FM 25 DEVELOPMENT UPDATE

[Boycott]

7 minutes ago, jimbo22 said:

This is an issue, and it should be for everyone and its becoming common in gaming in general. People that pay full price for a game arent your (not you, the company) beta testers.

I don't disagree on the general point of gaming. But I think FM is in a tricky spot with it being a yearly release and their admission that time in between games is partially devoted to future releases down the line. So while I don't doubt their work towards FM25 was 100% in effort, by their admission their devotion of time + resources wasn't 100%. As they are working on FM26 too. Perhaps they are looking too far ahead and leaving the short term future undercooked. 

Zealand once suggested this model may be better if FM ceased being a yearly edition to purchase and instead like games where you have a subscription model for updates as and when they come. It got a lot of pushback.

[forameuss]

3 minutes ago, DaveMUFC said:

Also predicting that this year won't have the 2 week early access for pre ordering, as it sounds like the game isn't in any sort of release state yet and they'll probably be working till the last day on this. 

 

They're causing issues for themselves though, as if there is indeed no beta, people won't pre order, and the later they release it, the more likely people will just wait for the new year sales to buy. 

Know what would have been a nice little PR win in that case?  Say the release is definitely delayed, but a proper beta would release at the usual time, with the heavy proviso that it is a product needing tested, rather than just a chance to get the game early.

[Platinum]

I'm one of the few people who actually did look at weight as it helped me form a picture of what the player might look like in real life (e.g. did they look more like Havertz with a slight frame or Rooney with a stocky frame), so theres slight disappointment its going. However I do understand the decision to remove it. I do think a workaround could have been to have an average value

Edited September 4 by Platinum

[ForTheLoveOfTheGame]

2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

You and everyone else. 

Wrong.

Let’s get rid of height too then. 

[jimbo22]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

You and everyone else. 

The weight thing shouldnt be an issue at all. If it had no real bearing on the game then there is no real reason for it to be in. I dont think ive ever signed someone and even cared what their weight was. Completely removing international management should be a much bigger topic of discussion. 

[Lord Rowell]

24 minutes ago, mackem10 said:

Couldnt disagree more Gary.

 

I find it interesting, it's an aspect of interest removed from the game, that doesn't appear to be a good decision, at least not for me.

 

Also, I'm not entirely clear on their reasoning for doing so.

Well at least someone got the Lord Rowell reference right
On the actual issue, I would think online misogyny / trolling, weaponising women's weight against them, might be a significant risk and problem.

[CamAshworth]

Putting the removal of yet more modes and features aside. I am absolutely gobsmacked we have still not seen a single in game screenshot or a look at the new graphics in this update.

[forameuss]

3 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Right. I have no idea about unity - they can't just take the UI and graphics from unity and copy/paste the fm24 ME though? They'll have to rework it to at least some degree because of the change?

Could be an opportunity to change things up a bit.

I don't know Unity well either, but the bolded part I imagine isn't quite as simple as that.  All the ME is is a big calculator that receives inputs and tells the front-end what to show.  That front-end can be in anything, you just need to build to accept whatever outputs you're getting.  I imagine they could have just plugged the current ME in and worked the new front-end to accept that.  But that's obviously not going to be the optimal.  The ME is old and creaking, and this is a unique opportunity to take things back to the drawing board and see what improvements they can make.  In that case, yeah there'll probably be significant changes.

Of course, since we won't have a window into that, it won't stop people from seeing placebos everywhere and proclaiming that nothing/everything has changed.

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, ForTheLoveOfTheGame said:

Wrong.

Let’s get rid of height too then. 

Well no, given that height is actually quite important. 

 

[CoffeeKittyGrey]

1 minute ago, BohsJohnny said:

International football is a huge part of women's football so removing it when you're introducing that to your game seems very strange.

An excellent point. 

[mp_87]

- Entire first part of that down to the 'Revising Our Timelines' section should have been scrapped, all of that e-sports stuff is just irrelevant waffle.

- It's been challenging. It's been tricky. I promise you the team is doing an incredible job.... But the game is delayed. Sounds like they're scrambling a bit.

- Oh and international management has to go too, as we divert resources. Definitely scrambling a bit. Uh oh. (this could be a benefit in the long run, but the pressure is on to sort international management now, no mistake about it, now it's been given a hiatus).

