Is dynamic youth ratings for nations working how it should be?

[Platinum]

1 hour ago, Andrew James said:

I'd say the best place to progress the discussion is in a thread like this - and if you find specific examples of Dynamic National Youth Ratings not working as you'd expect, then to log a new post in our bug tracker outlining the change you'd expect to see and why (ideally with reference to comparable situations in real life, if possible!). We can then assess whether the example is a bug, or a situation not accounted for by the current system which may require a Feature Request. 

Something I'd again like to reiterate is that NYR is not the only factor that goes into the quality of newgens produced in a nation, and many of the other factors included in the calculations are themselves also dynamic, and so it is still possible to improve the quality of player coming through in a nation, even if their NYR growth is restricted by Financial Status. 

I think it's important in these discussions to correctly define exactly what National Youth Ratings quantify in game - they impact the quality of newgen generating at *every* club in that nation, so in real terms, can be thought of as along the lines of the nation's grass roots structure and youth football pyramid.

In the bug tracker thread I mentioned that we want to keep things realistic, and I think this was misunderstood slightly, so to clarify - we absolutely want it to be possible for users to achieve the "unrealistic" in game, but we want our game to then respond to those feats in a realistic manner. The issue here is that there is a lack of real world evidence for what the realistic impact would be from a smaller nation winning a World Cup - which is why these discussion threads are so useful, so thanks to everyone who's contributed. 

I think two of the most relevant examples of recent times to this debate are Zambia and Belgium. Zambia were surprise winners of AFCON 2012, and whilst that may have shone a spotlight on the nation as a potential talent pool, with more Zambians based in Europe than previously, nearly 10 years on from that tournament, their national ranking has actually decreased. Belgium are at the backend of a golden generation that seemed to appear from nowhere, have been a major force at several tournaments and spent a lot of time ranked number 1 in the world - and although they do have some good talent coming through, it seems likely that a period of regression lies ahead and that Lukakus, KDBs and Hazards won't be the new normal. 

Obviously the potential of this feature has captured the imagination for a lot of users, so if you disagree with any of the above then please (politely ) let me know. We're always looking for ways to improve the game and I agree this feature can still be improved (personally I like the idea of trying to tie national team performance and league reputation into a nation's Game Importance and Financial Status scores, which would then feed into NYR long-term - but I think, by definition, that all NYR changes should always be very gradual).

Hope that all made sense! 

I've only read parts of this thread but I just want to say that I think its important that the 'unrealistic' occurs in a 'realistic' manner. And as you say winning a world cup or an AFCON shouldn't, in isolation, lead to a dramatic increase in newgens in that nation. In my opinion sustained success (where success is relative so could mean making a quarter final) in both continental club competitions and national team tournaments in a 5 to 10 year period would be needed to have a any type of significant impact on a complete minnow nation. And even then it depends what other sports are played in the country and how big they are.

[Sunstrikuuu]

2 hours ago, Andrew James said:

I think it's important in these discussions to correctly define exactly what National Youth Ratings quantify in game - they impact the quality of newgen generating at *every* club in that nation, so in real terms, can be thought of as along the lines of the nation's grass roots structure and youth football pyramid.

Can I ask here about clubs that are connected to multiple nations?  For example, Swansea City -- based in Wales, in the English league system.  Are their newgens affected by the NYR/other factors of Wales, England or some combination of the two?  Do their facilities etc contribute to the grass-roots structure of England or Wales?

[JordanMilly]

1 hour ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

Can I ask here about clubs that are connected to multiple nations?  For example, Swansea City -- based in Wales, in the English league system.  Are their newgens affected by the NYR/other factors of Wales, England or some combination of the two?  Do their facilities etc contribute to the grass-roots structure of England or Wales?

I believe it's the country in which the club is based, rather than the league the club plays in - therefore, Swansea and Cardiff would take and contribute to Wales, FC Andorra to Andorra rather than Spain, etc.

[XaW]

4 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

I believe it's the country in which the club is based, rather than the league the club plays in - therefore, Swansea and Cardiff would take and contribute to Wales, FC Andorra to Andorra rather than Spain, etc.

I thought so too, but then you have teams that are based in a country, but get newgens from others, such as Africanos Bragança. They are based in Portugal, but only get Cape Verdean newgens. Or for example, FC Romania that's based in London that gets Romanian newgens.

I don't know the answer, but it would be nice to know.

[vikeologist]

Personally I don't want the NYR to shoot up (because of winning the World Cup for instance).

Take my current save for instance.

I'm managing both a club and international side (Hibs and Scotland). I'm nearly 4 seasons in.

Scotland's world ranking has gone from 41st to 16th. In  European competition coefficients, Scotland has gone from 10th to 8th, which doesn't sound impressive but involved leapfrogging Belgium. Rangers' facilities have gone backwards slightly, but Celtic and Hibs have improved theirs by a lot. The ranking for the top division has gone from 11th to 8th.

There should be some change to NYR. Even if it was just 1 or 2 points, and nations plummeting in the opposite direction should be inversely affected. AFAIK there has been zero change to any nation.

It doesn't have to be incremental. If every 5 seasons the game changes the NYR to avoid overreacting to meaningless rep fluctuations, that would be fine, and maybe that is how it's coded.

The NYRs are so wide apart that it surely leaves room for the game to make incremental changes. I'd be happy with NYRs not changing by more than say 5 in a 10 year period even if the nation has unprecedented success. I don;t want the football world of my save to be transformed over the course of 50 seasons, but since SI have introduced the feature, it should do something within the timeframe of a typical save, and some of the other elements such as financial power should also be (slightly) dynamic.

The NYR doesn't have to be tied to every single other thing. The various rankings and coefficients are to an extent already entwined, but whatever it's linked to at the moment isn't working well.

UPDATE: I have found one nation whose NYR has increased. Belgium's has increased by 1, but there's no possible reason. I can't see any criteria where Belgium hasn't gone backwards. World Ranking, coefficients. There's just no reason for this.

They did finish runners up in the last World Cup and Euros, but they're ranked world number 1 at  the start of the game.

Edited December 21, 2021 by vikeologist

[obasa_G]

44 minutes ago, vikeologist said:

Personally I don't want the NYR to shoot up (because of winning the World Cup for instance).

Take my current save for instance.

I'm managing both a club and international side (Hibs and Scotland). I'm nearly 4 seasons in.

Scotland's world ranking has gone from 41st to 16th. In  European competition coefficients, Scotland has gone from 10th to 8th, which doesn't sound impressive but involved leapfrogging Belgium. Rangers' facilities have gone backwards slightly, but Celtic and Hibs have improved theirs by a lot. The ranking for the top division has gone from 11th to 8th.

There should be some change to NYR. Even if it was just 1 or 2 points, and nations plummeting in the opposite direction should be inversely affected. AFAIK there has been zero change to any nation.

It doesn't have to be incremental. If every 5 seasons the game changes the NYR to avoid overreacting to meaningless rep fluctuations, that would be fine, and maybe that is how it's coded.

