How we're introducing women's football into Football Manager

[Federico]

10 minuti fa, Travis Bickle ha scritto:

I'll explain something I am personally disappointed about. 

When I've emailed SI in the past (and to be fair, I am talking 3-5 years ago) asking about the inclusion of other leagues, I've been told that they aren't willing to add leagues that they don't think people will play. I've also been told it adds to testing time to check whether a new league would be compatible with the existing game. 

Now when it comes to 'inclusion'...

There's only one African league in the whole game. No Egypt, no Morocco, no Nigeria etc. I wonder what evidence there is that the women's leagues in say FM23 would have more people playing it than the Egyptian league?

We're missing leagues in Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay and Venezuela which would greatly improve the South American experience.

The Cypriot league is not in the game despite being a top 20 ranked UEFA league for a decade or more now. There's no Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan despite the fact both countries have improved a lot recently. Even some of the excluded Baltic (Lithuania) and Balkan (Montenegro) countries could be an interesting addition.  

Obviously no Japan but I understand the licensing issues there. 

No Middle-Eastern leagues at all...No UAE, no Qatar, no Bahrain, no Kuwait, no Saudi Arabia, even though these leagues have pretty decent commercial pull and a number of good players there. 

Furthermore, at least one major European league seems to have a serious bug every year. 

What I'm trying to say is...the women's game is a nice addition and I commend SI for what they are trying to do, but it feels like: 

1) You could apply the 'inclusion' argument to African or Middle-Eastern football. Africa and the Middle-East is vastly under-represented in the game. Morocco objectively has a better league than Iceland for example. 

2) I am skeptical in the long-term how popular the woman's database will be, and if development time will be taken away from the parts of the game most people will play. 

3) I would really rather they focused on including more nations/leagues in the men's game first. 

This is obviously just my opinion. Others will disagree and that's fine. And I absolutely do not mean any disrespect to SI or women's football, I'm just expressing how I feel. 

P.S Yes I know you can add leagues in the Editor but as someone who has made editor files, it takes a lot of work. Adding multiple playable edited league can cause instability. And it doesn't change the lack of research for leagues not in the vanilla game. 

 

i wouldn't be worried at all about resources being drained up from FM development to be funneled into womens development. I mean SI is running the business since quite a long time, I'm pretty sure they know best how to manage both things without losing any point in terms on quality.

I made a super-quick-not verified nor reliable research on the web about how many people is actually interested in women football on videogames

https://www.gamebyte.com/only-2-5-of-fifa-20-gamers-have-played-a-womens-football-match/

Surely 1 more reason to promote it, if you see the thing from a certain point of view.

[Travis Bickle]

7 minutes ago, Federico said:

i would be worried at all about resources being drained up from FM development to be funneled into womens development. I mean SI is running the business since quite a long time, I'm pretty sure they know best how to manage both things without losing any point in terms on quality.

I made a super-quick-not verified nor reliable research on the web about how many people is actually interested in women football on videogames

https://www.gamebyte.com/only-2-5-of-fifa-20-gamers-have-played-a-womens-football-match/

Surely 1 more reason to promote it, from a certain point of view.

I was going to bring up FIFA as an example. The addition of women's teams didn't change the game that much but it's an addition that almost all players ignore and head straight for Ultimate Team or Career Mode.

The majority of FM players, I am sure, load up England, France, Germany, Italy and Spain and play as their favourite team. 

See my thread here and also consider that the people posting on this forum are far more likely to be 'dedicated' players skewing the amount of people who load more leagues. 

Again, for my personal preference, as a more 'dedicated' player (even though I have almost zero hours on FM21) I would prefer if they added some more missing nations from the men's game since they wouldn't have to change anything about the game, it's just some data research and I am sure they'd have volunteers, plus implementing the league structure. If we're talking about 'inclusion' then you can also argue African and Middle-Eastern football is vastly under-represented. 

Adding the women's game from my understanding means changing a lot more in the structure of the game. 

Like I said, all my personal preference, I trust SI know what they are doing. 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Travis Bickle

[Daveincid]

I don't understand why people complaining about missing leagues and use it as an argument against WSL . 

SI gave us a tool called FM-Editor. EVERY Nation can be created easily (only activating the league) or with some effort pretty realistic. Theese leagues can be downloaded on the editor's hideaway-forum. Why should SI spend a lot of ressources on it? The quality of some creators are 1:1 the same as the ones already included in the game by default. Some League-Files are created from researches of it's Nation. 

WSL is not just a new league, it's much more complex. This is where you need dev's to program it properly. 

