QF4: England vs France, 7PM GMT, Al Bayt Stadium

[XuluBak]

1 hour ago, Pukey said:

About as many as France tbf, ie not many.

France created at least three big chances from open play. Giroud's goal, Giroud's wide open chance just moments before (decent save, but surely even Giroud is thinking he should've done better with that), and Mbappe getting by Walker to the byline and playing it back to Dembele (which didn't result in a shot because of an awful touch). But they weren't really pushing for chances most of the match.  TBF, the missed foul on Kane looked likely to produce a good chance, but both pens and the foul that afforded Rashford the late free kick were absolutely ridiculous defending. 

Saka played well, and was aggressively running at the backline, getting some fouls, not others, but without an overlap (or any attacking threat at all) on that side, it always seemed a foul was the best case scenario. Kane was decent, but if he's dropping deep to be the play maker, then the scoring has to come from the wings, or a midfielder running beyond him. That midfield doesn't really give you that, and Foden, for as talented of a young player as he is, seems to go missing in some of these bigger matches. Kounde was quite poor, arguably France's weakest link heading into yesterday, but seemed to get off pretty easy. For as much hype as there was about Mbappe vs Walker, Foden vs Kounde should've been just as critical and it wasn't. For as conservatively as France played most of the match, they didn't look defensively sound. Upamecano in particular was a disaster. Given the alternatives on the bench, I probably would've pulled him at halftime. But it didn't really feel like he was put under much fire as the match went on. After the first pen, there was about a ten minute stretch, where it seemed the game was there for England to take it, and it just never happened. 

I've been as critical of Southgate as anyone, but actually thought he got it mostly right yesterday*, until it came time to make subs. For me, he completely dropped the ball there. First, waiting too long, then the subs he actually made, were completely wrong. If I were an England fan, that's why I'd want him out. It's like watching OGS at United, except, Southgate has far more talent at his disposal, but it seems beyond his ability to know how to use it in different ways. This isn't even "Southgate is too conservative," Deschamps has demonstrated there's nothing wrong with being conservative, situationally, but you've got to be able to change within a match. Southgate seems a good man manager, and the players like him well enough, but tactically, there's plan A, and that's it. 

I get not starting TAA, you don't have the supporting cast to empower him to play the way he wants/needs, without leaving you too vulnerable at the back, but 2-1 down in a knockout match, how the F do you take Saka and Henderson off for Mount and Sterling? Rashford on was fine, but should've come sooner, and probably instead of Mount (I don't think Foden should play centrally most of the time, but in that situation, when you're chasing a game, that's when you gotta consider it). Even when it should've been full on desperation mode, you have two of the best crossers / set piece delivery guys in the world sitting on the bench? Why?  You're in a must-win situation, where you should be throwing the kitchen sink at getting an equalizer. What the literal F were those subs? I'm not an England fan and those subs pissed me off. 

* Midfield wasn't right at the start, with Henderson and Bellingham both playing higher/wider, and Rice being isolated and hiding, but once France scored and dropped off, that midfield setup actually worked well for England. 

[The_jagster]

I thought it was interesting that neither manager was wanting to make a change until late. I think it reflected how the game was pretty much in the balance until Giroud scored, and the innate conservatism of both managers.

[aggressive minor]

Yeah didn’t think of that, but surely TAA once we were 2-1 down, most creative full back around 

[kopsy101]

Walker was alright, it was certainly amazing to see him being beaten for pace. Mbappe seemed comfortable to run at him though whenever Henderson or Saka wasn't around, which was very rarely.

I'm not sure why Foden started instead of Rashford, to be fair. We knew that Kounde sucks against direct, pacey players. Rashford would have torn him a new one.

[Astafjevs]

Because Foden played really well in the last game, and can also be pacey and direct. Wasn't a need to change anything from the lineup given how well they played vs. Senegal.

[Bigwig]

Mount was getting ready to come on before Giroud scored so I assumed once England went behind they’d change the sub but went ahead anyway. Obviously won the pent but it wasn’t exactly a tactical master stroke and more a braindead defensive decision.

How many players are vying for that left hand attacking spot vs the right?  Probably have Foden, Sterling, Grealish, Rashford and even Sancho wanting that spot while on the right there’s Saka and…no one?  Of course some of those can do a job on the right but they’re far more comfortable on the left. 

