Why aren't some leagues dynamic?

[Dreamstreet93]

I'm currently doing a save where I'm a danish team in the danish Superliga. I've won it lots of time, I've won CL more than 7 times and I'm regarded as the best team in the world. But even then, the league I'm in, which is regarded as the 7th best league in the world, is worth nothing compared to say the Dutch league or the Portuguese league which are both below this one. One of the main reasons for this, is because the prize and TV money for the danish Superliga simply doesn't change. Win the league and you get 3 million euros at the end of the season. Why doesn't this change dynamically in game?

[Daveincid]

They do not changed in some leagues due licensing issues.

Despite that, you can't do simple math when it comes to how much money a league generates in TV or prize money. Just because a league is ranked 7th doesn't mean that they generate more money as a league which is ranked 10th. 

[Dreamstreet93]

16 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

They do not changed in some leagues due licensing issues.

Despite that, you can't do simple math when it comes to how much money a league generates in TV or prize money. Just because a league is ranked 7th doesn't mean that they generate more money as a league which is ranked 10th. 

If a league is doing better and attracting more people, playing more continental football, shouldn't the money increase to accommodate these changes? If not, then why even play in a different country than one of the big 5?

[Daveincid]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Dreamstreet93:

If a league is doing better and attracting more people, playing more continental football, shouldn't the money increase to accommodate these changes? If not, then why even play in a different country than one of the big 5?

As I said, in some leagues the money doesn't change due to licensing issues. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Daveincid

[Dreamstreet93]

2 minutes ago, Daveincid said:

As I said, in some leagues the money doesn't change due to licensing issues. 

Can I then change it with the editor or by any other means? It sucks to know that you can't take any league in the world and make it the best, given enough time and work.

[Daveincid]

Gerade eben schrieb Dreamstreet93:

Can I then change it with the editor or by any other means? It sucks to know that you can't take any league in the world and make it the best, given enough time and work.

No, but there are a lot of other factors which are dynamic: League reputation, club reputation, merchandise-income, ticket-prices, sponsorship-income, market-values etc. So even if you are kinda limited with TV-money, this doesn't mean that you can't improve the danish league to one of the top leagues in the game. 

[Chris Hamilton]

Always found the license prize money rule a bit mad. Clearly as time goes on players wages goes up and inflation takes place increasing the cost of rent, travel etc. There should be a gradual increase to Keep up with this or people will be put off doing any sort of long term save with leagues that don’t start with the big bucks like the top 5. 
 

Surely the game could have a feature where the sponsorship of leagues gets re-negotiated every 3-4years like would happen in real life. 

[Nacaw]

Not sure what this thread is about, I've played in the danish Superliga and TV money went up considerably once success started..

[Nacaw]

18 hours ago, Chris Hamilton said:

Always found the license prize money rule a bit mad. Clearly as time goes on players wages goes up and inflation takes place increasing the cost of rent, travel etc. There should be a gradual increase to Keep up with this or people will be put off doing any sort of long term save with leagues that don’t start with the big bucks like the top 5. 
 

Surely the game could have a feature where the sponsorship of leagues gets re-negotiated every 3-4years like would happen in real life. 

There's no inflation in game. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Nacaw

[Daveincid]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb Nacaw:

Not sure what this thread is about, I've played in the danish Superliga and TV money went up considerably once success started..

As far as I remember Miles answered a question on Twitter during FM21 or FM22-cycle that some leagues do not have dynamic TV-money due to licensing. I don't know which leagues are affected but it seems that the danish Superliga isn't

[kepz]

If memory serves, the Danish league only admits, like, ten teams and plays in stadiums and arenas with fewer than, like, 10,000 seats. Even if your club is the best in the world and whatnot, surely the rest of the league are still far behind you in terms of progress.

Why would such a small league, even with your juggernaut club playing in it and winning stuff, surpass Spain, Germany, England, Italy, or France? 

[ImDaWeasel]

When SI say something in the game is now "dynamic", it means nothing. 

[santy001]

An inflation model for the game would be nice but you have to imagine that's a long way down the road in terms of getting viable. 

When it comes to prize money/tv money increasing, its already been covered but hopefully there is some way in the future down the road around it. Would be better if all leagues could have it available there have been some I've run across the issue and its a little bit of a downer when you can only rely on European money to uplift the league and further benefit the youth rating of the country etc.

[Daveincid]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Renyy:

That doesn't make any sense to me. Newly licensed Latvian league has dynamic TV money, while unlicensed leagues don't. Well then maybe a league needs to be licensed? Well no, because lots of licensed leagues also don't

That's why I wrote "some leagues". I agree with you that it's difficult to understand why some leagues seems to be dynamic and some don't.