I highly encourage people to always look for  a solution first, pretty often there already exist one

 

[Wolf_pd]

Added to that, if the women's game is so much different game-wise, it will mean more options in the editor as well

[Travis Bickle]

4 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

I don't understand why people complaining about missing leagues and use it as an argument against WSL . 

SI gave us a tool called FM-Editor. EVERY Nation can be created easily (only activating the league) or with some effort pretty realistic. Theese leagues can be downloaded on the editor's hideaway-forum. Why should SI spend a lot of ressources on it? The quality of some creators are 1:1 the same as the ones already included in the game by default. Some League-Files are created from researches of it's Nation. 

WSL is not just a new league, it's much more complex. This is where you need dev's to program it properly. 

I highly encourage people to always look for  a solution first, pretty often there already exist one

 

I've already addressed this. 

It takes a lot of work, and you have to start over every single year adding stadiums (ever spent 2 whole days finding the Lat/Long of stadiums? :)) , histories, missing players, missing staff, missing clubs, missing rivalries, missing media sources, missing awards, missing kits, missing cities...

A lot of us do all this work but if SI worked with these editors the finished product in-game would be much better especially if it's tested and ensured they're all compatible with the vanilla game. Again, I'm not sure the casual player will necessarily scout fan-sites looking for an accurate Egyptian league file but if it were in the base game they might be tempted to give it a try as a one-off. 

Plus, I can tell you a fair amount of the files you'll find are not particularly accurate in structure. 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Travis Bickle

[XaW]

For those in here who claim there isn't much interest. I had a look, these are the average numbers of attendances of the English WSL in the 2019/20 season:

Not super high, but let's look at the Vanarama national, the 2nd lowest tier in the men's league in England:

Well, what do you know? It's lower for the men's league. And that is a league already in the game, and it's not even the lowest tier there.

That's not to say that attendances = inclusion. There are several other leagues with high attendances that are not in the game currently. Personally, I'd see both the women's leagues added, as well as loads of other nations around the world, because I would like the FM world I step into to be as real as possible, and more leagues for both men and women seems like something positive for me. If that's not interesting for others, then just don't load up the leagues, it's not harder than that.

[Travis Bickle]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

For those in here who claim there isn't much interest. I had a look, these are the average numbers of attendances of the English WSL in the 2019/20 season:

Not super high, but let's look at the Vanarama national, the 2nd lowest tier in the men's league in England:

Well, what do you know? It's lower for the men's league. And that is a league already in the game, and it's not even the lowest tier there.

That's not to say that attendances = inclusion. There are several other leagues with high attendances that are not in the game currently. Personally, I'd see both the women's leagues added, as well as loads of other nations around the world, because I would like the FM world I step into to be as real as possible, and more leagues for both men and women seems like something positive for me. If that's not interesting for others, then just don't load up the leagues, it's not harder than that.

Comparing the highest professional league of Women's football to the Vanorama national isn't great imo because the lower leagues are probably there to add greater depth to the main leagues.

Regardless, I agree with your sentiment. Nothing against women's football or the addition of women's leagues, but I've been hoping SI would add more leagues into the men's game for years and years now and they've never budged. 

[Federico]

1 minuto fa, XaW ha scritto:

For those in here who claim there isn't much interest. I had a look, these are the average numbers of attendances of the English WSL in the 2019/20 season:

Not super high, but let's look at the Vanarama national, the 2nd lowest tier in the men's league in England:

Well, what do you know? It's lower for the men's league. And that is a league already in the game, and it's not even the lowest tier there.

That's not to say that attendances = inclusion. There are several other leagues with high attendances that are not in the game currently. Personally, I'd see both the women's leagues added, as well as loads of other nations around the world, because I would like the FM world I step into to be as real as possible, and more leagues for both men and women seems like something positive for me. If that's not interesting for others, then just don't load up the leagues, it's not harder than that.

If we'd count people playing FM by real games attendances...

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Travis Bickle:

I've already addressed this. 

It takes a lot of work, and you have to start over every single year adding stadiums (ever spent 2 whole days finding the Lat/Long of stadiums? :)) , histories, missing players, missing staff, missing clubs, missing rivalries, missing media sources, missing awards, missing kits, missing cities...

A lot of us do all this work but if SI worked with these editors the finished product in-game would be much better especially if it's tested and ensured they're all compatible with the vanilla game.

Plus, I can tell you a fair amount of the files you'll find are not particularly accurate in structure. 

If you look at my "Increase-Realism-Megapack" you will notice that I know how much ressources it takes

I didn't say it's easy to get the game as realistic as possible, but it's do-able. 