- Then there is more waffle about Miles working really hard. The hints that they're scrambling now scream that they're starting to panic...

- RE: Weight. Probably could have been predicted that would go, given it is a more sensitive topic when applied to women. The justification is pretty funny though - Newsflash: Professional athletes weight fluctuates day by day! If it ultimately does nothing though and is a pointless stat, is no loss whatsoever. Really it was only good for judging SI on their attention to detail, seeing if for instance they gave you a 5'2 16 stone NewGen.

 

Ultimately the main words to take from that are it’s been trickier than we originally anticipated. Sounds like a mad rush and a lot of headaches at SI Towers as they get a game together. Probably sensible this year above all others to try before you buy......

[fat mole]

3 hours ago, Harper said:

My understanding is (and could be outdated or just entirely wrong) that height doesn't actually matter, if a 5'9 and 6'3 player both have a 14 Jumping Height attribute, they both have the same apex when jumping. But height does correlate with height in that taller players more frequently have higher JH attribute. And weight has correlated with strength (heavier players more commonly have higher strength).

Yes, that's long been the accepted wisdom. It would matter in the real world in a few ways even if the top of two player's heads reached the same apex when jumping at maximum effort but I don't think the game is anywhere near hyper-realistic enough to reflect that, nor should it be. Expecting it to be would be demanding way too much, but I can think of these reasons why in real football that height, even with the same jumping reach apex would come into play:

The taller player would have leverage when competing for a header from a static start. They'd have some advantage in terms of putting hands on the shorter player's shoulders more easily than the shorter player could do it to them as long as they all stay within the laws of the game.

The shorter player will be airborne for longer so would need to take off sooner to reach the same ball. This gives the taller player a split second advantage in judging exactly where the ball is going/how high it is etc. and they should be able to time their jump more easily.

Football players don't need to jump to their maximum apex for every header. If the top of a 6'6" player's head could reach a ball 8'6" in the air and so could a player who is 6'0" they've both got the same jumping reach. The tall guy's max jump is 24 inches if measuring how far off the ground his feet are, the shorter guy's feet are 30 inches from the ground. For balls that are only 8'0" in the air the taller player is jumping to 75% of their maximum jump (feet 18" of their maximum 24" from the ground), the shorter one 80% of their's (feet 24" of their max 30"). This is less physical effort for the taller player so slightly easier for them. It helps them conserve tiny amounts of energy and is also easier to do when tired.

Edited September 4 by fat mole

[jimbo22]

3 minutes ago, Boycott said:

I don't disagree on the general point of gaming. But I think FM is in a tricky spot with it being a yearly release and their admission that time in between games is partially devoted to future releases down the line. So while I don't doubt their work towards FM25 was 100% in effort, by their admission their devotion of time + resources wasn't 100%. As they are working on FM26 too. Perhaps they are looking too far ahead and leaving the short term future undercooked. 

Zealand once suggested this model may be better if FM ceased being a yearly edition to purchase and instead like games where you have a subscription model for updates as and when they come. It got a lot of pushback.

Or, like most companies the world over are probably not employing enough people to do what they are currently working on and it causes people to be spread too thin but thats another topic altogether. 

Yeah, my time with FM is limited as it is with age and other commitments but it becomes a sub model for updates then id be done completely and Id happily walk away at that point. Im glad it got pushback. 

[Lord Rowell]

Just now, Dagenham_Dave said:

Well no, given that height is actually quite important. 

 

In terms of direct impact on the ME, it makes no difference. Only indirectly to Jumping reach.
But of course, height doesn't fluctuate up and down, so no reason to remove it

[HUNT3R]

6 minutes ago, BohsJohnny said:

International football is a huge part of women's football so removing it when you're introducing that to your game seems very strange. I think I'll be skipping this version unless they pull some amazing improvements out of nowhere to other parts of the game. I don't see that happening though. 

International football hasn't been removed. Even if it was, it would affect the men's game just as much.

International management is what's been removed, according to the blog.

[Costav]

3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Well no, given that height is actually quite important. 

Apparently not. Jump reaching is whats count when contenting the ball in the air.

