need to put faaaaaar more work into moulding it into a visual engine that reaches that quality.  SI are a smaller team making a healthy living, but they won't have the resources it would take to achieve that.  Or the desire really, given they've historically concentrated on making sure as many people can play their product as possible in some capacity.

So with a football analogy, sporadicsmiles wins 3-1 with two late goals.  Good effort from the original poster, but let himself down at the end.

[davewhite04]

Thanks for starting this thread, it just saved me £30. 

The ME hasn't been "fun" since they introduced it. Funny how friendlies tend to be fun but as soon as the game is asked to cope with more data, ie the season starting it just falls to pieces for the past 10 years+. 

Instead of tidying up the interface and updating the data annually(and charging £30+) they should at least make a start on improving the ME, make it fun again, a good team and manager should always beat a weak team, I don't care about it being possible in real life, I want to play a game not some half baked game with an irritating ME with additional bugs annually(VAR).

I've been playing since Championship Manager 92/93(the first one), and now it's time to say goodbye even though it breaks my heart, but SI games are simply a very poor software house now, have been since the founders left.

Not a rant, just honesty coming from a veteran who loves games. 

[RandomGuy.]

15 minutes ago, davewhite04 said:

Thanks for starting this thread, it just saved me £30. 

The ME hasn't been "fun" since they introduced it. Funny how friendlies tend to be fun but as soon as the game is asked to cope with more data, ie the season starting it just falls to pieces for the past 10 years+. 

Instead of tidying up the interface and updating the data annually(and charging £30+) they should at least make a start on improving the ME, make it fun again, a good team and manager should always beat a weak team, I don't care about it being possible in real life, I want to play a game not some half baked game with an irritating ME with additional bugs annually(VAR).

I've been playing since Championship Manager 92/93(the first one), and now it's time to say goodbye even though it breaks my heart, but SI games are simply a very poor software house now, have been since the founders left.

Not a rant, just honesty coming from a veteran who loves games. 

Try the demo before completely writing it off surely?

Your point about how it would be "more fun" if a "good team always beat a weak team" is just odd to me, I far prefer playing as a weak side so knowing that I'm on a hiding as I cannot win would ruin things.

[HUNT3R]

44 minutes ago, davewhite04 said:

I've been playing since Championship Manager 92/93(the first one), and now it's time to say goodbye even though it breaks my heart, but SI games are simply a very poor software house now, have been since the founders left.

Your reason for "SI games are simply a very poor software house now" is : 

44 minutes ago, davewhite04 said:

they should at least make a start on improving the ME, make it fun again, a good team and manager should always beat a weak team, I don't care about it being possible in real life,

??It's supposed to be a simulation not something arcade-like.

 

Both you and the OP want "fun" not realism. That can be had in a way with FM, but you'd have to download exploit tactics etc for that, for a start.

Quote

have been since the founders left.

If you mean the Collyer brothers, they're still here.

 

----

 

In general (not just to you) - Look, I get that different people want different things. Just keep a sense of perspective of what the game is or is trying to be. If you want something different, there's no issue with that at all. It's not the game's or SI's fault though. To a degree, the people who want less realism can still have that.

[Viking]

I think FM gets better and better.

[99]

Every edition of Football Manager is better than the previous one --- in my opinion, ofcourse.

Like I wrote in other threads, we should make a clear distinction between the frustration of not getting the desired new features, and actually think a new version is worse than the previous one. It's two very different things to me.

Now, I have also to say that, with competition, FM would be much more evolved than what it is now. But that's natural, happens everywhere, with everything. If you're the only one doing something, no matter how good you are and how professional you are, you won't be giving all you are able to. It's not on purpose, it's the way our brains work. You see that, talking football wise, in players. A player that has a place in a team and has no backup that even gets near his level, won't be giving the same effort as another one whose place in the team might be in question.

That's also why, in economy, it's so important to preserve competition between businesses.

Edited November 7, 2019 by 99

[TokyoWanderer]

I share the OP's frustration in that I feel the game is not evolving fast in the areas I care about the most, which are the ME and 3d representation.

