QF4: England vs France, 7PM GMT, Al Bayt Stadium

[Confused Clarity]

1 minute ago, TM said:

can't be bothered reading back but did Matterface actually say "England needed a Lineker, instead they got a Waddle" when Kane missed the 2nd penalty?

I'm sure some will have a wee laugh at it but that's disrespectful towards someone who is almost certainly going to becoming the England all time goalscorer and has saved them on numerous occasions.  I watched the BBC replay last night and Mowbray was saying Kane has been England's hero/saviour in the past and didn't deserve it

then again I could just start this with "it's Matterface, he's terrible at his job"

Yeah he did. I thought straight away that it was ridiculously harsh and unfair on both Kane & Waddle to make that kind of nonsense comment. 

It's why he's awful. No wonder Natalie Sawyer left him.

[Citizen Sandman]

Missing a pen is so easy, ridiculous comment

[nico_france]

May be one of the most intense game of the tournament in any case

Golden generation for England in any case as you have top youngsters that should become lethal in the upcoming years 

[Constantine]

2 minutes ago, Citizen Kane said:

He called it as a no foul originally so your comment doesn't really work 

And you're kinda implying malice on his part, like he didn't want to check it or something. The man and VAR literally did their jobs as prescribed, he didn't deem it worthy of penalty, was called in to check it and reversed it. How was he shamed into calling it? He could've easily said "**** it, it's not a penalty, carry on" after reviewing it. It was within his right.

Honestly, some of the posters are getting bit ridiculous about this. You were given two penalties in one game. That's rare as ****. You were also given free kicks in favourable areas, ones you could've scored from. Mbappe wasn't given few fouls he would've definitely got from some other referee. Maybe another would've also gave penalty to Giroud that one time. This one didn't.

You're neglecting favourable calls you've got while amplifying the ones you didn't.

[eenie]

26 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Whilst those are clearly the doings of an edgy 15 year old there was a clear bias towards the French imho. I think there’s been a not particularly subtle bias towards the traditional ‘big’ nations and players throughout the tournament tbh.

England notoriously not one of the big nations in football.

[enigmatic]

31 minutes ago, Constantine said:

Classy...

And I see some of you are still going with that "ref was terrible" rhetoric. Can we get a word or two from few neutrals, non-English users?

Because I genuinely don't think he's done a bad job. He was well consistent with his criteria. Didn't blow the whistle for every touch. Let the game going well. Honestly, some performances from referees were shocking in Qatar but I really don't see how this one was "atrocious".

English user here, but he was a normal ref that gave us two penalties in the end! We might have been better off with a ref that was stricter on tactical fouling, but he was consistent, we could have adapted our own tactics to it, and some of the stuff he waved away was definitely not a foul.

Think VAR should have given the Kane penalty appeal but I didn't think it was a penalty (or the second one which he did give) until watching the replay either, and I don't think it's the type of game or opponent where we can say if we scored earlier we would win.

[The_jagster]

9 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

England needed a Wostenholme and we got a Matterface

 

Jonathan Wilson reckons Wostenholme was a bad commentator (I haven't listened to his output so can't comment personally) with one famous line.

 

I don't think we can blame the ref for the defeat, the first goal is more down to Bellingham and Henderson being with the defenders marking nobody leaving space for Tchouameni.

The Upamecano foul on Kane should have been given but if it's a free kick it's not that dangerous. The Mount foul I can I derstand why the ref thinks he's buying it because he's not getting the ball. There was the push on Giroud as CC mentioned which was brainless.

I think the ref was imperfect but not dreadful, and I don't think he was that biased. The first penalty was a pen but even so Saka kicks the ball left then runs straight to make sure he gets the contact, I can understand why refs think Saka is looking for it all the time.

Edited December 11, 2022 by The_jagster

[craigcwwe]

 

 

 

[enigmatic]

1 minute ago, The_jagster said:

Jonathan Wilson reckons Wostenholme was a bad commentator (I haven't listened to his output so can't comment personally) with one famous line.

sounds like what Matterface aspires to be  

[AM99]

9 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Think Dyche might have done well five years ago when we were a bit bereft of confidence and all the other big sides seemed to have better players than us... the sort of situation he's spent basically his entire career dealing with

But the idea the golden generation is being wasted on defensive Gareth so what we really need is Dyche to take the shackles off is hilarious. 

I'd back Dyche to be a lot more adaptable with a better quality of player than he had at Burnley though. The only other name that really fits those parameters is Steve Cooper, and he'd probably be a better fit given he has managed a lot of these players at youth levels.

