Tactics don't matter

[wazzaflow10]

There's no tactic to tell your players to stop trapping the ball for the on rushing attacker. There's no tactic to tell them to stop winning possession and then immediately stop moving so the attacker can take the ball clean through on goal. There's no tactic to tell your players to stop just passing the ball to a non existent team mate and watch your whole team stand around while the opposition collects it and creates a goal. I'm sick and tired of watching a premier league team look like sunday league players  during away matches when they have excellent cohesion. It's embarrassing to watch knowing every away match they're going to shrivel up and die at the sight of the opposition wearing their home colors.  It's just a joke. Playing away matches shouldn't be a death knell for every single player on your team. I could see ONE or TWO players having a bad game or making a few mistakes with bad touches or misplaced passes. This is just ridiculous. If there isn't a fix for how away teams behave in the January patch it'll be a long time before I pick up this game again.

[DarJ]

okay

[wearesporting]

I don't have the same problem for what it's worth.

[xenomorphing]

52 minutes ago, wearesporting said:

I don't have the same problem for what it's worth.

yeah no problem with a football simulator not allowing any proper simulating am i right

Edited December 18, 2022 by xenomorphing

[phnompenhandy]

Tell us how bad you are at the game without telling us how bad you are at the game 

[wazzaflow10]

2 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Tell us how bad you are at the game without telling us how bad you are at the game 

Yep that’s it. Totally. So bad. Quite possibly the worst ever. Apologies mr guardiola didn’t know you were on the boards here. Carry on 

[Ferocious289]

Just now, phnompenhandy said:

Tell us how bad you are at the game without telling us how bad you are at the game 

Well what he is saying isn't far the truth in terms of balance. The away game advantage is artificially overpowered to the point inferior ai opponents can easily bridge the gap between the human  player in spite o form, tactics, preparation and morale. If you know what you're doing youcan navigate it around it butcertain events unfolding in away game has's nothing to do with a player's ability to play the game. Tactics are important but there is no doubt a whole lot of artificial randomness and rng is at play when it comes to favouring the AI in the game. You can be in a rich vein of form and suddenly play a sunday league team in a cup game or even a mid card team who are in a poor run of form, with low morale, where the players are 120 pa wilth their attackers having 12 finishing, 10 pace and overall average attritbues but because the game is away, suddenly human managed defenders begin making school boy errors, and comical chuckle brother mistakes while the ai team are capable of out running, physically overpowering stronger players and overall just being better in sync with the rest of the team than the human player's team,  I've seen a midfielder under no pressure play a simple ball back to a defender, the defender ignores and walks away from the ball, and the ball slowly rolls past the keeper who just stands there nd watches. These errors never or rarely happen in home games, but will always occur during an away game where you are unlikely to keep a clean sheet or reign supremacy over an far superior opponent.

I should not have to go defensive and grind hope my team plays a perfect game if I have 160-170 ca players with better attributes and pa against a 120 Plymoth side just because they are at home. The skill gap level should not be so easily bridged. What's funny is that high pa AI teams hardly see have this problem when they play inferior ai teams away from home

That's not to mention the AI's consistent ability to always be capable of scoring last minute comeback goals or winners in spite of how the game's momentum is in swing The AI is capable of scoring 2 goals in quick sucession at the final end of the game yet human player it's a very very rare occurance, Even if you are even at home and are behind you can change to go ultra attacking and you will be lucky to see highlights towards the end of the game of your team making an effort. Ifyou're unlucky you just may well end up being on the recieving end of a counter attack. And then there is also the one shot one goal phenomonen where the AI can score from the very first highlight 1-5 mins into the game or your team can be dominating yet hit the woodwork 10 times or your strikers underhit shots or suddenly refuse to shoot when through on goal as if they've in on match fixing, but the inferior ai can and will be clinical and you can always read when it's going to happen.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Ferocious289

[gunnerfan]

8 hours ago, wazzaflow10 said:

There's no tactic to tell them to stop winning possession and then immediately stop moving so the attacker can take the ball clean through on goal. 

I've seen this happen, but I interpreted it as my player (almost always a back) coming under pressure, trying to keep possession, and losing it. And it drives me crazy because it's something I used to see my guys do a lot when I was coaching youth soccer years ago, and would think professionals at any level would be past this, as it comes from not thinking ahead. But it's not new in FM, as I've seen it before, and in my short experience playing FM23, it seems to happen a lot less. YMMV.

