Game 7: Serbia vs England from the Arena AufSchalke LIVE on BBC1 8pm

[skybluedave]

1 minute ago, Astafjevs said:

I don't agree that Palmer is levels above Foden. Or Gordon is above him. Foden is one of the best 11 players in the England squad.

But I do wonder at what point Southgate, or any other England coach, starts to question his place in the XI. He has had a string of pretty nothing performances for England. And it's not a small sample either. For whatever reason he just doesn't seem to do it in the international scene, and imo international football is about finding the players that do well for you and sticking with it.

Like Pickford, Maguire et al.

I think he's just to ingrained into Pep's style, as that's all he's known and you take him out of that he's not the same. 

I've been critical of him recently for the same reasons but what I saw today wasn't enough for me to drop him just yet

[bolton1987]

12 minutes ago, mrw072 said:

Gazza was a different level altogether.  One of a kind.  Bellingham is going to have a great career though,  He'll make a real name for himself soon, if he hasn't already.  Great goal tonight.

You'd back him to get a big move and maybe a Champions League after that performance 

[Constantine]

3 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Gudelj has no place in the team if you're already playing with three CBs.
Rather have Ilić or someone more mobile.
Samadržić not getting any minutes is also really questionable.
He's the only midfielder with enough dribbling and strength to constantly run at his marker and be a threat from around the area.

Samardzic, Ilic, Tadic in that Calhanoglu role and SMS behind two strikers is my ideal midfield setup. But that need more mobile defenders than we have.

Gudelj, I really don't like him and ideally I would never pick him but for some reason we're less of a mess in this Piksi's setup with him in the side. I've no idea why but it's true.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

3 minutes ago, Bootador said:

This is gonna be infuriating all tournament

 

3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Was very ****ing annoying

 

It's mad, Stones is brilliant at this stuff, Guéhi looks good on the ball as well, you have Rice who can take the ball. I think mixing it up is important but Pickford was a bit brainless for a lot of that second half.

[Heartwork]

Cesc's main critique of Foden was if he's that good he should be able to adapt his role to play out wide. If he's only able to perform properly through the middle, we have too much talent to try to shoehorn him in. He'd have to be Bellingham's understudy who comes on for Bellingham/if Bellingham drops back into the midfield and the central role is freed up.

[Smallen]

4 minutes ago, Bootador said:

This is gonna be infuriating all tournament

spot the Sean Dyche team goalkeeper 

[Bootador]

1 minute ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

 

It's mad, Stones is brilliant at this stuff, Guéhi looks good on the ball as well, you have Rice who can take the ball. I think mixing it up is important but Pickford was a bit brainless for a lot of that second half.

Yeah, I don't want to be too critical as I actually thought Pickford's kicking was excellent. i just think it's fundamentally the wrong thing to be doing as a "main tactic" and we will suffer for it against better teams.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

 

It's mad, Stones is brilliant at this stuff, Guéhi looks good on the ball as well, you have Rice who can take the ball. I think mixing it up is important but Pickford was a bit brainless for a lot of that second half.

Yep, didnt really need to do it. I guess he was worried because both striker were pressing but then split the CBs, Rice drops in, Walker and Tripper invert. Nothing this side hasnt done before. Pickford being odd there. 

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Bootador said:

Yeah, I don't want to be too critical as I actually thought Pickford's kicking was excellent. i just think it's fundamentally the wrong thing to be doing as a "main tactic" and we will suffer for it against better teams.

Agree. His long kicking was good. Just felt wrong

[themadsheep2001]

Tonight felt like it just needs series of little tweaks rather than any overhaul, but those tweaks will have big impacts. A fullback overlapping on the left so Foden can move into the channels, less long kicking, earlier subs 

[skybluedave]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Yep, didnt really need to do it. I guess he was worried because both striker were pressing but then split the CBs, Rice drops in, Walker and Tripper invert. Nothing this side hasnt done before. Pickford being odd there. 

I think team confidence had dropped so he resorted to playing it long. We were starting to not get very far when playing it out from back, and it was going back to Pickford repeatedly a lot. I reckon Pickford didn't fancy it

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, skybluedave said:

I think team confidence had dropped so he resorted to playing it long. We were starting to not get very far when playing it out from back, and it was going back to Pickford repeatedly a lot. I reckon Pickford didn't fancy it

Yeah thats a very fair argument 

[Heartwork]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Tonight felt like it just needs series of little tweaks rather than any overhaul, but those tweaks will have big impacts. A fullback overlapping on the left so Foden can move into the channels, less long kicking, earlier subs 

Wishful thinking with that last one

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I don't massively like Foden on the left but I dunno if it's just something that can be fixed with a bit of tweaking or not.