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Renyy:

Oh but it does, because the AI is limited to making transfers realistic to game start. Doesn't matter how much money you pump into them, the price of the poor players they keep buying just increases due to league rep and valuation biases. Merch, ticket and sponsorships also just don't improve to any significant degree.

Honestly I don't remember how the vanilla game handles it because I do change so many aspects of the game and after the changes there is more dynamic in general.

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Renyy:

You'll be lucky if you can pull 20m in sponsors with a Danish club after 50 CL wins in a row.

unrealistic input ends in unrealistic output. 

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Renyy:

Your changes makes it worse in my experience. 

 

[Brasilia88]

Could we have a list of leagues that are dynamic, so we know what to expect?

[FrazT]

Ok, guys- can we keep the discussion on-topic and not get personal, please.

[rusty217]

Some leagues are fixed. Although I believe you could get around that by playing an edited version of them (even if it's technically identical to the original).

But even for leagues that are dynamic, it's % based. The last time I calculated it, it was an average of 1.8% increase (based on the original amount, not compounded) in money for every reputation point for leagues with 160+ rep. The % gets larger as the rep gets lower (significantly larger for very low rep leagues), so low rep leagues would get much bigger % increases until their rep goes up and then the increases start getting smaller again.

The Danish Superliga starts with 134 rep, so let's say an average of 2.5% per rep point as a semi-random estimate. The EPL has 181 rep so that's probably about the max you could aim for. So if you get 3m per year for winning the league, the theoretical maximum you would get if it were dynamic would be 3m*(((181-134)*2.5)/100)+1)= 6.525m

So even if it were dynamic and became the #1 ranked league in the world you'd still be getting barely anything. If you want leagues to actually be able to catch/overtake each other you'd need to adjust the starting figures or reputations to account for that. That's something I personally try to do with my edited leagues, requires a fair bit of testing though since as mentioned low rep leagues increase at a much higher % (my first test of the Ethiopian league saw it easily catch up to Germany's prize money figures within a decade).

[naterego93]

Guessing Japan will never be dynamic despite being the second best Asian country on a consistent level.

[Spurs08]

3 hours ago, rusty217 said:

Some leagues are fixed. Although I believe you could get around that by playing an edited version of them (even if it's technically identical to the original).

But even for leagues that are dynamic, it's % based. The last time I calculated it, it was an average of 1.8% increase (based on the original amount, not compounded) in money for every reputation point for leagues with 160+ rep. The % gets larger as the rep gets lower (significantly larger for very low rep leagues), so low rep leagues would get much bigger % increases until their rep goes up and then the increases start getting smaller again.

The Danish Superliga starts with 134 rep, so let's say an average of 2.5% per rep point as a semi-random estimate. The EPL has 181 rep so that's probably about the max you could aim for. So if you get 3m per year for winning the league, the theoretical maximum you would get if it were dynamic would be 3m*(((181-134)*2.5)/100)+1)= 6.525m

So even if it were dynamic and became the #1 ranked league in the world you'd still be getting barely anything. If you want leagues to actually be able to catch/overtake each other you'd need to adjust the starting figures or reputations to account for that. That's something I personally try to do with my edited leagues, requires a fair bit of testing though since as mentioned low rep leagues increase at a much higher % (my first test of the Ethiopian league saw it easily catch up to Germany's prize money figures within a decade).

It should be a little more dynamic than it is. But in truth, it's not realistic for Denmark to every financially match England either. It doesn't matter how many trophies their teams win - it is always going to be a much smaller country with a much smaller population and therefore a much smaller TV audience to fund the prize money. Viewers abroad may grow, but it's also very hard to displace other clubs who already have fans - a large portion of the Asian market will always watch Manchester United now, for example, especially if they're halfway passable, even if they're nowhere near the team they were when they attracted that support. 

[rusty217]

9 hours ago, Spurs08 said:

It should be a little more dynamic than it is. But in truth, it's not realistic for Denmark to every financially match England either. It doesn't matter how many trophies their teams win - it is always going to be a much smaller country with a much smaller population and therefore a much smaller TV audience to fund the prize money. Viewers abroad may grow, but it's also very hard to displace other clubs who already have fans - a large portion of the Asian market will always watch Manchester United now, for example, especially if they're halfway passable, even if they're nowhere near the team they were when they attracted that support. 

Oh, I agree! The population and economy are massive factors in why certain leagues are as valuable as they are. The culture of the country and popularity of the sport matter a huge amount too. No matter how much success teams have it's not going to affect the population/economy. Might be able to make the sport more popular in the country, but even that's not guaranteed.