[Baptista_8]

32 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Tbh the game is 90 minutes, if a team is relying on the referee for a result and they can't win from open play, they probably don't deserve to.

I felt we were the better side in parts but we lack incisiveness in certain areas. We lack a creative CM and everything goes down the wings with Harry dropping deep because there isn't a CM who can create like he has done for us (until we try Foden/Grealish as a 10). We played really well this tournament compared to the last two but we didn't do as well from set plays as we have done which could have given us an edge.

Maguire was unlucky with his header, but other than that, it was fine margins and there isn't really an excuse. Another day we'd have won and we'd be worrying about how we'd break down Morroco. 

I do agree that we lack creativity. Upamecano just irritated the hell outta me. How Grealish only got 2 minutes is just beyond me. Him and Foden should be key players.

[sc91]

1 hour ago, Baptista_8 said:

@PMLF is Wilton Sampaio always that tragically bad?

He was pretty fair throughout, quite a good refereed match, quite even on decisions and I can't understand England's complaints. Even the game, it was one of those matches where it could go either way. Just a normal exit, under normal circumstances and you move on.

[Citizen Sandman]

8 minutes ago, Constantine said:

And you're kinda implying malice on his part, like he didn't want to check it or something. The man and VAR literally did their jobs as prescribed, he didn't deem it worthy of penalty, was called in to check it and reversed it. How was he shamed into calling it? He could've easily said "**** it, it's not a penalty, carry on" after reviewing it. It was within his right.

Honestly, some of the posters are getting bit ridiculous about this. You were given two penalties in one game. That's rare as ****. You were also given free kicks in favourable areas, ones you could've scored from. Mbappe wasn't given few fouls he would've definitely got from some other referee. Maybe another would've also gave penalty to Giroud that one time. This one didn't.

You're neglecting favourable calls you've got while amplifying the ones you didn't.

No malice pal. Just poor

 

https://twitter.com/ruckedover/status/1601873441707413504?s=48&t=xtRpQFJuRoeG3O7OthdxAg

[The_jagster]

Just now, AM99 said:

I'd back Dyche to be a lot more adaptable with a better quality of player than he had at Burnley though. The only other name that really fits those parameters is Steve Cooper, and he'd probably be a better fit given he has managed a lot of these players at youth levels.

I'd like to see Dyche provide evidence he can play differently with better players before giving him the England job though.

[Smallen]

the ref literally didn’t give a clear foul in the build up to France’s first goal and didn’t give England a clear penalty. I think that’s why England fans are complaining.

[m_fenton]

I don't get the "bUt hE gAvE 2 PeNaLtIeS" crowd - what exactly was his other option? There were two clear penalties to give and even then he missed one of them in real time. The fact he didn't give a whole multitude of other clear fouls in attacking areas is the problem.

[RTHerringbone]

I don't think the retort that "LOLZ the ref gave you two penalties, he can't have been biased" is a terribly good one, because they were two genuine penalties? Now if he's ignored one or two of those as well then maybe it would add to the (false) "the ref was biased" line.

He obviously wasn't biased but officiated in a jarringly different way to most / all European refs, but we should have been prepared for that and actually used that to our advantage. We didn't lose because of the ref.

[TalkSport]

I can understand now why fans get annoyed when their side play Man City, the cyclical fouls France were doing in first 30 to stop any transition and none were booked till like Grizemanns 5th one  

[Constantine]

Just now, m_fenton said:

I don't get the "bUt hE gAvE 2 PeNaLtIeS" crowd - what exactly was his other option? There were two clear penalties to give and even then he missed one of them in real time. The fact he didn't give a whole multitude of other clear fouls in attacking areas is the problem.

Classy...

I don't know man, I watched a lot of games calls even more clear than Mount one were waived away, even after var review. It all comes down to ref's criteria.

Same can be said about those fouls you said were not called. His criteria. It's really not that hard to understand.

I know you guys are passionate, losing to ones you deems mortal enemies suck but come on!!

[Baptista_8]

There was one where an England player was clearly fouled, nothing given, literally 10 seconds later a French player was brushed and they got the FK. There was certainly some strong bias, no doubt about it.

[The_jagster]

6 minutes ago, Smallen said:

the ref literally didn’t give a clear foul in the build up to France’s first goal and didn’t give England a clear penalty. I think that’s why England fans are complaining.

There's being annoyed at decisions and claiming bias towards the French or concluding he is a dreadful referee.

[Darren Moores Mum]

2 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

There was one where an England player was clearly fouled, nothing given, literally 10 seconds later a French player was brushed and they got the FK. There was certainly some strong bias, no doubt about it.

