FM 25 DEVELOPMENT UPDATE

[davehanson]

1 minute ago, TopToffee said:

In the past 2 pages about 10 people have felt the need to inform everyone they don’t care about women’s football.

 

2 have said they don’t care about international management being removed. Well 1.5 really - one just said they’re comfortable with it being removed if it can’t be implemented properly in time.

There are 3 on this page alone, so not going any further with you on this, there is no point as the blinkers are on. Have fun.

[TopToffee]

7 minutes ago, jimbo22 said:

No need to think a forum about a game and people talking about it is telling the world. Rather silly assessment to be honest.

I can see why you, specifically, would think that.

[Lord Rowell]

1 minute ago, TopToffee said:

In the past 2 pages about 10 people have felt the need to inform everyone they don’t care about women’s football.

 

2 have said they don’t care about international management being removed. Well 1.5 really - one just said they’re comfortable with it being removed if it can’t be implemented properly in time.

Not only that, but many throughout feel the need to inform everyone that the vast majority don't care about it, won't play it and so on.
Obviously these people have absolute knowledge... perhaps they could share the winning lottery numbers for the weekend?

[TopToffee]

Just now, davehanson said:

There are 3 on this page alone, so not going any further with you on this, there is no point as the blinkers are on. Have fun.

When you get near 10, let me know.

[kiwityke1983]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

Well, I personally wouldn't be bothered if it was gone, but I'm not going to insist on it. If someone likes it, then let them enjoy it. Same with women's football imo.

My view on women's football is exactly the same. It's not for me, I'll probably rarely load it up but I'm all for more choice.

FM24 was the first time I've played in the MLS in absolutely donkeys years and I genuinely had to reload about 8 times the first registration of players I had and read a bunch of online guides to even get my head round it and be able to register a squad.

It's really not well explained and the AI also does an awful job of registering squads etc.

If they are looking at removing things that don't work then the MLS would be a fair shout IMO.

 

[Dagenham_Dave]

I'm one of those who will never play women's football in the game, but I have no objection to it being there. 

In hindsight though, I wonder if SI are now regretting the decision to implement it this year at the same time as the single biggest overhaul to the game in nearly 20 years. This might have been a game mode that would have been better suited to going into the next game when international football will (presumably) return, given that's arguably where most of the user base who will play the women's game will focus on. 

[TopToffee]

Just now, Lord Rowell said:

Not only that, but many throughout feel the need to inform everyone that the vast majority don't care about it, won't play it and so on.
Obviously these people have absolute knowledge... perhaps they could share the winning lottery numbers for the weekend?

Oooh yes please!!

[sc91]

Just now, XaW said:

If they reimplement it as is, then I agree. If they spend the time revamping it into something that works a lot better than it does right now, then I'm all for it. I had a go on international management in FM24 and it's really not worth to play in its current state imo.

Yeah, I do agree, though I will note that this is a feature that has been a request/hope to be updated for years, so if it's with the intent that it taken to come back better, then fine, even then though, at least leave the limp corpse that it currently is in, rather than a removal.

Might just be me, a football manager sim without international management feels so immersion breaking. 

[RandomGuy.]

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

I had a go on international management in FM24 and it's really not worth to play in its current state imo.

I enjoyed it, particularly when you're a few years in and can mix it with a club job where you've good youngsters breaking through.

I just don't understand how it couldn't be included, even in a basic state, when literally everything needed for it to be used at club level. I take it they are having International teams in it, just permanently AI managed, and aren't removing International football entirely?

[XaW]

Just now, sc91 said:

Yeah, I do agree, though I will note that this is a feature that has been a request/hope to be updated for years, so if it's with the intent that it taken to come back better, then fine, even then though, at least leave the limp corpse that it currently is in, rather than a removal.

Might just be me, a football manager sim without international management feels so immersion breaking. 

I'd pick remove for a year and bring out a new and better version, but I can see your point.

I will add, as far as I understood, there will still be international matches and such, it's just the ability to manage a national side that is removed.

