What REALLY improves youth intake?

[LetsNotScoreGoals]

I've played this franchise for a while now and I've NEVER had any good intakes in what must have been at least 50 seasons. The one time I had consistently good youths was when I was playing Palermo, and I started getting them right from the start even before I had upgraded anything (so I began suspecting that the system was rigged or flawed).

Recently I decided to start a cheaty save with Maidstone where I immediately gave myself the best facilities, best staff, as well as a collection of feeder affiliates to see if I can get some godly regens. The results were staggering.

In my first season, I got the only good regens — a goalie and a winger, who stayed and gave results even in the Premier League. They were both English!

The six intakes afterwards were completely garbage, and all the affiliates did was give them interesting nationalities. I can only conclude that facilities and staff did not matter, affiliates were useless, and best of all, reputation doesn't matter either! I started at one star rep (that's when I got the two good regens), and ended with 3, all along the way the boost in rep did nothing.

So I wonder if anyone has actually found out if everything is really cosmetics and RNG and a bit of pre-destiny, or if it's really proven that what the game provides actually helps in any way shape or form.

Edited December 29, 2020 by LetsNotScoreGoals

[BamBamBam]

Must admit, i can't remember getting any wonderkids in playing 30+ seasons over the last 2 versions of FM. Just bad luck?

[LetsNotScoreGoals]

15 minutes ago, BamBamBam said:

Must admit, i can't remember getting any wonderkids in playing 30+ seasons over the last 2 versions of FM. Just bad luck?

Past a certain point, it's no longer bad luck but just bad design. If you're the world's leading team with the best staff and great connections in the footballing world, and have been going for a few years, its not realistic to have consistently poor youth intakes.

[p0p0c4t3p3t3l]

https://theresonlyoneball.com/2020/06/25/football-manager-2020-youth-development/

[XaW]

Here is what SI have told us about the intakes:

Quote

Newgens & Youth Intake

Youth Recruitment
The Club’s recruiting of Juniors, those of home and foreign origin.

Youth Facilities
The training facilities available for Juniors (only).
Does NOT apply to visible players already at the club. All visible players currently at the club use Training Facilities regardless of age.

Junior Coaching
The quality and quantity of Junior Coaches at the Club.

Nation Youth Rating
The potential maximum quality and quantity of Juniors produced in that Nation.

Game Importance
How important football is considered to be in that Nation.

Producing Newgens
The Clubs with the best Youth Recruitment will generally pick up the best Junior talent from that Nation first, the scale of that talent being determined by the Nation Youth Rating and Game Importance. The lower the Youth Recruitment the further down the pecking order a club will find itself. Two clubs with identical Youth Recruitment will be sorted by Club Reputation. Being lower down this pecking order does not mean quality Newgens cannot be produced, it simply lowers the chances.

Youth Facilities and Junior Coaching then simulate and determine how that Junior progresses in the Club’s Junior system until a Newgen is produced and appears in game. It is at this point that the Current Ability (CA) and Potential Ability (PA) of the newgens are decided. The above factors all contribute to both CA and PA equally.

Head of Youth Development (HoYD)
The club’s HoYD is responsible for bringing Newgens into the club. He will influence what “type” of players are selected and can partially or fully pass on his personality to some of these Newgens. The “type” of players selected refers to a player’s position and style, for instance a HoYD with a preferred 4-5-1 formation and a Technical Coaching Style may produce more technically styled midfielders than another HoYD.
The HoYD will also influence the rare “freak” or exceptional Newgens that come through, modifying their ability and style.
This role is filled by the HoYD by default, however if none is employed whichever staff member is set to be responsible for youth development will fill this role.

This is taken from the Youth challenge thread.

[LetsNotScoreGoals]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

Here is what SI have told us about the intakes:

This is taken from the Youth challenge thread.

All of this makes complete sense, and that was what I've figured they mean from hours of playing the game.

So you can understand why it's frustrating and baffling when I don't get any good regens despite spending a lot of time optimising my club for youth intake, even going as far as start a save with maximum everything, and still not getting any good regens.

[Freakiie]

The bigger your club, the better your players, the more likely it is that compared to what is at your club your youth intakes won't be that amazing.

If I get a 100 CA/150 PA youngster while playing in the third flight somewhere, then that's an amazing player, that's good enough to continue playing for me in higher leagues (as long as he improves). If I get that player while playing at Bayern, well guess I might let him stick around as a bench warmer? If I get him while playing a club like PSV, he'll be a solid first team player, but still by no means an amazing talent.

When you have a really good squad, of course your youth intakes are going to look much worse, since they'll be compared to way better players. On the other hand, in my future save where I'm stuck at a Sunderland that's a Championship bottom feeder even average youth intakes already produce players that have a future in my first team. Same goes for my Iceland saves, considering that any solid talent quickly gets poached, what's at my club never is that great compared to what's potentially in my youth intakes, thus making it much more likely that I get a "good" youth intake. And even then, I regularly suffer dry spells during  those saves, since in the end all you can do is improve your odds, you can never guarantee anything. Which makes sense, since not a single club in the world can guarantee constant amazing youth intakes.

[XaW]

1 minute ago, LetsNotScoreGoals said:

All of this makes complete sense, and that was what I've figured they mean from hours of playing the game.

So you can understand why it's frustrating and baffling when I don't get any good regens despite spending a lot of time optimising my club for youth intake, even going as far as start a save with maximum everything, and still not getting any good regens.

Sure, I can understand the frustration of it, and I have had it myself at times. I've also had times where I've had excellent players at smaller club that I've sold for millions to big sides, and even gotten in some world beaters of my own who have lead me to glory. And it is a bit random, but so is real life. Most of the best players around the world come from small clubs initially.