The ME runs into similar problems every year, in my view. There are a few big problems that have been present pretty much in every iteration of the ME at least from FM16 on, like lack of through balls from the middle and to the middle (not long balls getting over the defense), defenders reacting with lag to long balls and sometimes not engaging at all, lack of off-the-ball attacking movement in the final third, and lack of diversity on 1v1 opportunities.

There are also the big "bugs" of every ME, like the amount of blocked crosses in FM19 or the superpowered crosses in FM 16 (I think it was FM16), which I guess are inevitable given how the games' production cycle goes.

Regarding 3d, I know Football Manager isn't a AAA game, but the fact that PRO EVOLUTION 3, released in 2003, looks so much better than FM 2019 is puzzling and frustrating. I know the two games are trying to represent totally different things, but still.

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, kidd_05_u2 said:

There are a few big problems that have been present pretty much in every iteration of the ME at least from FM16 on, like lack of through balls from the middle and to the middle (not long balls getting over the defense), defenders reacting with lag to long balls and sometimes not engaging at all, lack of off-the-ball attacking movement in the final third, and lack of diversity on 1v1 opportunities.

Sounds like you skipped FM17 and FM18 which had all of this... though maybe even too much.

[Double0Seven]

To put things in perspective. 

Our game does not have 1281827 pieces of dlc like Paradox games. 

We do not have a loot box system that ruins the game and even morally wrong as it encourages underaged gambling. 

Si actually regularly talks to us. I play csgo and the devs there would rather react with a meme than actually helping out. 

So yes the game might be a bit underwhelming compared to itself, but the game is still great compared to other games. 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Double0Seven

[ATW]

48 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

To put things in perspective. 

Our game does not have 1281827 pieces of dlc like Paradox games. 

 

Wow! Why you hitting out at Paradox.  Comparing their big 4 games still being worked on despite being released in 2013, 2015, 2016 and their 2012 release just ended...  

 

As for FM.  Love it.  Like the new features.  Don't really care about the 3d graphics.  2d or text commentary is good enough for me.  

Edited November 7, 2019 by ATW

[forameuss]

46 minutes ago, Double0Seven said:

To put things in perspective. 

Our game does not have 1281827 pieces of dlc like Paradox games. 

We do not have a loot box system that ruins the game and even morally wrong as it encourages underaged gambling. 

Si actually regularly talks to us. I play csgo and the devs there would rather react with a meme than actually helping out. 

So yes the game might be a bit underwhelming compared to itself, but the game is still great compared to other games. 

This is why anyone mentioning the microtransactions in FM causes raised eyebrows.  I'll never be particularly interested in them, but they're essentially accelerators on things you can unlock in your own time.  Compared to other games...well, they don't really compare.

One thing I'd slightly disagree with is the "Si actually regularly talks to us" part though.  They don't really.  But then it's parts of the community that are to blame for that.  As I understand (it was before my time) they used to do it a lot more before getting regular abuse and deciding it wasn't worth it.  Fair enough.

[sporadicsmiles]

4 hours ago, Baodan said:

@sporadicsmiles takes a different approach in his reply to this section of Marko's post....

I literally did say that I think the game could be better graphically. If SI turned around and told me that the graphics were now better than FIFA, I would be as delighted as anyone. I have played this game since it was text only. text to 2D was a huge step. 2D to 3D was a huge step. Hell if you offered me a VR sideline view I would literally bite your hand off. I just think their are more important huge steps than improving the 3D graphics.

It is entirely fine if you or anyone disagrees. I am not claiming to be the sole well spring of truth (at least not on this topic!).

[Dagenham_Dave]

3 hours ago, davewhite04 said:

Funny how friendlies tend to be fun but as soon as the game is asked to cope with more data, ie the season starting it just falls to pieces

lol, wut?

I can't believe no-one's picked up on this. Is this the most factually inaccurate thing anyone's ever said on here? And yes, I know there's a lot of competition for that. 

 

[steam just is]

23 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

Right away I must say, this is not a rant - I wish guys from SI all the best and I wish them to sell as many copies as possible, but I've lost all the interest in the game. I don't see any point of buying FM20 for example. I will buy it, just to support SI because they were part of my childhood but I can't find any other reason to buy it.

I have ideas for my save, I have ideas for challenges but I feel like nothing has changed in last 5 years so I can't make my self to start the save. Improvements in last couple of years - dynamics, scouting, inductions bla bla - boooring. Just boring.

