Southgate: Episode IV - A New Hope

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Do transfer fees mean anything anymore? Cucurella is definitely not a £62m left back (whatever that means), we see him every week in the league!

[Smallen]

if Howe keeps Lewis Hall in the team next season then we pretty much have Shaw’s replacement right there. He ended the season very strongly. Similar skillset to Shaw with Hall probably having significantly more potential on the ball.

[GunmaN1905]

2 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

The functional £62m left back? I'd rather we'd had a fit left footer as an option at least in the squad, but I'm not pinning us losing the final (when we had a left footer playing there) on the absence of Mitchell.

Or we can go with the massive flop left-back who still played over Grimaldo who had arguably the best season out of any left-back in Europe because he fits the system better.

Meanwhile, Southgate preferred Trippier over taking another actual left-back while Shaw was unfit.

[ajw10]

4 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

The functional £62m left back? I'd rather we'd had a fit left footer as an option at least in the squad, but I'm not pinning us losing the final (when we had a left footer playing there) on the absence of Mitchell.

I clearly mean moving forward as there's discussion on here that we are light at LB

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Just now, Smallen said:

if Howe keeps Lewis Hall in the team next season then we pretty much have Shaw’s replacement right there. He ended the season very strongly. Similar skillset to Shaw with Hall probably having significantly more potential on the ball.

Hopefully Colwill can get some game time as well. Don't think we're short of left backs at all but we do need these players to manage their careers well over the next couple of seasons.

[Rob1981]

19 minutes ago, arenaross said:

if you don't have the time to impose or train a squad into a cohesive system - which I accept can be tough to do at intl level - then the next best thing be would to use a system that the majority of the players are comfortable with.

We did this before this tournament though, and people still didn't like it.  When we stuck with a system and used the most appropriate players to fit within it... people just kicked off that a 'better' player wasn't getting in the side.

But this year we did the opposite, and it looked wrong from the off.  Finally picking all the best individual players based on club form... but then he ended up with a squad he didn't know how to get the best out of. 

Hilarious that people have been calling for Rashford because he fits the system, after spending a year saying that Rashford was out of form and should be dropped.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Just now, Rob1981 said:

We did this before this tournament though, and people still didn't like it.  When we stuck with a system and used the most appropriate players to fit within it... people just kicked off that a 'better' player wasn't getting in the side.

But this year we did the opposite, and it looked wrong from the off.  Finally picking all the best individual players based on club form... but then he ended up with a squad he didn't know how to get the best out of. 

Hilarious that people have been calling for Rashford because he fits the system, after spending a year saying that Rashford was out of form and should be dropped.

You seem to be saying that Southgate ended up doing what all the stupid people wanted which doesn't reflect well on him  

[Pukey]

35 minutes ago, metal_guitarist said:

Very few options until you get all the way down to U18/U17 level where you have Harry Amass who style-wise is a Luke Shaw clone and Bendito Mantato who is closer to Saka and will probably end up playing on the wing rather than full-back.

I don't even care if he's good, that's a fantastic name and should be picked for every tournament

[TalkSport]

Which would be fine if Foden was playing as an actual LW. It wasn’t just pick the names, it was how they were picked and played. That’s all on Southgate rather than crumbling to outside noise.

Nothing stopping it being an actual 4-3-3 and Foden quiet LW as it’s not his favourite position, dropped for someone. 

[Rob1981]

3 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

You seem to be saying that Southgate ended up doing what all the stupid people wanted which doesn't reflect well on him  

No, it doesn't reflect well on him at all

It has been a shambles this year.  I have been pretty critical all the way through tbf.  Although that hasn't stopped people imagining posts where I've sung Southgate's praises... so that they can continue to argue points I've never made.

[Barry Cartman]

Rob really going to shamelessly say Gareth did what we all wanted

 

 

[TalkSport]

Like we played it against France at World Cup ffs. 

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, Barry Cartman said:

Rob really going to shamelessly say Gareth did what we all wanted

I just want him to admit that Southgate is a League One level manager tactically so I can die happy.