[Lord Rowell]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I'm one of those who will never play women's football in the game, but I have no objection to it being there. 

In hindsight though, I wonder if SI are now regretting the decision to implement it this year at the same time as the single biggest overhaul to the game in nearly 20 years. This might have been a game mode that would have been better suited to going into the next game when international football will (presumably) return, given that's arguably where most of the user base who will play the women's game will focus on. 

I'm going to make an educated guess as to a definite "no".
The reason is, I think the two go together, as aspects of the graphics - things like facegen, ME visuals i.e. how women's bodies move in a different way to mens, intrinsically need a more powerful and flexible game enging i.e. Unity.
Hence, I don't think there was a choice - women's football and a new game engine may well have had to be delivered synchronously.

[Craigus89]

5 minutes ago, Dbuk1 said:

If you could help me out?

If you being able to name players was the criteria by which it was decided what content was worthy of inclusion in the game, it would have a pretty limited scope. In fact, I'd be willing to be that you have, many times, played in teams/leagues/nations of which you have zero knowledge. 

Yet, because some of the players you now potentially don't know also don't have dicks, you feel that is no longer acceptable?

[XaW]

1 minute ago, RandomGuy. said:

I enjoyed it, particularly when you're a few years in and can mix it with a club job where you've good youngsters breaking through.

I just don't understand how it couldn't be included, even in a basic state, when literally everything needed for it to be used at club level. I take it they are having International teams in it, just permanently AI managed, and aren't removing International football entirely?

As I said earlier, I expect the job of porting it over to the new game is a big job with Unity or something. So scrapping it will allow them to reach other milestones and implement other stuff better. Not that I know anything, so it's still a guess.

[Lord Rowell]

I mean, I don't see why not, they've such absolute knowledge they're likely billionaires anyway. Perhaps Elon Musk is within our midst ... a secret FM'er

Edited September 4 by Lord Rowell
bad grammar edit

[Haiku]

SI is trying to sell an unfinished game with international football removed in favor of women's football. No thanks. It seems they're going the Disney and Sony route: go woke, go broke.

Edited September 4 by Haiku

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

I'm going to make an educated guess as to a definite "no".
The reason is, I think the two go together, as aspects of the graphics - things like facegen, ME visuals i.e. how women's bodies move in a different way to mens, intrinsically need a more powerful and flexible game enging i.e. Unity.
Hence, I don't think there was a choice - women's football and a new game engine may well have had to be delivered synchronously.

The new engine will be here next year too!! 

It wouldn't surprise me if most of the delays were due to how to marry up the ME with the new graphics engine for the women's game, whilst also having to extensively develop and test for the core men's game too. Perhaps bitten off more than they can chew. 

However, I'm just wildly speculating here, as that's the general theme of the thread. If you can't beat them, join them I say...

[harrycarrie]

There are some absolute lemons in here god damn.

[Dbuk1]

Listen please…..it’s not about implementing woman’s football. That’s great…..but it should not be your main priority or main focus at all. That’s all I have to say and once again I support woman in football and hope it grows and grows. Over and out…..peace.

Edited September 4 by Dbuk1

[Craigus89]

We’ve graduated to women’s football in itself being woke, folks. 
 

I despair for the women in the lives of these posters - though probably only their mums, as there is no way they’d be able to hold down an adult relationship with a female given their attitudes on display here. JFC.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Just now, harrycarrie said:

There are some absolute lemons in here god damn.

You sound surprised! 

[Javier]

hace 15 minutos, kiwityke1983 dijo:

My view on women's football is exactly the same. It's not for me, I'll probably rarely load it up but I'm all for more choice.

FM24 was the first time I've played in the MLS in absolutely donkeys years and I genuinely had to reload about 8 times the first registration of players I had and read a bunch of online guides to even get my head round it and be able to register a squad.

It's really not well explained and the AI also does an awful job of registering squads etc.

If they are looking at removing things that don't work then the MLS would be a fair shout IMO.

