Booted up fm12 to see how far we have ( or haven't) evolved - match engine

[herne79]

7 hours ago, sidslayer said:

Just as a matter of interest does anybody think the grey border around the 2d pitch looks good? Wouldn’t you prefer a picture of the stadium you’re playing at in the background? Is it really just me?

Huge numbers of us download face packs, logos, kits, backgrounds to enhance the game world. A world rooted in reality. To make it more immersive. Shouldn’t that extend to matchday also?

Personally I find a bunch of dots sliding around on something akin to green ice to be about as unimmersive as it's possible to be, so I couldn't really give a stuff what the border's like.  I appreciate some people prefer using 2D (I very occasionally use it myself when developing tactics) but for me I don't think any part of 2D "looks good", never mind just the border.

[Tyburn]

8 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Personally I find a bunch of dots sliding around on something akin to green ice to be about as unimmersive as it's possible to be, so I couldn't really give a stuff what the border's like.  I appreciate some people prefer using 2D (I very occasionally use it myself when developing tactics) but for me I don't think any part of 2D "looks good", never mind just the border.

Yet here it is in the game. It’s not just a mode for the few. Huge numbers prefer it. It is a part of the game. 

I’m surprised you should be so dismissive of it. I’m not dismissive of the 3d stickmen. 

The point about this is being continually missed. If the 3d match engine had a grey border around it instead of stands and crowd you’d be ok with that would you? 

And the fact remains that if the grey border was not there, and a picture of the stadium you were playing at was in its place it would look a whole load better.

But you don’t seem to want it to look any better. You just want to tell loads of people who play in 2d that you don’t care. Nice one.

Edited November 27, 2019 by sidslayer

[rockpie]

8 hours ago, sidslayer said:

Huge numbers of us download face packs, logos, kits, backgrounds to enhance the game world. A world rooted in reality.

A world where football players are not 2D circles. Yes.

If you're using the 2D match engine you've already moved further away from any attempt at realism.

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

I’m not dismissive of the 3d stickmen.

Sounds like you are. 

 

On a more serious note, there may well be game design reasons for the 2D to be that way. No harm in suggestion it as a feature request, as you did. 

[Tyburn]

Just now, rockpie said:

A world where football players are not 2D circles. Yes.

If you're using the 2D match engine you've already moved further away from any attempt at realism.

Because that attempt is not cutting it. And because my hardware is old. And to get a greater tactical overview. And because I want to feel like I’m playing at old Trafford and not in a generic box.

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

Sounds like you are. 

 

On a more serious note, there may well be game design reasons for the 2D to be that way. No harm in suggestion it as a feature request, as you did. 

Indeed

But the design is flawed. It’s not ok to just slap a slab of grey over an issue to cover up the problem. There must be another solution.

[rockpie]

Just now, sidslayer said:

Because that attempt is not cutting it. And because my hardware is old. And to get a greater tactical overview. And because I want to feel like I’m playing at old Trafford and not in a generic box.

Agreed on the tactical overview, I switch to 2D occasionally for that reason. Although, you can adjust the camera on the 3D match engine for a similar effect. That's something else I do quite a lot.

2D isn't bad, it also isn't perfect.

3D isn't bad, it also isn't perfect.

People choose to play on the one they prefer, for their own reasons and because of their own preferences.

I don't think you can go as far as saying the match engine in FM12 is better, though.

It's just that you prefer the layout and you (presumably) use your imagination to make up for the massive holes that were in that particular engine. Players phasing through each other and not scoring headers is easier to deal with that way.

Just the same as in FM20, your imagination in the 2D version makes it easier for you to deal with other animations and features of the match engine that you aren't happy with.

That's cool. But it doesn't make FM12 better.

[Tyburn]

3 minutes ago, rockpie said:

Agreed on the tactical overview, I switch to 2D occasionally for that reason. Although, you can adjust the camera on the 3D match engine for a similar effect. That's something else I do quite a lot.

2D isn't bad, it also isn't perfect.

3D isn't bad, it also isn't perfect.

People choose to play on the one they prefer, for their own reasons and because of their own preferences.

I don't think you can go as far as saying the match engine in FM12 is better, though.

It's just that you prefer the layout and you (presumably) use your imagination to make up for the massive holes that were in that particular engine. Players phasing through each other and not scoring headers is easier to deal with that way.