[enigmatic]

2 hours ago, LetsNotScoreGoals said:

Past a certain point, it's no longer bad luck but just bad design. If you're the world's leading team with the best staff and great connections in the footballing world, and have been going for a few years, its not realistic to have consistently poor youth intakes.

La Masia, world famous wonder academy that produced Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Pique, Pedro and Fabregas 

Hang on, all those players are in their thirties!

Maybe Fati will turn out amazing, but that's a lot of youth intakes in between where the best players had - by Barcelona standards - 2.5* potential

[Mr U Rosler]

I pretty much do exclusive Youth Academy challenges and have done for years so I have some experience of this.

In nearly all saves I get the year 1, stellar intake, with no investment in facilities anomaly. Always struck me as odd. In my FM21 save i didn't (and I was pleased) .

The biggest influence on the quality of the youth intake, in my opinion, is simply the Division you are in. This is obviously tied to many things, not least reputation and NATION RATING. This year i've had back to back promotions from the National League to League 1, with no investment in facilities or coaching my League 1 intake is just far better. This is very noticeable when you are moving up the Leagues, I notice when I hit the Premier League i was initially looking for 160+ PA players in the Youth Intake and was always disappointed with the myriad of 130/140 PA players I would get. I soon learnt that attribute distribution in relation to role was far more important than raw PA and that a 140 PA player developed to specialise in his role could be a dominant Premier League player. 

But I think the biggest factor to appreciate is it's a massive lottery every year. I've have had a 187 PA player come in my League 2 intake and gone 5 years in the Premier League with maxed out facilities and got no-one above 150 PA. This is all part of the fun and how it should be. If it's a lottery, I view upgrading youth facilities, junior coaching, youth recruitment, maxing out facilities, improving reputation etc as simply buying more tickets, but it does not guarantee a big win. Not doing this also doesn't guarantee you WON'T win big.    

If being the most reputable team in the Premier League with the best facilities meant you had a production line of the next Messi's & Ronaldo's the game would be boring. At the moment, they might well show up at Barnsley, which when you think about it, is great.  

     

Edited December 29, 2020 by Mr U Rosler

[Grifty]

I'm managing Brommapojkarna in Sweden who start of with what is very good coaching and youth recruitment for their level and while I don't limit myself to youth only challenges, I do focus on trying to promote using those facilities where possible. After a few years of Euro II qualification + a few relative big sales of players I've been able to bump both recruitment and coaching to 'Exceptional', my youth facilities to 'Great' and my training facilities to 'Excellent'. My HOYD is pretty good I think, and his favoured formation is similar (but not identical) to what i play.

I am yet to get a 'Golden Generation' tag, however every season I get that it's a good group of players, at least 2 5* potential players and currently 7 of my first team (of 22 players) would class as graduating from my academy while I've been at the club.

My personal feeling is that players playing well increases development faster to reach the potential, so I prefer to leave players in my u19 team to play than come up to the bench of the reserves or 1st team. Because of this my u19 league record since I've started is played 143, won 124 and scored 664 goals. Probably 3 of them could be on the bench in my first team, maybe starting some games, but they'd probably only score a 6.8 average. I'd prefer them to play in the u19s until they are 19 getting an average rating of 7.8 than get 15 appearances in the first team scoring 6.8. Then either a seaosn on loan elsewhere or brought into the 1st team as cover.

I rambled on a bit and actually missed the point of the OP but there we go!

[RocheBag]

1 hour ago, Mr U Rosler said:

I pretty much do exclusive Youth Academy challenges and have done for years so I have some experience of this.

In nearly all saves I get the year 1, stellar intake, with no investment in facilities anomaly. Always struck me as odd. In my FM21 save i didn't (and I was pleased) .

It's not an anomaly. The first year intake looks great because the star ratings are compared to your team. As your team gets better the star ratings of the youth players goes down even if the players are just as good.

[Mr U Rosler]

12 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

It's not an anomaly. The first year intake looks great because the star ratings are compared to your team. As your team gets better the star ratings of the youth players goes down even if the players are just as good.

I wasn't referring to star ratings, just raw PA (potential ability). This is an absolute number and has nothing to do with the quality of your team. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Mr U Rosler

[Platinum]

28 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

I wasn't referring to star ratings, just raw PA (potential ability). This is an absolute number and has nothing to do with the quality of your team. 

As you said PA isnt the main thing anyway, it's the distribution of attributes. A higher PA doesnt mean a better player, and then a player reaching their PA and when they reach it is a whole other topic.

Btw if you're regularly getting 140 PA players that's really good. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by francis#17

[RinusFM]

In FM2019 or so. I got a Irish player in my youth. Sold him for 80 million. Upgraded everything, took a ambitious HoYD. HoYD's personality is the most important, tho. Ambitious, Model citizen, perfectionist, etc. 

[Muttley84]

11 hours ago, LetsNotScoreGoals said:

I've played this franchise for a while now and I've NEVER had any good intakes in what must have been at least 50 seasons. The one time I had consistently good youths was when I was playing Palermo

Not sure how consistent this is... But after playing for over 10 editions I can safely say I had it all... exceptional intakes, terrible ones, medium intakes.

What I considered a mediocre intake at Inter when I was CL winners turned out to be 4 players playing later in Italian NT (but not for me).

What I considered an exceptional intake at Scunthorpe turned out to be a bunch of mediocre League players.

So yes, there is a bit of randomness, but as others pointed out it is both consistent with how real life academy products work and makes the game enjoyable on the long run. Pretty sure you are producing slightly better players as u improve facilities, but you cant expect wonderkids each year.