[wazzaflow10]

26 minutes ago, gunnerfan said:

I've seen this happen, but I interpreted it as my player (almost always a back) coming under pressure, trying to keep possession, and losing it. And it drives me crazy because it's something I used to see my guys do a lot when I was coaching youth soccer years ago, and would think professionals at any level would be past this, as it comes from not thinking ahead. But it's not new in FM, as I've seen it before, and in my short experience playing FM23, it seems to happen a lot less. YMMV.

Its not that it happens or I expect them to be perfect because players should make mistakes. They go from world class at home to Sunday league players away. Morale is high, cohesion is high, familiarity is high. The only difference is location. I’ve almost never seen it happen at home. It goes for just about every team including AI managed ones. 

[XaW]

Are you looking for real answers or just venting? 

[SergeiG]

You are right tho, tactics don't matter as the game is to easy and you can overachieve by employing a basic gagnpress tactic and win 95% of games by doing basically nothing tactically.

[wazzaflow10]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

Are you looking for real answers or just venting? 

If someone has an actual answer as to why away teams play like compete idiots 75% of the time I’d love to hear it. I’ve posted in the tactics forum and got crickets. 

[XaW]

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

If someone has an actual answer as to why away teams play like compete idiots 75% of the time I’d love to hear it. I’ve posted in the tactics forum and got crickets. 

Well, do you make any changes for away matches? Or do you just play the same as you would in a home match against the same team? Let's just say, the AI does not do that. They are likely to be more dominant at home, while being more cautious away. So based on that, you might also need to change things up. I tend to be more aggressive at home, but I also try to be the controlling side no matter who I play. However, if I see I'm not, I change things up. What are you doing when things are not working? I would advise being more direct away. One thing I like to do is add "pass into space" for away matches only and have my striker in a more advanced role. That usually helps. This is generic advise, but I find it works rather well. Here is my home and away record for last season:

[rsihn]

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

If someone has an actual answer as to why away teams play like compete idiots 75% of the time I’d love to hear it. I’ve posted in the tactics forum and got crickets. 

Why does it happen in real life?  Pressure, hostile crowds, unfamiliar surroundings.   These are the reasons that teams tend to play more defensively in away matches in game and in real life and why teams at home tend to play in a more attack minded way.  

 

Are you adjusting your tactics to be more defensive when you are away?  Are you making sure your players have the necessary mental fortitude to deal with the pressure of being booed and jeered every time they touch the ball?  Are you lowering your expectations from your squad in the pre-match interviews and locker room talk to ease the pressure on the players?  If not, you should be as most real life teams are happy to come away with a single point in away matches. 

[wazzaflow10]

11 minutes ago, XaW said:

Well, do you make any changes for away matches? Or do you just play the same as you would in a home match against the same team? Let's just say, the AI does not do that. They are likely to be more dominant at home, while being more cautious away. So based on that, you might also need to change things up. I tend to be more aggressive at home, but I also try to be the controlling side no matter who I play. However, if I see I'm not, I change things up. What are you doing when things are not working? I would advise being more direct away. One thing I like to do is add "pass into space" for away matches only and have my striker in a more advanced role. That usually helps. This is generic advise, but I find it works rather well. Here is my home and away record for last season:

 

 

11 minutes ago, rsihn said:

Why does it happen in real life?  Pressure, hostile crowds, unfamiliar surroundings.   These are the reasons that teams tend to play more defensively in away matches in game and in real life and why teams at home tend to play in a more attack minded way.  

 

Are you adjusting your tactics to be more defensive when you are away?  Are you making sure your players have the necessary mental fortitude to deal with the pressure of being booed and jeered every time they touch the ball?  Are you lowering your expectations from your squad in the pre-match interviews and locker room talk to ease the pressure on the players?  If not, you should be as most real life teams are happy to come away with a single point in away matches. 

Do you both play 3d on comprehensive or full matches? I doubt you'd see if if you were playing key highlights or even extended. Or if it showed up you'd think it'd be a one off.

