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New Champions League set-up, how do you guys like it?

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Lord Rowell

Lord Rowell

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Posted
10 hours ago, nico_france said:

Someone knows how it really works ?

How on earth, when i'm the title holder in my country, i can get this kind of draw for the first phase ?

 

CL draw.png

If you look at the UEFA Club coefficient rankings, you've got a fair spread there. Remember Barcelona haven't done well recently and aren't the power they used to be. Dortmund are usually a side that makes R16 at best, ditto Spurs, Napoli.
You've just been a bit unlucky in getting Arsenal and Napoli, both of whom on very current form are resurgent. Also Newcastle will be VERY low in rankings but with the Saudi money they're an overnight force.

Everything is working properly as far as I can see - you just got a bit of bad luck :(

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ElJuanvito

ElJuanvito

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hace 12 horas, nico_france dijo:

Someone knows how it really works ?

How on earth, when i'm the title holder in my country, i can get this kind of draw for the first phase ?

 

CL draw.png

 

Dortmund and Napoli were Pot 3 in this season's real life Champions League, and Arsenal haven't been too great in Europe lately, so they could conceivably be Pot 3 in your save (unless they just won their respective leagues). Newcastle is going to need a few seasons to build up their coefficient, they will be a Pot 4 monster until then. As said above, I think you just got unlucky.

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rusty217

rusty217

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Posted
22 hours ago, nico_france said:

Someone knows how it really works ?

How on earth, when i'm the title holder in my country, i can get this kind of draw for the first phase ?

The draw is fixed. eg.

Spoiler

team 1 plays teams 5, 10, 9 19, 20, 28, 11 & 29 in that order. That's the case every season.

I'm not sure how exactly it determines which team is which number, I'd assume it's sorted by UEFA coefficient with the highest ranked team being #1 and so on, but I haven't seen anything to confirm that.

 

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ElJuanvito

ElJuanvito

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hace 4 horas, rusty217 dijo:

The draw is fixed. eg.

  Revelar contenido oculto

team 1 plays teams 5, 10, 9 19, 20, 28, 11 & 29 in that order. That's the case every season.

I'm not sure how exactly it determines which team is which number, I'd assume it's sorted by UEFA coefficient with the highest ranked team being #1 and so on, but I haven't seen anything to confirm that.

 

Got a source for that?

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tajj7

tajj7

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It is what it is in game, was a surprise when Champions League fixtures just appeared without any draw or anything. But IRL it's clearly just to make it easier for the big teams not to fail out of groups, more games so if they fail one/two it matters less, no groups with 3 lesser teams due to draws and no guaranteed home/away fixtures for those smaller teams to upset a bigger team.

Add in the wildcards and it basically just stealth Super League, the Super League clubs may not have got their way but the pressure they applied has basically produced this. They want their place at the top table to be exclusive and not threatened, this goes a long way to doing that. I expect us to see less Villareals or Ajaxs or Atalantas etc. in the future. Plus making the Champions league like that, with even more money in it (more group games) just makes the Champions League impact on lesser league more keenly felt and pushes the divide more between the haves and have nots. It already makes a huge difference in the PL and that is the richest league in the world that equally divides TV money, the CL completely distorts other leagues like the Dutch league etc. because that £20-30-40 million from say a decent group stage and getting to the knockout stage can be two, three times the budget of many other clubs in those leagues. IIRC when Ajax got to the semi-finals of the CL their income that year was 20 times that of the bottom club in the Eredivisie, 20 times, how are you supposed to get any competition from something like that? Like I said it's already bad enough in the PL despite the wealth the other 16 clubs get from the league, you can't compete with that gap of finances. 

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HighFlyingDwarf

HighFlyingDwarf

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I just played the Europa League League Phase for the first time. I have two main points.

1. The diversity of matchups does create a certain degree of excitement.

2. There will be major blowback from people who see the Champions League as turning into a Super League via the backdoor, just owned by UEFA.

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Cobblers

Cobblers

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27 minutes ago, GreyedOutMan said:

Co-efficients...

Correct. 

LFC fans had the same issue when they won the EPL during Covid... they automatically thought they were the best team in Europe after that, but coefficient would say other wise. 

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Petros7

Petros7

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4 hours ago, HighFlyingDwarf said:

I just played the Europa League League Phase for the first time. I have two main points.

1. The diversity of matchups does create a certain degree of excitement.

2. There will be major blowback from people who see the Champions League as turning into a Super League via the backdoor, just owned by UEFA.