The NYRs are so wide apart that it surely leaves room for the game to make incremental changes. I'd be happy with NYRs not changing by more than say 5 in a 10 year period even if the nation has unprecedented success. I don;t want the football world of my save to be transformed over the course of 50 seasons, but since SI have introduced the feature, it should do something within the timeframe of a typical save, and some of the other elements such as financial power should also be (slightly) dynamic.

The NYR doesn't have to be tied to every single other thing. The various rankings and coefficients are to an extent already entwined, but whatever it's linked to at the moment isn't working well.

UPDATE: I have found one nation whose NYR has increased. Belgium's has increased by 1, but there's no possible reason. I can't see any criteria where Belgium hasn't gone backwards. World Ranking, coefficients. There's just no reason for this.

They did finish runners up in the last World Cup and Euros, but they're ranked world number 1 at  the start of the game.

From the previous post from Andrew James and from the experiments carried out in this thread, national team performance and coefficients are not a major factor for youth rating improvement. Youth rating increment relies most on the Economic status (Economic factor, Development status, FA Financial Power, etc.) and Game Importance of a nation. The youth ratings of nations like Belgium, England, France, Germany,etc. will always improve despite their performances.

[vikeologist]

9 minutes ago, obasa_G said:

From the previous post from Andrew James and from the experiments carried out in this thread, national team performance and coefficients are not a major factor for youth rating improvement. Youth rating increment relies most on the Economic status (Economic factor, Development status, FA Financial Power, etc.) and Game Importance of a nation. The youth ratings of nations like Belgium, England, France, Germany,etc. will always improve despite their performances.

I didn't think it was that clear, but I think the 4 things that you've cited are all static, which would make the supposedly dynamic nature of NYR a joke.

As per this whole thread, there are 2 elements to this; is the dynamic NYR working as it's supposed to, and why is it supposed to work so badly? 

 I just think it's a mess at the moment,and needs to be improved for future versions, and we might as well discuss it here.

I mean, Belgium's NYR is really high at the start of the game. Andrew James has said himself that Belgium is unlikely to stay at this level of producing wonderkids.

Quote

Belgium are at the backend of a golden generation that seemed to appear from nowhere, have been a major force at several tournaments and spent a lot of time ranked number 1 in the world - and although they do have some good talent coming through, it seems likely that a period of regression lies ahead and that Lukakus, KDBs and Hazards won't be the new normal. 

so if the feature is working as he envisages it, it should be going down, not up.

[obasa_G]

27 minutes ago, vikeologist said:

I didn't think it was that clear, but I think the 4 things that you've cited are all static, which would make the supposedly dynamic nature of NYR a joke.

As per this whole thread, there are 2 elements to this; is the dynamic NYR working as it's supposed to, and why is it supposed to work so badly? 

 I just think it's a mess at the moment,and needs to be improved for future versions, and we might as well discuss it here.

Yes, dynamic youth ratings mainly rely on static values to change. That's why the changes are at different rates for each country. Like England's youth rating changes earlier than San Marino's or Scotland's.  This kind of defeats the purpose of dynamism. If we want to stick with the model they have, a way to mitigate this issue is to also make Economic Factor, FA Financial Power and Game Importance dynamic. Let the performances of the nations(International competition performance, national ranking, etc.) affect the three variables listed before.

 

35 minutes ago, vikeologist said:

I mean, Belgium's NYR is really high at the start of the game. Andrew James has said himself that Belgium is unlikely to stay at this level of producing wonderkids.

so if the feature is working as he envisages it, it should be going down, not up.

 I noticed that the youth rating is just dynamic in one direction (positive). I know others in this thread have seen youth ratings drop, but I personally haven't. What I notice is that after 20-40 years of simulation, the youth ratings of nations like France  and Germany cap out at 200, and I've never seen any nation's rating drop.

[Zemahh]

On 14/12/2021 at 07:31, Strokke said:

I really hope we don't have to wait until FM23

Oh sweet summer child. 

[fc.cadoni]

5 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

Oh sweet summer child. 

lol

[kjarus1]

On 17/12/2021 at 19:22, Platinum said:

I've only read parts of this thread but I just want to say that I think its important that the 'unrealistic' occurs in a 'realistic' manner. And as you say winning a world cup or an AFCON shouldn't, in isolation, lead to a dramatic increase in newgens in that nation. In my opinion sustained success (where success is relative so could mean making a quarter final) in both continental club competitions and national team tournaments in a 5 to 10 year period would be needed to have a any type of significant impact on a complete minnow nation. And even then it depends what other sports are played in the country and how big they are.

I would like to bump this comment. Completely agree on the idea of that sustained International success should lead to a higher NYR. The current real-life examples that we have are only one-off:

Greece 2004 EURO was a one-off event and we haven't seen a new Golden Greek generation (maybe yet to come!)

Croatia is a good example, a small country that participated in 1998 world cup and finished 3rd and 20 years later in 2018 they reached the finals with clearly many footballers being inspired by that 1998 performance. Now imagine Croatia constantly reaching semi-finals in each world cup, shouldn't this drive incredibly their NYR?

Edited December 22, 2021 by kjarus1

[fc.cadoni]

5 minutes ago, kjarus1 said:

I would like to bump this comment. Completely agree on the idea of that sustained International success should lead to a higher NYR. The current real-life examples that we have are only one-off:

Greece 2004 EURO was a one-off event and we haven't seen a new Golden Greek generation (maybe yet to come!)

Croatia is a good example, a small country that participated in 1998 world cup and finished 3rd and 20 years later in 2018 they reached the finals with clearly many footballers being inspired by that 1998 performance. Now imagine Croatia constantly reaching semi-finals in each world cup, shouldn't this drive incredibly their NYR?

The only ONE player which is come to my mind now about Greek player; it is Tsimikas.

Greece 2004 EURO was lucky one (IMHO) and since then we didn't even make any progress (forward). You can see that GSL is 20th place comparing to rest EU; I would call it decline. 

[dannyfc]

10 hours ago, kjarus1 said:

I would like to bump this comment. Completely agree on the idea of that sustained International success should lead to a higher NYR. The current real-life examples that we have are only one-off:

Greece 2004 EURO was a one-off event and we haven't seen a new Golden Greek generation (maybe yet to come!)

Croatia is a good example, a small country that participated in 1998 world cup and finished 3rd and 20 years later in 2018 they reached the finals with clearly many footballers being inspired by that 1998 performance. Now imagine Croatia constantly reaching semi-finals in each world cup, shouldn't this drive incredibly their NYR?

Croatia have always produced good footballers despite being a small nation. 1998 was their first tournament, and before that Yugoslavia were decent despite underperformed.

There should always be an element of luck in youth intake. Every country goes through relative peaks and troughs in talent, but largely over the course of 50 years the better teams have largely remained the same.

Personally I'd like to see domestic league dominance become more dynamic. Either through increased changes in finance or reputation from both continental success and external factors. Right now the PL dominates from TV rev, that may continue but it would be good to see Serie A make a comeback, or maybe a developing football nation like China or the US become more prominent through increased investment or sponsorship.