I do tinker with tactics for home and away. The thing is it's not just my team its the other team when we play at home too.  Its not that it's impossible to win away, especially as a big team. You often have just enough quality to win anyway. And maybe if you're dedicating your life to this game you can masterclass your way out of all 11 players having the touch and skills of non league players suddenly. It's not that I think playing away should be automatic wins if you're playing as a big team or that the AI is cheating me in some way. This isn't about getting FM'd in the last minute or the ME is screwing me in particular. It's that there appears to be some mechanism in my game where the away team gets all their skills completely nerfed. I'm not asking to be a world beater in every match but the home and away talent is seriously unbalanced - if not in final points results certainly in process getting there.

XaW look at your home and away records and goals for and against. There's four teams with fewer than 10 goals against at home. That's double than the number of times it's happened in the last four non covid seasons! 

Here's 21/22 season for home and away records IRL

And  2020-21

2018-19

 

and 17-18

[XaW]

1 hour ago, wazzaflow10 said:

 

 

Do you both play 3d on comprehensive or full matches? I doubt you'd see if if you were playing key highlights or even extended. Or if it showed up you'd think it'd be a one off.

I do tinker with tactics for home and away. The thing is it's not just my team its the other team when we play at home too.  Its not that it's impossible to win away, especially as a big team. You often have just enough quality to win anyway. And maybe if you're dedicating your life to this game you can masterclass your way out of all 11 players having the touch and skills of non league players suddenly. It's not that I think playing away should be automatic wins if you're playing as a big team or that the AI is cheating me in some way. This isn't about getting FM'd in the last minute or the ME is screwing me in particular. It's that there appears to be some mechanism in my game where the away team gets all their skills completely nerfed. I'm not asking to be a world beater in every match but the home and away talent is seriously unbalanced - if not in final points results certainly in process getting there.

XaW look at your home and away records and goals for and against. There's four teams with fewer than 10 goals against at home. That's double than the number of times it's happened in the last four non covid seasons! 

Here's 21/22 season for home and away records IRL

And  2020-21

2018-19

 

and 17-18

Well, that was quite the one of, here are the home stats the seasons before:

That's 2, 1, 0, 1 in the seasons preceding it. So the last season was an outlier. For me, that seems pretty decent. Liverpool are the clearly dominant side in my save with 7 of the 12 last league titles since the start of the save, so it's not strange that they are an outlier here, considering that kind of dominance.

If you think you have seen a pattern in your save that I don't, then please report it and upload to SI. There might be an issue and I just don't see it, but it could also be something with the setup for all I know. I was under the impression that this was more with your own team than the game as a whole, and if it's the latter, tactical advise won't do anything, then only reporting a bug to SI can help out.

[wazzaflow10]

7 minutes ago, XaW said:

Well, that was quite the one of, here are the home stats the seasons before:

That's 2, 1, 0, 1 in the seasons preceding it. So the last season was an outlier. For me, that seems pretty decent. Liverpool are the clearly dominant side in my save with 7 of the 12 last league titles since the start of the save, so it's not strange that they are an outlier here, considering that kind of dominance.

If you think you have seen a pattern in your save that I don't, then please report it and upload to SI. There might be an issue and I just don't see it, but it could also be something with the setup for all I know. I was under the impression that this was more with your own team than the game as a whole, and if it's the latter, tactical advise won't do anything, then only reporting a bug to SI can help out.

Fair enough. Still seems over powered that a team concedes so few goals at home in 19 games. But I know it's not going to perfectly replicate real life. I don't think the results are wholly unrealistic which is why it won't get picked up as a bug or on a soak test. but watching any match you'll see common themes from the away team just incapable of doing anything. For me its a process thing rather than a results at the end of the day. 

What I'm seeing looks like a complete nerfing of abilities for away teams more often than not. There was even a post about it this morning regarding possession being broken. Most of those games the team with low possession was with the away team being RM, MC, & PSG. I'm not getting overrun or trying to play super aggressively. I'd be happy with a point against the big teams away from home and often set up that way. I've managed games where I've completely shut out the away side with no shots on goal or a single shot and this isn't against League One teams. This was Chelsea and Tottenham and Nottingham Forest (who finished 5th in the league). 

Here's a game I uploaded as a few examples of bugs. It's not the best example I actually had a decent game. But two of the goals are bugs imo that only happen to teams playing away. i'll see if I can more games and pkm's as examples. that better illustrate of both the home/away dichotomy.