 

This is outside the scope of this thread but since the AI can't really cope with the MLS roster rules either it should have simpler rules in game. I know it's a licensed league but if EAFC gets away with it I can't see why FM wouldn't, especially considering that simpler rules would make more people play in the MLS and thus become more familiar with the brand.

Edited September 4 by Javier

[sc91]

8 minutes ago, XaW said:

I'd pick remove for a year and bring out a new and better version, but I can see your point.

I will add, as far as I understood, there will still be international matches and such, it's just the ability to manage a national side that is removed.

That seems fair enough. 

It certainly puts me into the camp of 'skip this year, wait till the next.' Let them iron out the kinks with 25 and see what 26 can deliver.

[Haiku]

Miles' anger translator: We messed up with the schedule. We tried to put together stuff nobody wants to play, and now we don't have time to produce a finished game. We have to remove features and modes because we didn’t put in the work to keep them. However, we must release this unfinished game as soon as possible, or we’ll lose money. I hope this year won’t be an absolute shambles.

Edited September 4 by Haiku

[ajw10]

Just now, sc91 said:

That seems fair enough. 

It certainly puts me into the camp of 'skip this year, wait till the next.' Let them iron out the kinks with 25 and see what 26 can deliver.

the price is going to be interesting. How can they justify charging full price for this?

[nico_france]

No interest at all in women football, so won’t play it

Barely played as an international manager, but as it will be removed, I would at least liked that the new managers hired by the federation will make sense.

Was so annoyed in FM 24 to see really random mangers (losers, low profiles…) in charge of France for example 

[sc91]

1 minute ago, ajw10 said:

the price is going to be interesting. How can they justify charging full price for this?

I'd imagine it'll still be a full price game (and I think for what FM24 was, that was high).

Personally I would pay full price if it became a live service and constantly updating but as it's going to be a 26 version, then I'll wait till then, 25 appears to be a 'beta' of the new works.

[RandomGuy.]

12 minutes ago, XaW said:

As I said earlier, I expect the job of porting it over to the new game is a big job with Unity or something. So scrapping it will allow them to reach other milestones and implement other stuff better. Not that I know anything, so it's still a guess.

Aye would've liked more details about why its not in the game, tbh. It's surely just an extension of the club management side but with more squad registration prompts?

But I don't know exactly the differences between International and club management code wise, so I'm more than likely oversimplifying it.

[ajw10]

1 minute ago, sc91 said:

I'd imagine it'll still be a full price game (and I think for what FM24 was, that was high).

Personally I would pay full price if it became a live service and constantly updating but as it's going to be a 26 version, then I'll wait till then, 25 appears to be a 'beta' of the new works.

but surely sales drop? Why should anyone buy this game?

[mackem10]

21 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

You couldn't have missed the point by a wider margin.

So removing weight is an "awfully, ridiculously high level of censorship"?

LOL. I just can't. 

What a fragile bunch of children.

Removing weight in a football manager simulation game because it may or may not result in body shaming is a ridiculously high level of censoring, yes, it is beyond niche.

 

A lower level would be to remove people doing it on TV shows. 

 

I'm sorry you couldn't comprehend the point being attempted and found it necessary to make yours, ironically talking about being fragile and somewhat childishly (again, ironically complaining about people being childish).

[DMaster2]

Dear devs, thanks for making my decision easy. I won't buy FM25. Switching out international management for women's football basically no one follow irl? No thanks, you won't get my money.

I'll grab my free copy of FM24 from the epic store and that will be what i'll play this year (i was on fm23 still).

[wazzaflow10]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

I can't engage in this as my point has never been to replace weight with strength. My stance on this topic was to look at Agility, Balance and Strength.

Apologies. I should have included those as well. Wasn't meant to back you in a corner.

Isak v Haaland at the time both basically 18 years old.