It's impossible to realistically model but maybe an optional 'fantasy' setting which incorporates external world events such as economic or political changes could yield a rapid change. Almost like the Sugar Daddy event but at a higher level. Wouldn't be for everyone but gives the game more volatility for interesting longer term saves.

[pow4h]

Any new tests after last patch?

In my save it is like that: 

Red colour - youth rating decreased, green - improved. 

As you can see most YR didnt change, but when it does in most situations it decrease. 

Very weird change is in Egypt when it increased significantly.

 

[vikeologist]

1 hour ago, pow4h said:

Any new tests after last patch?

In my save it is like that: 

Red colour - youth rating decreased, green - improved. 

As you can see most YR didnt change, but when it does in most situations it decrease. 

Very weird change is in Egypt when it increased significantly.

 

I'm surprised by those big changes. In mine YRs have only changed by one, and not with many nations by 2025.

I'll try to populate a spreadsheet like yours, (but not tonight).

[vikeologist]

14 hours ago, pow4h said:

Any new tests after last patch?

In my save it is like that: 

Red colour - youth rating decreased, green - improved. 

As you can see most YR didnt change, but when it does in most situations it decrease. 

Very weird change is in Egypt when it increased significantly.

 

How many leagues do you have loaded in this save?

[vikeologist]

15 hours ago, pow4h said:

Any new tests after last patch?

In my save it is like that: 

Red colour - youth rating decreased, green - improved. 

As you can see most YR didn't change, but when it does in most situations it decrease. 

Very weird change is in Egypt when it increased significantly.

 

These are the changes in my save, with only Scotland loaded.

	2021	2025
	YR	YR
Scotland	83	83
Brazil	163	163
France	140	141
Belgium	110	111
Portugal	114	115
Germany	155	156
England	120	121
Argentina	140	140
Italy	144	144
Spain	140	140
Holland	122	122
Cameroon	100	100
Egypt	138	138
Turkey	124	124
Nigeria	120	120
Mexico	120	120
China	60	60
Bulgaria	72	72
Poland	94	94
USA	110	110
South Korea	110	110
Australia	90	90
Morocco	85	85
San Marino	29	29
Kiribati	1	1
Sri Lanka	16	16
Ukraine	110	110
Senegal	80	80

 

Only very minor changes, and only to the 5 Eurpean nations in bold. I think your 2021 figures may be from a different save, and they haven't changed as much as you think. The initial YRs may have been changed in subsequent updates, but I suspect that your 2021 figures were muchthe same as mine. (I started this save on the beta).

I haven't included the FIFA rankings or reputations, because I think SI have made it clear that they don't drive YR changes.

Edited January 5, 2022 by vikeologist

[pow4h]

Well... I took 2021 youth ratings from this article: All Nations Youth Ratings in FM22 | FM Scout

So maybe they are wrong and it didnt change at all. Because after that "changes" they are very similiar to yours. 

I have around 20-25 legaues loaded. 

[pow4h]

But my friend after 10 years of game had increase of Youth Rating in Poland from 94 to 104, but it was in Beta and shortly after beta. 

[CosmicCreepers]

So I've only been able to skim a lot of this post, there's a chance I've missed a key part of this discussion, but I have a few thoughts about the way youth development should work... some of these may already happen to some extent but it's hard to tell. A lot of them definitely don't happen.

1) Clubs in a nation are the biggest factor in youth production, and player generation should reflect this.
The likelihood of a player to take up football seriously is largely determined by the opportunities available to them in that country. Whilst my experience of this is UK biased, in general the places that are trying to recruit promising players, and working in the community to try and get young people into playing football are from clubs in that nation. A promising player who has no club that is able to find them and willing to take them into their academy is very very unlikely to make it in the game. National teams may provide some funding to grass roots engagement, but even in nations willing to invest in this, it is largely the club set ups, their recruitment, their coaching, their access to facilities etc. that determine how good a player can be, and how many high potential players take up the sport.

Equally if the team you support (or a lot of people around you support) is doing well (winning the league, winning continental trophies) , then people are going to keep banging on about football and you're going to be a lot more interested in playing it and following it as a young person than if your team is battling for relegation and all your nations teams are falling in the qualifying rounds of any continental trophy

2) There is some natural variation to Game Importance within nations. This is as much determined by how successful domestic teams are as how successful the national team is.
Game Importance seems like a strange value in FM, particularly as it is enforced that it stays the same. It's also a strange value as it aims to encapsulate some very different behaviours (as far as I understand, please correct me if I'm wrong). So this stat is meant to reflect how high a country places Football on a hierarchy of all sports. But there are two distinct parts to this in my opinion: the amount of extra funding available to the sport by the nation, and how much a young person values a chance at playing that sport vs alternate sports.

On the funding side: this can vary a lot. As a whole, in larger countries where the game is established, the nation will contribute a fair amount of money to youth infrastructure and facilities for their national level teams, but not really subsidise much beyond that. However, after a series of bad international performances in a nation where the people support the sport in high volume (eg include Germany late 90s/early 00s, England late 00s...and im sure there's plenty more) the reaction that we have tended to see from nations like this is a sudden massive investment in youth in terms of improving their national facilities, trying to get young people to take up the game, trying to keep promising players in the game and helping them develop, and offering subsidies to help people do this. So the funding importance in these nations will generally increase with consistent poor performances.

On the cultural side: yes, kids who might be interested in taking up the sport love these big international events. We all sit here cheering on our teams, and gaining inspiration from them doing well... but as a whole, if you are from a big nation with a lot of talented players, even if that nation hasn't won a tournament for a long time, you largely expect that your team will do fairly well, and whether or not they reach the final and win makes very little difference to whether you are actually interested in taking up the sport. Most of the football games that a young person will see and experience are club level games, and most football mad kids fantasise about playing football for a particular club and winning major trophies with them, making the national team success just a cherry on top. With smaller nations I think you could argue that whilst its less expected to see your nation do well and there's a joy in seeing them be successful, I don't believe that it's a major driver of players who were young during the last one taking up the sport, and whilst you may see some correlation in certain nations, this cyclical behaviour is observable in sports teams at any level and is often more to do with the older/influential players having to fall out of the team to allow opportunities for young players to gain experience, but also an incentive for the national setup to search for a next generation of players. You will see it in your local amateur clubs, you will see it in other sports, you will see it in semi-professional levels, you will see it at professional level in the era before the top clubs could just buy their way out of trouble created by this. I think there are plenty of the (currently) mid - lower ranked teams that have had a crop of really good players for a period of time, sometimes performed well in tournaments, and then not been able to replicate it:  Poland, Serbia, Sweden, Czech Republic... You could argue as well about African nations that showed promising generations Cameroon, Senegal, Ghana, Ivory Coast. Simply put, I believe there is little to no influence of international performances on the likelihood of someone to take up the sport, and no evidence to suggest any causation between good performances and good youth prospects. Probably also largely because the international teams are not the teams that make being professional viable.

3) Big sporting events impact the Game Importance for a nation in the build up to and immediate aftermath of the event.