UEFA announced this monstrosity in May 2021. The Super League was announced in April 2021. People were too blinded by Gary Neville and Sky to realise that they are being played and the Super League is happening. The big teams and the top 4 leagues want a bigger cut and UEFA is giving it to them, as they have always done, because their monopoly is seriously challenged. 

The 4th team in almost all of the top 4 leagues could go straight to the group stage of the Champions League thanks to its country's co-efficient, while the champions of the 12th best league in Europe may have to play 3 or 4 qualifying rounds in the Summer when they build their teams and pre-season gets squeezed by international competitions. Tottenham have never won a Premier League and go straight to the group stage while Olympiakos Piraeus who's won 17 of the last 20 leagues in Greece almost always have to play in the qualifying rounds (3 this year from mid July).

And by opening up the other European competitions to those that fail in the one above, makes sure that the teams from the top 4 leagues that failed in the previous ones and those that finish between 5th place and 8th place in the top 4 leagues can win those too, therefore making it even more difficult for teams from other countries in Europe to win any of them. It's almost certain now that teams like Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, Panathinaikos (boo!), Goteborg, Dundee United will never play in a final again.

The next time you hear a fan from any of the top 4 leagues complain that the bigger teams are benefiting by UEFA or cry about the Super League call them hypocrites and laugh at their face because they are too part of the problem.

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rusty217

rusty217

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4 hours ago, Petros7 said:

UEFA announced this monstrosity in May 2021. The Super League was announced in April 2021. People were too blinded by Gary Neville and Sky to realise that they are being played and the Super League is happening. The big teams and the top 4 leagues want a bigger cut and UEFA is giving it to them, as they have always done, because their monopoly is seriously challenged. 

The 4th team in almost all of the top 4 leagues could go straight to the group stage of the Champions League thanks to its country's co-efficient, while the champions of the 12th best league in Europe may have to play 3 or 4 qualifying rounds in the Summer when they build their teams and pre-season gets squeezed by international competitions. Tottenham have never won a Premier League and go straight to the group stage while Olympiakos Piraeus who's won 17 of the last 20 leagues in Greece almost always have to play in the qualifying rounds (3 this year from mid July).

And by opening up the other European competitions to those that fail in the one above, makes sure that the teams from the top 4 leagues that failed in the previous ones and those that finish between 5th place and 8th place in the top 4 leagues can win those too, therefore making it even more difficult for teams from other countries in Europe to win any of them. It's almost certain now that teams like Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, Panathinaikos (boo!), Goteborg, Dundee United will never play in a final again.

The next time you hear a fan from any of the top 4 leagues complain that the bigger teams are benefiting by UEFA or cry about the Super League call them hypocrites and laugh at their face because they are too part of the problem.

Not really. Basically everything you described there shows how the UCL is based on merit. The biggest criticism of the super league was that it was a closed competition with teams guaranteed places, ie. not based on sporting merit. It's not at all hypocritical to complain about that while liking the UCL since it's not really an issue in the UCL. It's important to note that it's the top 4 leagues that get 4 group stage places, not England, Spain, Germany & Italy. Theoretically any country could be among the top 4 leagues, they aren't fixed.

You could certainly argue that the UCL is a bit too biased towards the stronger leagues (something I'd agree with), but you certainly can't claim that it's similar to the super league in that regard.

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Petros7

Petros7

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10 hours ago, rusty217 said:

Not really. Basically everything you described there shows how the UCL is based on merit. The biggest criticism of the super league was that it was a closed competition with teams guaranteed places, ie. not based on sporting merit. It's not at all hypocritical to complain about that while liking the UCL since it's not really an issue in the UCL. It's important to note that it's the top 4 leagues that get 4 group stage places, not England, Spain, Germany & Italy. Theoretically any country could be among the top 4 leagues, they aren't fixed.

You could certainly argue that the UCL is a bit too biased towards the stronger leagues (something I'd agree with), but you certainly can't claim that it's similar to the super league in that regard.

I stand by all I said, because "a bit too biased" is still biased. Also, all the things you said just prove my point.

You've got a weird definition of the word "merit" when you also say that you see the UCL is a bit too biased towards the stronger leagues. Most (if not all) of the rules are made in such a way that they only benefit the few.

So yeah, I can certainly argue that the UCL is similar to the SL because... money rules!

I just can't stand the fake romanticism of some people, particularly those that don't see that their teams are benefitting enormously by either of the two systems because deep down they are one and the same! Well, UEFA has fooled them all by further enhancing their own SL while they feel they beat the big enemy away! Hahaha!!!