[Rob1981]

Just now, Barry Cartman said:

Rob really going to shamelessly say Gareth did what we all wanted

He obviously picked the squad people were clamouring for.  Then didn't really know what to do with it.  But that's clearly on him, not on anybody else.

[eenie]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

No, it doesn't reflect well on him at all

It has been a shambles this year.  I have been pretty critical all the way through tbf.  Although that hasn't stopped people imagining posts where I've sung Southgate's praises... so that they can continue to argue points I've never made.

Do you think that Southgate did what he did because the public wanted it though? I don't for a second.

[TM]

2 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Rob really going to shamelessly say Gareth did what we all wanted

 

 

he picked the squad people wanted, remember the roars about no Henderson

just didn't know what to do with it in the end

[eenie]

I just don't think there's any way that Southgate picked a squad or an XI even though he didn't want to but the public were clamouring for it. That is just buuuuuuuuuullsh.t.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I don't understand what was going through his head but his approach in the last year or so has been so different to what worked so well from 2016 through to 2022.

[TalkSport]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I don't understand what was going through his head but his approach in the last year or so has been so different to what worked so well from 2016 through to 2022.

The only thing I can think (we won’t ever know till Southgate does an autobiography) for changing his approach, is he was so scared by not having Phillips, he felt he had to set side up with an extra body in the middle to help with control and defensive side, and that meant sacrificing one of the wings. Which was never going to be Saka, so it was the left.

[Barry Cartman]

3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

He obviously picked the squad people were clamouring for.  Then didn't really know what to do with it.  But that's clearly on him, not on anybody else.

Yes we all clamoured for a squad with 1 left back who hadn't kicked a ball for months and wasn't looking like being fit for the tournament 

The only player people didn't want in the squad was Henderson, no one was kicking up a fuss if Grealish/Rashford went ahead of Wharton or Bowen.

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I don't understand what was going through his head but his approach in the last year or so has been so different to what worked so well from 2016 through to 2022.

It's the typical case of a manager out of his depth being too scared to make major changes because he knows the odds of him making the right change are low.

Bad Nations League results made him question everything, but he never wanted to make big experiments, even in irrelevant games.

Then when he had absolutely nothing else to do because the team was really poor, he started making random changes like switching to back three with half the team not suited for the role and it went downhill, despite lucky wins.

All out attack idea was fine to get the equalizer, but that random bunch of players simply couldn't work against organized Spain for a longer period. But he never brought on another midfielder and Spain started creating changes again, eventually a goal had to happen.

[Rob1981]

2 minutes ago, eenie said:

Do you think that Southgate did what he did because the public wanted it though?

I think he wanted to be the guy that got the best out of Foden, Bellingham, Kane, Rice and Saka et al.  And then won the tournament playing brilliant football.

He isn't a good enough tactician to mould these players into a perfect system, especially when they don't get that much time to work together.

But he also abandoned the methods that made him successful in the past... because another 2-3 years into their club careers some of these players are much harder to leave out.

I don't think this is bowing to public pressure necessarily, it's him wanting to win the 'right' way and not being up to it.  But clearly it's what the public wanted as well for the most part.

[eenie]

6 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I think he wanted to be the guy that got the best out of Foden, Bellingham, Kane, Rice and Saka et al.  And then won the tournament playing brilliant football.

He isn't a good enough tactician to mould these players into a perfect system, especially when they don't get that much time to work together.

But he also abandoned the methods that made him successful in the past... because another 2-3 years into their club careers some of these players are much harder to leave out.

I don't think this is bowing to public pressure necessarily, it's him wanting to win the 'right' way and not being up to it.  But clearly it's what the public wanted as well for the most part.

Yeah, it's him, an experienced professional football manager, making some terrible decisions. Those just so happen to coincide with the wishes of Joe Bloggs down the Dog And Duck, except Joe isn't getting paid £5m a year to mismanage one of the most talented groups of players in international football  

[Barry Cartman]

Its not as if Bellingham, Foden, Saka, Rice etc have just sprung up in the last few years, he's been working with these players for 2 or 3 tournaments now. If he can't get the best out of them, why do we keep giving him new contracts 

[Rob1981]

2 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

He's been working with these players for 2 or 3 tournaments now. If he can't get the best out of them, why do we keep giving him new contracts 

Because it was working well until this summer.  It's not complicated.