Even if there is a fair amount of imperfect files there is still an amount of great files. Again: Focus on solutions

[XaW]

1 minute ago, Travis Bickle said:

Comparing the highest professional league of Women's football to the Vanorama national isn't great imo because the lower leagues are probably there to add greater depth to the main leagues.

Regardless, I agree with your sentiment. Nothing against women's football or the addition of women's leagues, but I've been hoping SI would add more leagues into the men's game for years and years now and they've never budged. 

Oh, I agree comparing a top league to a lower one is not the best, but it was the first that came to mind. I could have compared it to Iceland or somewhere else with low attendance, but I wanted to keep it in England.

That said, there have been added a league here and there the last years. Gibraltar, 2nd tier of Wales, Canada, to mention the few I remember of the top of my head. As well, as the possibility of adding other leagues through the editor. Adding another English women's league have been more or less impossible. So I don't have any problems seeing why SI would take this route now.

That said, I still hope for as many leagues as possible in the game, and there is a reason why I every year download new leagues and play there.

[Travis Bickle]

3 minutes ago, Federico said:

If we'd count people playing FM by real games attendances...

I don't think attendances alone can be used to justify whether a nation should be in FM either.

I'm not sure what the attendances for Ligue 1 (Ivory Coast) or Nigerian Professional League are but the insane regen potential would make them enticing to play in.

Regardless, and to respond to @Daveincid and @XaW above, if this indicates SI might be more open to expanding the game to other nations and leagues in the future then I'm absolutely happy.  I'm just saying in the past I've always found SI to be unwavering on any prospect of expanding the game database so it's a surprise they went ahead with this when I personally feel they could have started with a few missing men's leagues. 

Let's hope things work out great for the game though. 

[vikeologist]

It's fairly clear that they're not just (or even at all) doing this because of the amount of current interest in women's football. They're doing this to increase interest in women's football, so it's a bit chicken and egg.

If anything, I'd say this makes it less likely that there will be any nations or levels added in the foreseeable future. I think it's entirely possible that will never happen. 

There is of course an argument about whether SI should be driving football related developments, or just reflecting them, but their commitment to the former has been clear by quite a few of the developments over the last decade.

Edited July 24, 2021 by vikeologist

[Neil Brock]

Just to address a point about us adding new leagues to the game. Generally in recent times the reasoning for adding them has been tied into the number of people from that country playing FM - similar to how we managed adding new translated languages into the game.

There are of course exceptions to this, related to the complexity of the league and how easy/difficult it is to get a license.

There's also of course a requirement for the quality of research we're able to get. We were lucky that both for Gibraltar and Canada we had existing researchers who could very much contribute.

For the women's game in some ways on the research side we were starting from scratch, but as stated in the blog, we've already started making progress and have got some fanatically talented people on board. 

For me personally, having a niece who's just got into playing organised football at primary school age, I'm extremely proud and excited to know we're taking these steps to help raise further the profile of women's football.

I'm also chuffed to know that both her and my nephew will grow up and be able to play FM having more choice than the generations before them.

[fm2020.smith]

worst decision evr by si. if people want womens football then give them a seperate game. this feels like a pc move to just to keep in with the movement of women wanting everything their own way.

you have a sound business, with millions of loyal supporters, companies that go and change a good business model dont end well.

you need to keep it so we dont have to add it.

with 4 billion watching the premiership each week and 85000 watching womens football its not even in the same league. the five guys playing five aside in london gets more views on you tube thann womens football are we including them too?

[vikeologist]

16 minutes ago, fm2020.smith said:

worst decision evr by si. if people want womens football then give them a seperate game. this feels like a pc move to just to keep in with the movement of women wanting everything their own way.

you have a sound business, with millions of loyal supporters, companies that go and change a good business model dont end well.

you need to keep it so we dont have to add it.

with 4 billion watching the premiership each week and 85000 watching womens football its not even in the same league. the five guys playing five aside in london gets more views on you tube thann womens football are we including them too?

You won't have to add it. It will be your choice, in the same way that nobody is making me load the abomination against nature that is the Canadian league.

[Blue Maniac]

28 minutes ago, fm2020.smith said:

worst decision evr by si. if people want womens football then give them a seperate game. this feels like a pc move to just to keep in with the movement of women wanting everything their own way.

you have a sound business, with millions of loyal supporters, companies that go and change a good business model dont end well.

you need to keep it so we dont have to add it.

with 4 billion watching the premiership each week and 85000 watching womens football its not even in the same league. the five guys playing five aside in london gets more views on you tube thann womens football are we including them too?