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rusty217

rusty217

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7 hours ago, Petros7 said:

I stand by all I said, because "a bit too biased" is still biased. Also, all the things you said just prove my point.

You've got a weird definition of the word "merit" when you also say that you see the UCL is a bit too biased towards the stronger leagues. Most (if not all) of the rules are made in such a way that they only benefit the few.

So yeah, I can certainly argue that the UCL is similar to the SL because... money rules!

I just can't stand the fake romanticism of some people, particularly those that don't see that their teams are benefitting enormously by either of the two systems because deep down they are one and the same! Well, UEFA has fooled them all by further enhancing their own SL while they feel they beat the big enemy away! Hahaha!!!

It doesn't prove your point. UCL places are earnt. The top countries have earnt more places than the other countries, they earnt them on merit.

That's not like the super league at all.

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Petros7

Petros7

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1 hour ago, rusty217 said:

It doesn't prove your point. UCL places are earnt. The top countries have earnt more places than the other countries, they earnt them on merit.

That's not like the super league at all.

Hahaha!!! Half the teams that play in the group stage of the "Champions" League are not "Champions", just UEFA's way to reward the money "earnt" from the teams of the top 4 leagues and therefore a Super League.

The basis of UEFA's structural changes to the Champions League since its change from the European Cup is exactly the same as the one the Super League envisioned - it's the same teams and national football associations that influence UEFA after all. Money, money, money!!!

I think we've established as clear as a sunlit day that I hate the new Champions League format, but I hated all its iterations too - while you just love it to bits! Money, huh?

I have now said the same thing three times and each time your reply has proved my point! You can have the last say, bye! ;)

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rusty217

rusty217

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Petros7 said:

Hahaha!!! Half the teams that play in the group stage of the "Champions" League are not "Champions", just UEFA's way to reward the money "earnt" from the teams of the top 4 leagues and therefore a Super League.

The basis of UEFA's structural changes to the Champions League since its change from the European Cup is exactly the same as the one the Super League envisioned - it's the same teams and national football associations that influence UEFA after all. Money, money, money!!!

I think we've established as clear as a sunlit day that I hate the new Champions League format, but I hated all its iterations too - while you just love it to bits! Money, huh?

I have now said the same thing three times and each time your reply has proved my point! You can have the last say, bye! ;)

Ah, you're one of those that gets all pedantic about the word "champion". You'd prefer the champions of the Faroe Islands or something to be in the tournament than a quality team like Napoli?

Yeah, I'd much rather see good teams playing each other, eg. the matches between Liverpool and Napoli this year rather than Real Madrid spanking semi-pro teams every other week.

Nothing I've said has "proved your point". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hypocrite this link might help since you apparently don't know what the word means.
Being in favour of a competition where teams have to prove their worth on the pitch every year to qualify while being against the super league where teams have guaranteed places and can't ever miss out on the competition isn't hypocritical at all.

Edited by rusty217
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Petros7

Petros7

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Posted
8 hours ago, rusty217 said:

Ah, you're one of those that gets all pedantic about the word "champion". You'd prefer the champions of the Faroe Islands or something to be in the tournament than a quality team like Napoli?

Yeah, I'd much rather see good teams playing each other, eg. the matches between Liverpool and Napoli this year rather than Real Madrid spanking semi-pro teams every other week.

Nothing I've said has "proved your point". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hypocrite this link might help since you apparently don't know what the word means.

Being in favour of a competition where teams have to prove their worth on the pitch every year to qualify while being against the super league where teams have guaranteed places and can't ever miss out on the competition isn't hypocritical at all.

It's all Greek to you, isn't it? 

So, you want to see the best teams play each other rather than seeing Real Madrid spanking semi-pro teams every other week and, let me think, oh yeah, the best teams are the same teams that play in the group stage of UEFA's Super League every year - then yeah, it is hypocritical to claim that the two are somehow different. 

Also, have you noticed how your words are so close to how the Super League was promoted? "The best clubs. The best players. Every week." Those are all your arguments in favour of UEFA's Super League, aren't they? Oh, and in UEFA's Super League almost all clubs from the top 4 leagues are guaranteed a place in the group stage every year, making it 16 guaranteed places --- oh, all of a sudden it doesn't sound so much different from the Super League promoted philosophy of 15 founders and 5 annual qualifiers, does it? Imagine 193 matches between the best 20 teams every year rather than just the paltry what - 40/50 matches now. Doesn't it just make you salivate!!!