[aggressive minor]

29 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

He obviously picked the squad people were clamouring for.  Then didn't really know what to do with it.  But that's clearly on him, not on anybody else.

Who on Earth wanted one unfit left back in a squad if 26!?

[oche balboa]

31 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

He obviously picked the squad people were clamouring for.  Then didn't really know what to do with it.  But that's clearly on him, not on anybody else.

No Grealish. 

[oche balboa]

11 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Because it was working well until this summer.  It's not complicated.

Yep relegation to the 2nd tier of the Nations League and losing to Iceland as well

[m_fenton]

On 06/06/2024 at 15:55, skybluedave said:

Southgate going proper un-Southgate like this summer. All the boo boys GONE

On 06/06/2024 at 15:56, arenaross said:

I think he's made the right calls overall tbh. 

On 06/06/2024 at 16:00, skybluedave said:

It's like if a new manager had come in and gone with this squad we'd all be loving it

On 06/06/2024 at 16:00, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Yeah this looks fine to me.

On 06/06/2024 at 16:14, Rob1981 said:

God, this is stressing me out.

3-4 years of being relentlessly positive even though nearly everybody else wanted Southgate sacked.

Now I'm worrying because we've lost our veteran CB to injury, and in midfield we have to chose between two schoolkids with only one cap each... and everyone else is buzzing

On 06/06/2024 at 16:50, Lucas said:

I just can't believe how true to life the thread title from the England thread has come to life - how I learned to love Gareth. Well done @Rob1981, definitely called it 

Drops Hendo, and now no Maguire. Grealish too. Just can't believe my eyes  

For all the criticism Gareth gets, he will make some bold choices when it calls for it. Just hope he doesn't try the subs before pens trick this time around. 

Very excited for the full squad announcement now 

On 06/06/2024 at 17:32, Darius1998 said:

Southgate going nuclear. Pretty amazing to watch. 

Great turnaround for Gomez as well, started the season as Liverpool's 4th choice CB, got a run at fullback due to injuries and now makes the England squad for the Euros due to his versatility.

On 06/06/2024 at 17:36, adhikapp said:

From dropping Henderson, Phillips, Rashford, Chilwell, Maddison, Grealish... All Gareth had to do was drop Dunk and he'd have every single England fan behind him I feel. It's very weird when Dunk was performing well post-pandemic, he called up Ben White instead for Euro 2020(1). Now that his performances fallen off, and hadn't impress in recent internationals, Dunk is suddenly undroppable.

If he wanted the 'experience' factor for the dressing room after missing Maguire, he probably should've called Bayern superstar Eric Dier instead. But better late than never to regain those lost caps for Dunk, I guess. Still think Branthwaite deserve the call up more if it's based on merit.

Delighted that Wharton, Eze, and Bowen managed to dodge the cut, showing that Southgate actually does value form when it matters. If this was Eriksson or Hodgson, they definitely would've gone for their big-club biases and include Jones, Maddison, and Grealish instead. We were also so deep with the Watkins v Toney debate, and it seems like they're both going instead. 

On 06/06/2024 at 17:48, Darren Moores Mum said:

Wow. Southgate going all in for his last hurrah.

Surprised Grealish didn't get the nod but he's a shadow of what he was.

On 06/06/2024 at 18:30, VP. said:

Southgate giving the fans what they want in his farewell tournament 👌

Can replacements still be called due to injuries or is that it now? As Genuinely ****ed if a defender pulls up in training (Luke Shaw).

Immediate reactions from on here to the squad announcement, for what its worth. Say what you like about it in hindsight, but it was definitely a squad that the fans (we) were calling for overall. That doesn't mean Southgate picked the squad because fans were calling for it - but it definitely shows that he had a shift in mindset away from the "unfashionable but bloody useful" Henderson types that had been the unpopular bedrock of his success before.