Great, your nation has just won a bid to host the world cup. You're going to automatically qualify, and this is a chance for you to show off your country to the world... What do you do? You invest in the sport. Hello South Korea / Japan. Not only do you invest in it, but you also have it as a selling point to young players "your aim is to play in this prestigious tournament". Instant boost in Game Importance/Recruitment of youth for that nation for a while. And then when the event comes, a large number of young people get to experience football in a way maybe they never had before, those people are suddenly more interested in the sport.

On the flip side.. your nation has just won a bit to host the Olympics, this is your chance to show off your country to the world...but the best way to do that is by winning Gold medals. There's only 2 Gold medals available in football, and both of those require you producing 23 players who will play well together across multiple matches. Hmm. Sounds tough. But we do have a load of people who are quite athletic, why don't we put them on bikes and see what they can do, maybe we can make them competitive in running events...etc. Suddenly your nation is actively funding the poaching of potential talents into other sports, you had a young player finding it tough to get picked up by the right teams as a 12 year old, but the nations athletics association is willing to commit to funding them for at least 8 years? Well, maybe they make that change and leave football. (This is an approach used by GB cycling among others for London 2012, they targeted people who were playing in other sports such as hockey and football and offered them an alternative).

As a whole I realise here i've used "Game Importance" the term for the stat when talking about these different factors, but really maybe they are needed to be split into a funding and cultural importance.

4) No nation genetically spawns better players than any other in the world, the quality of players is entirely a function of culture, infrastructure and opportunity (the above)
I always find it a bit weird that we have a game that gives South American nations by default a really high chance of spawning good players on the basis that there was an era before the heavy funding and shift in attitude to football in europe that meant places like Brazil would dominate the international stage. Whilst I accept when FM games were first being made, we still probably all held this belief that Brazil just is the place for talented players, inn reality, when this was the case, it was largely down to cultural factors that made playing variations of the game very popular in a country with a high population that loved football as a sport. Its been 18 years since Brazil last won a world cup, and since then they have looked increasingly poor. Although really when we are talking about youth rating we should perhaps be more interested about the number of top level players that are being produced of that nationality... and maybe someone can do this better and in more detail than me by scanning the squads of top teams in top leagues, but something to bear in mind: in the past 3 champions league finals the number of brazillians in the match day squad has been 3, 4, 4: Man City (Fernandinho, Jesus...both only used as subs), Chelsea (Thiago Silva), PSG (Thiago Silva, Neymar, Marquinhos ), Bayern Munich (Coutinho...used as sub) , Liverpool (Fabinho, Firmino, Allison ), Tottenham (Lucas Moura). Heck here's a list of top 60 young players that The Guardian publishes yearly (https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2021/oct/07/next-generation-2021-60-of-the-best-young-talents-in-world-football) .Well say what you want about how they judge players, but there is no indication from any of this that is saying to me "Brazil are producing high potential young players at a higher rate than any other nation". Given its population size, if it really was such a good youth producer, you'd expect it to be dominating these lists and having key players involved in all these big games, and having top players across big teams. In reality there are a couple of those players that you would consider big players for those clubs, and the rest are just consider solid options. However with the way youth rating and population combine, Brazil and south america dominate talent production in most FM games i've played.

The Brazil rant aside, the youth rating in football manager is essentially a value that you apply with the population to determine how good the players that you generate in that nation could possibly be. I don't believe that the potential of someone to be a great sports player is determined in any way by nationality. There is no magic genetic code, or specific locational anomaly that allows one country to produce a load of talented people in a particular sport. It is entirely based on if someone who is a promising sportperson has access to opportunity and infrastructure, and whether their culture inclines them to explore it.

 

Anyway that's just my little pennies worth. Wonder if anyone has any thoughts on that? Additions, subtractions, should the youth generation of the game be overhauled to reflect a more accurate view of the world, and allow long term saves to be more flexible and interesting with how you can grow a nation without it becoming ridiculous (no San Marino world cup wins plz etc).

[vikeologist]

Some very interesting There's no 'Game Importance' hidden attribute.There's FA Financial power and Economic Power, neither of which change.

Actually it would make sense if a nation's economic power did affect the NYR, but in an inverse way. Developing states may be more likely places where youngsters would chase the dream of earning money as a sporting superstar. 

Anyway, it's just impossible for the game to predict which nations will produce more great players in the future IRL, or to provide a sensible simulation.

China is supposed to be a developing nation! All these hidden attributes are extremely arguable.

FM shouldn't try to be the predictive mathematical subfield of psychohistory from 'Foundation'. Just make a game where what we do can affect the game world. I don't want to know which empires shall flourish. I just want Scotland to eventually produce better players in my save. Just give us a stupid game. 

 

 

[Dbuk1]

I haven’t read the whole thread but what is the point of dynamic youth ratings if the changes are not noticeable? It was a feature described as huge by Miles pre-release. If players didn’t have the editor they would have no clue that dynamic youth rating was even in the game. IMO if the feature is wanted then it needs to fluctuate significantly or the feature is not effective. What is the point in spending the whole year attempting to increase youth ratings to realise fm23 is about to be released? It seems a pointless feature currently.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Dbuk1

[CosmicCreepers]

2 hours ago, vikeologist said:

Some very interesting There's no 'Game Importance' hidden attribute.There's FA Financial power and Economic Power, neither of which change.

So Game Importance is a thing. It's just only accessible in the pre-game editor, and remains fixed for every nation. You can find it on the information page for a nation in the pre-game editor, but it is not visible in game or in the in game editor (at least in FM21, i havent confirmed for FM22 but supect thats the same).

It takes a value one of: Completely Useless, Unimportant, Important, Very Important...which is also not very nuanced.

It is meant to play some role in Youth Generation, but it's unclear how much of a role.

As far as Fa Financial Power and Economic power go, I thought that the FA financial power only really played a role in how much money the nation can offer a manager and any other in game mechanic that requires a nation to pay money, whereas the Economic Factor was something that influences how much money their is within that nation (such as for your club owners to inject) and may also have a small modifier on expected wages relative to reputation, income from gate receipts, and income from other sources.

Quote

Anyway, it's just impossible for the game to predict which nations will produce more great players in the future IRL, or to provide a sensible simulation.

China is supposed to be a developing nation! All these hidden attributes are extremely arguable.

FM shouldn't try to be the predictive mathematical subfield of psychohistory from 'Foundation'. Just make a game where what we do can affect the game world. I don't want to know which empires shall flourish. I just want Scotland to eventually produce better players in my save. Just give us a stupid game. 

And yes, I agree with this, but I don't think the suggestions I made amount to "psychohistory" or even predictive mathematics (with the exception of pointing out that the change that has been introduced doesn't really make sense because there is no way to show causation). What S.I. claim to want to do is to make a management sim that feels real and immersive, and that needs to include some element of being able to influence the sport in a nation, but to influence it in a sensible way around a small number of variables (i mean i think i mentioned about 5 in that above post, not unworkable or dissimilar to what is currently used). It might require them to rethink a youth generation system that's been largely untouched since the first FM game, but that doesn't mean it is going to be particularly difficult to do.

