FM 25 DEVELOPMENT UPDATE

[kiwityke1983]

8 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

With that said, with weight not being shown in the game, are we to assume that all players will have the same models? Will it be possible to tell the difference between a 6’4 skinny striker vs a 6’0 stocky defender? Or will players simple be labeled in their profiles as “skinny” “average”, “obese”, etc?

I'm going to guess that yes we will seeing as Miles said that weight was still going to be in the database, just not on the in game profiles.

Can only speak for myself but don't think I've ever particularly looked at it other than by accident, when I was trying to see how tall someone was.

I think they could have said nothing and taken it out and I wouldn't have noticed.

[Mars_Blackmon]

11 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

I'm going to guess that yes we will seeing as Miles said that weight was still going to be in the database, just not on the in game profiles.

Can only speak for myself but don't think I've ever particularly looked at it other than by accident, when I was trying to see how tall someone was.

I think they could have said nothing and taken it out and I wouldn't have noticed.

From that quote, i took that as backend logic to emulate physics. It would be very awkward for players to show up in different shapes but no way to see it outside of games. That would be some important piece of info missing when considering UX design as for me personally helped immersion especially with the graphics we had prior. 
 

which brings me to my next point, how important will physics be in the new match engine if we can ignore weight and mass on the front end?

Edited September 10 by Mars_Blackmon

[themadsheep2001]

44 minutes ago, mackem10 said:

Don't doubt for a second that it is an intelligent business decision, It's just when those decisions are seen as detracting from the core customers, it stands to reason there will be some unrest.

 

 

Tbh the vast majority of what I have read is people on one side trying to box up the other as hating on women's football when actually there has only been a very small percentage of posts where that is present (that haven't been deleted, ofc.). There is a big difference between hating women's football and being annoyed at the developers for lessening the game and focusing their time too heavily on a game mode many aren't interested in.

The whole point is that people keep talking about womens football as "a game mode they are focusing too heavily on" and ignoring the behemoth in the room that is the entire game being ported/built into Unity. One of these things is a lot bigger than the other and will be taking up far more of their time. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

9 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The whole point is that people keep talking about womens football as "a game mode they are focusing too heavily on" and ignoring the behemoth in the room that is the entire game being ported/built into Unity. One of these things is a lot bigger than the other and will be taking up far more of their time. 

It we are going to be transparent, the only reason it’s a higher priority is because of partnerships and sponsors they receive in order for them to expand staff and work on the unity engine. Both would be equally time consuming assuming international football was full fledge…Hence why it’s was left off.

Edited September 10 by Mars_Blackmon

[mackem10]

9 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The whole point is that people keep talking about womens football as "a game mode they are focusing too heavily on" and ignoring the behemoth in the room that is the entire game being ported/built into Unity. One of these things is a lot bigger than the other and will be taking up far more of their time. 

 

I'm no game programmer so it's very difficult to visualize the time scales of each development and whatnot, I'm sure the majority of issues have been because of the new engine but that obviously wasn't cited as the reason behind removing weight. Not to mention that if they're unable to keep aspects of the game, let alone fix them, is it really the best time to introduce different game modes? But of course, we are going round and round with arguments already stated in the thread and that's not my point.  My point was only that there appears to be more people speaking about others who hate women's football than there appear to be people who hate women's football as is often the case in these two sides of the same coin type arguments. 

[themadsheep2001]

12 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

It we are going to be transparent, the only reason it’s a higher priority is because of partnerships and sponsors they receive in order for them to expand staff and work on the unity engine. Both would be equally time consuming assuming international football was full fledge…Hence why it’s was left off.

Womens football is one part of the game, Unity is the entire game. They aren't going to be equally time consuming 

[wazzaflow10]

15 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

which brings me to my next point, how important will physics be in the new match engine if we can ignore weight and mass on the front end?

weight has apparently never been part of the engine. From the game's perspective strength is strength, agility is agility, and balance is balance whether you're 10kg or 200kg. Duels are also much more complex than we probably give them credit for.