For the record...

Goal1: Im not mad that a goal was scored on a cross that was actually out of the norm and there should be more like that in the game imo. I'm seeing repeated behavior from away teams that look like Porro essentially passing the ball back to Diaz in midfield. I don't know what he was doing to stop the cross? I guess he gave him the olé there? That seems plausible. 

Goal2: Throw ins are overpowered for everyone. I fear throw ins more than I fear corners. But I can accept that just being Salah being Salah and half my team getting caught out. Aggravating, not a whole lot tactics can do about it because you're limited on throw in routines. But I get a fair share of goals too so it is what it is.

Goal3: I'm not mad about the push (other than that player is an idiot). I don't know why he did that but its a big occasion. Jordan Henderson got sent off in my first game in charge inside the first minute against Liverpool. So players do dumb stuff like that. What I see is a bug where Erikson and fernandes do ??? and then Shaw and Maguire keep trying to center the ball instead of clearing it. I don't know a soul in the world who would try to head the ball in that direction. 

There's a ton of other little examples. You can take them or leave them as examples of the away team flu or just being under pressure. We certainly watched France get shut out for 80 minutes today. But of course that was a WC final and a team that had the literal flu during the tournament. 

These things almost never happen at home for me. Typically losing at home is the classic "getting FM'd".

MUFC doesn't want to win.pkm

[wazzaflow10]

4 hours ago, XaW said:

Well, that was quite the one of, here are the home stats the seasons before:

That's 2, 1, 0, 1 in the seasons preceding it. So the last season was an outlier. For me, that seems pretty decent. Liverpool are the clearly dominant side in my save with 7 of the 12 last league titles since the start of the save, so it's not strange that they are an outlier here, considering that kind of dominance.

If you think you have seen a pattern in your save that I don't, then please report it and upload to SI. There might be an issue and I just don't see it, but it could also be something with the setup for all I know. I was under the impression that this was more with your own team than the game as a whole, and if it's the latter, tactical advise won't do anything, then only reporting a bug to SI can help out.

Here's me demolishing Newcastle. They get a couple half chances, yes but never really threaten anything. The fun really starts for the away team turns to sunday league players around 30 mins in. A great example is 15 seconds into the second half. Berardi just gives up on the whole play despite having possession.  In the 51st minute Khellven literally just traps the ball down for Van de Beek (who promptly loses it but should have never had it to begin with). It's just odd. For mee it sucks all the fun out of the game because I'm unstoppable at home regardless of tactic/players and slog through away matches despite tactics/players. It all just feels so marginal that I'd rather they giveyou the option to be a strict DoF so I can enjoy the transfer season and warp through time developing players than watch a ME that tactics feel like have very little influence over. 

I'm playing a significantly weakened side here too. I think the only regular starter I have is De Gea and Silva (Maguire at this point was on my **** list after a string of bad performances). I'm breezing past them like I'm Barcelona. Which fine, you'd expect Man Utd to win but its never even really a game.

Man UFC v Newcastle.pkm

[Os]

It is balanced that way and rightly so, home advantage is huge at any level.

 

[wazzaflow10]

@XaW

Could you export and attach the first four seasons of the combined table of your save for the PL table (assuming you ran it on full detail)? I did a test yesterday and found away teams were about 220 goals short of RL stats. This would be on the newest match engine just for clarification. So if you don't have it not a big deal.

Edited December 28, 2022 by wazzaflow10

[Etebaer]

Sometimes the game lets you lose a match no matter what.

That happened to me after sucessful (all arrows up) Teamspeak sessions.

I lost matches against vastly inferior opponents despite my team reacting extremely well to the teamspeak and it happpened twice in a similar situation.

The played the matches as if they never had played ball in their life...gladly it was not cup matches but league matches that would have concluded promotion for me though it happened anyway.

Sometimes its better to keep status quo...

But when mentals overwrite tactic there is little you can do especially when they are always low and you enter the downward spiral - then it becomes a mental issue and not a tactical issue.

The only way out is to make friendlies you will sure win (and expect a painful 1:0 against a beer league team) and then go all in when you meet a team in your league that also has low moral and thus mental issues and turn the spiral from downward to upward!

Edited December 28, 2022 by Etebaer