Just the same as in FM20, your imagination in the 2D version makes it easier for you to deal with other animations and features of the match engine that you aren't happy with.

That's cool. But it doesn't make FM12 better.

Totally agree with you. I’ve never personally said that fm12 was better. In fact I’ve said the ME is blatantly waaaay better now. I’ve hijacked the thread to push my own agenda unfortunately. Which is that the ability to have background pictures on matchday instead of a grey slab is infinitely better.

[rockpie]

1 minute ago, sidslayer said:

I’ve never personally said that fm12 was better.

Fair enough, I got you confused with OP. 

But if you use your imagination... it's not a grey slab just like they aren't 2D circles! 

[herne79]

20 minutes ago, sidslayer said:

Yet here it is in the game. It’s not just a mode for the few. Huge numbers prefer it. It is a part of the game. 

I’m surprised you should be so dismissive of it. I’m not dismissive of the 3d stickmen. 

The point about this is being continually missed. If the 3d match engine had a grey border around it instead of stands and crowd you’d be ok with that would you? 

And the fact remains that if the grey border was not there, and a picture of the stadium you were playing at was in its place it would look a whole load better.

But you don’t seem to want it to look any better. You just want to tell loads of people who play in 2d that you don’t care. Nice one.

You asked for people's opinions.  I gave you mine.  Nothing to do with being dismissive or that I don't care about other's opinions ("I appreciate some people prefer using 2D"), but you do seem very willing to attack people who don't happen to agree with your point of view.

If you think it doesn't look right that's entirely up to you and I respect that.  But if you ask for other's opinions and you don't hear what you want to hear there is no need whatsoever to post like that.

[HUNT3R]

I just tried the 2D in FM20 and found that with more zoom adjustment, I barely had any grey areas around the pitch. On this pc I'm running 1440 x 900 resolution, FWIW.

[Tyburn]

18 minutes ago, herne79 said:

You asked for people's opinions.  I gave you mine.  Nothing to do with being dismissive or that I don't care about other's opinions ("I appreciate some people prefer using 2D"), but you do seem very willing to attack people who don't happen to agree with your point of view.

If you think it doesn't look right that's entirely up to you and I respect that.  But if you ask for other's opinions and you don't hear what you want to hear there is no need whatsoever to post like that.

Your point of view was dismissive. Not really a point of view at all. “I don’t care” is barely worth posting tbh.

But I take your point on board.

[Tyburn]

19 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I just tried the 2D in FM20 and found that with more zoom adjustment, I barely had any grey areas around the pitch. On this pc I'm running 1440 x 900 resolution, FWIW.

Indeed. But I’d rather see the background around the pitch than the whole pitch. Like 3d gets. Except a stadium picture. Not a grey ‘work in progress’ slab.

[herne79]

 @sidslayer If you would "rather see the background around the pitch than the whole pitch. Like 3d gets. Except a stadium picture. Not a grey ‘work in progress’ slab" then please post the suggestion in the Feature Requests forum.  If you want it changed that is the only way SI will consider it for future versions of the game.

[XaW]

10 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

It would appear a lot of people have  gone back to playing FM17,

Not according to Steam. These are the highest FM games at the "peak for today":

61,769 Football Manager 2020
24,522 Football Manager 2019
6,205 Football Manager 2018

Those are from the top 100 played games.

https://store.steampowered.com/stats/

[CFuller]

I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it certainly doesn't suggest a lot of players have returned to FM17.

[Tyburn]

55 minutes ago, herne79 said:

 @sidslayer If you would "rather see the background around the pitch than the whole pitch. Like 3d gets. Except a stadium picture. Not a grey ‘work in progress’ slab" then please post the suggestion in the Feature Requests forum.  If you want it changed that is the only way SI will consider it for future versions of the game.

Again, thank you and I have.

[22smoje]

22 hours ago, El_sambo said:

I think you're all missing my point. I'm not saying that 12 is the godfather of all games. I simply wanted to go back nearly 10 years and see how far this game has evolved. If you take any other franchise 8-10 would he light years of difference. Now with just the aesthetics on the match engine alone. There was a 2d and a 2d classic. Why did they do away with this?? Just try it yourselves.. 2d on fm12 ( not 2d classic) looks better than todays. That's just one point I'm making 

My take on this is that from 2012 onwards I have paid SI/SEGA ~300 EUR for 9 versions. Basically for added shiny, sparkling, side features. 8 years later the complexity of their thousand features results in a mediocre match engine, at best.

