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NOT SOUTHGATE'S LAST HURRAH: The England 2022 campaign

Rob1981

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Rob1981

Rob1981

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Nah, they announced a contact through to Dec 2024 which would cover the Nations League after the Euros as well. Doesn’t make a lot of sense, if we get someone else in for 2026 qualifying then those six NL games in Sept-Nov 2024 are the only chance for a new manager to experiment a bit beforehand.

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m_fenton

m_fenton

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I guess because of the type of guy Southgate is. If we have a dreadful tournament and it's time for him to walk, I'm pretty sure he would. If we have an OK tournament but the FA want some time to pick a successor without a rush, I'd trust him to professionally give his all during that spell. If he had a great tournament but doesn't know if he wants to stay on longer, there's no immediate pressure to sign a new deal.

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TalkSport

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I’m not a fan of Southgate, but even I’ve unfortunately fallen into the camp of ‘There’s no other options right now’.

He showed signs of changing with the 4-3-3, but tactical changes still lack for him and getting the overall edge in the games against the big sides. 

We have a meh 18 months in terms of football going into Euros, so it just comes down to winning the Euros. Can’t accept anything less. I just want to see him try out more players in different positions over that time, so options are expanded. The big things for me:

Foden long term position. I want to see him central for England, Saka RW and endless options LW. 

The balance in the middle. Rice/Bellingham/Foden. Phillips/Mount/Maddison. Try stuff that has that bit more creativity, whilst being solid. It can be done.

LB options. Chilwell hopefully comes back like he’s not had an ACL injury, but if things are not good we just have Shaw who can be hot and cold, both form and injuries. So need someone else as an option that isn’t Trippier or Saka :D 

CB pairing. Maguire I just can’t see being a Man Utd regular, so unless he moves in summer, we have to look at edging him out the starting XI and try someone else alongside Stones. Even with Stones you can’t be confident long term at Man City he’ll be a regular. Had it been a summer World Cup, he’d have been going into it with just 13 prem appearances. So we need to try out some people, especially in the ‘tougher’ games. 

Start Ramsdale more in qualifying. Need to rotate between him and Pickford, again to keep options open.

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Rob1981

Rob1981

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21 hours ago, pearcey_90 said:

Italy X2 are the only meaningful games we have till the next Euros kicks off. Rest of the teams in the group are poor

I reckon we’ve got one free date for a friendly in October because we are in a qualifying group with eight teams instead of a qualifying group with ten teams. We’ve already put a friendly in with Scotland for our free date in September, but that still leaves one slot spare.

So quite likely we get Germany here I guess, since most other big teams will have qualifiers of their own and won’t have the date free.

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enigmatic

enigmatic

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4 hours ago, Anthrax Dave said:

I wonder if Pep/Klopp would fancy it after 2024?

Don't see why either of them would want the England job tbh, notwithstanding good relations with some of the players. 

Pep didn't enjoy the relentless pressure and unreasonable expectations of Barcelona who he genuinely felt some patriotic sentiment towards, not sure he's going to enjoy the main part of his job being hounded by the press for [not] experimenting in a random Nations League game for us, whilst having relatively little in time on the training pitch or actual trophies to win. 

Don't think either of their obsessive attention to detail and long ramp-ups to get players fully comfortable with their system necessarily translates well to international management either, though I think Klopp might give it a go with Germany eventually (and as it's Germany will probably do better than England anyway :D.

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Coulthard's Jaw

Coulthard's Jaw

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Getting to the quarter-finals wasn't a big achievement and I don't think we should be celebrating it.

Absolutely no one is celebrating reaching the quarter finals :D 

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Harry Maguire had a great World Cup, but in the long-term we need to find that centre-back that will take us to the elite level.

Everyone wanted Maguire dropped, so feel like Gareth needs some credit here. And finding and developing another centre back is as much about the system we have in place for player development (which is loads better than it used to be) than who the head coach is.

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If you looked at the candidates right now, you'd see Graham Potter at Chelsea, Eddie Howe is doing a great job at Newcastle. Frank Lampard, who has a great history of playing for England, is at Everton. It didn't work out for Steven Gerrard at Aston Villa, but any of these could have done as good a job as Southgate.

But could they do a better job? Jamie doesn't say.

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Coulthard's Jaw

Coulthard's Jaw

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I don't think they are exactly the same, 2018 was definitely an overachievement in terms of where we got to in the tournament. Martinez got three tournaments where winning was kinda expected before people ran out of patience with him and I suspect it will be similar with Southgate, 2024 will be his third tournament which we go into with a good chance of winning, if we come up short again I think he will step down (actually he will step down whatever, he'll have been in charge 8 years which is a decent stint).