Agility 14 v 11

Balance was 12 v 14

Strength was 10 v 15

Hulk v Richarlison

Agility 14 v 14

Balance 17 v 12

Strength 15 v 15

Weight to me seems to be somewhat important in determining what is possible for development because despite Haaland being now 94kg to Isak's 74kg he is physically better than Isak in every way. Haaland put on ~8kg of mass from 18 to 24 while Isak never put any weight on.

If we look at Richarlison at age 20 we might think hey he could be just like hulk but because he's started off so slight he's likely not going to reach the same profile. 

Correct me if I'm wrong though but height and weight do change in the game as players age (at least for the first few years for regens). So if your player suddenly gained 5-10kg your development path for them from might be different. I assume the attributes change as well but weight seems to be a soft indicator of some of the limits around what a player is capable of becoming.

I understand SI's decision to not want to support bullying or harassment. Like I said earlier - not a deal breaker just less immersive maybe harder to understand why one player is developing one way while another isn't despite having similar starting attributes. If they could provide something like Slim, Average, Athletic/Muscular even I think that would be a nice middle ground to no information vs exact weights.

[Haiku]

They considered releasing the new engine last year but decided to work on it for an extra year, and now they are making this announcement. It must have been a rough development cycle with the new engine, no doubt. However, there's no excuse for not planning for another year or assigning more people to work on it. Trying to sell this to grab cash shows no appreciation for the fanbase. They should sell the game and offer version 26 free of charge to those who bought 25 to support them. There's no way people should pay full price for a beta version.

[andu1]

1 hour ago, Os said:

Was I the only one who found Nick Maddens departure disturbing?

When did he leave? Wasn't he the match engine lead for FM?

This doesnt seem like good news at all..

[sc91]

6 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

but surely sales drop? Why should anyone buy this game?

Honest answer? SI have a monopoly. 

[ajw10]

Just now, sc91 said:

Honest answer? SI have a monopoly. 

yes, which is a huge issue. But what will entice new people to this game?

[Haiku]

3 minutes ago, andu1 said:

When did he leave? Wasn't he the match engine lead for FM?

This doesnt seem like good news at all..

He left for EA and is joining their F1 Game team.

[Cartopis84]

Wow this is so disappointing, despite what SI say I think its pretty evident that resources allocated to womens football cut away from dev on the rest of the game and major features like International managemnt are being removed because of it. Miles cites the % of players who play these features as being very less but realistically who is going to play womens football? After the novelty wears off I highly doubt even 5% of players will be playing this. They have even removed weights because of this lol. Just feels like in an attempt to be woke SI are alienating their core target market. Because lets be real, how many women play FM? and How many FM players are going to play womens mode?? Is it going to add any new players or target market to justify the resources spent on it?? Highly doubtful. FM is already a niche target market and this is just not catering to it. Just seems like a bad decision business wise.

It is just hard not to think that resources assigned to womens football which barely anyone could play would be better served elsewhere instead of us getting a half finished game. Let us not forget that we were promised groundbreaking features for 25 and that is why we were supposed to be content with the lesser number of changes in 24 according to Miles.

[davehanson]

29 minutes ago, TopToffee said:

When you get near 10, let me know.

I’m above 10 and only on the 2nd page since the latest development blog was announced, so yeah.

Like I said you are telling people they are posting things as facts when it’s just their opinion and then doing the same yourself. Pot. Kettle. Black. Stick to one or the other yeah?

[sc91]

2 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

yes, which is a huge issue. But what will entice new people to this game?

I actually don't think SI struggles on that front. I'll maintain my stance that I had on the debacle that was FM24, they know a product will sell regardless, so subconsciously the effort won't be so high but the need to have the constant flow of cash is. 

I do wonder to think how bad things must be to cut content and delay.

[ajw10]

Can we mute the word "woke" in this thread? It's a misused word by people who don't actually knows what it means

[Cartopis84]

Also removing weights for body shaming reasons is insane.... why not remove height as well if we are doing that to not offend short people?

 

Reading the first part if the blog about Miles is kinda insane because who cares honestly? Kinda feel like Miles sees himself sort of like a Dana White figure where he is trying to promote himself before the game FM.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Mods should start banning anyone who uses 'woke' as a derogatory term. 