[themadsheep2001]

The fact that it wasnt working well is entirely on him. Bellingham had been playing CM, and then suddenly he had to play AM because thats what he had been doing at Madrid (for literally one season) as opposed simply pairing him up with Rice and leaving Foden at 10, leaving Saka at left wing and if you're not taking Rashford then playing Gordon. Throwing in TAA at centre mid simply because, despite having several better options

And on the Rashford debate, i dont think people were clamouring for him after demanding he be dropped. I think the few people who had been clamouring for him, like myself, had always argued he should have gone in the squad. 

[themadsheep2001]

38 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

I think he wanted to be the guy that got the best out of Foden, Bellingham, Kane, Rice and Saka et al.  And then won the tournament playing brilliant football.

He isn't a good enough tactician to mould these players into a perfect system, especially when they don't get that much time to work together.

But he also abandoned the methods that made him successful in the past... because another 2-3 years into their club careers some of these players are much harder to leave out.

I don't think this is bowing to public pressure necessarily, it's him wanting to win the 'right' way and not being up to it.  But clearly it's what the public wanted as well for the most part.

He's not good enough to mould them to any system, we didnt even have an good system let alone perfect one. And at no point did we look like playing football the "right" way for more than 5 minutes at a time. We barely played any football so there is no way it can be argued he wanted that. No international managers get that much time, yet so many other managers had much more coherent systems for their players than he did. 

[silentwars]

1 hour ago, Gary_Parker said:

Aside from Shaw and Chilwell, who is there at left back either pushing them or coming through? 

Chilwell and Reece James should be put on the 'nah, maybe just don't bother' pile given they're more brittle than RAAC built houses.

Keep an eye on Leif Davis - he was fantastic for Ipswich last season 

[Rob1981]

7 minutes ago, aggressive minor said:

Who on Earth wanted one unfit left back in a squad if 26!?

Yeah, the left back situation was weird.

But since 2022 people have wanted the likes of Maguire, Henderson, Phillips and Rashford dropped... in favour of players that were bang in form for their clubs.  So they are all dropped... great, right?  But it turns out when you aren't a brilliant tactician and you don't get that much time on the training ground... it's quite hard to magic all the better players into a winning team if they haven't got a couple of mainstays alongside them doing the donkey work.

[arenaross]

12 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

Immediate reactions from on here to the squad announcement, for what its worth. Say what you like about it in hindsight, but it was definitely a squad that the fans (we) were calling for overall. That doesn't mean Southgate picked the squad because fans were calling for it - but it definitely shows that he had a shift in mindset away from the "unfashionable but bloody useful" Henderson types that had been the unpopular bedrock of his success before.

I had no real issues with the squad tbh, that's why I thought we were going to get Sexy Garethball at last. I didn't expect him to pick that squad, then use it in the way he did. 

[Rob1981]

2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The fact that it wasnt working well is entirely on him.

Of course it's on him.

He's tried to win a different way, instead of sticking to the methods that got results in the past.  And it's backfired horribly.

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, arenaross said:

I had no real issues with the squad tbh, that's why I thought we were going to get Sexy Garethball at last. I didn't expect him to pick that squad, then use it in the way he did. 

He didnt need to change everything. It was literally, drop Henderson for Bellingham 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

2 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Yeah, the left back situation was weird.

But since 2022 people have wanted the likes of Maguire, Henderson, Phillips and Rashford dropped... in favour of players that were bang in form for their clubs.  So they are all dropped... great, right?  But it turns out when you aren't a brilliant tactician and you don't get that much time on the training ground... it's quite hard to magic all the better players into a winning team if they haven't got a couple of mainstays alongside them doing the donkey work.

Worth saying Guéhi was really good, had a huge area to defend given the way we were set up and never really looked exposed. Didn't miss Maguire at all imo.

Edited July 15 by Coulthard's Jaw

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Worth saying Guéhi was really good, had a huge area to defend given the way we were set up and never really looked exposed. Didn't miss Maguire at all imo.

Guehi was excellent. Bellingham absolutely could have filled in for Henderson and Phillips, he's literally been an all action CM his entire career. Rashford should have gone, but he still had Gordon, who he barely used anyway

[themadsheep2001]

7 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Of course it's on him.

