Is the balance of enjoying playing the game gone...?

[f.zaarour]

Hi all, 

Im a Fm player for years and this time it's hard to find the right balance of enjoyment in the game. Everyone can play the game on his way but i see that the focus on the game (matches and tactics) itself is increased a lot,

the difficulty went up where it's hard to win games as it was before. I'd like to manage my team, the selection, transfers and stuff but not wanting to put all the focus on the games itself and strategy all the time.

It felt now that the balance is lost in the game between all this parts. Losing games easily and finding a good tactic but where you need to change it again after a few matches

because the AI breaks it and so it drives you mad after a while which makes you losing the enjoyment of the game. If someone is a real tactic manager yeah he might have the fun finding the solutions all the time,

but its not only about that. I don't but it looks like that it is made difficult for us to win games easy as before. Well at least have a good balance. And I dont want to use exploit tactics and stuff too.

Is it now more realistic? Dont know, might be but if feels for me like the balance is not there anymore. I also didnt play for a while now, but gonna give it a shot again also with the new update. 

 

I dont know if other feel the same thing as I do and im sure that there are those who disagree which is fine ofcourse. But its just the way i feel about the game at the moment.

I dont want to struggle with the tactics all the time, even with big teams. I want to manage my team yeah but have a nice balance. Its still a game and it must not be that hard to win games

and stuff where the AI can drive you crazy. And using exploit tactics is not a solution for me. Many of those tactics are just crazy high pressing, high DF and LoE etc.

and that is also breaking the balance of enjoyment in the game. Its really sad and it brings worries for sure, well at last for me but i have seen many others talking about this.

Its maybe something the Producers of this game should think about because losing the balance of enjoyment in the game could bring alot of sadness to the players. 

 

But i have to admitt beside this, its still a lovely game, always was. I appreciate them for that. Maybe others think the same about this or maybe not. Everyone enjoys the game on his own way. Thanks. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by f.zaarour

[Maldini's Heir]

I'm finding this to be the least joyful game I've ever played (and I include playing against my cheating brother in Monopoly).

Every. Single. Incident. Ends in disappointment. It's uncanny.

• all last minute goals go to the computer (and no, it's not my tactics, I'm talking about in the 500 odd games I've played, whenever there's been a last minute goal it's usually gone to the computer designed as a means for crushing my spirit);
• if I'm losing or need a win, I can almost guarantee I will get a chance in the last minute and miss it (just to really rub it in);
• if my player is on 2 goals he will always be denied a hat trick which will usually involve the disappointment of hitting the post or having a goal disallowed;
• last night I lost 3:2 to 10 man Cagliari despite having over 40 shots on goal and 25 on target - this is just too regular occurrence to take seriously;
• when the other team gets a man sent off I curse the screen in the full knowledge that the game is doing it to simply troll me - I don't think I've ever beaten a team with 10 men (of course it's my tactics, my 11 men suddenly equal the other team's 10 men);
• every cup final ends in disappointment;
• every season falls apart at the end Kevin Keegan style;
• every new signing disappoints;
• when I win, it's usually without drama (so I don't get to punch the air), if I lose it's usually due to countless missed chances or a last minute goal (so I get to punch the screen). 

It's just one crushing, disappointment after the other. The way I offset this disappointment is to simply replay matches. When I replay matches many of the disappointing incidents simply disappear. 

That disappointing cup defeat? Well replay the final with the exact same tactics and team talk and you'll enter that parallel universe of joy. 

I would say the vast majority of games I've restarted (and I normally restart about 5 games per season) have resulted in me winning. All the bad things have go away and suddenly, inexplicably, "it's your tactics" start working and I get to feel a small piece of joy. Until the next crushing disappointment. Then the universe needs to be reset again.

I've never experienced anything like it. I did go back to FM19 but when the update came out I thought I'd give it another go. Things have improved but the game seems pre-programmed to deliver one disappointment after the next. 

It's uncanny.  

 

[likesiamesefish]

@Maldini's Heir I sincerely suggest that you take a break from playing the game for a bit mate.

[f.zaarour]

@Maldini's Heir I feel ya there. The match playing is just a part of the game and its sad that that part is messing up the enjoyment of the game for some players. Many points you clear out happens to me also sadly.

I did also rematching when games brings you frustration and suddenly you can win the game. I dont want to do it but i dont see any other option in those moments to understand where the issue is of 

losing or winning that same game. It seems like that you have to change your tactic all the time which is kinda unrealistic, especially if your a big team. As if Liverpool, City, Real or barca in their Pep time continuously had to change their tactic.

Maybe after a year or two that the winning tactic is over as opponents find out a counter tactic but not after every single match like the AI in FM does in some way. Its sad for sure. 

 

But as @likesiamesefish says might be an option for you. I had one and the mood is positive for me now to try to play again, also after the update. Just had to point this sadness out here to make that restart lol. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by f.zaarour

[Maldini's Heir]

35 minutes ago, likesiamesefish said:

@Maldini's Heir I sincerely suggest that you take a break from playing the game for a bit mate.

Frankly, it's got to the stage where I find it comical.

Anyway I've found my fix. Simply restart and the disappointments go away.

But maybe this is something that could be included in feedback. "Try and bring some joy to the world". That seems like a reasonable mission statement.... 

[Freakiie]

If you always look for the negative, you'll always find the negative to be honest.

That and a healthy dose of confirmation bias.

Oh and the AI doesn't break or figure out your tactics, but that topic has been discussed to death by now. No point in beating that horse again.