[rusty217]

14 minutes ago, Renyy said:

In this context those leagues are considered static, because well the difference is negligible. Actual dynamic leagues like the Latvian I received something in the ballpark of 2000% increase.

They're definitely not "static". You get around 90m for winning the German Bundesliga. If that were to increase by 10 reputation points (which is very possible and would mean it would still be behind the EPL and La Liga in reputation) that'd be approximately an 18% increase in prize money. 18% of 90m is 16.2m. An increase of 16m+ per year is pretty significant! It's also worth noting that it goes both ways. If the reputation decreases then the prize money would go down too.

Also, to reiterate, these % figures are just estimations based on my observations so far. They're definitely not exact figures.

11 minutes ago, Renyy said:

If the increase continued in the same fashion you'd be looking at 30-40m a year, which is definitely not barely anything. 

Except it wouldn't increase any further since you'd already be effectively at the maximum reputation. Even if you were to get to the absolute maximum rep of 200 (which I don't believe is possible for leagues) then it'd still only be approximately 8.7m per year.

11 minutes ago, Renyy said:

How are you adjusting prize money based on reputation? There's no bias for that. 

Insert prize money/reputation figures, start a save, simulate x years and see what the new reputation/prize money figures are. Adjust up or down accordingly. Repeat the process until you're happy with the movement of prize money.

11 minutes ago, Renyy said:

So make a league from scratch and you get dynamic TV by default?

You should do, yes. I'm not 100% sure on the TV money, but the prize money is definitely dynamic by default.

[rusty217]

3 minutes ago, Renyy said:

Except I'm making 25m right now at mid 150s. 

So you're not creating dynamic prize money, you're setting a static starting point that it will hover around? The goal here is to have prize and TV money be realistic on save start, but dynamic so it will keep up with the development of the league in a realistic manner. 

How it currently works is that prize money is soft capped so it'll just deviate from the static value slightly based on performances. Also prize money isn't required for a tournament so if you leave it blank there just won't be any ime. 

In the Danish Superliga?

3 minutes ago, Renyy said:

So you're not creating dynamic prize money, you're setting a static starting point that it will hover around? The goal here is to have prize and TV money be realistic on save start, but dynamic so it will keep up with the development of the league in a realistic manner. 

How it currently works is that prize money is soft capped so it'll just deviate from the static value slightly based on performances. Also prize money isn't required for a tournament so if you leave it blank there just won't be any ime. 

Ok. That is dynamic though. It changes based on reputation, it's dynamic.

 

 

[rusty217]

24 minutes ago, Renyy said:

In the latvian league as mentioned. 

Yeah and the game has "Dynamic" Youth Rating, but again as mentioned, not the topic of this discussion. 

I was talking about the theoretical maximum for the Danish Superliga since that's what the thread was originally about. If you have a different starting point then the end result is of course going to be different.

[rusty217]

24 minutes ago, Renyy said:

The starting point is less and way less than that of the Danish League. That league has dynamic TV money, Danish doesn't. That's the difference. 

I did mention that the % increase for prize money is significantly higher for lower rep leagues. The Danish league starts about 130 rep, the Latvian league around 75. So it would see a significantly higher increase. I also mentioned my Ethiopia experiment (around 30 rep) where the % increase was so large at those low rep levels that even with a relatively small amount of prize money (IIRC it was 1-2m) it was able to catch Germany's figures while still being much lower rep than Germany. The % increase does tail off as rep increases regardless of the starting amount though.

It was also hyopthetical of if the Danish league had dynamic money (which would be achieved just by running an edited version of the league).

Edited August 29, 2022 by rusty217

[rusty217]

2 hours ago, Renyy said:

Prize money is not TV money. Prize money is not dynamic. Latvia doesn't have prize money from what I remember, or if they do, it hasn't changed since save start in a noticeable way like you claim it would.

You literally said you changed their prize money, not the game. If that isn't the case then I ask again to be directed to where in the editor you set dynamic prize pools. 

I've been talking about prize money since my first post. Prize money is dynamic. I've tested it, as I've said multiple times. I didn't change the prize money, the in game editor isn't capable of doing that (probably, I don't own it). I set an amount for prize money in an edited league, simulated x years and looked again at the now much higher prize money. The game changed it, not me.

As I've said, I assume TV money is dynamic too, that's much harder to test though. For prize money you can just look at the league rules page and see the amounts. They change, they're dynamic.

[XaW]

On 25/08/2022 at 01:04, Daveincid said:

That's why I wrote "some leagues". I agree with you that it's difficult to understand why some leagues seems to be dynamic and some don't.

I think I read somewhere that SI are bound to what the licence agreement dictates in that regard. Tried to search for it, but couldn't find it. So I guess some licences might have fixed prices while others don't. At least that would explain it.