He's tried to win a different way, instead of sticking to the methods that got results in the past.  And it's backfired horribly.

What was this different way? Because it just looked even more slow and cautious than before. 

[ReggaeBwoy]

You know when you have these pundits who blurt out nonsense for the sake of it, just bamboozles me. Carragher for instance saying Southgate should stay... why?

 Merson stating that Kane must start this game and that game. For instance stating he must start against Holland. and did jack all, all game, and then pundits stating he has to start final when he has been poor.

Southgate is out of his depth. England, with their talent should not be needing ET to beat Slovakia. Penalties to beat Switzerland. The awful performances we see in the group stage. He is out his depth. We should be seeing England doing to teams, what Spain have been doing. As good as Spain have been, not much of that outfield team apart from Rodri get into that England team. The performances have been awful. Picking the same players in the team who keep underperforming. How in the hell do the FA believe he is the man to carry this talented squad forward??

Seems he felt pressured into picking players based on form, without any idea on how to use them. Like I say, this is a dream job for most managers and there are much better options available than Southgate.

[Rob1981]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

What was this different way?  Because it just looked even more slow and cautious than before. 

He's tried to get Bellingham and Foden both playing a #10 role because they are both excelling there for their clubs. 

Instead of telling Bellingham to sit deeper and play Henderson's old role, which would have been better for the team.

You've literally said this yourself about 10 times.

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

He's tried to get Bellingham and Foden both playing a #10 role because they are both excelling there for their clubs. 

Instead of telling Bellingham to sit deeper and play Henderson's old role, which would have been better for the team.

You've literally said this yourself about 10 times.

That's not what he did initially though. He stuck a right back in centre mid instead, which was just baffling. It was like he just lurched from one idea to another, instead of a coherent way. 

[Craigus89]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I think weve still got a lot of up. Left back is the concern for me. No one can stay fit FFS

Yes, but look how quickly things can change. 2 years is a long time, 1 year ago 98% of fans had not even heard of Palmer, Mainoo et al. I'm confident there will be solutions available come WC26.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Craigus89 said:

Yes, but look how quickly things can change. 2 years is a long time, 1 year ago 98% of fans had not even heard of Palmer, Mainoo et al. I'm confident there will be solutions available come WC26.

Very true. Not seen huge amounts of Hall for example, but looks a talent 

[Divinity]

9 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

He's tried to get Bellingham and Foden both playing a #10 role because they are both excelling there for their clubs. 

Bellingham doesn't play as a 10. It was a desperate attempt to shoehorn him into something between his club role and his previous club role.

False 9 at Real, 8 at Dortmund.

[Rob1981]

2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

It was like he just lurched from one idea to another, instead of a coherent way. 

It was exactly like this   I don't know why you still think I'm arguing with you.

[Barry Cartman]

Bellingham isn't playing No.10 for Real, he's playing as a false 9, don't know how many times that's been said  

If we wanted to replicate his Real form that he's played for 1 season rather than play him alongside Rice where he's spent the majority of his career, he should have dropped Kane and played him there instead 

[The_jagster]

With the exception of LB, the squad wasn't the issue. Given how everyone has looked, I have no confidence whatsoever that an out of form Rashford would have had any benefit over the other options. He'd have probably stunk the left wing out even more.

 

[The_jagster]

Just now, Barry Cartman said:

Bellingham isn't playing No.10 for Real, he's playing as a false 9, don't know how many times that's been said  

If we wanted to replicate his Real form that he's played for 1 season rather than play him alongside Rice where he's spent the majority of his career, he should have dropped Kane and played him there instead 

I still think fundamentally people would complain if Bellingham was further back.

"Need him further forward to be most effective"

"Taken his game to a new level now he's playing in a more advanced role"

[TalkSport]

27 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

He's tried to get Bellingham and Foden both playing a #10 role because they are both excelling there for their clubs. 

Instead of telling Bellingham to sit deeper and play Henderson's old role, which would have been better for the team.

You've literally said this yourself about 10 times.

Bellingham hasn't been playing as a 10 for club though. Effectively been a striker for large part, so it's more playing Kane and Bellingham in that description.