Edited September 4 by Costav

[ForTheLoveOfTheGame]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Well no, given that height is actually quite important. 

 

So is weight. 

We also have a brand new graphics engine. If that graphic engine cannot show us the difference from one extreme to another then it’s quite worrying. Will it show us the difference between Brian Brobbey and Alexander Isak? It should do. Weight and player types are important. 

[tezcatlipoca665]

Just now, Costav said:

Apparently not. Jump reaching is whats count when contenting the ball in the air.

Height is reflected in the 3D match engine.

[theHDTreatment]

1 hour ago, StevehFC said:

As someone who always plays a international save as Scotland on every addition of FM. I'm really disappointed with SI removing international management. 

On the plus side, the development time that could have been spent on international football has been diverted to women’s football so you have a whole other high quality game mode to enjoy!

[Costav]

2 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

height doesn't fluctuate up and down, so no reason to remove i

Well, for very young players it does...(or, at least, it increases).

[bosque]

The next update will state that FM25 will be released in 2025, as the tittle of the game suggests 

Edited September 4 by bosque

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Costav said:

Apparently not. Jump reaching is whats count when contenting the ball in the air.

It does determine whether a player would even need to jump for the ball though.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, ForTheLoveOfTheGame said:

So is weight. 

We also have a brand new graphics engine. If that graphic engine cannot show us the difference from one extreme to another then it’s quite worrying. Will it show us the difference between Brian Brobbey and Alexander Isak? It should do. Weight and player types are important. 

Weight isn't going away, it's just not going to be a visible figure to the user. Absolutely no-one will miss it. 

But fill your boots finding the hundreds of threads on here about players weight statistics. If the last few pages are anything to go by, there will be countless posts about its importance...

[Aim_Less]

So SI turned into EA now removing features to latter present has marketing gimmicks a few years later, despicable.

And what's with the nonsense with weight? Some DEI garbage?.

This is why competition is needed now we are getting a worse product for the same or more money.

( No internacional management, Touchline shouts, Social Media, Data Chalkboard )

Beyond disappointed with direction this company is going . FM was once a happy time for me for many years something to look forward but for a few years we get minimum effort releases and now a fully botched product .

Despicable 

Edited September 4 by Aim_Less

[ScotchWhisky]

I'm sure this will be merged in the thread so no one sees it, but what a disappointing update.  I tried international managing simultaneously with my team once and didn't like it.  But it amazes me features are being stripped, but at least we have women's football!  The best part is though...  (Paraphrased) "Since women's weights fluctuate more than men, we just hid them all!"  (Wouldn't want to offend someone, I guess)  So what percent of saves play women's football anyways?  Other than the initial surge of "lemme give this a try...  Ok, boooring!"

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, Aim_Less said:

and now a fully botched product .

That's quite the take on a product that's still a couple of months away from release. 

[davehanson]

So reading that blog - again Im not up with coding etc: It will continue to exist in FM25, FM25 Console and FM25 Touch as part of the wider simulation of world football, it just won’t be playable. 

 

So they have to program it all, make sure that managers exist, players get called up, tournaments get played etc, caps and goals get awarded. So isn't it then just a case of 'flicking a switch' to make the nations playable? 

[mackem10]

2 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Lol, why?

 

I like seeing the personal details of the players, not only do I find it interesting, it also offers more world-building, if that is the correct phrase.

[GIMN]

5 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Weight isn't going away, it's just not going to be a visible figure to the user. Absolutely no-one will miss it. 

But fill your boots finding the hundreds of threads on here about players weight statistics. If the last few pages are anything to go by, there will be countless posts about its importance...

I went back 3 months and couldn't find a single instance of weight being mentioned in relation to players in FM.  But apparently now it is the most important thing of all time 

[Aim_Less]

Probably woke nonsense that DEI investment fund must get it's pound of flesh 

ops replying to @ScotchWhisky

Edited September 4 by Aim_Less

[El Payaso]

Luckily I don't see anything worrying so far in terms of features being removed. The last time I did international management was in FM 2015 where I managed Spain for two matches during my Real Oviedo save. As managing matches is probably the least likeable part of the game for me, international management really give anything extra to me as tactical tweaking is not a thing anymore on FM. 

Still eagerly waiting for the big announcement at the end of the month, as well as the new version of the game. 