In comparison, Read Dead Redemption 2 costs just as much as one FM copy and you have a much better experience than its predecessor from 2010.

Edited November 27, 2019 by 22smoje

[22smoje]

19 hours ago, KUBI said:

It's always a big difference between the feedback thread and the amount of people who just playing and enjoying the game. 

Is there any chance of a statistical breakdown of how much a feature is used in FM (let's say 19)? Is this something that could be made public?
 

I, for one, would be curious to know how many watch 2D versus 3D, among other things.

[Baodan]

14 minutes ago, 22smoje said:

In comparison, Read Dead Redemption 2 costs just as much as one FM copy and you have a much better experience than its predecessor from 2010.

Poor comparison, my friend, apples to oranges and all that. 

[22smoje]

Just now, Baodan said:

Poor comparison, my friend, apples to oranges and all that. 

Care to elaborate?

[KUBI]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb 22smoje:

Is there any chance of a statistical breakdown of how much a feature is used in FM (let's say 19)? Is this something that could be made public?
 

I, for one, would be curious to know how many watch 2D versus 3D, among other things.

A year ago Miles tweeted that 85.39% of the matches are played/viewed in 3D. 

2D is now a view not an engine as 2D classic was.

[HUNT3R]

4 minutes ago, KUBI said:

A year ago Miles tweeted that 85.39% of the matches are played/viewed in 3D. 

2D is now a view not an engine as 2D classic was.

It was the same ME, but used a different type of rendering. Software rendering. Not entirely clued up on what exactly made it different, but it was.

[22smoje]

Cool, thanks, didn't know that. Neither how many use 3D, nor the difference between 2D and 2D classic.

I expected more people to watch 2D to be honest  As for me, I wouldn't really care for the under the hood works, I just want to be able to watch 2D matches

[noikeee]

I'm with the OP, FM12 was the last time I had fun on FM at all levels long term with all the teams I managed (I did have a couple good careers in FM15 and 18 but I struggled to enjoy those versions with some other teams). Sure, FM12 had a huge exploit, but something went off with the major game re-write for FM13 that never came back, and is hard to exactly express what it was. 

Maybe I just like my game easy, idk. Sue me for that, I play games to relax and enjoy myself, not to get consistently frustrated at a computer. The reality is every single version since at some stage really frustrated me, and FM20 is starting to go up there as one of the most frustrating so far, if not the single most frustrating one. I just don't understand the match engine as it is, and it doesn't give me the consistent feedback I expect from the instructions I hand out to the players. It's a bit odd because on the beta I played with Lyon and it was vaguely fun if not quite playing exactly as I expected from the players, but playing lower league it's been an absolute nightmare.

Lower league in FM20 is all over the shop, players make ridiculous decisions and there's insane patterns of play, in some matches I'll give away 7 one on ones and they miss all of them only to score from a long shot; in other matches they'll have a single one on one and score from them. Inside forwards don't score, don't provide cutbacks, only shoot from the sideline. Wide players on support duties score more than players on attack duties. Central advanced playmakers and deep strikers are utterly ignored in build-up, so you cannot build systems based on the creativity of such players. There are tons of long through balls or hoof ups that result in clear chances, and very few short through balls unless the AI goes very attacking and gives space. Fullbacks attack wildly even on defend duty. Wingbacks come inside way too much, win the byline crazy easily, and provide cutbacks better than inside forwards. Nobody crosses the ball. Shooting on the first touch (crosses, volleys, rebounds) is far more accurate than after actually controlling the ball first. Morale/motivation seems overpowered with huge swings of form in response, and behaves very strangely, players complacent on big matches, responding unpredictably. Results seem to come more from flashes of inspiration of players than from tactical instructions. 

Unfortunately I cannot go back to FM12 because all the other quality of life improvements in the game since (everything not related to the match engine) are indispensable. I really did try a couple of years ago but there were too many repetitive clicks that aren't in later versions, and worse, the game crashed a few times in my system. There's some features in later MEs that I have to admit I like a lot, I'm not a fan of the old sliders, and lots of the new roles that have been introduced since are nice, the options for pressing and playing from the back are great, etc. But it's not fun overall. 

I'm honestly thinking of abandoning FM for a while or permanently (after about 10 years of playing it almost all the time!!), it is a huge time sink in what's ultimately an unproductive hobby (I could be using my free time to advance my coding skills instead, or learning a language, etc etc), and it doesn't even feel fun anymore. Why play games when you're an adult and don't even enjoy them. 