This is hilarious, but not in a good way

[FulchesterFred]

23 hours ago, Bleb Blebster said:

But why. Seriously why?

 

Why don't you try and fix the problems (let's try one year without 3 patches before the game runs more or less stable) rather than introducing soemthing that will quickly fade away. Sure people will probably try and play it for a short period of time, but will lose interest, just like in real life, as womens football is boring, slow, not that technincally and just well boring.

 

But why not introduce the whole lot from the beginning? Let's say from the age of 5 or 6,both girls and boys so we can get the proper feeling of everything. of and don't fprget to add in the deaf leagues, the gay leagues etc etc.

For Gods sake take your prejudice back to Twitter/ insta etc etc. It’s not welcome here.

FM represents many lower leagues that don’t play technically brilliant football but doubt you’ve ever complained about that. Women’s football is accelerating at pace and it’s great that FM are looking to acknowledge that.

as for deaf leagues and gay leagues why even post that? Shows how unpleasant you are. 

[vikeologist]

I quite enjoy women's football,but I completely understand that some people won't want to watch it or play it in FM. That's fine. 

It's like Touch. I really don't like the Touch version of the game,but I got my £5,000 an hour lawyer to check it out, and it turns out I don't need to play Touch. In fact, don't tell SI, because they'll remove me from this forum, but

Spoiler

I don't even have it installed.

  Crazy or what! I'm such a bad boy.

[JordanMilly]

Just had to have another clear out of sexist and abusive drivel.

People are welcome to provide good faith arguments, but please, at the very least, read the blog post first ("it's a political decision!!!!!" - Yes, Miles says as much).

People who are just going to whine and complain about "PC CULTURE GONE MAD" or unironically calling people "snowflakes" while crying about women being added to a football game are going to be treated in the way they deserve.

I'm honestly disappointed at how much sexist rubbish we've had to clear from this thread. I half expected it on Twitter, it's open to the public to post on and Twitter tends to be a cesspit at the best of times, but I thought the forum generally had a better standard of poster. It's just tragic that the idea that there's straight white guys, and then everything else is "political", appears to have taken root here.

****'s sake, take a good long look at yourselves.

[Federico]

55 minuti fa, vikeologist ha scritto:

 

It's like Touch. I really don't like the Touch version of the game,but I got my £5,000 an hour lawyer to check it out, and it turns out I don't need to play Touch. In fact, don't tell SI, because they'll remove me from this forum, but

  Rivela contenuti nascosti

I don't even have it installed.

  Crazy or what! I'm such a bad boy.

But you can or cannot purchase/download Touch at your will. Not the best example to bring up.

[Federico]

2 ore fa, fm2020.smith ha scritto:

worst decision evr by si. if people want womens football then give them a seperate game. this feels like a pc move to just to keep in with the movement of women wanting everything their own way.

you have a sound business, with millions of loyal supporters, companies that go and change a good business model dont end well.

you need to keep it so we dont have to add it.

with 4 billion watching the premiership each week and 85000 watching womens football its not even in the same league. the five guys playing five aside in london gets more views on you tube thann womens football are we including them too?

Just a tip note: unless you're speaking by hyperboles (which I haven't catched anyway) i'd check again your figures in general.

[mikelfc8]

Excellent move by SI. Women's football is not going away. It is an entirely legitimate part of the footballing world and will continue to grow.

The reactionary complaints will rattle around for a while and then dwindle as they always do. It's so often the way with progress. I faced similar reactions on a thread about featuring fans in wheelchairs in the 3d match engine. They are there now and nobody is complaining about them. It was just the right thing to do, in the name of inclusivity.

Looking back in a few years time, I'm sure the reactions will seem even more ridiculous than they do now.

[JordanMilly]

As Miles has said to The Athletic:

[Daveincid]

I love Miles for being that direct Definetly not the easiest way of communication but 100% authentic

[phd_angel]

11 hours ago, Travis Bickle said:

I'll explain something I am personally disappointed about. 

When I've emailed SI in the past (and to be fair, I am talking 3-5 years ago) asking about the inclusion of other leagues, I've been told that they aren't willing to add leagues that they don't think people will play. I've also been told it adds to testing time to check whether a new league would be compatible with the existing game. 

Now when it comes to 'inclusion'...

There's only one African league in the whole game. No Egypt, no Morocco, no Nigeria etc. I wonder what evidence there is that the women's leagues in say FM23 would have more people playing it than the Egyptian league?

We're missing leagues in Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay and Venezuela which would greatly improve the South American experience.