When I play Football Manager, my enjoyment and goal is to create one of the best youth factories in the world, so to me youth generation is a big part of the game, however it is a part that seems to have received very little attention. For me a realistic and immersive simulation would take into account how clubs in a nation are doing, what facilities have been built by clubs and are available, what the extent of youth recruitment funded by these clubs are, what quality of coaches they have, etc. Most of these variables already exist in some form in the game. Currently the game relies on a single number "Youth Rating" to be the main factor in generating youth, with it hard to discern how big an influence the other numbers have, the numbers prescribed are ones that have been determined through some calculation and don't seem to vary much between each game, and even with the addition of variation they don't change much and still means we rely on this nonsensical number that is meant to determine how good youth players from a nation can be regardless of the sensible things that do influence whether someone can make it in the game, a lot of those being things that you can/could significantly influence from a club in a nation.

I mean i think as a whole I feel like given how much people care about and enjoy the youth development part of the game, there should be more nuance and complexity added to the management of these systems beyond just "oh i can ask my board to give a bit more funding/better facilities". I'm not sure what really, but something that's a more meaningful trade-off to your budget, something that means you can't just get rich and go "upgrade everything" and problem solved, something more nuanced that allows it to be a meaningful strategy for long term success as a trade off. E.g. the Southampton approach of somehow managing to maintain premier league status largely through avoiding the big ticket signings and bringing through young players (i.e. the Arsenal, Tottenham, Southampton approach), but also something that you have to keep on top of as a player and cant just sit back and ignore after upgrading everything and magically still get top players coming through.

Essentially: In my opinion, Youth systems and youth generation both need an overhaul...but i don't think adding more nuance to how many talented players a nation can create is something that takes a lot of work to add to this game for now and is a low hanging fruit that would make quite a lot of people happy.

Edited January 6, 2022 by CosmicCreepers

[CosmicCreepers]

As a side note on the predictive mathematics thing though...This is literally the approach they take to everything else? So even adding something more complicated shouldn't be beyond the skillset.

[Sharkn20]

If I was SI I would just shut the whole feature down. 4 pages worth of moans and unrealistic expectations.

Do You guys really want that thanks to odd RNG outcomes the whole equilibrum of the game changes in a way that we could have the wonderkids coming from Zambia, Qatar, North Corea, Liechestein or you name it...?? Instead of Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Germany, England... 20 years into the save??

Come on, some common sense please, I definitely NOT WANT THAT in my saves, thank You.

A little bit of variability like is coded now is fun. What you guys are suggesting is a disgrace for the game. If You want that just use the editor, but don't break the game for hundreds of thousands of players it's as easy as that.

[vikeologist]

8 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

If I was SI I would just shut the whole feature down. 4 pages worth of moans and unrealistic expectations.

Do You guys really want that thanks to odd RNG outcomes the whole equilibrum of the game changes in a way that we could have the wonderkids coming from Zambia, Qatar, North Corea, Liechestein or you name it...?? Instead of Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Germany, England... 20 years into the save??

Come on, some common sense please, I definitely NOT WANT THAT in my saves, thank You.

A little bit of variability like is coded now is fun. What you guys are suggesting is a disgrace for the game. If You want that just use the editor, but don't break the game for hundreds of thousands of players it's as easy as that.

What I'm suggesting, and speaking only for myself, is a dynamic youth rating that could see  YRs change by at most 5 over a 10 year period, and ideally in both directions and generally over the long run not changing much for most nations. So, Scotland'sis 83. England's is 120, and there's some much higher.

200 years into a save the equilibrium may indeed change, but by that point you'll have surprising teams in top divisions completely independent of the YR anyway.

@CosmicCreepersI wasn't criticising your post or ideas, or suggesting you were attempting psychohistory. More SI for attempting something unrealistically complex. I'd rather they simplified their objectives for this feature, at least until their capability catches up.

[forameuss]

1 hour ago, vikeologist said:

What I'm suggesting, and speaking only for myself, is a dynamic youth rating that could see  YRs change by at most 5 over a 10 year period, and ideally in both directions and generally over the long run not changing much for most nations. So, Scotland'sis 83. England's is 120, and there's some much higher.

200 years into a save the equilibrium may indeed change, but by that point you'll have surprising teams in top divisions completely independent of the YR anyway.

@CosmicCreepersI wasn't criticising your post or ideas, or suggesting you were attempting psychohistory. More SI for attempting something unrealistically complex. I'd rather they simplified their objectives for this feature, at least until their capability catches up.

But is that not just going down the lines of looking at numbers we shouldn't really be looking at and getting overly obsessed with the value rather than the effect?  Like you're saying a movement of 5 over a 10 year period - what effect is this realistically going to have?  Rhetorical question I know, we've no idea.  

I wouldn't go down the fire and brimstone route of the person you replied to, but I'd stand by what I said previously.  They screwed up by "announcing" (I know they technically didn't, but you know what I mean) it the way they did.  It should have either been worked behind the scenes and never talked about directly, or been part of a very vague "Youth Development Improved" banner.  Because for many pages now, we've found what?  The number doesn't change much, and if it does, it does awkwardly.  Great.

[CosmicCreepers]

On 07/01/2022 at 00:53, Renyy said:

That doesn't appear to be accurate at all.. Compare say England to Brazil. Brazil have almost 30 points higher rating than England, but still produce fewer and not as great talent as England. It was explained many years ago (not sure if it's still accurate) that the reason Brazil has such high youth rating is because the other influences (such as economy, facilities etc.) wouldn't allow them to produce the amount and quality of talent that they in real life produce, so they need a higher NYR. Going off of the response by SI in the bug thread, it seems like this is still accurate and NYR acts as an artificial compensation for true to life values that wouldn't produce a realistic level of talent by itself. 

OK, so maybe I am misinterpreting what is going on in my saves, but what I find is that a a ridiculously large amount of high potential signings are coming from South American nations. Mainly: Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Colombia... and then weirdly quite a decent amount from Mexico. In Europe, I get a very large number of Italians,  with a sprinkling of some French and some German,..and then the English ones which don't really matter because you can't realistically sign those anyway.

I have not done a full statistical analysis of this, maybe I am in fact reading it wrong. Or maybe both of our opinions are skewed by the scouting knowledge in our games. All I can say is that in my games I interpret what I am seeing as all factors other than Youth Rating having very limited influence on the quality of players coming through a nation.

Quote

The never ending and one-dimensional ambition is something that really hurts long term club building, more than one would expect. On a surface level, getting access to all the club funds and being constantly asked to strive for more sounds like a great thing, but it's completely unrealistic and over time makes you perpetually fighting game mechanics to stay sustainable. A club like Valmiera from Latvia shouldn't have a board that demands a CL semi after 3 decent seasons in the CL. I was literally told my most important objective for the season was to be one of the top 4 clubs in Europe with a wage budget of something like 500k a week. How are you supposed to stay motivated through that?