[Dagenham_Dave]

53 minutes ago, 22smoje said:

My take on this is that from 2012 onwards I have paid SI/SEGA ~300 EUR for 9 versions. Basically for added shiny, sparkling, side features. 8 years later the complexity of their thousand features results in a mediocre match engine, at best.

In comparison, Read Dead Redemption 2 costs just as much as one FM copy and you have a much better experience than its predecessor from 2010.

I much preferred the first Red Dead and I thought the colour pallette was better, had more of a technicor western feel. The second game is just dull, they've tried to cram too much in it. But it's an awful comparison regardless. One look at the budgets of Rockstar and SI should tell you this. 

[22smoje]

8 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I much preferred the first Red Dead and I thought the colour pallette was better, had more of a technicor western feel. The second game is just dull, they've tried to cram too much in it. But it's an awful comparison regardless. One look at the budgets of Rockstar and SI should tell you this. 

So basically I am paying the same amount for a game with an N times bigger budget.

Although I have no sustainable financial arguments for this, from a user's point of view I see FM as subscription based with rolling updates for a game that is constantly improving, adding features, not reinventing itself every 4-5 years.
 

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, 22smoje said:

So basically I am paying the same amount for a game with an N times bigger budget.
 

I put around 60 hours into RD2 before getting bored with it. I've currently played 5 times that amount on this FM alone, and it's only been out around a month. 

Anyway, FM doesn't need to 're-invent' itself. At its heart, it's the same game as the first one in 1993 in the CM days. But there's been improvement every year. No-one demands that you buy it every year. No-one even demands you play it. If you want to hunt rabbits and ride horses instead, fill your (cowboy) boots. 

I don't know why people who play FM have this attitude that they're somehow forced to buy it when it comes out. It's a computer game. If you don't like the direction it's going, do something else. It's why I stopped playing FIFA years ago. 

[Baodan]

Just now, Dagenham_Dave said:

I don't know why people who play FM have this attitude that they're somehow forced to buy it when it comes out.

I'm sure you understand that most people want the most updated version of FM for the correct database and updated player stats. Plain and simple, no?

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, Baodan said:

I'm sure you understand that most people want the most updated version of FM for the correct database and updated player stats. Plain and simple, no?

Point missed spectacularly, but my hopes are never high on here. 

[22smoje]

I might be ignorant, but I am not aware of real alternatives to FM. It's less of a force than it is monopoly. I see it not an attitude but a suggestion/request of a paying recurring customer.

[22smoje]

 

12 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I put around 60 hours into RD2 before getting bored with it. I've currently played 5 times that amount on this FM alone, and it's only been out around a month. 

I don't know why people who play FM have this attitude that they're somehow forced to buy it when it comes out. It's a computer game. If you don't like the direction it's going, do something else. It's why I stopped playing FIFA years ago. 

And I am sure there are songs you listen to 100 times more than others, yet still pay 3 EUR or whatever. Cars that you drive 10 thousand km in your life and others 1 milion, yet they cost the same. I mostly see the same car every year being modified here and there and being charged as if it were new.

The argument "if you don't like it, don't buy it" doesn't stick here in my opinion because of the lack of real competitors.

[Dagenham_Dave]

8 minutes ago, 22smoje said:

I might be ignorant, but I am not aware of real alternatives to FM.

Sit down and think about exactly why that is for a minute. I'll wait. I'm going to make a cup of tea. Looking forward to your answer when I get back. 

[22smoje]

2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Sit down and think about exactly why that is for a minute. I'll wait. I'm going to make a cup of tea. Looking forward to your answer when I get back. 

You could have just told me. My minute is up.

[noikeee]

There are no competitors because to create a game as in depth as FM you're looking at a 5 year development cycle, bare minimum (FM is essentially built over 25 years of code even if there's been a few rewrites - they still learned from the earlier experiences). And then you still have to go against the huge brand that FM is. Nevermind the huge scouting network SI has amassed of hundreds of people working for free for them to watch and rate players. It's never gonna happen, SI has locked up this market niche for them. Admittedly they've locked it up because the game is very good in terms of being very, very, very in depth, and there's tons of excellent work in the game, but people are right that there's essentially no competition and no game studio is going to gamble a huge sum of money in trying to create competition. Unless you're EA in which case they made a terrible competitor and rightly didn't catch on. 