[Maldini's Heir]

24 minutes ago, f.zaarour said:

@Maldini's Heir I feel ya there. The match playing is just a part of the game and its sad that that part is messing up the enjoyment of the game for some players. Many points you clear out happens to me also sadly.

I did also rematching when games brings you frustration and suddenly you can win the game. I dont want to do it but i dont see any other option in those moments to understand where the issue is of 

losing or winning that same game. It seems like that you have to change your tactic all the time which is kinda unrealistic, especially if your a big team. As if Liverpool, City, Real or barca in their Pep time continuously had to change their tactic.

Maybe after a year or two that the winning tactic is over as opponents find out a counter tactic but not after every single match like the AI in FM does in some way. Its sad for sure. 

 

But as @likesiamesefish says might be an option for you. I had one and the mood is positive for me now to try to play again, also after the update. Just had to point this sadness out here to make that restart lol. 

But we don't need to change tactics constantly. When I restart I'm always careful to use the same tactics and team talks and this 90% of the time leads to a different result.

The really funny thing is that I usually save a game after I have picked my team and my tactics and about to submit my team. So when I replay the game the only thing I need to do is submit the team (exact same tactics and team) and give a team talk (which is usually the same team talk). But get this, the exact same team talk usually produces entirely different responses......

Now ok, I know it's all about probability and I'm sure if I walked into a room two times and said the same thing people would react, erm, differently.....but...what a mess....

Edited February 10, 2020 by Maldini's Heir

[Svenc]

The tricky part is that balance is highly subjective. The solution within FM's Simulation is an actually realistic feature request. One that would imo be actually crucial to balancing the game to a wider range of Players, whilst not Holding the AI development overly back longer term.

Quote

Rijkaard explained that "I was a motivator, Henk [ten Cate] was a strategist for the team". Indeed, Ten Cate was responsible for strategies and tactics of FC Barcelona during its training sessions. Together they managed Barça to a Champions League Trophy and two La Liga titles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henk_ten_Cate
 

Quote

Twelve months ago, Löw was known only as the tactical assistant at Jürgen Klinsmann's side.

https://www.dw.com/en/löw-celebrates-a-year-of-success-before-real-test-begins/a-2679005-0

The assistant Manager modules at the Moment aren't a) sophisticated enough b) and not particularly fun/engaging, as it leaves Little decisions for the Manager to still make. As the current assistant Managers are AI, they would not struggle to score last Minute Goals though as Maldini's H. does. Imagine assistants that: - Could optionally Show you how he's doing it (for sure not sitting on a loss with but a few minutes to go). - You could instruct what formation/playing style to favor. - Additionally instruct when exactly to apply a match strategic change and where (GUY, it's just a couple minutes left, we're behind on the scoreboard; let's try to still salvage something out of this // We're in the lead, let's try to preserve what we have etc.) Assistant AI could also be of different skill Levels too.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Svenc

[Maldini's Heir]

24 minutes ago, Svenc said:

The solution within FM's Simulation is an actually realistic feature request. One that would imo be actually crucial to balancing the game to a wider range of Players, whilst not Holding the AI development overly back longer term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henk_ten_Cate
 

https://www.dw.com/en/löw-celebrates-a-year-of-success-before-real-test-begins/a-2679005-0

The assistant Manager modules at the Moment aren't a) sophisticated enough b) and not particularly fun/engaging, as it leaves Little decisions for the Manager to still make. As the current assistant Managers are AI, they would not struggle to score last Minute Goals though as Maldini's H. does. Imagine assistants that: - Could optionally Show you how he's doing it (for sure not sitting on a loss with but a few minutes to go). - You could instruct what formation/playing style to favor. - Additionally instruct when exactly to apply a match strategic change and where (GUY, it's just a couple minutes left, we're behind on the scoreboard; let's try to still salvage something out of this // We're in the lead, let's try to preserve what we have etc.) Assistant AI could also be of different skill Levels too.

Good ideas.

I don't struggle with last minute goals necessarily.

My point is more that last minute goals are examples of where the game seems to produce disappointments more than moments of joy. A last minute goal is part of the ups and downs of football. In FM20 those ups and downs are more downs and downs.... 

[sporadicsmiles]

9 hours ago, f.zaarour said:

It felt now that the balance is lost in the game between all this parts. Losing games easily and finding a good tactic but where you need to change it again after a few matches

OP, if you are annoyed with playing games, there are skins you can download which have an instant result button. Your AM manages the side, but you get the credit for the results. It might be what you are looking for, since I guess the AI will handle changes during the match for you.

8 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

all last minute goals go to the computer (and no, it's not my tactics, I'm talking about in the 500 odd games I've played, whenever there's been a last minute goal it's usually gone to the computer designed as a means for crushing my spirit);

It is definitely your tactics. If you keep conceding late goals you are not reacting to the AI being more attacking to, well, look to score a late goal. Since you know this is happening and expect it, you should probably do something to stop it.

8 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

last night I lost 3:2 to 10 man Cagliari despite having over 40 shots on goal and 25 on target - this is just too regular occurrence to take seriously;

Shot count means nothing if all your shots are long range, or from set piece headers. It is not the number of chances you create, but the quality of the chances. Numbers like this provide no context at all. If you think it is a problem then make a bug report and say what is wrong with the chances you missed.

8 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

when the other team gets a man sent off I curse the screen in the full knowledge that the game is doing it to simply troll me - I don't think I've ever beaten a team with 10 men (of course it's my tactics, my 11 men suddenly equal the other team's 10 men);

I do not think I have ever lost to a team with 10 men. This is again tactical. If you cannot take advantage of the extra space then you need to re-evaluate how you approach these games.