[Astafjevs]

I think Sterling is better on the right tbh. Ditto Sancho

[kopsy101]

17 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

Because Foden played really well in the last game, and can also be pacey and direct. Wasn't a need to change anything from the lineup given how well they played vs. Senegal.

They’ve both been really good. Rashford was the most logical choice against Kounde though. By a distance.

[Ackter]

9 hours ago, pearcey_90 said:

Think it comes down to if Southgate feels this side has turned a corner under him, or if the tournament was a last dance. 

As people probably forget approaching this World Cup we looked like a side that was approaching the end under Southgate. 

There hasn’t and don’t think there will be a standout side at this WC, which makes it painful dropping short again. 

With a proactive manager England would have been the standout side.

Same can be said for Portugal and France too though.

[The_jagster]

30 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

They’ve both been really good. Rashford was the most logical choice against Kounde though. By a distance.

From the start or as a sub? France were quite quick to retreat out of possession, I'm not sure Rashford is ideal for that.

[kopsy101]

Just now, The_jagster said:

From the start or as a sub? France were quite quick to retreat out of possession, I'm not sure Rashford is ideal for that.

Out of order IMO

Kidding  Either, to be honest. As a Frenchman, I was happy to see him on the bench. He doesn't need the full pitch to accelerate past Kounde. Either way, Foden is a phenomenal player, but Rashford should have been in that position before the 85th minute. 

[Rob1981]

“Unfinished business”

Not my words, the words of Alan Shearer CBE

[Coulthard's Jaw]

If he leaves now it leaves us in the lurch a bit. Stay for another 2 years and get a succession plan up and running

[Bigwig]

I’m not sure what he does if he leaves now. Isn’t going to get a big club so all he can do is a mid-table Premiership side willing to take a punt. Feels like this is the peak of his career and does he want to give that up when some of these young players are only going to get better?

Suppose the FA might give him some role behind the scenes but even that’s going to be a step down. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Bigwig

[Darren Moores Mum]

2 more years?

[Rob1981]

I can’t see him ever going back to a PL club to be honest. He won’t land a top six job, and anything else is a thankless task. Why would he manage England for 6-8 years, then go to West Ham or Everton or somewhere so they can sack him after 18 months because he’s 13th and not 8th. 

He’s much more likely to move upstairs at the FA, then make a ton of money with a side hustle doing speaking gigs on sports psychology or something.

[Weezer]

Has Southgate actually intimated that he’s after a ‘top job’ after England or is everybody just assuming?

He’s not stupid and he doesn’t seem the egotistical or ambitious type so I’m pretty certain he knows he’s not landing a big Premier League job.

[GunmaN1905]

18 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I can’t see him ever going back to a PL club to be honest. He won’t land a top six job, and anything else is a thankless task. Why would he manage England for 6-8 years, then go to West Ham or Everton or somewhere so they can sack him after 18 months because he’s 13th and not 8th. 

He’s much more likely to move upstairs at the FA, then make a ton of money with a side hustle doing speaking gigs on sports psychology or something.

Thankless task.

There are coaches out there who severely overachieve with mediocre teams, outplay teams with exponentially bigger budgets and never get a chance, but somehow Sir Gareth of Southgate deserves to be Klopp's successor based off winning zero matches against top teams.

Edited December 11, 2022 by GunmaN1905

[The_jagster]

Löw won his 4th major tournament

Southgate is like an NFL team with a decent quarterback. You know the team could be better but also that a change could be for the worse.

[The_jagster]

6 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Thankless task.

There are coaches out there who severely overachieve with mediocre teams, outplay teams with exponentially bigger budgets and never get a chance, but somehow Sir Gareth of Southgate deserves to be Klopp's successor based off winning zero matches against top teams.

Literally nobody has said that.

Edit: also, you said Pellegrini was past it when he took West Ham to 10th which really proves Rob's point

Edited December 11, 2022 by The_jagster

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, GunmaN1905 said:

But somehow Sir Gareth of Southgate deserves to be Klopp's successor based off winning zero matches against top teams.

Where have I said that?  

Clearly he isn’t going to get a big club job based on international tournament results, I doubt any other coach would either to be honest.

But if he isn’t in line for an elite club, he isn’t going to go back to a middling PL side that chops and changes managers every 18 months. It doesn’t make any sense in terms of a career path. Especially when he’d have loads of other options to work with the FA or do guest spots with other governing bodies in other sports.

[Pukey]

Not even sure who we'd get in if Southgate does leave tbh. Wouldn't be against Howe or Potter but will they leave their roles? 