[ViG1980]

20 hours ago, Svenc said:

Not sure if entirelly true. Naturally depends. But I had a save lower Tier in Norway where I rocked those leagues by signing Forwards with a significant physical Edge over the average defenders (+5+6 Points Attribute gap, easy to do lower league), and bombed them with crosses. But then they did have that Edge. That Edge was that big that it showed in the Forward's profile already, where (as a Forward!) they would oft win like 80%+ of their seasonal headers. That's a lot, as the CBs have the edge as they face the ball upon defending (and so have higher percentages usually). SO it may have simply worked by the sheer number of crosses/headers won. No AI Team had Forwards anywhere near those I signed.  I still have vids of that save, just seen.  
 

However, that save also highlighted how back then even with the most aggressive mentality and passing Settings, you barely had longer balls played back to front. That is from the CBs all the way up. Try it, OP. Nowadays you would simply needed to field a target man, and you would see These balls regularly, sometimes straight from the kick-off. In general, the distinction between a) Play and b) roles was nowhere near as profound back then. No wonder, as the roles had not yet been made a part of the Code, but were simply "slider Presets". A step that arguably has yet to happen for the "style Presets"...………………. and should imo.

FM 2012 was the last release btw. in which Matches didn't last the 90 minutes full. There's still legacy parts of the Code in there. It's in the quick sim. The number the quick sim (Competitions not on full Detail) churns out still fit FM 2012 and before. E.g. there is less shots made, less passes played, etc.

Those graphics look better than FM20  the pitch especially. 

[herne79]

4 minutes ago, noikeee said:

Unless you're EA in which case they made a terrible competitor and rightly didn't catch on. 

Or didn't follow standard EA operating procedure of simply buying the studio and sucking the life out of it.

[forameuss]

3 hours ago, 22smoje said:

In comparison, Read Dead Redemption 2 costs just as much as one FM copy and you have a much better experience than its predecessor from 2010.

...no it doesn't.  I picked up RDR2 on PC today for £43 through Epic Games (the only online retailer as far as I know) in a Black Friday reduction.  With seconds googling, I can see you can get FM for £27.  

And even if it did, it's a truly terrible comparison.  Another few seconds googling (very roughly) estimates that it cost over half a billion dollars to make, and took 7 years.  It's the Triple A-iest of all the Triple A games, and is in a completely different sport, literally and figuratively, to FM, which is a niche product on a yearly cycle.

To be honest, you'd have struggled to get that any more wrong in just one sentence.

  

2 hours ago, 22smoje said:

The argument "if you don't like it, don't buy it" doesn't stick here in my opinion because of the lack of real competitors.

 

That's starting to sound along the lines of the moon-howlers that frequent FIFA's communities...

It's an absolutely sound argument, because you have complete personal choice.  I know people like football or football management games, but if it's getting to the point that you're buying something that you clearly believe hasn't improved much in years, purely because you have this reliance on a particular genre, then the problem doesn't lie with the product.  Save your money, and find something else.  That's not meant to be flippant, it's just meant to be common sense.  Buying something you start out not enjoying, has to be one of the stupidest decisions you could make, compounded by then complaining about your own personal decision afterwards.

Edited November 27, 2019 by forameuss

[Tony Wright 747]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Or didn't follow standard EA operating procedure of simply buying the studio and sucking the life out of it.

I have to say I am surprised they didn't do that, I guess they thought that FM was too much of a niche market

[El_sambo]

18 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

And here's a pic of my own save on FM17 using the 2D as opposed to the 2D classic.  For me, I agree, this looks much better, but people wanted the 2D to be more like the classic version in the post above. And that's why they went in that direction. 

Thank you!! At last... Obviously this looks so much better 

[El_sambo]

3 hours ago, noikeee said:

I'm with the OP, FM12 was the last time I had fun on FM at all levels long term with all the teams I managed (I did have a couple good careers in FM15 and 18 but I struggled to enjoy those versions with some other teams). Sure, FM12 had a huge exploit, but something went off with the major game re-write for FM13 that never came back, and is hard to exactly express what it was. 