8 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

• every cup final ends in disappointment;
• every season falls apart at the end Kevin Keegan style;
• every new signing disappoints;

These point to management of the squad. Particularly the first two. Manage expectations, remove pressure from players, give them confidence boosts. For example if you are not expected to mount a title challenge, do not say you will win the league even if you are sure you will. It will add pressure to your players, which will affect their performance. I will always take pressure off by saying "there is a lot of football left" or whatever.

 

8 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

The way I offset this disappointment is to simply replay matches. When I replay matches many of the disappointing incidents simply disappear. 

That disappointing cup defeat? Well replay the final with the exact same tactics and team talk and you'll enter that parallel universe of joy. 

I do not wonder you get no joy from victory if you do this. There is no joy in a victory where you know you will never lose. Defeat is something you have to take in order to get the highs of finally winning. So you lose a cup final, it will make the one you win sweeter in the end. You are of course free to play the game however you want, and I am not criticising you for that. Rather I offer an explanation for why you do not feel the highs of winning.

8 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

I would say the vast majority of games I've restarted (and I normally restart about 5 games per season) have resulted in me winning. All the bad things have go away and suddenly, inexplicably, "it's your tactics" start working and I get to feel a small piece of joy. Until the next crushing disappointment. Then the universe needs to be reset again.

Football is like that. And it is almost impossible to compare games you restarted. Football is inherently chaotic, so similar inputs can give wildly different outcomes. Unless you are extremely inferior to the team you are playing, you can expect to be able to win most games, and you will win some. But again the disappointment is part of the game. It needs to be embraced.

8 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

Things have improved but the game seems pre-programmed to deliver one disappointment after the next. 

It is not, that is just how life is. If you won every game easily and won every competition, you would be unhappy because there was no challenge. I'll say it again, but embrace the defeats. Embrace the disappointment. Because this makes the times you succeed even more wonderful. I could tell you countless stories about feeling joy from this game for finally overcoming some team or finally winning a competition after years of failure.

Then again, if you are not enjoying the game, just take a break.

[Maldini's Heir]

@  sporadicsmiles I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. What I'm listing are endless disappointments that occur in the game. They're just incidents. Disappointing incidents that I have very little control over.

It's not tactical because simply restarting games makes the problem go away.

If it was tactical then a restart should result in a similar result. Sure a restart might on occasion lead to a different result. Not 90% of the time. I can almost guarantee that a restart will deliver a different result. It's ridiculous. 

I remember a few years back replaying a game against Juve about 20 times to win and when I won I was genuinely delighted because I know I had done something, maybe to change the result. In FM20 it's a case of one restart, different result. 

"Probability" or "it's football" or "it's your tactics" are nonsense. It's the game.

But that's not even my biggest issue. My biggest issue is the lack of joy this game brings. In your selective quoting you skipped over one of the key ones. How the game denies my strikers hat tricks. This is not about winning or losing. In games where my strikers are scoring 2 goals I'm winning. Usually comfortably (winning is usually undramatic and joyless). But in those games the game will not even allow my striker score a hat trick. They'll hit the post or have a goal disallowed. I keep them on for the full 90 minutes but no joy.

If you want an "excuse", one thing I sometimes think is that because I play with Milan the players, just like real life, are just down on their luck, weak minded losers. And in fairness, if that is the case, SI has actually done a good job. But it still sucks. Especially when I play the game to escape the depressing reality of Milan.

Do something else - you say?

Well I've got a 3 month old so don't have time to play a proper football game in real life or PES or FIFA.

So in the year 2020 I'm stuck with this.

It's fine. I'm a kid of the 80s so I'm used to work arounds. Restarting games is my workaround.

 

[Valleyg]

I disagree that it's necessary to change tactics all the time. My first save this year was 5 seasons with benfica. It helps me personally to pick a strong team in a league with only a few other strong teams. I do this for the first save and then pick a harder challenge for my second save. I regularly play around 20 pre season friendlies to fine tune my tactics. I then went the first 2 league seasons unbeaten and was losing finalist in champions league both years. Once I had played the first pre season friendlies, I didn't change tactics for 4 seasons and lost a total of 5 league games in the whole time. The tactics weren't anything special and I am not claiming to be a football manager tactical genius. I also often found that immediately after a surprise league defeat I would go on an 8 or 9 match winning streak without changing anything. The most important thing I have found is work on a good tactic or 2 before you start your first season, then it's all about keeping your players happy.

[Neil Brock]

Not trying to dismiss any of the comments in here as it's all down to your own experience and it's interesting to hear how some people are finding the game. Me personally, on my home save with Oxford United without signing any players first season I finished 2nd and secured promotion from League One. Second season again with only a handful of signings and despite being predicted to finish 24th, having the lowest wage budget and amongst the lowest CA (so I was told by someone else I got to check the save #nospoilers), I won the league with 97 points. At one point went 22 games unbeaten. No reloading, no 'cheating' just playing through and managing it one game at a time. 

All I've got is three tactics which I created myself. One I use to attack at home or away against teams weaker than me, a counter tactic I use away when against a team much better than me and a tactic which I use to shut games down when I'm winning in the last 10-20 minutes. Nothing unusual or asymmetrical. 

The AI hasn't 'cracked' my tactic - which isn't actually possible anyway. The AI just adjusts their tactics based on your team's perceived ability which is decided by a number of factors such as form, league position and player rep. I've really enjoyed my save (funny how that happens when you're winning) and fully expect to find it a lot more difficult given barely a single player in my squad can be considered top flight quality. 