Are we going to play FM 2025 in same engine? Name of the game is Football Manager. Football. Not Player Feelings Manager. And what is football? Exciting matches, nice goals, dribles etc. I think we need 3D engine that can bring us that exitement. I can hear already veterans here - go play Fifa, go play Pes, we love ancient 2D engine. Guys, for real, it is time to move on. For decades we are looking at same. Every year they say improved 3D but let's be real - it is the same as it was before.

Other thing. Player development. It is second most annoying thing in FM for me. For example, let's take Lyon striker Amine Gouiri. One of the best talents in the game. You give him playing time, he score goals, his attributes start to grow and then - that silly algoritm when game decides to lower young player attributes in order to stop him over-developing. After couple of seasons he is 25 y old. And he has the same attributes as he was 21 y old. Boring, just boring. I know that may be realistic, but this is a game, it should be fun, let him develop further if he is playing good, like in older fm's. There is no excitement when you know your young player will stop developing at age of 23. Ofcourse there should be something to stop players for over-developing but something different and not - let us lower finishing for this young striker and increase his marking so he does not over-develop. It just does not make sense. ( I have posted a thread here where I show my Vinicius Junior got decreased dribling and acceleration and increased marking at age of 21 even he was in insanely good form ) If player is playing constantly good, better with each season, he should develop each year until he is too old.  

Again, I don't have anything against SI and the game itself, I just think after so many years we need proper improvements.  For me those would be - Better 3D engine and better, not so strict, player development. Now, I just can't make myself to play, because I know I will be looking at the same goals, same everything like in 2009 and that my favourite young player will stop developing at young age without any logical reason.

Great question and the diversity of the answers proves the impossible job SI have.

i still think that for whatever reason the ME took a massive step back from 17 to 18 and has never recovered. I would like SI to be honest as to why this happened. EA have admitted to FIFA mistakes in past. But the 18 and 19 MEs were repetitive and had no or little creativity on show. It’s like the number of algorithms was deliberately reduced (maybe to save time which means saving money)

I haven’t seen ME20 so can’t comment. If it's a slightly improved version of 19 it’s still worse than 17 and I sincerely can’t think of many products which are worse than a predecessor from 3 years ago so that would be a massive shame

 

[Steewen]

Well, for me its moving in the right direction. Its moving slowly, but still in the right direction. 
Buuut, the day they start to spend their time improving 3d animations, it will start to move in the wrong direction. Same for regen faces. Simply doesnt matter at all for me. 

[janrzm]

I definitely think there was a need to flesh out more detail in certain elements of the game outside of the ME, we've seen that this year. In relation to the ME lots of things have improved although there are clearly still plenty of issues to be worked on. Personally, I feel the resources demanded by the Google Stadia addition were the driving factor behind this years progress/development of the game, I can live with it.

In terms of the OP, a couple of things. I truly believe everyone benefits from a good break between game releases and it sounds like you need it. Personally I wrap up the previous year 4-5 months before the new release. Usually I've spent more than enough time on it by then.

Also, something I've picked up on this year.....try to stay away from the Beta release and all the comments around it. This year I've downloaded the Beta and followed the various grumble threads, however legit some of those threads and comments are I feel they've somehow tarnished the game for me. Better to download the finished game and make your own mind up about the things you actually notice for yourself.

 

[drogbanasri63]

Please just always keep the 2D I love it and can play even without a new computer

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 hours ago, janrzm said:

try to stay away from the Beta release and all the comments around it. This year I've downloaded the Beta and followed the various grumble threads, however legit some of those threads and comments are I feel they've somehow tarnished the game for me. Better to download the finished game and make your own mind up about the things you actually notice for yourself.

 

This is a drum I've banged for years now. I know loads of people who play FM who have never been near here (or any of the other forums), and they never moan constantly about the things that are moaned about in here. There's a definite snowball effect with a lot of the issues the game has when it comes to this site. 

[janrzm]

2 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

This is a drum I've banged for years now. I know loads of people who play FM who have never been near here (or any of the other forums), and they never moan constantly about the things that are moaned about in here. There's a definite snowball effect with a lot of the issues the game has when it comes to this site. 