That was another clear foul on Saka not given.

[Confused Clarity]

5 minutes ago, Smallen said:

the ref literally didn’t give a clear foul in the build up to France’s first goal and didn’t give England a clear penalty. I think that’s why England fans are complaining.

Yet it wasn't a clear foul. You’ll see those both given and not given every week in league football. Plus it was down in the corner of the French end. France group the other end and score, with Mbappe having an even clearer foul on him being waved on too in the build up. 

It's not the decision that England fans should be focusing on, it's England's inability to deal with the transition from attack to defence during that play.

[Smallen]

to be fair, all referees are extremely weird about Saka. I’ve never seen a more uniquely refereed player.

[Smallen]

1 minute ago, Confused Clarity said:

Yet it wasn't a clear foul. You’ll see those both given and not given every week in league football. Plus it was down in the corner of the French end. France group the other end and score, with Mbappe having an even clearer foul on him being waved on too in the build up. 

It's not the decision that England fans should be focusing on, it's England's inability to deal with the transition from attack to defence during that play.

It was a clear foul. He was probably fouled twice actually. And I can lament both the foul and the poor defending.

[enigmatic]

Just now, AM99 said:

I'd back Dyche to be a lot more adaptable with a better quality of player than he had at Burnley though. The only other name that really fits those parameters is Steve Cooper, and he'd probably be a better fit given he has managed a lot of these players at youth levels.

It's not impossible that Dyche is more adaptable, but it's not impossible that a random manager from League Two is more adaptable still. No reason to believe the answer to England fan moans about not taking enough risks or using our creative players more effectively is a bloke who's credentials as a decent manager are based entirely around doing the complete opposite.

 

[Lucas]

9 minutes ago, Smallen said:

to be fair, all referees are extremely weird about Saka. I’ve never seen a more uniquely refereed player.

Only reason I wanted Saka off at HT was that I was convinced that Grealish would have better luck drawing fouls  

Saka played really well though, but he was harshly done by when there were clear fouls. Chiellini in the final of the Euros should have been sent off as well, I've not forgotten that.

[GunmaN1905]

17 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

I don't get the "bUt hE gAvE 2 PeNaLtIeS" crowd - what exactly was his other option? There were two clear penalties to give and even then he missed one of them in real time. The fact he didn't give a whole multitude of other clear fouls in attacking areas is the problem.

Should've started Sterling, he would've sold it better, like he did on EURO. I don't see anyone ever saying that's the reason England got to the final.

He waved off at Mbappe to get up like 4 times, 3 were clearly fouls. Selective memory at it's finest.
 

Two penalties, two or three shambolic reactions from French defense after set-pieces, Bellingham's long shot, Saka and Theo tripping over each other on the cutback were England's "chances". Both penalties came from situations where nothing would've happened, at least not right away, leaving us with Kane's chance early on as the only thing that actually was a proper chance and even that was from a difficult angle.

So for all the attacking talent, you created more or less nothing.

[Mr Adam]

The two extremes of binary in this thread are peak internet.

Either the ref was horrendous and England were screwed or the ref was fine and the English are just moaning.

Of course the answer is actually in the middle. England were unlucky with a few decisions, and didn't get the rub of the green. But thats football. England didn't do enough to win and France did. Job done.

England fans are of course going to moan about it. The same way the Welsh would if it had happened to them. And the French if it had happened to them, And the Brazilians if it had happened to them etc.

It's impossible to know if the Scottish would moan about it because I can't see them being in a similar position  (had to end with some bants sorry)

Edited December 11, 2022 by Mr Adam

[Jeroen Thijssen]

You got your two penalties, you really can't complain that much.

I think England played to its ability, played well - not lucky against France. Not really much more in it. A QF loss to France is realistic and not a shame at all. You can look back to a proper tournament - aside from the match against the USA perhaps. It won't mean much as it's just a QF elimination but you've played well - and considering the EC and this WC performance and play - Gareth Southgate is one of the absolute best national team managers you have ever had.

[arenaross]

Yeh I think the ref is a red herring. As others have pointed out, we hardly created anything of note and I get that's Gareth's thing but in situations like this it backfires.

Like yeh, we looked comfortable for long spells but also at some point you have to try and win a game. 

Bringing Grealish on for 32 seconds or whatever. What's the point? Southgate just a bit of a weirdo imo and I firmly believe now is the right time for him to move on. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by arenaross

[skybluedave]

3 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Should've started Sterling, he would've sold it better, like he did on EURO. I don't see anyone ever saying that's the reason England got to the final.