It's quite simplistic to look at the game and say "well if you replay a match it should be exactly the same". The game has never been like that, it always takes the various factors into account when running through the match, but any slight difference within the game itself can completely change the shape of what happens. One misplaced pass can completely rewrite what should be a comfortable win for team A. From one pass that can change the confidence and scope of the entire match.  

Really have to make this very clear, as a Football Manager whilst you shape your team and make the decisions leading into the match, you can only influence a match so much. There's a chance you make every decision bang on with regard to tactics, team selection and build-up but you don't win the match. That's always been the reality of being a football manager. Likewise you may get things completely wrong but there's still that chance things will work out in your favour. What you can do is make the odds as strong as possible for your team for each match. 

[Grifty]

52 minutes ago, Maldini's Heir said:

But that's not even my biggest issue. My biggest issue is the lack of joy this game brings. In your selective quoting you skipped over one of the key ones. How the game denies my strikers hat tricks. This is not about winning or losing. In games where my strikers are scoring 2 goals I'm winning. Usually comfortably (winning is usually undramatic and joyless). But in those games the game will not even allow my striker score a hat trick. They'll hit the post or have a goal disallowed. I keep them on for the full 90 minutes but no joy.

If you want an "excuse", one thing I sometimes think is that because I play with Milan the players, just like real life, are just down on their luck, weak minded losers. And in fairness, if that is the case, SI has actually done a good job. But it still sucks. Especially when I play the game to escape the depressing reality of Milan.

Do something else - you say?

Well I've got a 3 month old so don't have time to play a proper football game in real life or PES or FIFA.

So in the year 2020 I'm stuck with this.

Honestly mate, if you are this unhappy with the game and have this view, just go spend time with your 3 month old - you'll be far happier for it.

Don't force yourself to play it. Have a break, you'll get the itch to play in a few months and feel a lot better about playing.

[Maldini's Heir]

1 hour ago, Grifty said:

Honestly mate, if you are this unhappy with the game and have this view, just go spend time with your 3 month old - you'll be far happier for it.

Don't force yourself to play it. Have a break, you'll get the itch to play in a few months and feel a lot better about playing.

Thanks. I’m spending plenty of time with my 3 month old.

Like I said, I need an outlet for football. This is what passes for an outlet.

I think the thing that we should be taking from my posts is not me, it’s the game. They need to produce a better game. 

Football is a game of ups and downs. We need more ups.

PS I’m not as depressed as it sounds. I’m just very good at being dramatic. Like my 3 month old.

[Nathozz]

Realistically if you restarted any game in real life you’d get a different result? 

Like Neil mentions a wayward pass would change the result of the game. A player getting injured during a game would change the result. 

If Gerrard didn’t slip then Liverpool might have won the league. 

If you restarted the AC Milan vs Liverpool Champions League final then it would be a completely different result.

Just a couple of examples. 
 

FM has its quirks and some issues but sometimes it’s a little bit TOO easy. 

Maybe watch the game on match commentary instead of 3D?  It has its limitations on what it can show you. 

 

[Tyburn]

3 minutes ago, Nathozz said:

Realistically if you restarted any game in real life you’d get a different result? 

Like Neil mentions a wayward pass would change the result of the game. A player getting injured during a game would change the result. 

If Gerrard didn’t slip then Liverpool might have won the league. 

If you restarted the AC Milan vs Liverpool Champions League final then it would be a completely different result.

Just a couple of examples. 
 

FM has its quirks and some issues but sometimes it’s a little bit TOO easy. 

Maybe watch the game on match commentary instead of 3D?  It has its limitations on what it can show you. 

 

It’s why I watch on 2d! (Plus I like pictures of the stadiums I’m playing at in the background)

[Sardaukar]

For me, it's just a football simulation. If something in match really annoys me, I'll restart. It's not like AI's feelings would get hurt.

 

 

 

[Maldini's Heir]

1 hour ago, Nathozz said:

Realistically if you restarted any game in real life you’d get a different result? 

Like Neil mentions a wayward pass would change the result of the game. A player getting injured during a game would change the result. 

If Gerrard didn’t slip then Liverpool might have won the league. 

If you restarted the AC Milan vs Liverpool Champions League final then it would be a completely different result.

Just a couple of examples. 
 

FM has its quirks and some issues but sometimes it’s a little bit TOO easy. 

Maybe watch the game on match commentary instead of 3D?  It has its limitations on what it can show you. 

 

Not every time. A restart should not result in a different result nearly every single time.

You’re right the game is a little but too easy. The results that go against always seem to be because of incidents. Realistically I should probably just be getting beaten more. No need for near misses. 

[Tyburn]

Enjoying playing the game an issue? ... Try and get a network game going. 

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, Nathozz said:

Realistically if you restarted any game in real life you’d get a different result? 

I think his Point is that he wins those Matches on the reload most of the time. Depending on how often this goes, it's not so much his tactics™ -- but his match Management approach to certain Kind of games. Likely the ones where the AI "parks the bus" and soaks up shots. If he takes an early lead, the win is guaranteed. Let's say his tactics is good enough for that 70-80% of the time -- the key then to figure out is how to get that a little higher with a plan B tailored for stretching packed defenses. Is it something about his starting set-up? What does he do if the clock is running out and the opener still isn't coming? What happens if the AI and if by luck takes the lead? At the Moment, he may rely on scoring the opener a bit too much. Which makes AI Players lose confidence, and results in the AI not playing that defensively any longer, or else it would lose the match. More attacking AI attacks = more space. So the same match can either result in a 1-0 win for the AI or a trashing.