Ngl I'd ****ing love us to go for Bielsa  That's a bit of misty eyedness though.

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

But if he isn’t in line for an elite club, he isn’t going to go back to a middling PL side that chops and changes managers every 18 months.

I'm sure there's a decent number of well-ran teams that are willing to stick with their managers. Like Leicester just did, for example.

Quote

It doesn’t make any sense in terms of a career path.

Which career path are we talking about?

I'm sure that he's well off financially from his earnings both as a player and as a manager.

Quote

Especially when he’d have loads of other options to work with the FA or do guest spots with other governing bodies in other sports.

Are we talking about someone who's even a manager here? Or wants to be one? Or someone who lucked into England NT job after having staggering 1.17 points per game over three years with Middlesbrough.

You need a winner. Southgate is neither a winner nor a good tactician. He's a nice guy who built good internal relashionship and got average result playing a stacked team on "default" settings.

You can't be trying to win a trophy after 60 years with a guy who's always been a career loser, both as a player and as a manager. Sounds rough, but that's just who he is. The man who's scared to take any decisive risks or make changes just because he's always scared of that change failing instead of thinking about it's positives.

Sorry, but I've never seen any sports fan in any sport worship such a subpar performer and come up with absolutely ridiculous excuses.

Governing body.

If he had any winning mentality after England's job, seeing as he has nothing to lose, he'd even take a Championship team to prove a point.

[Rob1981]

Why is this so important to you?  

Someone that’s managed England for 6-8 years and had more success than any predecessors in living memory... he is going to have many different job options when he comes out of the role. That’s all. He probably won’t go back to the day to day stress of managing a mid table PL team, especially when that’s a gig he already did 15 years ago.

Not sure why that’s so hard to understand.

[Darren Moores Mum]

Sure he'll land a nice lucrative book deal and some guest talking spots.

[skybluedave]

I'm not sure he even wants to manage after this. He only ever managed Boro for a short time and left in 2009. Since then he did punditry for a bit and then a cushy u21 gig. He didn't even want the England job to begin with. If he leaves he will probably just work with the FA or go back to being a pundit

[TM]

reads the posts here and goes for a career move out of left field, becomes Croatia manager

[Smallen]

16 minutes ago, Pukey said:

Not even sure who we'd get in if Southgate does leave tbh. Wouldn't be against Howe or Potter but will they leave their roles? 

Ngl I'd ****ing love us to go for Bielsa  That's a bit of misty eyedness though.

Bielsa is the only realistic one I'd swap him for, even if I think foreign managers kind of defeat the object of international football

[GunmaN1905]

3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Why is this so important to you?

Because even as an England hater I'm extremely frustrated to see such team constantly underachieve because of a manager who's completely out of his depth.

Many years of disappointment have convinced you that he's the man after one lucky run and now he's probably going to stay with the team for another WC cycle.

And some of you people worship him like a god.

Just now, TM said:

reads the posts here and goes for a career move out of left field, becomes Croatia manager

He wouldn't last two weeks.

[eenie]

1 hour ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

If he leaves now it leaves us in the lurch a bit. Stay for another 2 years and get a succession plan up and running

Well surely it's the FA's fault if they don't have a succession plan in place? He could have bombed out in the group stages (unlikely, I know) and resigned/been sacked or he could have won it and retired. He's also been in post for six years which is a hell of a long time for a England manager these days  

[Coulthard's Jaw]

10 minutes ago, TM said:

reads the posts here and goes for a career move out of left field, becomes Croatia manager

I can think of a lot of countries that would give him a lot of money to manage them at major tournaments, would always be an option for him.

[skybluedave]

It's not the most exciting list is it. Christ, Steve Holland would be depressing choice. I still maintain Poch. Not fussed about them being foreign. He's got the best out of Kane in that 4231 he played. And we have the players to fit that well. 

The England job is much more appealing then it was 5 years ago. I can see a few different names being interested that weren't before, now they thinking '3 & half year contract, 2 tournaments, I could be the guy that finally wins something with them'

[craigcwwe]

Think Southgate will decide to stick around until at least the end of his current contract which runs until after Euro 2024. See how we fare there and go from there.

[Rob1981]

iirc his contract is until Dec 2024 and not July 2024 which is slightly odd. But it does mean he could stick around after the Euros and bow out with a Nations League promotion 

[JD nawrat]

don't agree with the thread title but this is class 

 

[Rob1981]

Barney knows.