There seems to be a body type model for the researchers to use to describe someone. I suspect at some point a skin will expose it. In all honesty that's sufficient instead of an exact weight even if it doesn't matter.

[Fat_Frank8]

29 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The whole point is that people keep talking about womens football as "a game mode they are focusing too heavily on" and ignoring the behemoth in the room that is the entire game being ported/built into Unity. One of these things is a lot bigger than the other and will be taking up far more of their time. 

So you’re saying that change to Unity+adding womens football is entirely possible within the given time frame, but change to Unity+international management isn’t? Because that is what’s being talked about, you’ve had that explained to you I don’t know how many times. 
 

And no, it’s not because I hate womens football or whatever you who think it’s a fantastic addition to the game are saying. It’s because I’m more interested in international management. 

[Mars_Blackmon]

16 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Womens football is one part of the game, Unity is the entire game. They aren't going to be equally time consuming 

I’m talking bout women’s football vs international football. I’m not sure why unity would be time consuming outside of a learning curve.

[Mars_Blackmon]

16 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

weight has apparently never been part of the engine. From the game's perspective strength is strength, agility is agility, and balance is balance whether you're 10kg or 200kg. Duels are also much more complex than we probably give them credit for.

There seems to be a body type model for the researchers to use to describe someone. I suspect at some point a skin will expose it. In all honesty that's sufficient instead of an exact weight even if it doesn't matter.

I agree with this, but i also would expect user’s expectations on the new engine is to have physics matter much more than it did. I mean that’s been one of the debates about the ME over the years 

[XaW]

4 minutes ago, Fat_Frank8 said:

So you’re saying that change to Unity+adding womens football is entirely possible within the given time frame, but change to Unity+international management isn’t? Because that is what’s being talked about, you’ve had that explained to you I don’t know how many times. 
 

And no, it’s not because I hate womens football or whatever you who think it’s a fantastic addition to the game are saying. It’s because I’m more interested in international management. 

Ok, I take it you are not familiar with how software development works, so I'm going to guess how SI have gotten here from my own experience with similar issues. NOTE: I do not work for SI, I don't know how thing work at SI, or if I'm correct, but I think your post is an example of not understanding, so I'm trying to correct that view.

If SI started working on Unity for example 3 years ago, and they also knew they wanted women's football in. It makes sense for them to combine these two things, while leaving the men's football as well as international fotball on the old engine. So they have had 3 years to create women's football and that could be about done after possibly finding a lot of pitfalls and getting experience with the engine. Now, a year ago they really started to push over men's football too and probably found new issues in porting older, but could possibly use the experience from adding women's football to make it easier. However, they might have found more issues porting functions from the older engine into Unity, and thus that part now takes a lot more time. And then they also have international football, which they might consider the smallest part, but that now must be pushed back to focus on the men's football.

So from this, it's not women's football vs international fotball, but rather men's football vs international football because they are just about done on women's football and doing QA and bugfixes and tweaks rather than full move. And SI now see they won't reach moving both men's and international football, and if it's impossible to keep the old engine just for international football, then the men's football will go first.

Now, I don't know if this is the case or not, but it seems likely I'm not too far off the mark, as that's how I would have done it if I were part of the team who would move a major part of my software to a new framework. I would use the time to get to know the new framework by creating the new feature in there directly, and when the team is more experienced in the new framework, I would expect moving older code to be easier than to do the opposite. It would also make sense to have the backend devs do a lot of backend work before the frontend devs do their thing after the designers have mockups.

As I said, I might be way off how SI does things, but I think it's important to not jump to "women's football is added at the cost of international football" because we don't know, and we don't have any basis for saying that other than wild guesses. And I get it, people who like international football are disappointed it's gone, but at the same time, SI have said it will return as part of the base game in FM26 all new. So if you love that part, you have the option to skip FM25 and return for FM26 if you wish and then get a much better experience than you have currently.