[Baptista_8]

If Pickford is going against Southgate's instructions (big if) he should be dropped anyway.

[The_jagster]

2 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

I think team confidence had dropped so he resorted to playing it long. We were starting to not get very far when playing it out from back, and it was going back to Pickford repeatedly a lot. I reckon Pickford didn't fancy it

Or possibly, was instructed to kick it long more

[Smallen]

No but seriously, Pickford plays in a Dyche team. I think it’s unreasonable to just expect him to transform out of something he’s coached to do for 99% of the season:

(a “launched” pass is a pass attempted over > 40 yards)

Edited June 16 by Smallen

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I don't massively like Foden on the left but I dunno if it's just something that can be fixed with a bit of tweaking or not.

He needs to demand the ball more, but he also needs to be given licence to drift off that flank. But i don't think you can do that with Trippier. 

[mrw072]

Just now, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I don't massively like Foden on the left but I dunno if it's just something that can be fixed with a bit of tweaking or not.

I thought Foden was largely anonymous tonight. Great a club level, but wasn't really involved.

 

[Bootador]

1 minute ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

I don't massively like Foden on the left but I dunno if it's just something that can be fixed with a bit of tweaking or not.

Most of the run in was played on the "left", but with Gvardiol playing very high up. I think Shaw would help immensely, but also felt a bit crowded centrally today, not quite tactically right... whether that can be tweaked by Southgate I dunno.

[Bootador]

3 minutes ago, Smallen said:

No but seriously, Pickford plays in a Dyche team. I think it’s unreasonable to just expect him to transform out of something he’s coached to do for 99% of the season:

When we're getting a free kick on the half way on the touchline someone should be telling him to **** off back in goal at the very least

[blueglobefootball123]

I think the first half was very strong, and England controlled the game.

Second half Serbia came out strong and pressed very well, and whilst having backs against the wall at times I think we limited them to very little. Obviously we need to grow into the tournament as against a France or Spain I’m sure we wouldn’t hold out so well

[skybluedave]

I still don't think Foden was that bad. Maybe the issue is alot of the stuff he did in the 2nd half helped us see out game 1-0 but didn't do much to help us win 2-0. If that makes sense

[Rebs]

Pickford being dropped, Foden being left out. I'm starting to think this is tabloid country. There is no other keeper close to Pickford in terms of England, not one, and while Foden didn't really do much for England tonight, leaving out the one player from the Prem who has been the most devastatingly destructive player in the league this year would be absolutely crazy. 

[Bootador]

Just now, Rebs said:

Pickford being dropped, Foden being left out. I'm starting to think this is tabloid country. There is no other keeper close to Pickford in terms of England, not one, and while Foden didn't really do much for England tonight, leaving out the one player from the Prem who has been the most devastatingly destructive player in the league this year would be absolutely crazy. 

Put Trent in goal where he can really dictate the game with his long balls. Might be a bit dodgy defensively, but it's never stopped him being played so far 

[themadsheep2001]

3 minutes ago, Bootador said:

Most of the run in was played on the "left", but with Gvardiol playing very high up. I think Shaw would help immensely, but also felt a bit crowded centrally today, not quite tactically right... whether that can be tweaked by Southgate I dunno.

Bellingham was drifting into the left channel as well as the right, if we get him drift into the right more as Saka holds width anyway, Foden drifts into the left from the flank with Shaw pushing up the left flank. The key is Shaw though (because hes the only attacking left back)

[Haguey]

I am biased but much prefer Rambo, but Pickford has rarely let England down and has been good in clutch moments so very happy for him to continue. There isn't a strong argument for a replacement (which is a worry for a few tournaments down the line but worry about that then)

[mrw072]

Just now, Rebs said:

Pickford being dropped, Foden being left out. I'm starting to think this is tabloid country. There is no other keeper close to Pickford in terms of England, not one, and while Foden didn't really do much for England tonight, leaving out the one player from the Prem who has been the most devastatingly destructive player in the league this year would be absolutely crazy. 

I think this is where Southgate needs his managerial skills. I agree Foden is the best player we've got. But he needs to be able to show it.

[GunmaN1905]

If we look at today's lineup, Bellingham is the only player who wants to play direct football.
Others don't. They're all about build-up, position changes, keeping the ball and waiting for the opposition to get lost in their rotations.
But Southgate has no mechanisms for it and it looks pathetic.