[Pukey]

19 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

It's not the most exciting list is it. Christ, Steve Holland would be depressing choice. I still maintain Poch. Not fussed about them being foreign. He's got the best out of Kane in that 4231 he played. And we have the players to fit that well. 

The England job is much more appealing then it was 5 years ago. I can see a few different names being interested that weren't before, now they thinking '3 & half year contract, 2 tournaments, I could be the guy that finally wins something with them'

Lampard would be such a god awful choice, think I'd give up watching England if he got the job

[eenie]

Just now, Pukey said:

Lampard would be such a god awful choice, think I'd give up watching England if he got the job

Gerrard would also be abysmal.

Edited December 11, 2022 by eenie

[GunmaN1905]

Life is honestly a joke.

[Ackter]

Wonder if whoever comes in next should work with Southgate leading up to the Euros before taking over properly.

[error username in use]

I think you cut ties fully if you are to move on.

New era and new ideas you don’t want the failed approach lingering in the background imo

if we want another Southgate we might as well keep who we have got and see if he can build on things

[Coulthard's Jaw]

12 hours ago, Rob1981 said:

Barney knows.

Honestly, has the media and fan stuff been that bad? 

[Barry Cartman]

Not going to read 30 odd pages to catch up, but have been amused by Kyle Walker scoring low in the player ratings for the match, when Mbappe did absolutely nothing all game and thats what all the pre match build up was about 

Saka by far the best player on the pitch, no idea why he went off for Sterling, terrible terrible decision 

France once again will probably walk into a final like last time when they've been pretty rubbish and everyone will over hype them again 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Barry Cartman

[kopsy101]

13 hours ago, Rob1981 said:

Why is this so important to you?  

Someone that’s managed England for 6-8 years and had more success than any predecessors in living memory... he is going to have many different job options when he comes out of the role. That’s all. He probably won’t go back to the day to day stress of managing a mid table PL team, especially when that’s a gig he already did 15 years ago.

Not sure why that’s so hard to understand.

He's done so well if you also consider that he seems to always have negative credit in the bank. His face and public persona don't fit a superstar manager, nor does he have a successful club management portfolio so I always think people are looking for reasons to get rid as soon as he doesn't exceed expectations. 

I don't know how well he'd do at club level now. However, he's shown he can set up a team really well at an international level and I think this team is better than the team which got to the semi's in 2018. All Southgate can do is get his team playing well and dominating a game, it's up to the players to convert and not concede 30 yarders.

France have the best team, it's hardly a major upset. On most days, England win that game. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by kopsy101

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Yeah, Walker was superb. Shame he isn't 5 years younger   

[kopsy101]

4 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Not going to read 30 odd pages to catch up, but have been amused by Kyle Walker scoring low in the player ratings for the match, when Mbappe did absolutely nothing all game and thats what all the pre match build up was about 

Saka by far the best player on the pitch, no idea why he went off for Sterling, terrible terrible decision 

France once again will probably walk into a final like last time when they've been pretty rubbish and everyone will over hype them again 

Probably because he got beaten the 2-3 times he got a clear run at him and set up opportunities. Despite that, if you consider that James, Trippier or TAA had been playing, he'd have been 5 yards ahead of them, as opposed to 1 yard  Him and Dembele were managed so well though, midfield and wingers were all over them.

Saka going off for Sterling was awful. I'm sure you've been frustrated by this before at City, but there was a point in the last minute where he could have played a pass into the box but he took a touch and passed it back.

You say France have been rubbish, but internationals aren't as finely tuned as club games. Sounds bitter af.

[The_jagster]

32 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Honestly, has the media and fan stuff been that bad? 

I don't think so, considering winning our group and going out to the first big side we faced in the quarters was everything wrong with Sven

[outlander]

France actually beats strong opponents though. In 2018 they defeated Belgium and Argentina.

People praise here great achievements under Southgate but how many times did they defeat strong teams in the play-offs in the last 2 WCs and Euros?

Germany arguably. Not sure if they were not considered massive underdogs back then.

And lost to Belgium, Italy and now France. And a loss against Croatia obviously. 

Not sure if that is such a great achievement overall on the balance of those results. England was effective against weaker teams during that period. That's true but not more than that.

 

[m_fenton]

Ah, wheeling out the greatest hits. Shame that "he's too cautious in the big games" can't make an appearance this time 

[Astafjevs]

How have France been rubbish? Have you been watching the Euros on repeat instead of this competition?