That said, I find it disheartening that Players can't even take the Point Drops on the chin, and the rampant save Progression Neil talks About doesn't Sound too appealing to me personally either. What's a Football sim without ever getting embroiled in a Relegation fight, despite having this weak a Squad? I've played Management games on Commodore 64 that had more varied seasonal Scenarios to offer, and made a Promotional season a challenge as the Squads usually weren't up to par.

That balance Thing.  

Edited February 11, 2020 by Svenc

[thiagoanjo]

Football happens inside pitch, doesnt matter if you buy good players, change training, etc, if yiu dont manage to win the match, you will be sacked, and for win you need pay attention A LOT on tactics. For you to be a manager you need to learn tactics and all about strategy, otherwise you can handle the other aspects and sign a good assistent manager to do the job that you dont want. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by thiagoanjo

[f.zaarour]

Thanks everyone for their input on this. Its really nice. Seen some nice tips too and those who dont agree its oke too. Everyone has his view on the game and on this matter which is cool. 

Its about having the right balance of enjoyment but the inside of it can be different for each other. About the game match, is it not also that it has been more important now to view

a game like real 90 minutes to see what happens and where it goes wrong etc. As for me i wont do that, to much time too and to much focus on the match game itself it would be also.

But looks like the focus on that is more than before.

 

Its fine to speak about this, as to refind the joy of the game for some of us. Im quite sure some will take notes to some of the input of you guys.

And i will too, and im sure too that i will give it a try again. The game is just too nice to leave it haha. 

[Maldini's Heir]

10 hours ago, Svenc said:

I think his Point is that he wins those Matches on the reload most of the time. Depending on how often this goes, it's not so much his tactics™ -- but his match Management approach to certain Kind of games. Likely the ones where the AI "parks the bus" and soaks up shots. If he takes an early lead, the win is guaranteed. Let's say his tactics is good enough for that 70-80% of the time -- the key then to figure out is how to get that a little higher with a plan B tailored for stretching packed defenses. Is it something about his starting set-up? What does he do if the clock is running out and the opener still isn't coming? What happens if the AI and if by luck takes the lead? At the Moment, he may rely on scoring the opener a bit too much. Which makes AI Players lose confidence, and results in the AI not playing that defensively any longer, or else it would lose the match. More attacking AI attacks = more space. So the same match can either result in a 1-0 win for the AI or a trashing.

That said, I find it disheartening that Players can't even take the Point Drops on the chin, and the rampant save Progression Neil talks About doesn't Sound too appealing to me personally either. What's a Football sim without ever getting embroiled in a Relegation fight, despite having this weak a Squad? I've played Management games on Commodore 64 that had more varied seasonal Scenarios to offer, and made a Promotional season a challenge as the Squads usually weren't up to par.

That balance Thing.  

That's probably right since it's also why I struggle against 10 men etc. Although the ME representation of "struggling to overcome park the bus" should not be - here's a load of missed chances....I would've thought a better representation would be lots of passing and looking for space (if your tactic is work the ball into the box) or direct passing and knock downs being blocked (which would be more exciting).  

But anyway, this isn't a tactics thread. It's whether or not the game is enjoyable thread (so should probably just go into feedback). 

Whatever my tactics, I should still be able to experience joy in this game like I have in other games. That is the issue. The lack of joy. 

[Snorks]

I think the issue here is people's own expectations of the game. It is designed in such a way that we can be as deeply immersed in the FM universe as we we choose, don;t like the intricacies of the training? Delegate to the AssMan. Don;t enjoy the scouting? Delegate to Chief Scout of DoF. Leave youth development to the staff if you choose to do so, leave all financial investment decisions to the board and so on and so on.

At the end of the day though, this is a football management simulation and ultimately, we play it to mange a simulated football team - even at it's most basic, full-delegation we still need to manage the team which means, tactics. Even though, if you want to, you can pull up one of the pre-set tactics and go with that, or download one and go with that.

The way the ME works is so full of tiny little variables every second of the 90mins that a different result is far more likely if you quit and restart, than the same result from the same stats. So the same tactic can end up having different results (by which I mean, full statistical results rather than the simple scoreline)

So, if you really aren't enjoying it, then walk away. I think most of us do it at some point for a while. I find I get the 'itch' again after a week without playing though, depending on what else is happening in life, and if you have a 3 month old, I can imagine there is a lot of fun stuff happening around your place at the moment.  I have  16 and 14 yr old (both girls), I have a collection of Bonsai trees and Football Manager to keep me sane and keep me occupied when I'm not Uber Driver Dad.

The game is what it is, it has many built-in options for you to customise the way you want to play it and enjoy it. 

[Maldini's Heir]

4 hours ago, Snorks said:

I think the issue here is people's own expectations of the game. It is designed in such a way that we can be as deeply immersed in the FM universe as we we choose, don;t like the intricacies of the training? Delegate to the AssMan. Don;t enjoy the scouting? Delegate to Chief Scout of DoF. Leave youth development to the staff if you choose to do so, leave all financial investment decisions to the board and so on and so on.

At the end of the day though, this is a football management simulation and ultimately, we play it to mange a simulated football team - even at it's most basic, full-delegation we still need to manage the team which means, tactics. Even though, if you want to, you can pull up one of the pre-set tactics and go with that, or download one and go with that.