The Cypriot league is not in the game despite being a top 20 ranked UEFA league for a decade or more now. There's no Azerbaijan or Kazakhstan despite the fact both countries have improved a lot recently. Even some of the excluded Baltic (Lithuania) and Balkan (Montenegro) countries could be an interesting addition.  

Obviously no Japan but I understand the licensing issues there. 

No Middle-Eastern leagues at all...No UAE, no Qatar, no Bahrain, no Iran, no Saudi Arabia, even though these leagues have pretty decent commercial pull and a number of good players there. 

Furthermore, at least one major European league seems to have a serious bug every year. 

What I'm trying to say is...the women's game is a nice addition and I commend SI for what they are trying to do, but it feels like: 

1) You could apply the 'inclusion' argument to African or Middle-Eastern football. Africa and the Middle-East is vastly under-represented in the game. Morocco objectively has a better league than Iceland for example. 

2) I am skeptical in the long-term how popular the woman's database will be, and worried if development time will be taken away from the parts of the game most people will play. 

3) I would really rather they focused on including more nations/leagues in the men's game first. 

This is obviously just my opinion. Others will disagree and that's fine. And I absolutely do not mean any disrespect to SI or women's football, I'm just expressing how I feel. 

P.S Yes I know you can add leagues in the Editor but as someone who has made editor files, it takes a lot of work. Adding multiple playable edited league can cause instability. And it doesn't change the lack of research for leagues not in the vanilla game. 

 

Excellent commentary. Yes, we are all for inclusion, but check the female football demographic to see it's predominantly white middle-class college folks from very rich countries (just look at the predominant images). In the meantime, Third World leagues from poor/brown countries are not included in FM due to "low interest".  Better than nothing, but this inclusiveness still is pretty selective... It becomes "the right thing to do" when business meets politics meets PR.

Quite frankly, I care more about FM product quality (lack thereof). I'd rather see investments in improving/fixing the game, rather than messing with its already dodgy performance.  Blame it on gamers (like myself) for accepting a product that is fun but of relatively mediocre quality over the years... As long as SI has a near monopoly on the genre, they can show rude attitude, do whatever they please, and will continue providing a crappy product for as long as there is no serious competition in the market.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by phd_angel

[mikelfc8]

The female football demographic is FEMALE. And as such, it is entirely excluded from male football and, subsequently, from FM. That is what makes it inclusive to bring it to FM.

It doesn't need to hit any other inclusivity metrics to qualify as inclusive. And it isn't a competition.

Edited July 24, 2021 by mikelfc8

[Bababui]

1 hour ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

As Miles has said to The Athletic:

As usual Miles isnt doing much more than virtue signalling here. The way the current FM is structured, solo play and a long tern commitment of time, is heavily weighted to male gaming. According to this study https://www.radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/differencesinplay.html women prefer games with '.. rich social interactions in computer games.' He hasnt spoken of any changes to the game that will make it more attractive to women. One thing SI could do is create a multiplayer mode with online leagues that might be more attractive to women and the way they prefer to game.

 

 

 

 

[Huey Lewis]

4 minutes ago, Bababui said:

As usual Miles isnt doing much more than virtue signalling here. The way the current FM is structured, solo play and a long tern commitment of time, is heavily weighted to male gaming. According to this study https://www.radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/differencesinplay.html women prefer games with '.. rich social interactions in computer games.' He hasnt spoken of any changes to the game that will make it more attractive to women. One thing SI could do is create a multiplayer mode with online leagues that might be more attractive to women and the way they prefer to game.

You do realise that men will be able to play women's leagues as well right? 

[GIMN]

10 minutes ago, Bababui said:

As usual Miles isnt doing much more than virtue signalling here. The way the current FM is structured, solo play and a long tern commitment of time, is heavily weighted to male gaming. According to this study https://www.radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/differencesinplay.html women prefer games with '.. rich social interactions in computer games.' He hasnt spoken of any changes to the game that will make it more attractive to women. One thing SI could do is create a multiplayer mode with online leagues that might be more attractive to women and the way they prefer to game.

 

 

 

 

Women are, quite famously, a monolith.

[FulchesterFred]

14 minutes ago, Bababui said:

As usual Miles isnt doing much more than virtue signalling here. The way the current FM is structured, solo play and a long tern commitment of time, is heavily weighted to male gaming. According to this study https://www.radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/differencesinplay.html women prefer games with '.. rich social interactions in computer games.' He hasnt spoken of any changes to the game that will make it more attractive to women. One thing SI could do is create a multiplayer mode with online leagues that might be more attractive to women and the way they prefer to game.