100%. Ultimately, I do think this place is a genuine benefit to the game and its development, but.......the stuff around the Beta just doesn't work for me either and I suspect plenty of others would benefit from taking a step back.

[janrzm]

4 hours ago, Steewen said:

Well, for me its moving in the right direction. Its moving slowly, but still in the right direction. 
Buuut, the day they start to spend their time improving 3d animations, it will start to move in the wrong direction. Same for regen faces. Simply doesnt matter at all for me. 

Personally, I never dismiss the elements of the game that aren't important to me because I know they matter to other people.

Newgen faces and worse still their cartoonish hair continue to ruin the longevity of the game for me. This sucks given the effort put in to long term saves this year. Please sort it out Si.... 

[ceefax the cat]

I would like them to prioritise getting the match engine into a state where, at the very least, all of the buttons work and do what they say they're going to do. That we're still dealing with sweeper keepers who don't sweep, nobody pulling wide, deep forwards not dropping off, false 9's who stand on the shoulder of the last man, nobody threading any passes into the box, etc etc, in every version is not on really. To take a particularly negligent example, liberos have gone slowly from ignoring their instructions completely and just being centre backs to occasionally standing about 5 metres further forward and pumping a long ball over the top, over a period of about 15 years. You would think the bare minimum would be that the players do, or at least try to do, what you tell them to do but in every version, after a few months people will just accept that instruction X or role Y doesn't work this year and that's it. That really should not be it, the game should basically work.

It's so deflating thinking up a nice system, setting the appropriate instructions, tweaking and trying to bash it into shape, before realising the game is going to ignore you no matter what. That the graphics are from 1995 is a minor problem by comparison.

Edited November 8, 2019 by ceefax the cat

[Baodan]

 

On 06/11/2019 at 21:38, sporadicsmiles said:

So what you are saying is if you kept the exact same ME but used Fifa's graphics engine, you would feel the football is more exciting? Despite everything that happens being identical? Just representation? That is weird.

No Cathy Newman that's not what he said and I guess that's why you had to start the sentence the way you did.

On 06/11/2019 at 21:38, sporadicsmiles said:

If a game is exciting, it does not matter what it looks like.

I agree to a certain extent and that is why I'm so sad to not be excited by the very monotonous animations in the current 3D match viewer.

 

On 06/11/2019 at 21:38, sporadicsmiles said:

It is also kinda nonsense to suggest that graphics have not improved. Go back and play FM10, and tell me the game does not look better now. In fact if you cannot tell that the game this year already looks better than last, I may have to question your judgement on what good graphics actually are.

He never talks about the players, the pitch or the stadium/crowds having to look better or more realistic. He specifically mentions nice goals and dribbling, both of which can easily be improved via more animations, while keeping the current graphical look of the game.

 

On 06/11/2019 at 21:38, sporadicsmiles said:

Do not get me wrong, I would welcome better graphics. Anyone would. It just is not the important thing. The match engine is the most important thing. How the game decides what happens in a game.  This is what makes the game good or bad. The graphics are improved each year, but there are much more important things.

 Then after "attacking" him for wanting a better looking game, which he never actually said, you turn around and say that you yourself would actually like the game to look better - OK...

I agree that the most important thing, and what makes the game good or bad, is the ME. The ME graphics are not really improved each year but all the other screens we look at do seem like they improve (at least they change appearance/style).

Now that I've somewhat completed my answer for the first part of your misinterpretation of Marko's post, I'll stop replying in this thread, mainly due to people like Forameuss. I doubt we can get anything close to a good conversation going on this subject. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by Baodan

[martplfc1]

It's probably nothing to do with the game if you find it boring. Try playing CM01/02 today, a game that I would literally spend days at a time on (to the detriment of my education!). I give up just as quickly as I do with FM19. The game just doesn't interest me anymore, despite being vastly better than 01/02. That's more down to me than the game, and I suspect the same is happening to you. I also suspect that if the game looked and played like FIFA, you'd still get bored of it.

[nie jem frytek]

On 06/11/2019 at 20:22, Marko1989 said:

Name of the game is Football Manager. Football Manager. Not Football.

Fixed that for you.