So i;m not entirely sure what you are saying here? If you are saying that this sort of mechanic doesn't work because at present in the game your board constantly expects more and more of your team... then yes, i agree with that. But: I don't think this creeping board expectation is realistic or enjoyable for the game (usually these creeping expectations are only held by teams who have just had a new big money investor come in who wants to see progress made with their money).  And maybe I am in the minority here, but I would prefer a game where there is a big challenge and trade off between trying to get by with instant results on limited funding, trying to buy your club short term success to fund something more sustainable, and investing from the ground up. At the moment there is no major challenge to taking a small club with limited funding into a top league, breaking into europe after 3 or 4 seasons and then  after a couple more seasons you're continually just acquiring more money than you can reasonably spend, so you either then get bored of the challenge or start splashing out on big signings just because you can. I would much rather be put in positions where I have to make meaningful decisions about where my money goes at each stage of this process, and be given more of a challenge to just maintain my level let alone to try and raise it.

Quote

If you started a build a nation and gave your DoF and board ability to spend cash however they saw fit you'd literally bankrupt the club in a few seasons. Game is in serious need of system overhauls across the board. Financials, youth development, scouting, attribute masking. FM in the last few years feel like it's gotten complacent, and needs a modernisation. 

100% agree. And maybe i'm just biased in the fact that I want the youth side to be modernised as a priority! :'). Tbh though I just want a game where the mechanics actually function better rather than the addition of extra UI features or new ways of displaying scout informations and deadline day.

Edited January 9, 2022 by CosmicCreepers

[CosmicCreepers]

On 06/01/2022 at 19:25, vikeologist said:

FM shouldn't try to be the predictive mathematical subfield of psychohistory from 'Foundation'. Just make a game where what we do can affect the game world. I don't want to know which empires shall flourish. I just want Scotland to eventually produce better players in my save. Just give us a stupid game.

So I decided to use in game editor on my FM21 Scotland save (I also have an interest in developing better Scottish players. I was aiming to try and work out if what I thought I was seeing in terms of a bias in high potential players to certain nations... I haven't been able to answer that question yet, as I think it may also be somewhat influenced by what playable leagues you put on so i'm going to do another test for that.

ANYWAY: interesting thing I found for Scotland. All Scottish regens with a PA of above 150 have come through intakes of English clubs (primarily Man Utd, Man City and Liverpool). All of these players are born in Scotland, so it isn't a case of switching allegiances based on parents.

This is a ridiculous flaw for trying to play a save like Scotland. If you look at the current Scottish international squad most of its top players started their careers in Scotland. However, in FM21 (presumably this is not something that has been updated for FM22) all scottish regens with a 150+, 9/10 Scottish of these regens come through an English club. This is despite being in a save where the Scottish league is in a far better state than at present (teams having won EL and EL2 trophies, ranked 7 in euro coefficients, at least 4 teams in the league with top facilities and recruitment.).

I had been wondering how, despite all my efforts, I seemed to be struggling to get any prospects that showed to be a good enough quality after the scouts uncertainty wears off, but I guess this is the answer, and another flaw in the system.

EDIT: And i'm gonna be honest this has put a real big downer on my games. Like i said, i enjoy building youth factories, and I have found a love of playing the Scottish league... But it seems that (probably as a result of how the UK is set up in game) in my FM21 and 22 Scotland games, I will be very unlikely to be producing any of the top Scottish talent until I can get my clubs reputation to be comparable to Man City, Man Utd and Liverpool.

Edited January 10, 2022 by CosmicCreepers

[vikeologist]

4 minutes ago, CosmicCreepers said:

So I decided to use in game editor on my FM21 Scotland save (I also have an interest in developing better Scottish players. I was aiming to try and work out if what I thought I was seeing in terms of a bias in high potential players to certain nations... I haven't been able to answer that question yet, as I think it may also be somewhat influenced by what playable leagues you put on so i'm going to do another test for that.

ANYWAY: interesting thing I found for Scotland. All Scottish regens with a PA of above 150 have come through intakes of English clubs (primarily Man Utd, Man City and Liverpool). All of these players are born in Scotland, so it isn't a case of switching allegiances based on parents.

This is a ridiculous flaw for trying to play a save like Scotland. If you look at the current Scottish international squad most of its top players started their careers in Scotland. However, in FM21 (presumably this is not something that has been updated for FM22) all scottish regens with a 150+, 9/10 Scottish of these regens come through an English club. This is despite being in a save where the Scottish league is in a far better state than at present (teams having won EL and EL2 trophies, ranked 7 in euro coefficients, at least 4 teams in the league with top facilities and recruitment.).

I had been wondering how, despite all my efforts, I seemed to be struggling to get any prospects that showed to be a good enough quality after the scouts uncertainty wears off, but I guess this is the answer, and another flaw in the system.

 

This might be a fluke.

I don't look at the PAs of the players, because that's not one of the things that I allow myself to use the IGE for in my save. (I do look at DYRs and club / nation reputations. I suppose broadly speaking I look at all the club / nation information, and none of the individual's data).

Anyhows, in the latest 50 wonderkids profile 4 of them were at Scottish clubs. (Pretty sure they'd all come as regens). Only 2 of them were actually born in Scotland. Thus far, there have been no Scottish wonderkids who have come through in any other nation. (One Scottish wonderkid starts the save at an English club).

So what  I would suggest here is that both our sample sizes are too small to make assumptions.

Annoyingly, despite having absolutely top notch facilities for everything except youth recruitment (which I'm stuck on 19 for, so not terrible) no wonderkid has been spawned by my side, but then again I presume there's still a 2 or 3 year lapse between facilities and the quality of regens that actually come through. #WaitingforWonderkids

[CosmicCreepers]

Yes, I don't ordinarily allow myself to look at PA either. However, the only way of determining if youth generation is working in a sensible way is to look at PA. So this is what I did.

So a few points here:

• Wonderkids do not necessarily have a high PA, and young players with high PA don't necessarily ever earn the wonderkid label. A wonderkid in FM is a young player whose CA is above a certain threshold (somewhere around 125)... I am not even sure there is any stipulation on potential ability to be defined as a wonderkid. So you can develop plenty of wonderkids, but find that what you've reallly done is just have them hit their CA before they're 21. In my save, I have produced 3 or 4 scottish "wonderkids" who all plateaued, and the highest potential of any of these (from just checking now) was 141. You cannot conclusively say anything about a player, let alone youth development as a whole by relying on the wonderkid descriptor. In fact the players i referenced in my previous post, none of the ones 21 and over gained the descriptor in their development. Equally: you will not magically spawn a wonderkid, however if you get a quality prospect and give them good training and experience you may find they gain the descriptor.
• How far into your save are you? If you are early on in your save and not able to use a search filter that seperates newgens from players existing in the database at youth level, then you will also not be able to determine if the players you are looking at are a result of the youth generation process, so its impossible to comment on.
• What is the reputation of scottish clubs in comparison to English ones? Like i said, if you have hit a reputation that is comparable to Liverpool, Man City and Man Utd, then you will have a chance of actually recruiting these players, but the situation i'm talking about is when club reputation is around 3.5 - 4 star or less.