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The_jagster

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Martinez is unfairly criticised imo.

It's just not that easy to win knockout tournaments, even with two legged ties in all years but one, Pep hasn't won the CL in 9 seasons now. And unlike at City there is a huge gap to the squad players in the Belgium national team.

 

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GunmaN1905

GunmaN1905

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3 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Martinez is unfairly criticised imo.

It's just not that easy to win knockout tournaments, even with two legged ties in all years but one, Pep hasn't won the CL in 9 seasons now. And unlike at City there is a huge gap to the squad players in the Belgium national team.

 

Why am I not surprised you're the guy who likes Roberto Martinez? :D

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Coulthard's Jaw

Coulthard's Jaw

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19 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Martinez is unfairly criticised imo.

It's just not that easy to win knockout tournaments, even with two legged ties in all years but one, Pep hasn't won the CL in 9 seasons now. And unlike at City there is a huge gap to the squad players in the Belgium national team.

Yeah. Also stuff like Hazard being washed up at such a young age, when you're a country of that size you need a generational talent like Hazard.

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darren1983

darren1983

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Southgate took over an England side at a very low point, has brought through a lot of young players and has made them one of the most consistent national teams in the world in the past 5/6 years. People will moan but a semi final, a final and a quarter final in the past 3 tournaments is a level of consistency that England haven't seen in like 60 years. Yes he has his faults (what manager doesn't?) but he's done an excellent job and has England set up well for the coming years. Think the stick he gets is unfair and I'm no England fan. 

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skybluedave

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I think you could argue Howe could do a better job if given time but I'm not sure he'd leave Newcastle. And even then it isn't guarenteed he'd improve things.

And Potter I'm less sure of. He's seems a proper coach that likes 50 games a season, drills players day in day out and experiments with his team. He's hardly set world alight at Chelsea so far, his first proper big gig either. 

And less said about Gerrard and Lampard. I'm just not sold these guys would drastically improve results. Ask me again in 2 years time though

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Barry Cartman

Barry Cartman

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3 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Are we just going to pluck an elite CB out of thin air? Can’t blame Southgate that Maguire is our best option alongside Stones. You can’t pick what you haven’t got.

He gave a Serie A winning centre back 1 game in the space of a year, during a time where we were awful in the Nations League and Magurie wasn't playing well for his club, then didn't even call him up to the World Cup squad over Ben White who had found some good form for Arsenal

You can't say players aren't there when he refuses to play certain players 

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Weezer

Weezer

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Just now, Barry Cartman said:

He gave a Serie A winning centre back 1 game in the space of a year, during a time where we were awful in the Nations League and Magurie wasn't playing well for his club, then didn't even call him up to the World Cup squad over Ben White who had found some good form for Arsenal

You can't say players aren't there when he refuses to play certain players 

Is Tomori elite? From what I’ve seen Serie A is the equivalent of the Championship these days, I’m not changing my long standing defence because Tomori has had a handful of good performances in a farmers league.

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Barry Cartman

Barry Cartman

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Just now, Weezer said:

Is Tomori elite? From what I’ve seen Serie A is the equivalent of the Championship these days, I’m not changing my long standing defence because Tomori has had a handful of good performances in a farmers league.

Has Magurie ever been elite? He plays well for England, something you actually have to do to find out, giving a young centre back who has gone to Italy and won Serie A 1 cap in the space of a year is shocking in terms of developing your squad 

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Robokid87

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Yeah much as I love Tomori he was rubbish against us at the Bridge and then sent off (if harshly) early at the San Siro, I think it's fair enough for Southgate not to change his mind based on that alone and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets jumped by at least Marc Guehi too. That being said I'd be much more surprised if it's not Stones and Maguire still come March.

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Baptista_8

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1 hour ago, The_jagster said:

I don't think a manager who has a reputation for managing teams that struggle to score is what England need in the case of Potter

You'd think he would be great at getting the best out of our technical, creative players. And he'd have Harry Kane.

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Pukey

Pukey

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3 hours ago, Baptista_8 said:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12771474/england-did-not-have-a-good-world-cup-and-any-manager-could-have-matched-gareth-southgates-results-says-jamie-redknapp

Finally someone in the media has called him out.

I'm absolutely sure if his mate Lampard got to the quarters and lost narrowly to France he'd write a critical article. 

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26 minutes ago, Robokid87 said:

Yeah much as I love Tomori he was rubbish against us at the Bridge and then sent off (if harshly) early at the San Siro, I think it's fair enough for Southgate not to change his mind based on that alone and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets jumped by at least Marc Guehi too. That being said I'd be much more surprised if it's not Stones and Maguire still come March.