Kane's wingers in Bayern are runners, much like Sterling and Rashford were.
Foden and Saka aren't. But Kane still plays like they're Rashford and Sterling.
Again, that's on Southgate.

Midfield doesn't have enough quality to recycle possession other than dull passing around that doesn't break defenses.

Either Southgate changes his approach or changes some of the players.
Foden is a few tiers above Gordon, but if he's reduced to this role, then just put Gordon in.

[Haguey]

2 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

Midfield doesn't have enough quality to recycle possession other than dull passing around that doesn't break defenses.

Think that's harsh, neither of them are Pirlo, but they're both pretty good at keeping the ball and passing it around. Rice gets way more credit for his defending and positioning (rightly) but he's no mug with the ball either

[skybluedave]

6 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Bellingham was drifting into the left channel as well as the right, if we get him drift into the right more as Saka holds width anyway, Foden drifts into the left from the flank with Shaw pushing up the left flank. The key is Shaw though (because hes the only attacking left back)

Yeah agree. We do need Shaw badly. You could see blueprint for the side in the first 25 mins. But it badly needed a left footer. 

Walker tucking in, Guehi moving to left. Trent floating wide almost like a false full back from midfield. Saka wide on right. Left back super high (and with Shaw he would actually attack byline). Foden floating inside and Bellingham just running things like a boss. I actually think that can produce results, but we need Shaw to balance it all out

[Haguey]

Feel like most games are going to be a compromise setup this tournament for us simply because Shaw will probably end up getting limited game time so we'll have to continue with square pegs in round holes at left back, with the knock on issues. Real shame our two very good left backs are perma crocks and no one else comes close really. I'd still have taken another actual left back though but the Waistcoat knows best.

[Astafjevs]

Shaw hasn't played a game in 4 months. If some of you thought Stones looked off the pace and leggy, playing in the relatively low load position of central defence, what on earth do you think Shaw will look like at fullback.

It's a sign of how desperate it is at leftback that he's even been picked.

[Rebs]

If we're relying on Shaw to be the difference then we certainly aren't favourites. 

[Bootador]

3 minutes ago, Haguey said:

Feel like most games are going to be a compromise setup this tournament for us simply because Shaw will probably end up getting limited game time so we'll have to continue with square pegs in round holes at left back, with the knock on issues. Real shame our two very good left backs are perma crocks and no one else comes close really. I'd still have taken another actual left back though but the Waistcoat knows best.

Said it at the time, massive oversight taking Gordon, Bowen, Toney, Palmer & Watkins... but only 1 proper left back.

[aggressive minor]

Was Chillwell fit? Madness to not take him if not 

[GunmaN1905]

10 minutes ago, Haguey said:

Think that's harsh, neither of them are Pirlo, but they're both pretty good at keeping the ball and passing it around. Rice gets way more credit for his defending and positioning (rightly) but he's no mug with the ball either

He's no mug with the ball, but remember that clip from your last friendly against Iceland when he's got a somewhat clear look to put Foden through on goal and doesn't make the pass, instead just recycles it around. Someone in midfield needs to be that player. In this 433/4231 formation.

Trent should be, but playing a deep midfielder in possession is arguably the most difficult thing alongside defending as a fullback.
Very few players had the talent on top level to be two steps ahead of the game. To already be in position to make the perfect follow up pass before receiving the ball.
Pirlo wasn't about "here comes the ball, I'll turn around, have a look around and then pull of a wonder pass". Which you can absolutely do as a wingback.
It's about knowing you're making that wonder pass before you even get the ball. But that takes a lot of time and experience. And team cohesion, knowing what everyone does.
Pirlo, Xavi, Kroos and Modrić all started as attacking midfielders and it took many years for them to develop into that deep role.

If you ask me, it's beyond unfair on TAA to put him in there just because Klopp tried it a few times on club level.

The left-back issue is worse than it looks.
Can't even play with three at the back, no left-footed CBs.
Trippier doesn't look good.

I've never seen him on the left, but since Walker doesn't attack much anyway, would it be out of question to put him on the left as the defensive full-back and have TAA in his best role?
If it's not an option, then TAA has to sit on the bench, he's not a midfielder right now.

What's the point of not having a single healthy left-footed defender?
Why did he take both Mainoo and Wharton if his intention was to play TAA in midfield?
Or these nine forwards for three positions if Bellingham has two midfielders next to him.