He waved off at Mbappe to get up like 4 times, 3 were clearly fouls. Selective memory at it's finest.
 

Two penalties, two or three shambolic reactions from French defense after set-pieces, Bellingham's long shot, Saka and Theo tripping over each other on the cutback were England's "chances". Both penalties came from situations where nothing would've happened, at least not right away, leaving us with Kane's chance early on as the only thing that actually was a proper chance and even that was from a difficult angle.

So for all the attacking talent, you created more or less nothing.

There wasn't a lot of chances in the game period. Tchouameni scores a great long range shot. Bellingham edge of the box shot saved. Giroud scores a header. Maguire's hits the post. Kane misses that chance in first half from tight angle. Giroud shot from awkward height saved by Pickford. 

It was a game of few clear cut chances as expected but France showed their quality with the few chances they had. 

[PMLF]

1 hour ago, Baptista_8 said:

@PMLF is Wilton Sampaio always that tragically bad?

He is certainly not good enough for this level of games, fans of several big teams here hate him.  

[Smallen]

“you got two penalties, can’t complain!!!” is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve heard.

[Pukey]

Ref was **** but wasn't why we lost. 

RE Southgate, should he go? Er, maybe? I know this is the best generation forever and you're always gonna get the idea we should win things, and well we should really, but it's international football and it's bloody hard. 

Performances have been dull at times yeah but I just can't have any anger towards him after last night. I think the set up was good, we played well, but unfortunately if you play good teams you can still lose. There's probably some intricacies you can discuss and see if there's things that could have been done a bit differently but overall I'm just seeing it as one of those things. Top level sport you can do a lot of things right and still lose because you're playing opposition who are very good too. 

I think fresh ideas could help the group but I won't be angry if he stays on either. Would be nice if we could play a bit more exciting football at times but yeah. 

[Darren Moores Mum]

2 minutes ago, Smallen said:

“you got two penalties, can’t complain!!!” is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve heard.

Especially when both were clear

 

[Rebs]

1 minute ago, Smallen said:

“you got two penalties, can’t complain!!!” is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve heard.

Yeah, it doesn't exactly take away from the fact we should have had 3 and also that their first goal shouldn't have stood. That is of course just my opinion, it's debatable and people can make up their own mind, but I'm allowed to have mine just as much as anyone's.

The game went how I thought it would, close and not much in it  on another day we win, this just wasn't our day. Mot sure if Southgate should go, think I'd rather keep him.

[Darren Moores Mum]

Just now, Pukey said:

Ref was **** but wasn't why we lost. 

RE Southgate, should he go? Er, maybe? I know this is the best generation forever and you're always gonna get the idea we should win things, and well we should really, but it's international football and it's bloody hard. 

Performances have been dull at times yeah but I just can't have any anger towards him after last night. I think the set up was good, we played well, but unfortunately if you play good teams you can still lose. There's probably some intricacies you can discuss and see if there's things that could have been done a bit differently but overall I'm just seeing it as one of those things. Top level sport you can do a lot of things right and still lose because you're playing opposition who are very good too. 

I think fresh ideas could help the group but I won't be angry if he stays on either. Would be nice if we could play a bit more exciting football at times but yeah. 

The last point is never going to happen though. We're so slow in the build up it's ridiculously frustrating.

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, Rebs said:

Yeah, it doesn't exactly take away from the fact we should have had 3 and also that their first goal shouldn't have stood. That is of course just my opinion, it's debatable and people can make up their own mind, but I'm allowed to have mine just as much as anyone's.

The game went how I thought it would, close and not much in it  on another day we win, this just wasn't our day. Mot sure if Southgate should go, think I'd rather keep him.

Three?

Kane/Upamecano point of contact was outside.

First goal was just extremely naive, it wasn't even a clear counter, more of a full build-up with everyone at the back already.

France won the last final with an opener that came from a blatant, no-contact dive, scored their set piece. The second one was a penalty for a handball that's never given anymore. What can you do.

I still think England was a better team, but one of the two things they needed didn't happen.

Either the biggest star delivering or a coach that's capable of making pro-active subs, instead of being reactionary.

[Pukey]

2 minutes ago, ginnybob said:

The last point is never going to happen though. We're so slow in the build up it's ridiculously frustrating.

That's what I mean, we're not gonna get exciting football under him which would be nice, but tbf I don't think a lot of international teams do. 

[TalkSport]

Think it comes down to if Southgate feels this side has turned a corner under him, or if the tournament was a last dance. 

As people probably forget approaching this World Cup we looked like a side that was approaching the end under Southgate. 