The way the ME works is so full of tiny little variables every second of the 90mins that a different result is far more likely if you quit and restart, than the same result from the same stats. So the same tactic can end up having different results (by which I mean, full statistical results rather than the simple scoreline)

So, if you really aren't enjoying it, then walk away. I think most of us do it at some point for a while. I find I get the 'itch' again after a week without playing though, depending on what else is happening in life, and if you have a 3 month old, I can imagine there is a lot of fun stuff happening around your place at the moment.  I have  16 and 14 yr old (both girls), I have a collection of Bonsai trees and Football Manager to keep me sane and keep me occupied when I'm not Uber Driver Dad.

The game is what it is, it has many built-in options for you to customise the way you want to play it and enjoy it. 

A 3 month old is definitely more fun than this game...

But that is the issue, and the question posed by the person who started this thread. People's expectations of a game is primarily to have fun. I have had fun with other versions. I expect to have fun with this version.

I've punched the air once in this game. That's a poor return for the number of games I've played.

[Tyburn]

It’s quite simple really. Either play the game in a way that you can find some enjoyment or keep banging your head against a wall.

[grade]

I do believe, for some years, the game feels too much of a job.

Sure, that game is entirely a game simulation of a real job, but we can't forget, that it is a game at the end of the day and we play for fun.

I would trim down some of the features and making other work to its full potential or, just give us a FMT editor and Stadium Editor, I would be happy.

[ralala]

I'll chime in a bit on the "restart the match" part of the topic: I always used to do this in my younger days whenever I percieved a result to be "unrealistic" or "unfair".

As I grew older, I figured spending 300-500 hours on each years addition was wasted if the trophies I'd won was due to reloading cup finals and the like.

 

I adjusted my view of FM somewhat, and found it quite good at simulating that "the ball is round", as we say in Norway.

And with that I learned to accept that, sometimes, **** will happen. You'll get relegated. The GK will get sent of five minutes in to the CL final. You'll get sacked and struggle to get another job for some time.

 

 

[likesiamesefish]

4 minutes ago, ralala said:

As I grew older, I figured spending 300-500 hours on each years addition was wasted if the trophies I'd won was due to reloading cup finals and the like.

Yeah I never understand it when I see someone who says they like to save scum, just totally ruins the game.

To be honest I wouldn't really mind if the odd bit of bad luck had been hard coded. I'd absolutely love it if it turned out there was something like that and those who save scum are just delaying their bad luck to the next game but because they can't accept it they keep going until they scrape a 1-0 win, then rinse and repeat for the next game! Sadly, I am quite sure this isn't the case.

[Tyburn]

I feel the same about reloading. Did it in my youth. But now I want the full experience. Makes winning so much more enjoyable and rewarding.

I also only play now in a network game so couldn't reload even if i wanted to.

[Viking]

I just can't enjoy FM20 so far. I can't say that it's one specific thing that does it, but I don't know what it is. It just feels like a chore to play, more so than ever. Or stale. I lose interest after half a season, and the one time I manage to get thru to season two the stupid board suddenly requires me to play attacking football the next season. Out of the blue. Haven't played anymore after that. And unless the transfer update bring something radical to the table, I doubt I will pick it up again.

I wish I could say that it's me, that I am tired of the genre, or that I've grown too old for these kind of games. But I still very much enjoy other manager games (EHM, for example), and I have been a bitter old man for the last 25 years. It's sad,, because FM has been such a big part of my life for so long.

And no, FMT is not for me. I love the statistics, complexity, realism, and everything FM is about. And I want to be able to use an editor.

And I will be back for FM21.

 

[thiagoanjo]

9 minutos atrás, Viking disse:

I just can't enjoy FM20 so far. I can't say that it's one specific thing that does it, but I don't know what it is. It just feels like a chore to play, more so than ever. Or stale. I lose interest after half a season, and the one time I manage to get thru to season two the stupid board suddenly requires me to play attacking football the next season. Out of the blue. Haven't played anymore after that. And unless the transfer update bring something radical to the table, I doubt I will pick it up again.

I wish I could say that it's me, that I am tired of the genre, or that I've grown too old for these kind of games. But I still very much enjoy other manager games (EHM, for example), and I have been a bitter old man for the last 25 years. It's sad,, because FM has been such a big part of my life for so long.

And no, FMT is not for me. I love the statistics, complexity, realism, and everything FM is about. And I want to be able to use an editor.

And I will be back for FM21.

 

Why cant you use the pre and in-game FM 20 editors? 

[Viking]

2 hours ago, thiagoanjo said:

Why cant you use the pre and in-game FM 20 editors? 

Can you use the FM editors with FMT nowadays?

[thiagoanjo]

3 horas atrás, Viking disse:

Can you use the FM editors with FMT nowadays?

Oh, I thought we can use them on FMT =[

[grade]

1 hour ago, thiagoanjo said:

Oh, I thought we can use them on FMT =[

Nope. FMT hans't an editor available for it. At least at this point.

[Maldini's Heir]

On the restart thing, I'd say a few things:

Firstly, I do this thing where I will often replay the first 4 or 5 games of a season to test tactics. I also don't think it's good to start a brand new job as a manager with a defeat. Come on. 

Secondly, once I get through the first few games then the intention is to get through the season without restarts. Restarts are often cause by a rage quit. Then the choice is either to carry on or go back to the start again. The further I am into a season the harder it is to simply restart the whole thing.  

Thirdly, a unique problem with this game is just how often a re-start will lead to a different result. So when I rage quit and replay I immediately am rewarded with a better result. Above I gave examples of past games where it would take multiple restarts to figure out how to defeat a team. In FM20 a simple restart changes the outcome. That just makes the whole thing feel completely arbitrary and that ruins the experience as much as anything. 