Maybe I just like my game easy, idk. Sue me for that, I play games to relax and enjoy myself, not to get consistently frustrated at a computer. The reality is every single version since at some stage really frustrated me, and FM20 is starting to go up there as one of the most frustrating so far, if not the single most frustrating one. I just don't understand the match engine as it is, and it doesn't give me the consistent feedback I expect from the instructions I hand out to the players. It's a bit odd because on the beta I played with Lyon and it was vaguely fun if not quite playing exactly as I expected from the players, but playing lower league it's been an absolute nightmare.

Lower league in FM20 is all over the shop, players make ridiculous decisions and there's insane patterns of play, in some matches I'll give away 7 one on ones and they miss all of them only to score from a long shot; in other matches they'll have a single one on one and score from them. Inside forwards don't score, don't provide cutbacks, only shoot from the sideline. Wide players on support duties score more than players on attack duties. Central advanced playmakers and deep strikers are utterly ignored in build-up, so you cannot build systems based on the creativity of such players. There are tons of long through balls or hoof ups that result in clear chances, and very few short through balls unless the AI goes very attacking and gives space. Fullbacks attack wildly even on defend duty. Wingbacks come inside way too much, win the byline crazy easily, and provide cutbacks better than inside forwards. Nobody crosses the ball. Shooting on the first touch (crosses, volleys, rebounds) is far more accurate than after actually controlling the ball first. Morale/motivation seems overpowered with huge swings of form in response, and behaves very strangely, players complacent on big matches, responding unpredictably. Results seem to come more from flashes of inspiration of players than from tactical instructions. 

Unfortunately I cannot go back to FM12 because all the other quality of life improvements in the game since (everything not related to the match engine) are indispensable. I really did try a couple of years ago but there were too many repetitive clicks that aren't in later versions, and worse, the game crashed a few times in my system. There's some features in later MEs that I have to admit I like a lot, I'm not a fan of the old sliders, and lots of the new roles that have been introduced since are nice, the options for pressing and playing from the back are great, etc. But it's not fun overall. 

I'm honestly thinking of abandoning FM for a while or permanently (after about 10 years of playing it almost all the time!!), it is a huge time sink in what's ultimately an unproductive hobby (I could be using my free time to advance my coding skills instead, or learning a language, etc etc), and it doesn't even feel fun anymore. Why play games when you're an adult and don't even enjoy them. 

You literally sum this up brilliantly 

[El_sambo]

No idea how old you guys are but I even remember cm95 ( I think) had a photo of every single football league clubs stadium and would show up as the background on that matchday. Great little touch. 

My whole point in this post I am so disappointed in this current versions engine I really am. Not results. Just the way it plays out. Its really shoddy. 

I feel cosmetically this game hasn't evolved barely in 10 years. I actually enjoyed 19 and now 20 I genuinely feel is for me unplayable. And I've been charged 10pounds more than usual for I think a worse product now. 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

3 hours ago, noikeee said:

I'm with the OP, FM12 was the last time I had fun on FM at all levels long term with all the teams I managed (I did have a couple good careers in FM15 and 18 but I struggled to enjoy those versions with some other teams). Sure, FM12 had a huge exploit, but something went off with the major game re-write for FM13 that never came back, and is hard to exactly express what it was. 

Maybe I just like my game easy, idk. Sue me for that, I play games to relax and enjoy myself, not to get consistently frustrated at a computer.

12 was one of the first in a long time where I could just play freely and enjoy the game.

It wasn't until FM13 came out and on here it was revealed that the only reason it was easy was due to the collision detection issue. Now, that really sucked, imagine that, having fun only to come on and be told you were probably exploiting the game unintentionally. >_>

12 will always have a fond place in my memory though, exploit or no it was just fun.

I did enjoy FM18 as well though. Couldn't get into 19 though.

[FMExperiment]

The ME hasn't improved enough recently and I think maybe people are starting to get a bit fed up with it. I get a free key for FM every year but then purchase it because I want to support the game... this is the first year I just say enough is enough. I won't play it or buy it with the ME in it's current state. As far as I'm concerned the only thing that will ever get me buying FM again is a heavily improved ME. I just don't understand why the ME has such little focus... do they really think no-one cares? I mean a lot of us still watch in 2D, we just want to see a variety of play/logical decision making. I want to feel like I'm watching a game of football, I don't care about graphics per se. I don't care if it's dots or fully fleshed out footballers. It means nothing to me if the graphics look crisp and the movements are fluid if I get 10 1v1s a game and my inside forwards never square the ball. There is just no immersion for me with the ME in it's current state. God I'm so disappointed this year. I long for the iteration where SI finally advertise and market a vastly improved ME, I'd be so hyped to feel like I'm actually watching football.