 

 

 

 

Your inspirational words suggest genders think as one. Strange then that I find everything you say to be complete rubbish, despite the fact we’re both male and therefore identical.

[CEVR1996]

58 minutos atrás, phd_angel disse:

Excellent commentary. Yes, we are all for inclusion, but check the female football demographic to see it's predominantly white college folks from very rich countries (check the images!). In the meantime, Third World leagues from poor/brown countries are not included on FM due to "low interest".  So, yeah, it becomes "the right thing to do" when business opportunism and social pressure come together...

Quite frankly, I care more about FM product quality (lack thereof).  Blame it on gamers (like myself) for accepting a product that is fun but of relatively mediocre quality over the years... As long as SI has a near monopoly on the genre, they can show rude attitude, do whatever they please, and will continue providing a crappy product and grow in the market, for as long as there is no serious competition...

 

 

 

 

 

I'm glad someone made this point! If SI didn't saw a potential avenue to boost their company ratings and market profits by taking this approach, they wouldn't have went along with it. Virtue is second to profit in the business world, let's not pretend otherwise and act like they're adding women's football leagues to FM merely out of a concern for inclusion because if so, we could make the argument as to why they haven't yet included more leagues to the game from predominantly non white nations and continents.

For example, the only playable league you have available in Africa is the South African one, why is that? Aren't the African players who play in their native countries worthy of inclusion and representation as well? It can be pointed out that there are independent content creators who have made numerous non playable leagues playable using the editor but if that is what's going to shut down the debate, then couldn't the women's leagues and database also be created by one such creator in their spare time using this same tool? 

I do think nonetheless that it's a good thing for FM to reach new heights and this is by no means a step backwards in any way or form but I also think it's rather disingenuous to make this entirely about inclusion and representation instead of addressing the reality at hand...SI is not a non profit organisation looking to promote social causes, it's a company that seeks to make a good profit above everything else, that's the end goal, the rest are business practices put in place to try and accomplish said goal as best as possible.

[legnerschorsch]

Wouldn´t it be a good idea to first improve the vintage graphic engine?

In its current state, it can´t even display the differences between the Champions League final and an amateur game.

Weird priorities.

[Footix]

Don't know how I feel about this tbh. I get what Miles is saying and all, but for me personally it feels a bit "waste" that SI are spending years and years on developing a feature I really couldn't care less about. 

But to each their own, nobody's forcing me to check this feature out when it eventually launches, I will just keep on playing FM as usual.

[bazhsw]

I think this is brilliant news and will lead to a more immersive and inclusive experience for us players.  I do think some of the, 'yes, but...' comments in this thread are really masking something else, but taking a broader approach I do think that the development of FM to support the women's game will lead to benefits experienced by every player (for instance graphics and match engine).

I am one who supports additional leagues, but other leagues are well served by our brilliant modding community and we don't make a case for more inclusion by demanding a different underrepresented group are placed ahead of whatever else is going on.

It's a really positive step, could increase the player base and for those of us who never stay in the same place for long gives us a whole host of other teams and leagues to play in.  There really isn't a downside to this.

[JordanMilly]

3 hours ago, Bababui said:

As usual Miles isnt doing much more than virtue signalling here. The way the current FM is structured, solo play and a long tern commitment of time, is heavily weighted to male gaming. According to this study https://www.radford.edu/~mzorrilla2/thesis/differencesinplay.html women prefer games with '.. rich social interactions in computer games.' He hasnt spoken of any changes to the game that will make it more attractive to women. One thing SI could do is create a multiplayer mode with online leagues that might be more attractive to women and the way they prefer to game.

 

 

 

 

"Doing the right thing by increasing awareness of women's sport is bad because women don't play FM."

That's basically what you just said, and are apparently completely ignoring what Miles said in the original blog post about the reasons for why SI have decided to set up a separate team to begin work on this.

It isn't being done particularly for a business reason, it's being done for a moral one.

 

2 hours ago, legnerschorsch said:

Wouldn´t it be a good idea to first improve the vintage graphic engine?

In its current state, it can´t even display the differences between the Champions League final and an amateur game.

Weird priorities.

It's almost as if different teams within SI, which has been recruiting more staff, are able to work on multiple things at the same time 

[Federico]

5 ore fa, JordanMillward_1 ha scritto:

As Miles has said to The Athletic:

 

5 ore fa, Daveincid ha scritto:

I love Miles for being that direct Definetly not the easiest way of communication but 100% authentic

I don't, really.

I think people should be convinced otherwise by trying to develop and discuss, not pushing them away.