Fourthly, the rage will build up slowly over a number of games. It's not one game where things go against me, it's multiple games in a row that just chip away. In what world do I want to see my team not score in 6 games? Only to restart the 6th game and my team suddenly scores? Who knows, had I let it go to 7 then that might have been when the random result generator allowed me to score again but it all seems very arbitrary. 

Fifthly (I'm not even sure if the -ly is necessary), on two occasions now I have been treated to the full Kevin Keegan experience. My team has managed to throw away 12 and 15 point leads as the game turns on me at the end of the season. Again, who wants that experience? Twice. It's just beyond depressing. Anyway, one restart and.......the rot stops. Why?

Many of these problems are unique to FM20. 

[Tyburn]

There’s a lot of rage here. 

For me it’s a journey. It’s taken 6 seasons for me to be anywhere near winning a league title. It’s realistic.

Losing by goal difference last season was crushing, but it happens.

If I win the league this season it’ll be even more rewarding. If I lose again on goal difference then I will be crushed again. But there’s always next season.

I’ll win it eventually and the feeling of euphoria will be all the sweeter for the pain I’ve suffered previously. 

And because it’s realistic.

[MNUFC84]

The ridiculous complaints in this thread are honestly why I avoid message boards. It comes down to this: if you truly believe there is something wrong with the game provide me with proof. Not your feeling or beliefs but cold hard data that shows you aren't just complaining out of frustration. Because for all the complaints you lack that data. Your whole belief that reloading proves anything is why I ignore complaints without some data backing. It doesn't. I would expect two games to differentiate and would be more worried if two entirely separate instances of something worked out largely the same. 

 

It just really sounds like you're looking for justification or approval from the community for save scumming. 

[XaW]

23 hours ago, sidslayer said:

I feel the same about reloading. Did it in my youth. But now I want the full experience. Makes winning so much more enjoyable and rewarding.

I also only play now in a network game so couldn't reload even if i wanted to.

I think most FM'ers did the restart thing as a kid. I also used the editor for CM96/97 (or was it 97/98?) to give all players in my team 20s in everything and just steamroll through everything. Even took over my opponents teams and fired their players and such.

Now, however, I find much more joy in doing it as it should be. Take the punches on the chin and go with it. One of my first games in FM20 was the youth players only in England when I took over a newly promoted team in the lowest tier. Played for 10 season before getting relegated out of the playable leagues and getting sacked because of it. Extremely annoying, but also very fun to fight for survival for so many seasons.

My current game si the same, though this time in Wales. At the moment I've gotten Caersws into the Champions League group stage, but I'm still getting thumped by the big teams. Lost 10-1 to Atletico Madrid a few years ago... Last season I did a full domestic sweep winning the league and all domestic cups (and the Irn-Bru as well) without every having bought any player throughout the save. It's going to take a long time to do the ultimate goal, to win the Champions League, but it will be an awesome achievement if it happens.

And if I had restarted when i had bad results along the way, that achievement would note be anything close.

I'd love to have someone to pay network games with, my issue is that everyone have started families and it's really hard to arrange things then.

[CFuller]

Oh yeah, I used to be a reloader in my youth as well. I also had a few saves where I would make Arsenal win every match 25-0 or something, and also where I would release all of Man Utd's, Chelsea's and Spuds' players and get them all relegated to Division 1.  

These days, I'm strongly anti-reload. I've only had one 'rage-quit' in the last five years, and that was after conceding a 90th-minute winner at the end of a very rough FM19 session. Even then, I felt like I couldn't continue the save until my team lost that match (which took about a dozen restarts, to be fair)... and even after that, almost all enjoyment I had for that save had gone.

The truth of the matter is, stuff happens.

Do you know how it feels to throw away a Serie A scudetto because your team couldn't win at home in the final few weeks, when it really mattered? I do.

Or how it feels to miss out on a promotion after Portsmouth scored two injury-time goals at Bradford on the final day? I do.

Or how it feels to be relegated after losing the second leg of your play-off 6-4 after extra-time, against the team that you beat to win promotion a year earlier? Believe me, I do.

All of those stories were from my FM19 careers with Fiorentina, Shrewsbury and Lyn. Sure, it would've been nice to end over five decades of hurt in Florence, or to bring Championship football to New Meadow, or even just to keep Lyn in the Eliteserien for a second season...

...but it's those setbacks which make those moments of genuine joy so special. Losing in the play-offs in the Conference Premier, League Two, League One AND the Championship made it so much sweeter when my FM13 Dagenham & Redbridge team finally won a play-off campaign, beating Blackburn at Wembley to reach the Premier League.

Football Manager is not like most other video games. Failure is as much a part of FM as success. If you can't handle failure, and you feel the need to reload just because your elite goalkeeper made one costly mistake (for example), then I'm afraid FM probably isn't the right game for you.

Edited February 13, 2020 by CFuller

[enigmatic]

On 10/02/2020 at 23:50, Maldini's Heir said:

But we don't need to change tactics constantly. When I restart I'm always careful to use the same tactics and team talks and this 90% of the time leads to a different result.

Try saving and reloading after winning and you'll find that also often leads to a different result  

[Rashidi]

When I first started playing this game I  did all the normal things:

1. Smashed the monitor
2. Rage Quit
3. Wife sued me for divorce citing FM addiction
4. Download tactics
5. Download them again
6. Restart the game
7. Edit the game
8. Buy a new computer
9. Smash the new computer
10. Blame SI

Then I decided to actually sit down and understand the game in parts. I found someone here on the forums, many years ago, and followed his thread. It was a logical simple way of approaching the game. I decided to do the same thing, now I take great pride in smashing the AI.