Ps. Fix set pieces and add a bit better balance on how different style of plays work and you have my vote. 

[mackem10]

16 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Well at least someone got the Lord Rowell reference right
On the actual issue, I would think online misogyny / trolling, weaponising women's weight against them, might be a significant risk and problem.

 

If that is indeed the reasoning, as sad as it sounds, would it not be more appropriate to remove it from the Women's game?

[forameuss]

Like the Ark of the Covenant, I can't quite look away.

So let's take both of the current announcements and strip out the fluff to see exactly what has been said.

June

• We're going to be more transparent
• We have a new logo and branding
• Moving to Unity has been really challenging
• We're cutting a lot of things because not enough people are using them
• Here's an idea of what the screens might look like
• Here's an idea on the dates (lol)

September

• FIFAe was great, wasn't it lads?
• Moving to Unity has been really challenging
• Game's delayed, soz
• International management is gone
• I'm focused on the game, so all work trips cancelled
• I'm also cancelling a personal holiday
• We're removing one attribute from the game

Now out of those, how many are actually positive changes that instil confidence in a product they actually want us to pay for?  Setting them out, I don't think there's any.  

I guess in name, these are development updates.  They're not here to essentially reveal FM25, they've been pretty clear about that.  But given the tone is centred around that product, it's a really bold decision to spend two updates now with no real positives added to sweeten the negatives.  And ironically, the reason we're getting these is because people moaned about transparency. In previous years we'd probably have had largely silence, then got the FM25 reveal, where you could set the undoubted negatives alongside the things you are going to get.  All we've been told is what we're not getting, and that things are hard.  

[ForTheLoveOfTheGame]

8 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Weight isn't going away, it's just not going to be a visible figure to the user. Absolutely no-one will miss it. 

But fill your boots finding the hundreds of threads on here about players weight statistics. If the last few pages are anything to go by, there will be countless posts about its importance...

Sorry, but no. Removing a fundamental part of a managers judgement when signing players is not a good thing. At least for those who like immersion/realism. 

This Reddit headline pretty much sums it up. It all exists in the background…but no one is allowed to see it? If it exists then show it in game because it’s obviously of some value…otherwise the category would not exist at all.

[DMC-12]

Its not a great update. More things being removed from the game, and Miles cancelling everything doesn't suggest its all going well in the background. 

International management isn't going to be a headline feature for FM26, as its been part of the game since the Championship Manager days. It hasn't worked properly in years (which is probably why the percentage of players doing it is so low, rather than due to a lack of interest), but its been in the game. 

I'm getting CM4 vibes from FM25 now. A huge step forwards that ultimately didn't work until the next annual release. 

[Nick_CB]

 FM 25 will be a complete catastrophe 

[davehanson]

6 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

That's quite the take on a product that's still a couple of months away from release. 

Its the only 'take' that can be made at the moment since the only updates we have had is features they have removed, release date (to be clear I don't care that they release later) moving back, no actual screenshots of the product - let alone any gameplay videos and a studio director in effect cancelling all public and personal engagements.

What other 'take' can be taken other than the development isn't going well?

[K94]

What honestly baffles me a bit is the inconsistency between different parts of the same announcement.

Only 5.6% of players play as NT managers, so we're taking that out. On it's own this would be fair enough, at least for me personally, since it's been undoubtedly in need of a revamp for a long time now, so I can understand the idea of not wanting to put something in the game if you're not pleased with how it looks.

But in the very next next paragraph... "We've been laser-focused on introducing Women's Football to FM in the most authentic way possible." Seriously?

I understand why as a company SI probably have to go down this path, but I find it hard to believe that the majority of FM players would prefer a game with Women's Football in it rather than a fixed International Management system. Absolutely no disrespect to Women's Football here, but these two statements in the same announcement are a bit of a joke.

Edited September 4 by K94

[HUNT3R]

2 minutes ago, ForTheLoveOfTheGame said:

Sorry, but no. Removing a fundamental part of a managers judgement when signing players is not a good thing. At least for those who like immersion/realism. 

This Reddit headline pretty much sums it up. It all exists in the background…but no one is allowed to see it? If it exists then show it in game because it’s obviously of some value…otherwise the category would not exist at all.