It's pretty common to read here in this forum mods asking for "constructive criticism". This is what is expected by mature people.

I can't find anything constructive in that statement and I personally find "we don't need that money" and generally that kind of dialectic ("with me or against me" sort of) quite offensive and surely not something to be encouraged by anyone.

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Federico:

 

I don't, really.

I think people should be convinced otherwise by trying to develop the argument and discussing, not pushing them away.

I personally find "we don't need that money" and generally that kind of dialectic ("with me or against me" sort of) quite offensive and surely not something to be encouraged.

I do, but it's all good if you don't. Different opinions are great, disrespect isn't.

"If somebody thinks that putting womens football into football manager is going to ruin their experience".

 Sorry but this is far away from a level where you can discuss respectfully. 

[Federico]

10 minuti fa, Daveincid ha scritto:

I do, but it's all good if you don't. Different opinions are great, disrespect isn't.

"If somebody thinks that putting womens football into football manager is going to ruin their experience".

 Sorry but this is far away from a level where you can discuss respectfully. 

Are you seriously saying that stating something like " this is gonna ruin my experience" is such an offensive and abusive statement to deserve any kind of unrespectfulness?

I just think a grown and educated man should be capable, or try, to convince someone's thought with dialogue. At least this is what I've been taught since childhood.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb Federico:

Are you seriously saying that stating something like " this is gonna ruin my experience" is such an offensive and abusive statement to deserve any kind of unrespectfulness?

100%

Gerade eben schrieb Federico:

I just think a grown and educated man should be capable, or try, to convince someone's thought with dialogue. At least this is what I've been taught since childhood.

As I said it's not the easiest way of communication, so I agree to some point on that 

[CEVR1996]

24 minutos atrás, Daveincid disse:

I do, but it's all good if you don't. Different opinions are great, disrespect isn't.

"If somebody thinks that putting womens football into football manager is going to ruin their experience".

 Sorry but this is far away from a level where you can discuss respectfully. 

The question is if there really were people claiming that the addition of women's football to FM would ruin the game for them or if Miles made this statement as a response to legitimate concerns raised by the player community regarding wether other areas of the game would see noticeable improvements as well or not since this undergoing project will obviously consume plenty of the development's team time and resources. If they have in fact expanded the staff ranks then I suppose there won't be an issue but perhaps these were questions being brought foward which end up getting misconstrued as an aversion to the idea of having woman players in the game.

Edited July 24, 2021 by CEVR1996

[Federico]

11 minuti fa, Daveincid ha scritto:

100%

I'm honest, I'm seriously worried by this kind of thinking.

And anyway, this is surely the worst way to publicize something you want to be promoted instead.

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Federico:

I'm honest, I'm seriously worried by this kind of thinking.

I'm sorry to worry you

vor 3 Minuten schrieb CEVR1996:

The question is if there really were people claiming that the addition of women's football to FM would ruin the game for them

If you have seen how many comments had to be removed in this thread it's kinda obvious. But yes, there is room left for interpretation. 

In the end it's pretty simple (IMO):

- They are going to implement it, end of story.

- They indirectly said it won't take ressources away of creating new features and ongoing fixes.

- They have ambitions to try out new things

I still don't see any reason to see this negative at all, no matter if you are for or against womens football. 

[Federico]

21 minuti fa, Daveincid ha scritto:

I'm sorry to worry you

You and many others, unfortunately.

That statement is violent, violent statements can lead to outrageous consequences. Nothing to compare with, but look at what happened in the US this pas winter. We ride all those campaigns against internet haters and web bullies and so on... but what we personally do to clean the things up and try to change the things?

I answer for you: just nothing.

"we're against violence in football!!!!"

"Flags waved on stands just ruin my game experience"

"we don't give a hell, flags stay or play something else.".

 

[CEVR1996]

1 minuto atrás, Daveincid disse:

I'm sorry to worry you

If you have seen how many comments had to be removed in this thread it's kinda obvious. But yes, there is room left for interpretation. 

In the end it's pretty simple (IMO):

- They are going to implement it, end of story.

- They indirectly said it won't take ressources away of creating new features and ongoing fixes.

- They have ambitions to try out new things

I still don't see any reason to see this negative at all, no matter if you are for or against womens football. 

I'm just having an hard time believing that there are this many people within the FM community who hold such negative feelings towards women's football for no apparent reason other than shere spite for the sport. I may have my own reservations on this particular subject but none of them is geared towards an antagonistic view against women representation in the sport. Nonetheless, they'll be answered once the game rolls out in November.