I would be. Fair chance Maguire probably starts like 1 or 2 games by then if all the CBs for Man Utd are fit :D 

Tomori is one defender we should be trying out in more games, especially if he's playing regularly for Milan in various big games. Easy to forget too that Maguire was having some poor games for England coming into the World Cup, so we have to looking longer term.

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GunmaN1905

GunmaN1905

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1 hour ago, Weezer said:

Is Tomori elite? From what I’ve seen Serie A is the equivalent of the Championship these days, I’m not changing my long standing defence because Tomori has had a handful of good performances in a farmers league.

I know you're doing the usual bait, but it's funny how a bunch of Serie A deadwood is currently dominating in EPL.

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skybluedave

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Maybe. We beat Spain, Belguim and I'm guessing 2 wins against Croatia were when they were in top 10. But not sure they were. Germany weren't ranked top 10 when we beat them. Doubt Denmark were. 

Tbh I can't think of many games. 24 seems a lot but I can't remember friendlies. First Nations League we exchanged wins with Spain. Beat and drew with Croatia. Then lost to Holland in semi final.  2nd Nations League we lost to Hungary twice and Italy once. Drew twice with Germany. 

Hang on. We've had 3 Nations League campaigns :D Other one we exchanged wins with Belgium, lost to Denmark twice I think. And then 4 points from Iceland. Not sure if Denmark were top 10 then

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Rob1981

Rob1981

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I'm not sure half of it should count tbh

Should be judging him on the progress he's made and the evolution of the squad.  Not sure him losing a 2016-17 friendly with inherited players like Phil Jones and Adam Lallana and Jake Livermore is the gotcha people think it is.

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Smallen

Smallen

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I’ve said it before but we desperately need a left footed centre back if we are going to continue building from the back.

Maguire had a good world cup and did what he could with the ball, but him having to work the ball onto his left is a big problem and slows us down a lot.

Unfortunately Dan Burn and Tyrone Mings (who has mostly been good for England in his defence) are the best current options :D 

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Rob1981

Rob1981

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1 hour ago, Baptista_8 said:

Is the stat that Southgate has managed us 24 times against top 10 ranked sides, and won only four games correct?

FACT CHECK

This stat is not true.  Repeat, not true.  Such is my devotion to Gareth that I've found a site with all the historic FIFA rankings on it, and married this up against all our match dates.

Games against Top 10 (Top 10 at the time we played them) = 20
Wins = 5
Draws = 7
Losses = 8

Losses include the dead rubber group game against Belgium and the third place playoff, also Nations League games when we were rotating players.  Wins came against Switzerland (2018 friendly), Spain & Croatia (Nations League), Belgium (Nations League), Denmark (Euros).  But excludes the wins against Croatia and Germany at Euro 2020 because they were just outside the top 10 at the time.

And want to talk about PROGRESS?

Up to and including WC 2018 our Top 10 success rate was:
P7, W0, D3, L4

Post WC2018 it is:
P13, W5, D4, L4

Same. Old. Southgate.

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enigmatic

enigmatic

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12 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

FACT CHECK

This stat is not true.  Repeat, not true.  Such is my devotion to Gareth that I've found a site with all the historic FIFA rankings on it, and married this up against all our match dates.

Games against Top 10 (Top 10 at the time we played them) = 20
Wins = 5
Draws = 7
Losses = 8

Losses include the dead rubber group game against Belgium and the third place playoff, also Nations League games when we were rotating players.  Wins came against Switzerland (2018 friendly), Spain & Croatia (Nations League), Belgium (Nations League), Denmark (Euros).  But excludes the wins against Croatia and Germany at Euro 2020 because they were just outside the top 10 at the time.

And want to talk about PROGRESS?

Up to and including WC 2018 our Top 10 success rate was:
P7, W0, D3, L4

Post WC2018 it is:
P13, W5, D4, L4

Same. Old. Southgate.

I'm imagining you doing an Adebayor-style knee slide after finishing this post :D 

(good statting though)

 

49 minutes ago, Smallen said:

I’ve said it before but we desperately need a left footed centre back if we are going to continue building from the back.

Maguire had a good world cup and did what he could with the ball, but him having to work the ball onto his left is a big problem and slows us down a lot.

Unfortunately Dan Burn and Tyrone Mings (who has mostly been good for England in his defence) are the best current options :D 

Think the importance of left footed centre backs is vastly overrated tbh. Don't think building from the back needs the left sided centre half to be able to play a long ball down the touchline to the nearside winger which is the only passing lane not being left-footed consistently shuts off (everything else depends on which way you're facing and where the opponents are). Would much rather have someone that can move and turn on the ball well (and actually defend!) than someone primarily left footed. Maguire is slow on the ball regardless of which side of the defence he's standing on

 

 

 

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