You can tell Crouch from Lukaku easily by looking at the other physical attributes.

[Aim_Less]

8 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

That's quite the take on a product that's still a couple of months away from release. 

 

So what do you call removing  internacional management, Touchline shouts, Social Media, Data Chalkboard?

And probably lot more that's not announced 

[theHDTreatment]

12 minutes ago, ScotchWhisky said:

So what percent of saves play women's football anyways?

I’m guessing less than 5.6%…

[theHDTreatment]

12 minutes ago, ScotchWhisky said:

So what percent of saves play women's football anyways?

I’m guessing less than 5.6%…

[GIMN]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

You can tell Crouch from Lukaku easily by looking at the other physical attributes.

20 strength, 20 balance Peter Crouch would be terrifying

[tezcatlipoca665]

I hope there's a 3D match engine in FM25. imo that'd be the most normal way to see how a player is physically built instead of closing my eyes and trying to imagine just how broad my player's shoulders are.

[Daniel Evensen]

50 minutes ago, RedExpress said:

Getting the small violins out for Miles cancelling his holiday to the USA. Extremely unprofessional and childish to even include a point like that.

 

No international football is game breaking. Fans have wanted it updated not removed from the game. Such a negative two updates has hardly wetted the appetite.

Agree with you on both points.

Miles needs to hire somebody to write these updates for him.  He can't stop himself from sticking his foot in his mouth.

We've been clamoring for an update to international management for years now.  It's ridiculous that they've done absolutely nothing, and now suddenly claim to not have enough time to fix it.

[K94]

1 minuto fa, HUNT3R ha scritto:

You can tell Crouch from Lukaku easily by looking at the other physical attributes.

But is all that really a good reason for me not to be able to know their weight? Honestly it's not this insane of a request. If so, why was it introduced in the game in the first place? I feel like the answer is simply: because it makes a lot of sense.

[Craigus89]

4 minutes ago, forameuss said:

Like the Ark of the Covenant, I can't quite look away.

So let's take both of the current announcements and strip out the fluff to see exactly what has been said.

June

• We're going to be more transparent
• We have a new logo and branding
• Moving to Unity has been really challenging
• We're cutting a lot of things because not enough people are using them
• Here's an idea of what the screens might look like
• Here's an idea on the dates (lol)

September

• FIFAe was great, wasn't it lads?
• Moving to Unity has been really challenging
• Game's delayed, soz
• International management is gone
• I'm focused on the game, so all work trips cancelled
• I'm also cancelling a personal holiday
• We're removing one attribute from the game

Now out of those, how many are actually positive changes that instil confidence in a product they actually want us to pay for?  Setting them out, I don't think there's any.  

I guess in name, these are development updates.  They're not here to essentially reveal FM25, they've been pretty clear about that.  But given the tone is centred around that product, it's a really bold decision to spend two updates now with no real positives added to sweeten the negatives.  And ironically, the reason we're getting these is because people moaned about transparency. In previous years we'd probably have had largely silence, then got the FM25 reveal, where you could set the undoubted negatives alongside the things you are going to get.  All we've been told is what we're not getting, and that things are hard.  

Indeed. It is a super weird tone for a development update that could be hyping a new release for a game that is beloved in the community. 

It should be called the "FM25 "Don't get your hopes up lads" update".

[forameuss]

 

1 minute ago, Aim_Less said:

 

So what do you call removing  internacional management, Touchline shouts, Social Media, Data Chalkboard?

And probably lot more that's not announced 

Certainly not "despicable" or whatever hyperbolic phrase you want to use.  I'm disappointed international management is gone, and couldn't bring myself to be even slightly bothered about the rest.  And even if I was, I don't think it would bring me to have a tantrum about a product you don't have to buy and can probably form an individual opinion on with a free demo on release.  But maybe that's just me.

[YonFarCountry]

It's strange that FM 24 was originally the transitional, half-baked game, but FM 25 would be *the* Football Manager game. 

Now it appears that FM25 is going to be another transitional, half-baked effort. Maybe FM 26 will be *the* Football Manager game?

[mackem10]

3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You can tell Crouch from Lukaku easily by looking at the other physical attributes.

Sounds like we could do away with height then, given we can garner enough from jumping reach.