[Federico]

1 minuto fa, CEVR1996 ha scritto:

I'm just having an hard time believing that there are this many people within the FM community who hold such negative feelings towards women's football for no apparent reason other than shere spite for the sport. I may have my own reservations on this particular subject but none of them is geared towards an antagonistic view against women representation in the sport. Nonetheless, they'll be answered once the game rolls out in November.

I think it has to be related on how women football is percieved in their own countries, maybe. In example, I might assume people from US or UK or France or even Spain are excited from it. I personally live in Italy, women football is a movement that is growing up, but very very very slowly. It peaked like a couple of years ago during the World Cup and then... I don't know. I'm not saying it's ignored but we're very very far away from anglophone countries or other continental countries figures.

I personally watched some game and I was bored to death. So that's why I don't think I will give it a go. Never say never, anyway.

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb CEVR1996:

I'm just having an hard time believing that there are this many people within the FM community who hold such negative feelings towards women's football for no apparent reason other than shere spite for the sport.

totally agree! It's pretty common that a loud minority get's more attention as the majority

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Federico:

but what we personally do to clean the things up and try to change the things?

- Accept the decision which have been made.

- Be respectful

- Do not tolerate discrimination

It's not that complicated to be honest.

It's all good that people simply don't like the addition, but respect is key.

[-Jef-]

We gonna act like male football matches are all full of excitement and prestige? Football as a game is void of excitement except 5-10 minutes per game. And female team sports are usually more technically and tactically sound. Just look at WNBA - it is much better product basketball wise. But because 99% of WNBA players don't dunk it's not exciting for the social media viewers.

 

Also, remove 30k people in the stands and put top 5 league football on regular pitch like they play in sunday league and is it really that much different?

[TheGreatest]

1 minute ago, -Jef- said:

We gonna act like male football matches are all full of excitement and prestige? Football as a game is void of excitement except 5-10 minutes per game. And female team sports are usually more technically and tactically sound. Just look at WNBA - it is much better product basketball wise. But because 99% of WNBA players don't dunk it's not exciting for the social media viewers.

 

Also, remove 30k people in the stands and put top 5 league football on regular pitch like they play in sunday league and is it really that much different?

In Golf or Tennis/Table Tennis as an amateur you can learn better from women cuz they don't rely on power as much as on technique and there's a reason women's tennis is the best women's sport, but I doubt you ever watched WNBA if you can say something like this. You don't watch local High School games as well and I can't blame you.

[Federico]

1 minuto fa, Daveincid ha scritto:

totally agree! It's pretty common that a loud minority get's more attention as the majority

So you think the vast majority of FM players, niche players by definition, was friggin' for a female database?

1 minuto fa, Daveincid ha scritto:

- Accept the decision which have been made.

- Be respectful

- Do not tolerate discrimination

It's not that complicated to be honest.

It's all good that people simply don't like the addition, but respect is key.

- You have to accept it, they make the game, they make the rules. I'm sure though, as customers, we're entitled to have a word if argumented in a civil manner. Agree?

- Always and from both sides. Agree again?

- Absolutely. But many users complained about technical stuff that had nothing to do with discrimination.

[CEVR1996]

23 minutos atrás, Federico disse:

I think it has to be related on how women football is percieved in their own countries, maybe. In example, I might assume people from US or UK or France or even Spain are excited from it. I personally live in Italy, women football is a movement that is growing up, but very very very slowly. It peaked like a couple of years ago during the World Cup and then... I don't know. I'm not saying it's ignored but we're very very far away from anglophone countries or other continental countries figures.

I personally watched some game and I was bored to death. So that's why I don't think I will give it a go. Never say never, anyway.

I do believe women's football still has plenty of leeway left to raise it's international visibility and popularity and I'd be happy to see more efforts being made towards that end but it will never get anywhere near the heights of it's male counterpart, and the reason is simple: biology. Man are faster, stronger and more physically resilient on average, that comes as part of their inherent biological composition, which makes up for a more entertaining spectacle and greater feats of athleticism on the pitch.

 

23 minutos atrás, Federico disse:

I think it has to be related on how women football is percieved in their own countries, maybe. In example, I might assume people from US or UK or France or even Spain are excited from it. I personally live in Italy, women football is a movement that is growing up, but very very very slowly. It peaked like a couple of years ago during the World Cup and then... I don't know. I'm not saying it's ignored but we're very very far away from anglophone countries or other continental countries figures.

I personally watched some game and I was bored to death. So that's why I don't think I will give it a go. Never say never, anyway.

I might have made an accidental double citation...

Edited July 25, 2021 by CEVR1996