Edited November 27, 2019 by FMExperiment

[ChrisCo]

12 minutes ago, El_sambo said:

No idea how old you guys are but I even remember cm95 ( I think) had a photo of every single football league clubs stadium and would show up as the background on that matchday. Great little touch. 

My whole point in this post I am so disappointed in this current versions engine I really am. Not results. Just the way it plays out. Its really shoddy. 

I feel cosmetically this game hasn't evolved barely in 10 years. I actually enjoyed 19 and now 20 I genuinely feel is for me unplayable. And I've been charged 10pounds more than usual for I think a worse product now. 

You can download stadium backgrounds for FM that do this.

You're complaining about 'cosmetic' improvements, (I can only assume you're referring to the match engine as the UI has clearly advanced since FM12) yet were saying you want to play on 2D classic? 

[El_sambo]

7 minutes ago, FMExperiment said:

The ME hasn't improved enough recently and I think maybe people are starting to get a bit fed up with it. I get a free key for FM every year but then purchase it because I want to support the game... this is the first year I just say enough is enough. I won't play it or buy it with the ME in it's current state. As far as I'm concerned the only thing that will ever get me buying FM again is a heavily improved ME. I just don't understand why the ME has such little focus... do they really think no-one cares? I mean a lot of us still watch in 2D, we just want to see a variety of play/logical decision making. I want to feel like I'm watching a game of football, I don't care about graphics per se. I don't care if it's dots or fully fleshed out footballers. It means nothing to me if the graphics look crisp and the movements are fluid if I get 10 1v1s a game and my inside forwards never square the ball. There is just no immersion for me with the ME in it's current state. God I'm so disappointed this year. I long for the iteration where SI finally advertise and market a vastly improved ME, I'd be so hyped to feel like I'm actually watching football.

Amen to that 

[Marko1989]

Not only FM12, but every match engine is better than the current one. And the reasons why engine is not better with each year - are veterans. FM veterans. They will defend the game no matter what.

[HUNT3R]

4 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

Not only FM12, but every match engine is better than the current one. And the reasons why engine is not better with each year - are veterans. FM veterans. They will defend the game no matter what.

Please don't spread nonsense. You have no idea what feedback and bug reports the actual people involved with the game give.

[Phil930]

Rarely comment on the match engine, and having been playing FM/CM games since they first came out.  I don't know, can't quite put my finger on this version, but the match engine just doesn't quite flow.  The misses appear wild (player and AI), and its just very fragmented and not as representative of football I watch week in week out.  Last years version just felt more natural/fluid to watch.

The 1-1s are a killer also, and frustrating haha!

[RBKalle]

19 ore fa, noikeee ha scritto:

Unfortunately I cannot go back to FM12 because all the other quality of life improvements in the game since (everything not related to the match engine) are indispensable

And that's the very underestimated crux of the matter!

No matter how "great" we think the ME in FM1x was, we forget how much the rest of the game experience has improved since then... Small adjustments, bug fixes/patches and important additions to the gameworld, from transfers to tactics, from GUI to options, there have been way too many changes throughout the years for us to simply roll back a couple of FM iterations and still enjoy a years-old game.
Sure, ON PAPER and in our mind it'd still be great, but I bet in a few hours we'll grow frustrated due to the lack of the many options we've grown accustomed to.

It's a shame the ME hasn't improved at the same rate though... We're still coping with football abominations, and FM20 so far has been among the worst of the lot. The Penalty debacle, the constant side-switching, inconsistent 1-on-1, the absurd shooting from silly angles, the constant override of whatever tactical plan you thought you were setting up...

Older ME build had their share of issues, they've ALWAYS had. But it's indeed a bad sign if 7 years into the ME cycle we're still dealing with relatively basic problems like broken crossing (which depending on the year/build is either too effective of completely useless).
Again, the % ratios of the simulated games may be accurate, but the way those figures are obtained is surely questionable.

Denying it isn't doing FM and SI any good either. The franchise is where it is on merit, but also thanks to the dedicated fans' work/feedback/support. Suddenly telling that those who complain are "moon howlers" or being dismissive of ANY negative opinion as if they were all mindless rants of the "why can't I defeat Man City 10-0 with Bolton" sort is a dangerous game to play.