Such mismanagement.

[enigmatic]

22 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

I don't agree that Palmer is levels above Foden. Or Gordon is above him. Foden is one of the best 11 players in the England squad.

But I do wonder at what point Southgate, or any other England coach, starts to question his place in the XI. He has had a string of pretty nothing performances for England. And it's not a small sample either. For whatever reason he just doesn't seem to do it in the international scene, and imo international football is about finding the players that do well for you and sticking with it.

Like Pickford, Maguire et al.

tbf, Sterling was **** for the vast majority of his first 40 international games before he was brilliant for most of the next 40, and Foden's well on course to achieve that. Don't see why you wouldn't start him looking at the current squad, just don't particularly see the point in keeping him on when you're 1-0 up in a group stage game, he's not playing well and you could do with someone that would disrupt the opposition or run in behind more

5 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

I still don't think Foden was that bad. Maybe the issue is alot of the stuff he did in the 2nd half helped us see out game 1-0 but didn't do much to help us win 2-0. If that makes sense

I see what you mean in that he tracked back more than he usually gets credit for (top John Smith hoof from his penalty area at one point!) and his backward passes were a lot better than his attacking work. But he started the game with a miscontrol and miskicked shot in great attacking positions that were more my level than genius level and his attacking output actually dropped from that. No point in scapegoating him for England being pretty underwhelming and he definitely touched the ball more than Kane, but he really wasn't very good.

 

Kind of enjoying the irony of everyone criticising Boring Gareth for sticking with the elite flair player rather than bringing on Gordon because he works harder and offers more of a physical presence and can run channels   (but yeah, I'd definitely have brought Gordon on around the 55 minute mark...)

[Rebs]

Tripper at left back is better than Chilwell. Who else would you have taken instead? Not having Shaw wasn't the issue tonight. Serbia were always going to come back into the game at 1 nil, any team would. 

[Haguey]

2 minutes ago, aggressive minor said:

Was Chillwell fit? Madness to not take him if not 

Spent most of the year injured and is again now I think, he's the other permacrock

I guess the next two in line are Dan Burn and the Palace lad  

Rico Henry a good player but yet another player who spent the year injured

[Haguey]

2 minutes ago, Rebs said:

Tripper at left back is better than Chilwell.

Not having this  Chilwell is excellent but is rarely fit

[Smallen]

if the season had gone on a couple of months longer Lewis Hall might’ve been in with a shout. He was triffic when Eddie finally had to give him a run in the team.

[enigmatic]

1 minute ago, Rebs said:

Tripper at left back is better than Chilwell. Who else would you have taken instead? Not having Shaw wasn't the issue tonight. Serbia were always going to come back into the game at 1 nil, any team would. 

Was actually happy with Trippier's second half simply because we didn't do much going forward anyway or need to, and Serbia got absolutely zero joy out of his flank so he nailed the defensive bit, but a mid level Championship left back offers more going forward than him on his wrong side, never mind Chilwell. He basically loses all his crossing and passing ability, and you're left with someone that barely crosses the halfway line, won't cross the ball, doesn't have much range of passing and can't dribble or move quickly either.

[Rebs]

I think the point I was aiming at is that I don't think if Shaw would've been in instead of Trippier would've resulted in us being any better than what we were.

[PaulHartman71]

Mad thing is Grealish probably looks better than Foden on the left in Southgate's system. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

4 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Mad thing is Grealish probably looks better than Foden on the left in Southgate's system. 

Mason Mount is a huge loss btw.

[The Golden boy]

Surprised we didn't take more of a look at Gomez at LB in the friendlies. Played there a good number of times for Liverpool this season.

[Baptista_8]

1 hour ago, Rebs said:

Pickford being dropped, Foden being left out. I'm starting to think this is tabloid country. There is no other keeper close to Pickford in terms of England, not one, and while Foden didn't really do much for England tonight, leaving out the one player from the Prem who has been the most devastatingly destructive player in the league this year would be absolutely crazy. 

Why would it be? When has he ever been close to 'devastatingly destructive' for England? Sticking with players in the hope they'll do something rather than dropping them when they haven't turned up/been effective for months (years?) is much more crazy and will end up costing us.

Edited June 16 by Baptista_8

[Baptista_8]

41 minutes ago, Rebs said:

Tripper at left back is better than Chilwell.

No chance. Chilwell is great going forward, very composed.

[Divinity]

15 pages for probably the most dull game in decades, well done showing forum is still alive.