I think most of what you're saying fits into the first bullet point here. 4 Scottish wonderkids just means 4 u21 Scottish players have hit a CA of about 125. They will likely not develop far beyond that, which will leave them being an ok English Championship player/decent Scottish Premier League player.

EDIT: In fact, did a quick search to get more info on wonderkids by searching all the current wonderkids in my save. It seems that the main determining factor of it is that the player have a CA of at least 135. There didn't appear to be a requirement on PA, as I found a wonderkid with PA of 138, and plenty in the 140s.

Of the players in the game with potential ability at least 170 and still young enough to be able to gain the descriptor wonderkid, only 20/129 players had gained the descriptor.

You cannot use this descriptor as a measure of youth generation working.

Edited January 10, 2022 by CosmicCreepers

[vikeologist]

@CosmicCreepersGood points.

I'm not going to look at the hidden stats of the players, because I feel that it would creep into cheating, (and take away the fun of the save).

The 4 I mentioned are only the 4 who appeared in the top 50 wonderkids. I don't know how accurate that list is, or how it's reached. There may well be other wonderkids, and as per your post, players with more potential. But those 4 are all regens. I'm in my 5th season, and as per your post, I don't think any of them appeared to be wonderkids until recently.

I think in Scotland the general facilities of the clubs has improved, largely because of me, so it will be interesting to see if there's any jump in Scotland's DYR at the end of season 5. If there isn't then I think there might be absolutely nothing that can be done in game to trigger DYR increases by the user.

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by vikeologist

[JRHaggs]

On 08/12/2021 at 07:46, vikeologist said:

SI have hinted that financial / infrastructure element might come into play, and in the editor there is a thing called State of Development. If that changed at some point during the game, and if it had a big effect, it could be an interesting part of this feature, but I'm not at all sure it's linked.

If anybody has gone quite a few seasons into a save, does China at some point become a Developed state, and does that have any obvious effect, especially on the generated players youth rating of 60.

State of Development must do something, otherwise it wouldn't be in there, but I've no idea if it's dynamic. I don't even know whether it's new as it's years since I've bought the IGE, and only bought it this time to check out this (Youth rating) feature, which as it turns out was pointless.

This is how I see it. Right now dynamic youth ratings are moving on top of a landscape of these static (afaik), but inexorably connected, variables like development, culture, etc. For dyr to really work in a way that is satisfying, there needs to be some underlying global economic+ model moving some of the underlying numbers.

For example, China will be a "developed" rather than "developing" nation soon, but that's not going to emerge from a long playthrough of FM. One year we'll just get FM34 and China will be reclassified. There may still be a lack of cultural interest in the sport, but some conditions will have been met that will *probably* lead to a higher number of prominent Chinese footballers. A different example is western Africa currently is undergoing a massive population boom *and football is quite popular*, so, over the next few decades, we should reasonably expect to see a larger presence of west African footballers on the world stage. A real world example is that of Iceland, which simply decided to build football infrastructure all over the island and, as a result, have seen a massive rise in player development.

FM is trying to do too much to work really well in long-term saves. The real world is unpredictable, capricious, nonsensical.  FM is just a spreadsheet with a bunch of spreadsheets interacting with other spreadsheets inside. I'd love a Dwarf Fortress-level of simulation, but, if you've played DF, you know that any simulation of any truly magnificent size is just inherently broken. More importantly, any good simulation does a very good job of abstracting its inner workings in a way that allows the player to ignore the actual mechanics. FM does a *very* poor job of that.

[CosmicCreepers]

4 hours ago, vikeologist said:

@CosmicCreepersGood points.

I'm not going to look at the hidden stats of the players, because I feel that it would creep into cheating, (and take away the fun of the save).

The 4 I mentioned are only the 4 who appeared in the top 50 wonderkids. I don't know how accurate that list is, or how it's reached. There may well be other wonderkids, and as per your post, players with more potential. But those 4 are all regens. I'm in my 5th season, and as per your post, I don't think any of them appeared to be wonderkids until recently.

I think in Scotland the general facilities of the clubs has improved, largely because of me, so it will be interesting to see if there's any jump in Scotland's DYR at the end of season 5. If there isn't then I think there might be absolutely nothing that can be done in game to trigger DYR increases by the user.

 

I'm not asking you to do anything that you consider cheating. What I am telling you is:

1)  Without looking at the PA you cannot make any statement about how Youth Generation is working on your save, so I/you/anyone can not make any meaningful observations from it, nor can you dispute any data based on PA without having reviewed PA. If you are worried that analysing the data in your save might make you "cheat", you can do your own experiment by simulating 10 seasons and then looking at the PA of regens in that sim, or perhaps looking at the save games for that person who generated 200 years worth.

2) The wonderkid descriptor is entirely based on CA. That list is entirely based on CA and reputation. Having 4 scottish regens in the top 50 wonderkids only says something about the CA and Reputation of those players, it says nothing about their PA. If it says nothing about their PA, then it says nothing about how youth generation is working. Like I said, all 4 of these wonderkids could have a PA of less than 150 and still be classed as wonderkids. They could all even have PA of less than 140. I managed to generate 3 or 4 Scottish wonderkids through my academy and as i said: the highest PA of this group was 141. Whereas the Scottish players spawned in England did not get wonderkid labels but had PAs 150+.

In fact to point this out even more: Meet James Berrios, the 2031 World U21 Footballer of the Year and 2031 European Golden boy that I signed. Not only was he a wonderkid but he was able to win these awards. His PA? Guess what: also only 141.

So there you have it, now you know how inaccurate those lists are and the Wonderkid descriptor is when determining the PA of a player.

Edited January 10, 2022 by CosmicCreepers

[CosmicCreepers]

46 minutes ago, Renyy said:

A minimum of 135 PA is required IIRC

Yes but that's a given, as a minimum of 135 CA is needed to gain the descriptor and PA cant be lower than CA :')

[vikeologist]

After 5 years the DYR for Scotland in my Scotland-centric save has finally crept up by 1, from 83 to 84.

On course to overtake Germany in about 2374.

I think I said that I'd like the DYR to be able to improve by 2 every 10 seasons, but possibly the game could handle a shift of up to 4 without becoming 'broken' or 'unrealistic'. It's a balance though, and of course we all have different opinions and wishes.

Incidentally, I know there's a lot of posts in this thread; some good, some bad, but I think the good ones are helpful and interesting.

It's not just endlessly retreading the same points, and I'm not posting with the aim of arguing with people.

If we think that the game's not working as it should, there's a bug thread on this very topic.

If we have insights into how it is operating, or how we would ideally like it to operate, we have this discussion thread.

[Kosmosis]

Does anyone know how the dynamic youth rating works when you are at a club based in one nation but playing in another. (such as vaduz playing in switzerland but being based in Liechtenstein). would the swiss YR go up or would the Liechtensteiner YR go up?

[Kosmosis]

4 minutes ago, Renyy said:

It's not affected by performances.