There hasn’t and don’t think there will be a standout side at this WC, which makes it painful dropping short again. 

[Gary_Parker]

16 minutes ago, Mr Adam said:

The two extremes of binary in this thread are peak internet.

Either the ref was horrendous and England were screwed or the ref was fine and the English are just moaning.

Of course the answer is actually in the middle. England were unlucky with a few decisions, and didn't get the rub of the green. But thats football. England didn't do enough to win and France did. Job done.

England fans are of course going to moan about it. The same way the Welsh would if it had happened to them. And the French if it had happened to them, And the Brazilians if it had happened to them etc.

It's impossible to know if the Scottish would moan about it because I can't see them being in a similar position  (had to end with some bants sorry)

Shut up...we'll get there eventually, at some point perhaps. 

Watching it last night, I didn't think the foul on Kane was a penalty, it happened outside the box but it was a foul. The other two were nailed on penalties, why it took VAR for the second one is beyond me. Kane shouldn't be missing that though, you can excuse it if the keeper guesses right and saves it, but to not hit the target from 12 yards is inexcusable, he bottled it under pressure sadly. I thought England were decent this tournament, but I don't think they're good enough to win it just yet. You lose Kane, there is no one coming in that you're confident fills that gap, left back is weak and centre half is pretty limited for top quality, but I think the team will grow and push on if Southgate can get away from picking those that "haven't let me down before" but are not in form or favour. A Euros final, only losing on penalties and a World Cup quarter final is not bad going for a side with Harry Maguire in it. Would love Scotland to be in that position.

[outlander]

7 minutes ago, ginnybob said:

Especially when both were clear

 

Well, the second penalty would never by given by VAR in the Premier League. It was a foul and a penalty, but VAR in England never overtunes it.

Then in this challenge French defender wanted to challenge fairly. But the push on Giroud was just a cheating foul with no intention of fair challenge. England is quite lucky that VAR didn't intervene there.

This thread is really weird with all those bias suggestions. As many pointed out already, this ref waved on a number of English fouls, too. There is no difference between that foul on Saka or on Mbappe. France didn't score because of a missed foul. England fully regrouped for a defence, no need to put any blame on the ref for that goal.

[skybluedave]

This is like the worst possible result for predicting Southgate's future  If we won then he 100% stays and rightly so. If we lost comfortably and looked out classed then time time to go. But this... is kinda dead in the middle

[Baptista_8]

22 minutes ago, arenaross said:

Yeh I think the ref is a red herring. As others have pointed out, we hardly created anything of note and I get that's Gareth's thing but I'm situations like this it backfires.

Like yeh, we looked comfortable for long spells but also at some point you have to try and win a game. 

Bringing Grealish on for 32 seconds or whatever. What's the point? Southgate just a bit of a weirdo imo and I firmly believe now is the right time for him to move on. 

Very true. I do believe taking Saka off killed us. He was poor first half, but was terrifying Hernandez in the second, Southgate just had to get Sterling on though didn't he.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Baptista_8

[Pukey]

1 minute ago, skybluedave said:

This is like the worst possible result for predicting Southgate's future  If we won then he 100% stays and rightly so. If we lost comfortably and looked out classed then time time to go. But this... is kinda dead in the middle

Even winning this and then losing to Morocco would have made it easier to predict! 

FA are 100% not sacking him but God knows what he'll decide personally. 

[arenaross]

1 minute ago, Baptista_8 said:

Very true. I do believe taking Saka off killed us. He was poor first half, but was terrifying Hernandez in the second, Southgate just had to get Sterling on though didn't he.

Totally agree. Saka was causing lots of havoc and Sterling was well...Sterling. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by arenaross

[Baptista_8]

3 minutes ago, outlander said:

Well, the second penalty would never by given by VAR in the Premier League. It was a foul and a penalty, but VAR in England never overtunes it.

Not true though.

[Darren Moores Mum]

2 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

Very true. I do believe taking Saka off killed us. He was poor first half, but was terrifying Hernandez in the second, Southgate just had to get Sterling on though didn't he.

I don't think Saka was poor first half. He got much better in the second though. He was being fouled constantly and was scaring the French backline from the off.

As discussed previously, if he's not gone off for a knock then it's a dreadful decision to take him off. A proper Southgate of a move.

Edited December 11, 2022 by ginnybob

[Baptista_8]

1 minute ago, ginnybob said:

I don't think Saka was poor first half. He got much better in the second though. He was being fouled constantly and was scaring the French backline from the off.

As discussed previously, if he's not gone off for a knock then it's a dreadful decision to take him off. A proper Southgate of a move.

Fair point.