What did you say, there are around 16 other clubs in UEFA's Super League- not just 5? But didn't you say you wanted the best teams to play each other... erm, wouldn't that make you an advocate of the Super League, too? Why play against these other 16 teams when you can guarantee to play against the best teams every week rather than spank "semi-pro" teams every other week, huh?   

Is your problem that maybe Leicester, Real Sociedad, Atalanta or Hertha Berlin do not get a chance to play in this? They've hardly played in UEFA's Super League in the last 30 years, have they? That is why you're insisting with this? Because one privileged team is not as privileged as the top teams are? And your argument is that this one privileged team should get a chance, but not the ones less privileged than it? 

Yeah, right! Hahaha!!!

I'm a "champion" pedant, oh yeah! Not a "super" freak like Gary Neville, Sky & the rest of the hypocrites who freak out every time they hear the word "super" in football! Thank you for the laughs!!!

Good night and good bye! *mic drop*

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rusty217

rusty217

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Petros7 said:

It's all Greek to you, isn't it? 

So, you want to see the best teams play each other rather than seeing Real Madrid spanking semi-pro teams every other week and, let me think, oh yeah, the best teams are the same teams that play in the group stage of UEFA's Super League every year - then yeah, it is hypocritical to claim that the two are somehow different. 

Also, have you noticed how your words are so close to how the Super League was promoted? "The best clubs. The best players. Every week." Those are all your arguments in favour of UEFA's Super League, aren't they? Oh, and in UEFA's Super League almost all clubs from the top 4 leagues are guaranteed a place in the group stage every year, making it 16 guaranteed places --- oh, all of a sudden it doesn't sound so much different from the Super League promoted philosophy of 15 founders and 5 annual qualifiers, does it? Imagine 193 matches between the best 20 teams every year rather than just the paltry what - 40/50 matches now. Doesn't it just make you salivate!!!

What did you say, there are around 16 other clubs in UEFA's Super League- not just 5? But didn't you say you wanted the best teams to play each other... erm, wouldn't that make you an advocate of the Super League, too? Why play against these other 16 teams when you can guarantee to play against the best teams every week rather than spank "semi-pro" teams every other week, huh?   

Is your problem that maybe Leicester, Real Sociedad, Atalanta or Hertha Berlin do not get a chance to play in this? They've hardly played in UEFA's Super League in the last 30 years, have they? That is why you're insisting with this? Because one privileged team is not as privileged as the top teams are? And your argument is that this one privileged team should get a chance, but not the ones less privileged than it? 

Yeah, right! Hahaha!!!

I'm a "champion" pedant, oh yeah! Not a "super" freak like Gary Neville, Sky & the rest of the hypocrites who freak out every time they hear the word "super" in football! Thank you for the laughs!!!

Good night and good bye! *mic drop*

If you can't see the difference between having to earn the right to play in a competition every year vs just having it guaranteed then I don't know what else to say. They are different though.

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Teep

Teep

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I'll give an example to help him understand :
Current state : Man U finished 6th in PL last year and was then only in Europa League this year -> earn the right to play each year
Super League : Man U would be in the super league every year regardless of what they do in PL -> guaranteed every year

 

And lastly, before you add "but there are 2 spots for the top 2 unqualified coefficients with the new CL", yes, but they still earned their UEFA points, it's a little bonus if you had a bad year and lucky enough to get these 2 spots. Still earned and not guaranteed.

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GreyedOutMan

GreyedOutMan

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On 19/11/2022 at 17:04, Teep said:

I'll give an example to help him understand :
Current state : Man U finished 6th in PL last year and was then only in Europa League this year -> earn the right to play each year
Super League : Man U would be in the super league every year regardless of what they do in PL -> guaranteed every year

 

And lastly, before you add "but there are 2 spots for the top 2 unqualified coefficients with the new CL", yes, but they still earned their UEFA points, it's a little bonus if you had a bad year and lucky enough to get these 2 spots. Still earned and not guaranteed.

It'll be interesting how low you'll have to go to get those extra two teams. I suspect it'll very rarely be anyone in the top 20.

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rusty217

rusty217

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, GreyedOutMan said:

It'll be interesting how low you'll have to go to get those extra two teams. I suspect it'll very rarely be anyone in the top 20.

That idea was scrapped a long time ago.

The 2 countries that earned the most coefficient points get an extra place. So if it's a country like England with 4 places that means the 5th placed team gets a UCL place too, if it's the Netherlands with 2 places then the 3rd placed team would get UCL too. The individual club coefficients don't matter, just the club ones. Although last I checked it seemed to be bugged and was using the nation coefficient from 2 years before the UCL, rather than 1 year.

Edited by rusty217
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