Source? not that I dont believe you I just thought it was one of the factors

[Kosmosis]

1 hour ago, Renyy said:

In the bug thread that's been linked a few times over the last few pages.

From the SI employee from said bug thread "There are several factors at play with National Youth Ratings, and whilst in-game success is one of them, it's also dependent upon the nation's ability to improve their footballing infrastructure." so it is a factor just not the only factor

[Daveincid]

I already see what's likely to be happening the next few hours ... good luck to all the mods in here

Edited January 14, 2022 by Daveincid

[santy001]

Please refrain from tagging specific staff members, if you've got general queries about things then these can be answered and potentially referred where possible but it isn't particularly fair and may not be possible for staff members to give you the information you're after. 

[gargmukul121]

I've just started a fresh San Marino Challenge, managing the San Marino National Team as well as the new Victor San Marino club team in the Italian league structure - so this subject is really interesting for this save.

 

vidmate

mobdro

Edited February 7, 2022 by gargmukul121

[Peter G]

Well, Zealand's video is certainly eye opening

[vikeologist]

1 hour ago, Daveincid said:

I already see what's likely to be happening the next few hours ... good luck to all the mods in here

Ah, now I understand your post.

I hadn't appreciated how many people would have been unaware of this before Zealand's video.

Edited January 14, 2022 by vikeologist

[Daveincid]

Before people throw their FM22-longterm-save away because of a specific YouTuber-Video that says "Dynamic Youth Rating is a lie":
San Marino
Left: default game
Right: ONLY facilities adjusted, same Youth Rating
Feel free to check the save-games yourself ( https://www.mediafire.com/file/r781mteaz3e1c7n/San_Marino_DYR_Test.zip/file)

Wish you all a nice weekend and ENJOY your existing save-games

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Daveincid

[duesouth]

Just watched Zealand's video.  At 4:11, got to say I was very excited as it appears I am famous - I'm sure my wife will be mega impressed when I tell her all about it later!!  On the flip side, I am a "complainer" and wrote "vitriol" - I call it constructive feedback, but that's the price of fame!!

Anyway, delighted to see this issue pushed to the top of the SI in-tray by one of the big streamers.  I think his summary is basically what I was saying - FM is not realistic when I can take over Victor San Marino in L5 of Italy (Eccellenza) and win 4 straight promotions and get to Serie A.  Or qualify for the group stage of the Champions League with a San Marino League team (Cosmos) in my 4th season of the save (I got lucky with the draw, but still...).  There's 0.0000000% chance that happens in real life.  There's probably about the same chance that happens irl in 50 years!!  But I've done this in my San Marino Challenge save.  Realism with something like DYR should match what you can achieve in game, not in the real world.  If the game doesn't move with what you are achieving in game in a long term save, then guess what?  People get frustrated and you can see that here and to a greater extent in the comments on YouTube below his video (mods - it could be worse, you could be moderating on YT!!!).  And for anyone who wants that realism - the DYR realism "slider" that someone suggested would keep both "camps" that seem to have appeared on this thread happy.

Now, at this stage of my save with San Marino now 172nd in the world rankings, promoted to Nations League Group C and able to draw 2-2 away to Ireland, would I expect a change in DYR?  No.  However, I would expect interest in the game to be much, much higher with a Serie A team and a San Marino League team in the CL group stages.  That should lead to more young players in my youth recruitment area to be very excited about football.  Down the road, I would think that would lead to more and better (and some would be Italian, living just outside of San Marino, basically in your youth recruitment umbrella and perhaps a bit outside) youth players, particularly with facilities/junior coaching improving.

I 100% agree with his point about if you take San Marino to #1 in the world rankings then your YR should change.  I thought world ranking would be a key driver for DYR and I think the point he's making is the same as mine - it should.

I liked his point about being able to put money into grass roots development.  In the discussion thread raised during FM21's time on improving international management, I made a suggestion that in the same way you have input into finances/facilities growth as a club team - you should also have them as NT manager.  Prize money from world cups or whatever can be invested in different things - my quote being:

"...it would be amazing to at least have a meeting with my FA about where prize money (or any funding from government) should be spent.  Being able to suggest increased development of grass roots football, put money into the international U19 or U16 setup etc., push money to the clubs in your country to level up their facilities, or money towards coaching badges for not only your national team coaching staff, but for promising staff of that nationality around the various leagues.  Basically any number of things that could help push up your reputation as a nation.  Where we have youth coaching, training facilities, youth facilities and youth recruitment to level up as a club manager - it would amazing to have national team equivalents to level up."

Anyway, hopefully SI can put the Dynamic into DYR in a patch for FM22, which is what Miles advertised for the game after all (which has annoyed me, as it's basically why I bought FM22, nice to see from the YT comments that I wasn't alone with this).  I was resigned to the fact it wasn't going to happen - but perhaps SI will be more likely to listen to someone like Zealand and his army of followers than us on here.  I also would like to think international management will get some much needed love in FM23 before a World Cup and building something like my suggestions above as well as Zealand's for clubs to be able to invest in a countries grass roots development seems to be sensible (unfair to think that would be patched into FM22).

Love the passion with which the video was delivered.  Zealand is like us on here - we all have a great passion for FM.  Seriously, I hope if SI do read any of my posts they are taken as honest and at least trying to be constructive feedback.

Not seriously now: gotta go - my agent is on the phone!

[vikeologist]

This is a long thread, but I think on the whole it's been one of the more constructive threads on the forum, or at least GD.

2 things.

1. DYR does change a little bit, but most people are going to be gobsmacked at how little.

2. On that point of 'little bit', what is the maximum change that people have seen? For instance in a 5 year period in my save, DYRs have only changed by 1, if at all. I can see from other posts on this thread that others have seen bigger changes, but it is important to compare the change from the start of that actual save as different versions of the game have different DYRs.

[obasa_G]

3 minutes ago, vikeologist said:

This is a long thread, but I think on the whole it's been one of the more constructive threads on the forum, or at least GD.

2 things.

1. DYR does change a little bit, but most people are going to be gobsmacked at how little.

2. On that point of 'little bit', what is the maximum change that people have seen? For instance in a 5 year period in my save, DYRs have only changed by 1, if at all. I can see from other posts on this thread that others have seen bigger changes, but it is important to compare the change from the start of that actual save as different versions of the game have different DYRs.

In some test simulations, I've seen it go up by 4 or 5 points in one year. However, that occured around the years 2039 or 2040. The countries that were affected were Germany and France.

Edited January 14, 2022 by obasa_G

[Kosmosis]

I'm wondering if all the other factors (youth importance, FA financial power etc.) only really work to create a range that the NYR can fall into, and the only thing performance affects is your placement within that range. I wonder what would happen if you created a custom nation with a super low youth rating, but all the other factors mentioned jacked all the way up and see how much it can improve, if it can move all the way to 200, or if its anchored by its starting value

[JordanMilly]

1 hour ago, Daveincid said:

Feel free to check the save-games yourself ( If it's allowed to add a mediafire-link in here @JordanMillward_1 ?)
 

Sure, no problem