[Daveincid]

vor 1 Minute schrieb XaW:

I think I read somewhere that SI are bound to what the licence agreement dictates in that regard. Tried to search for it, but couldn't find it. So I guess some licences might have fixed prices while others don't. At least that would explain it.

That would definetly explain a lot! I hope SI is able to re-negociate those license agreements to enable more dynamics in several aspects of the game. (or at least keep the option to edit it via the editor). 

[rusty217]

8 hours ago, Renyy said:

Screenshot of the relevant screens? Or just the files

At game start with 30 rep

5 years later at 46 rep

[isa-998]

this game plays out the same whatever league youre in

[Delvi]

I would like to make Italian Serie A the richest league in the world, so that can attract best players in the world,as it was from 1985 to 2010.

There is way of doing it through editor?

[rusty217]

2 hours ago, Renyy said:

You're definitely right, and I apologise for speaking so confidently having misjudged the mechanics. It appears the game doesn't respond to reputation changes until the third season and when I did my previous testing the organic simulation never produced a similar result and when I edited rep with the IGE nothing happened because I tested it for season 2.

I'm struggling to find a system behind the madness though. Presumably you can't just knock any random league down to 50 rep without significant side effects like players wanting to leave the league and players of an appropriate level not wanting to join, so it's sad if it's as simple as percentage growth ceiling based on reputation. That would effectively means leagues cannot be fixed, and those in the 8 to 20 range in the rankings won't ever work unless you sack realism.  More testing needed here.

But it does give us some transparency on what makes for good Build a Nation saves. Take a league with 50-70 reputation, give it 500k-1m in prize money (TV seems to happen automatically even if starting as non-existent), up their game importance to Very Important and the nation should be able to sustain the wages and demands of being a top 7 league if you ever get there, with youth rating steadily improving on the journey. 

I'm also curious now how far it can go. If you just set a reputation 1 league to receive 100m, what would that be like at reputation of 150+. 

No worried. If you want more realistic growth then TV money could definitely do that too. You said it's dynamic, but there are also options in the editor to change the amount paid on a per match basis based on the combined reputation of the teams. So for example you could set it to pay 5k per match if the combined rep is under 5000, 50k if it's between 5000 and 14000 and 1m if it's over 14000. Those figures should be affected by reputation changes too (so the 1m would probably be a very bad idea on a low rep league, might end up getting 100m per match on TV or something), giving you an extra way to control a steady increase in wealth as the league and teams increase in reputation.

[rusty217]

17 hours ago, Renyy said:

I guess AI leagues just don't develop at all? In testing these features I set most of Europe to 20 rep and in 2040 the highest repped league is 24. 

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe rep changes are done relatively based on UEFA coefficient rankings. If teams don't move up or down then their rep won't change. The problem you had was that you set "most of Europe" to 20 rep. If the leagues they're overtaking in the coefficient rankings have the same rep as them then it's not really going to boost their rep. I believe I said above the EPL's 181 rep is around the max a league should be able to get. I expect a +1 or +2 from that is possible if they do exceptionally in Europe and increase their lead at the top. But there's very little room to go higher than that since they're already #1 on the coefficients table and there's no room to go any higher.

So if you've changed it so that the highest rated league is only 20 rep, that's probably set the baseline for the new maximum, give or take a few points. If you really want to test it add a new country into the UEFA system with the existing setup and its range of reps/coefficients intact. Set the new league's rep to 20 but give them a load of money to ensure the clubs outperform their current rep and can quickly move up the coefficient coeffecient ranking table, then you should see the league's rep change quite significantly over the decades.

[oche balboa]

On 30/08/2022 at 13:35, Delvi said:

I would like to make Italian Serie A the richest league in the world, so that can attract best players in the world,as it was from 1985 to 2010.

There is way of doing it through editor?

Yes. You can change the money in Advanced Editor 

[rusty217]

On 05/09/2022 at 23:16, Renyy said:

How to go about doing this then, if at all possible. Sounds first like setting the coefficients all the way down would fix it, but then if it acts as a maximum, maybe not. Could I set the Russian league to the new max with England's coefficients since they're banned anyway? They really gotta make dynamics difficult huh. 

No idea, sorry. I don't know exactly how the dynamic reputation system works. I'm just assuming it's based on coefficients, and the max being based on the current highest rated league makes sense at least. It's not fully based on coefficients since North and South America don't have them but still have dynamic reputation. Although if you create new continental competitions for a continent then it breaks dynamic reputations and everything just becomes static too, so there's definitely a link with the default continental competitions at least.

Using russia probably wouldn't work. They've basically been completely removed from the european qualifying system so shouldn't affect it in any way.