[Mitja]

7 hours ago, ceefax the cat said:

I would like them to prioritise getting the match engine into a state where, at the very least, all of the buttons work and do what they say they're going to do

that was my concerns with fm19. SI defenetely need some serious competition.

[sporadicsmiles]

51 minutes ago, Baodan said:

No Cathy Newman that's not what he said and I guess that's why you had to start the sentence the way you did.

I doubt Cathy will respond to you (weird how you address someone not involved in the conversation), so I will do so in her stead. The OP said he wants graphical improvements to make the game better. The match engine is the calculator behind the scenes. The graphics engine is what translates this into the game we watch. So if you change the latter, you would have exactly the same game, just looking nicer. The ME and GE are two very separate things. Making the game look like FIFA would not change a single thing about how the ME calculates the games.

54 minutes ago, Baodan said:

He never talks about the players, the pitch or the stadium/crowds having to look better or more realistic. He specifically mentions nice goals and dribbling, both of which can easily be improved via more animations, while keeping the current graphical look of the game.

Any  graphical improvements are nice. But the underlying thing here is that you would see the exact same things with improved graphics. You would not be making "nicer goals" by having better graphics. You would be scoring the same goals. The crowd definitely needs to be improved, by the way. It does not really bother me, but they all look weird standing in their Tshirts in the driving rain. Not disappearing en masse at half time.

58 minutes ago, Baodan said:

 Then after "attacking" him for wanting a better looking game, which he never actually said, you turn around and say that you yourself would actually like the game to look better - OK...

Oh deary, you think this was an attack? Interesting. I should be careful in my speech, would not wish to attack you too . I disagreed that graphical improvements are making the game bad, and that they should be the focus. They absolutely should not be. There are much more important things that need to be sorted out or added to this game. In my case, I would love the AI to be better. I'd take a graphics downgrade if I could get that. Every single person here would be happy with better graphics, it is absolutely not shocking to have this opinion.

1 hour ago, Baodan said:

I agree that the most important thing, and what makes the game good or bad, is the ME. The ME graphics are not really improved each year but all the other screens we look at do seem like they improve (at least they change appearance/style).

The ME is just the way the game calculates the game. It does this before you even watch the game (and it is also what the pause you get when you make a tactical change is - the game recalculates how your changes will influence the result). This is the bread and butter of the game. This is where the bugs you see in game come from. For example the diagonal balls we see in the FM20 beta. What we watch comes from the graphics engine. It reads what the ME has said happens, and translates it into 3D visualisation. It does not do anything else. Which is why I say that the ME is the most important thing (as do you). The GE can create visual bugs (like those really underhit backpasses where nobody responds to the ball, I always figured that was the GE selecting animations badly). The graphics have improved though. I remember players looking like they were ice skating when they dribbled, for example. Every year they add new animations to the game (I'm sure we could find out how many). Right now I think SI are approaching a level of development that is close to where they need to be with new features. Once they have these in place, maybe they will overhaul the graphics engine.

1 hour ago, Baodan said:

Now that I've somewhat completed my answer for the first part of your misinterpretation of Marko's post, I'll stop replying in this thread, mainly due to people like Forameuss. I doubt we can get anything close to a good conversation going on this subject. 

That's fair enough. We differ in opinion and I respect that. The internet does not always have to be an angry place. Nor do we have to furiously argue to show someone is correct. It is all opinion, and in this case nobody is really right or wrong. We all want different things from the game, and I will not claim to be correct to the exclusion of anyone else.

[herne79]

10 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

This is a drum I've banged for years now. I know loads of people who play FM who have never been near here (or any of the other forums), and they never moan constantly about the things that are moaned about in here. There's a definite snowball effect with a lot of the issues the game has when it comes to this site. 

Add into that "feedback" from some people who haven't even played the Beta.

And comments (presented as fact) from people who think they know more about the game or how SI are run than they actually do.

[andyt365]

I think its far too detailed tbh. Theres no need for hierachies and tunnel cam etc... Even the media stuff is pointless. The game is suffering from bloat. Alot of this stuff doesnt make it any more enjoyable.

Somewhere in between touch and FM would be better. 