[HUNT3R]

5 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Apologies. I should have included those as well. Wasn't meant to back you in a corner.

Isak v Haaland at the time both basically 18 years old.

Agility 14 v 11

Balance was 12 v 14

Strength was 10 v 15

Hulk v Richarlison

Agility 14 v 14

Balance 17 v 12

Strength 15 v 15

Weight to me seems to be somewhat important in determining what is possible for development because despite Haaland being now 94kg to Isak's 74kg he is physically better than Isak in every way. Haaland put on ~8kg of mass from 18 to 24 while Isak never put any weight on.

If we look at Richarlison at age 20 we might think hey he could be just like hulk but because he's started off so slight he's likely not going to reach the same profile. 

Correct me if I'm wrong though but height and weight do change in the game as players age (at least for the first few years for regens). So if your player suddenly gained 5-10kg your development path for them from might be different. I assume the attributes change as well but weight seems to be a soft indicator of some of the limits around what a player is capable of becoming.

I understand SI's decision to not want to support bullying or harassment. Like I said earlier - not a deal breaker just less immersive maybe harder to understand why one player is developing one way while another isn't despite having similar starting attributes. If they could provide something like Slim, Average, Athletic/Muscular even I think that would be a nice middle ground to no information vs exact weights.

No worries. I was just being careful.

You paint an interesting picture. I would have had Isak and Richarlison as fairly similar players, before that comparison. Didn't realise Richarlison is considered that much stronger.

Looking at the attributes, I'd agree with a lot of it. Strength and balance means you are a solid player - you're not going to be pushed off the ball. You're sacrificing some agility (same with Lukaku earlier in the thread) in favour of being more physically imposing.

There's a lot to Balance outside just withstanding physical challenges though (and it's the minor attribute in combination with Strength, but still a factor) but it does help to give a better view of the player.

Quote

I understand SI's decision to not want to support bullying or harassment.

By the way, I don't think we've had anything official around this. Might well be a reason, or part of it, though.

[starbugg]

I take it they get the 5% figure about international management from players giving Sega permission to collect data in the preferences, I can't think how else they would know.

So I'm wondering how many people have turned off permission (like me) and manage internationally?

[TopToffee]

8 minutes ago, davehanson said:

I’m above 10 and only on the 2nd page since the latest development blog was announced, so yeah.

Like I said you are telling people they are posting things as facts when it’s just their opinion and then doing the same yourself. Pot. Kettle. Black. Stick to one or the other yeah?

Course you are

[davehanson]

1 minute ago, TopToffee said:

Course you are

You know when you have nothing better to say. Of course you do.

[HUNT3R]

How about we leave out the digs and insults out of comments altogether, no matter which side you are on? We're supposed to be discussing a topic, so let us stick to that.

[Aim_Less]

15 minutes ago, Haiku said:

They considered releasing the new engine last year but decided to work on it for an extra year, and now they are making this announcement. It must have been a rough development cycle with the new engine, no doubt. However, there's no excuse for not planning for another year or assigning more people to work on it. Trying to sell this to grab cash shows no appreciation for the fanbase. They should sell the game and offer version 26 free of charge to those who bought 25 to support them. There's no way people should pay full price for a beta version.

This is what happens when you get lazy and constantly recycle code and don't learn new skills.

Now their forced to actually code thing's from scratch to a new engine and it's clearly their struggling.

Instead of being honest about it their pulling an EA on removal of features to sell later at full price and having to justify the usage of Sega's woke investment buddies money 

[Javier]

hace 6 minutos, Cartopis84 dijo:

Also removing weights for body shaming reasons is insane.... why not remove height as well if we are doing that to not offend short people?

I don't know if that's really the reason though because I think EAFC has women players' weight and that's a game with a much wider player base.

[Haiku]

By the way, only 5% play international mode because it hasn't been updated in at least a decade. If they had invested time and effort, people would be playing it A LOT more.