[andu1]

And i thought i was the only one having Rage outbursts when the game is frustrating. Although i never smashed anything yet.

[djpdavey]

I used to restart all the time then i started not enjoying the cheating as there was no joy in it. I do however restart the odd game. conceeded an own goal in my previous 2 games and it happened again and I lost 1-0. I thought that was stupid! so I restarted that last game, lost 1-0 but it wasn't a ridiculous 3rd own goal in a row so I was happy to accept it.

I wish there was more feedback in the games in the analysis to show why players do what they do for example why my fb choose to head the ball across their own box leading me to rage and want to sell my young backup full back. This TIT was in the team one game during my first choice FB suspension and he heads it across his own 6 yard box late in the game when winning 1-0. I want FM to tell me why in the analysis of this header for example.

10 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

I have been treated to the full Kevin Keegan experience. My team has managed to throw away 12 and 15 point leads as the game turns on me at the end of the season. Again, who wants that experience? Twice. It's just beyond depressing. Anyway, one restart and.......the rot stops. Why?

This will always happen! I no it's me not reacting but can result in 10-15 games without a win

 

On 11/02/2020 at 09:32, Valleyg said:

I disagree that it's necessary to change tactics all the time. My first save this year was 5 seasons with benfica. It helps me personally to pick a strong team in a league with only a few other strong teams. I do this for the first save and then pick a harder challenge for my second save. I regularly play around 20 pre season friendlies to fine tune my tactics. I then went the first 2 league seasons unbeaten and was losing finalist in champions league both years. Once I had played the first pre season friendlies, I didn't change tactics for 4 seasons and lost a total of 5 league games in the whole time. The tactics weren't anything special and I am not claiming to be a football manager tactical genius. I also often found that immediately after a surprise league defeat I would go on an 8 or 9 match winning streak without changing anything. The most important thing I have found is work on a good tactic or 2 before you start your first season, then it's all about keeping your players happy.

I'm going to try this! 

[f.zaarour]

I totally agree with you guys that rematching saves is not the way. I did it also, as it felt for me to know the issue in some games how to beat the AI
and to know which tactic settings are the best to win. Not that i want to say its oke to do it, because it should not be the way how to play it for sure. 

I see alot of opinions which is nice. Some of us can use it for sure to refind the joy. As for the game tactics, its also important
to understand what some of the settings do and that might be the tricky one, as you have just one shot in a game. If it works cool but if not,
your worried and start changing things again. And maybe thats why a rematch is solution for some of us. 

But i agree that the game should be played in its legal (lol) way. But especially to feel the joy of improving and winning in a straight way. At the end we all
want to enjoy the game. And that is the point of my topic, finding that balanced joy in the game. Everyone does it on his own way. But its nice to speak 
about it, so maybe some of us might find it usefull, some information, to refind that joy. 

Edited February 13, 2020 by f.zaarour

[Maldini's Heir]

Ironically I probably did less restarts as a kid and have certainly never needed to restart a game as many times as FM20. 

[XaW]

18 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Wife sued me for divorce citing FM addiction

For a few years my missus made me tell her when I played FM so she would know what all the shouting what about when it eventually happened. A bit older now, so the rage happens less, but the few times it still happens, she shakes her head and asks: "Playing that manager game again?"...

10 hours ago, f.zaarour said:

its also important to understand what some of the settings do and that might be the tricky one

Exactly right, and also why I keep telling people to not overcomplicate their tactic without having a reason for adding it. I always start with a very basic formation and player roles I think will fit what I want to do. Then set the mentality and play a few games to see what happens. Then I add one, or perhaps a few times, two instructions at max and play a few more. Usually, the more tactics the higher risk of being counterproductive (unless you REALLY know what you are doing) is my experience.

[f.zaarour]

17 hours ago, Maldini's Heir said:

Ironically I probably did less restarts as a kid and have certainly never needed to restart a game as many times as FM20. 

Lol the other way around. Esp. i felt it hard to accept it in some games (vs small teams) which are just not cool to accept a loose. But i agree with those who say the joy is there to go on and find the solution to succes.

The key is there to go on and play like that, but the hard thing is to understand the tactics, what buttons do what etc. like @XaW says, when it goes bad its not smart to go raging and clicking all buttons and stuff. But the hard thing 

is also if you want to understand tactics better you kinda need to watch the game full time to see what happens, how your team plays etc. and that is something i dont want to do, way to much time. And maybe a rematch is the easy 

losers way (lol) to try another chance with some clicks in the tactic to find the solution and the right tactic to play. Well anyway, i will defo try it out and just go on, even if it goes wrong. And just not changing tactics too much immediatly. 

 

And hopefully refinding the joy in the lovely game. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by f.zaarour

[baris28]

On 11.02.2020 at 16:02, Svenc said:

That said, I find it disheartening that Players can't even take the Point Drops on the chin, and the rampant save Progression Neil talks About doesn't Sound too appealing to me personally either. What's a Football sim without ever getting embroiled in a Relegation fight, despite having this weak a Squad? I've played Management games on Commodore 64 that had more varied seasonal Scenarios to offer, and made a Promotional season a challenge as the Squads usually weren't up to par.

That balance Thing.  

Yes sad. People can play very complicated strategy games at  very old age but it won't fit todays market. Struggle with tactics and squad is good. I can tell nostalgia about CM 2001 20 years ago at university.  But what is that for, meaning?

 I think SI should solve either AI teams difficulty in tactical planning or the simulation about how the goals scored. I don't mind playing a game against strong AI.