[andyt365]

On 06/11/2019 at 19:22, Marko1989 said:

Right away I must say, this is not a rant - I wish guys from SI all the best and I wish them to sell as many copies as possible, but I've lost all the interest in the game. I don't see any point of buying FM20 for example. I will buy it, just to support SI because they were part of my childhood but I can't find any other reason to buy it.

I have ideas for my save, I have ideas for challenges but I feel like nothing has changed in last 5 years so I can't make my self to start the save. Improvements in last couple of years - dynamics, scouting, inductions bla bla - boooring. Just boring.

Are we going to play FM 2025 in same engine? Name of the game is Football Manager. Football. Not Player Feelings Manager. And what is football? Exciting matches, nice goals, dribles etc. I think we need 3D engine that can bring us that exitement. I can hear already veterans here - go play Fifa, go play Pes, we love ancient 2D engine. Guys, for real, it is time to move on. For decades we are looking at same. Every year they say improved 3D but let's be real - it is the same as it was before.

Other thing. Player development. It is second most annoying thing in FM for me. For example, let's take Lyon striker Amine Gouiri. One of the best talents in the game. You give him playing time, he score goals, his attributes start to grow and then - that silly algoritm when game decides to lower young player attributes in order to stop him over-developing. After couple of seasons he is 25 y old. And he has the same attributes as he was 21 y old. Boring, just boring. I know that may be realistic, but this is a game, it should be fun, let him develop further if he is playing good, like in older fm's. There is no excitement when you know your young player will stop developing at age of 23. Ofcourse there should be something to stop players for over-developing but something different and not - let us lower finishing for this young striker and increase his marking so he does not over-develop. It just does not make sense. ( I have posted a thread here where I show my Vinicius Junior got decreased dribling and acceleration and increased marking at age of 21 even he was in insanely good form ) If player is playing constantly good, better with each season, he should develop each year until he is too old.  

Again, I don't have anything against SI and the game itself, I just think after so many years we need proper improvements.  For me those would be - Better 3D engine and better, not so strict, player development. Now, I just can't make myself to play, because I know I will be looking at the same goals, same everything like in 2009 and that my favourite young player will stop developing at young age without any logical reason.

Agree on the feelings side. Proper dull.

But I still play commentary only. 

[mp_87]

The ME, the GE, Tactical elements, other features..... I think we all can give opinion about where improvement could happen. They're side issues though in my opinion, when you talk about direction for me there is only one real discussion and that is the realism factor and how Fm'ers choose and want to play the game.

I fully encourage the route they're going down. More realism, added depth, added features (even if they're fairly superfluous, eg. Social Media), added detail and tasks to do. It's supposed to be a management simulation, the actual football match is 1.5 hours out of 168 in the week. What happens out on the pitch at the weekend is the culmination of all the work - the training, tactical preparation, analysis and planning, squad/player management, and everything else in between - that you do day in day out, week in week out before that. That's the reality, it should be represented like that in the game. That's before we even get to the stuff like longer term and coherent realistic planning in how to build a team/club, transfers, youth policy etc.....

Some people will like that slower pace to the game and additional detail. Personally as someone who plays the game very very slowly anyway it doesn't impact me. I think in full fat FM anything that makes the user have to slow down, consider, and put a bit more thought into what they're doing is 99.9% of the time a good thing, from a realism point of view if nothing else. A large section of the userbase, maybe a majority, though will, as we have seen, look on in horror as they want a game they can race through in the limited time they have, win games, sign players, not have to think about tactics and training etc. and win trophies. And I understand that mentality fully.

I guess how you cater for both appetites is already available - full FM, and Classic/Touch mode. Possibly (as I have no idea the impact different game modes have on the overall FM production) SI can highlight/differentiate/separate these different strands of the game a bit better and there is maybe a need to be a bit more aggressive/brutally honest to people, and spell out that FM is going to continue to strive for realism and if that's not for you don't play it and Touch/Classic (Classic mode the much better name, in my opinion!) is a more arcadey, quicker option and like the older CM/FM titles that most of us were brought up on. I know SI and the staff on here do highlight the different modes now and encourage users to try both, but a lot of what I see is a gentle steer, and more along the lines of "have you considered FM Touch.....", possibly needs a change of tack to something a little more emphatic.....

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by mp_87