[Fat_Frank8]

6 minutes ago, XaW said:

Ok, I take it you are not familiar with how software development works, so I'm going to guess how SI have gotten here from my own experience with similar issues.

. . 

As I said, I might be way off how SI does things, but I think it's important to not jump to "women's football is added at the cost of international football" because we don't know, and we don't have any basis for saying that other than wild guesses. And I get it, people who like international football are disappointed it's gone, but at the same time, SI have said it will return as part of the base game in FM26 all new. So if you love that part, you have the option to skip FM25 and return for FM26 if you wish and then get a much better experience than you have currently.

Haha, I’m extremely familiar with how software development works, thank you. 
 

I get what you’re saying, and that is a possible (I wouldn’t have done it that way) scenario. But you just said it’s important to not jump to conclusions based on guesses and then concluded how you think it went down based entirely on your own guess. 

[wazzaflow10]

16 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

but i also would expect user’s expectations on the new engine is to have physics matter much more than it did.

I think it would have more potential than the old in-house engine. I don't know if they would have realized it in the first iteration of the game given all the moving parts to port the game over.

[Mars_Blackmon]

16 minutes ago, XaW said:

Ok, I take it you are not familiar with how software development works, so I'm going to guess how SI have gotten here from my own experience with similar issues. NOTE: I do not work for SI, I don't know how thing work at SI, or if I'm correct, but I think your post is an example of not understanding, so I'm trying to correct that view.

If SI started working on Unity for example 3 years ago, and they also knew they wanted women's football in. It makes sense for them to combine these two things, while leaving the men's football as well as international fotball on the old engine. So they have had 3 years to create women's football and that could be about done after possibly finding a lot of pitfalls and getting experience with the engine. Now, a year ago they really started to push over men's football too and probably found new issues in porting older, but could possibly use the experience from adding women's football to make it easier. However, they might have found more issues porting functions from the older engine into Unity, and thus that part now takes a lot more time. And then they also have international football, which they might consider the smallest part, but that now must be pushed back to focus on the men's football.

So from this, it's not women's football vs international fotball, but rather men's football vs international football because they are just about done on women's football and doing QA and bugfixes and tweaks rather than full move. And SI now see they won't reach moving both men's and international football, and if it's impossible to keep the old engine just for international football, then the men's football will go first.

Now, I don't know if this is the case or not, but it seems likely I'm not too far off the mark, as that's how I would have done it if I were part of the team who would move a major part of my software to a new framework. I would use the time to get to know the new framework by creating the new feature in there directly, and when the team is more experienced in the new framework, I would expect moving older code to be easier than to do the opposite. It would also make sense to have the backend devs do a lot of backend work before the frontend devs do their thing after the designers have mockups.

As I said, I might be way off how SI does things, but I think it's important to not jump to "women's football is added at the cost of international football" because we don't know, and we don't have any basis for saying that other than wild guesses. And I get it, people who like international football are disappointed it's gone, but at the same time, SI have said it will return as part of the base game in FM26 all new. So if you love that part, you have the option to skip FM25 and return for FM26 if you wish and then get a much better experience than you have currently.

I think people get all of this, the point is, women’s football + unity is only happening because of partnership and sponsors who invested money in order for SI to have resources to start the work on unity. With that knowledge, Women’s football was priority #1 for the unity engines for nothing other than stakeholders. Of course the main game (men’s) isn’t going to get cut due to time constraints, that leaves other features along with International management (which many would say is must have when discussing the women’s game)

 

They pandered, and it’s backfiring.

[XaW]

23 minutes ago, Fat_Frank8 said:

Haha, I’m extremely familiar with how software development works, thank you. 

I get what you’re saying, and that is a possible (I wouldn’t have done it that way) scenario. But you just said it’s important to not jump to conclusions based on guesses and then concluded how you think it went down based entirely on your own guess. 

Well, you came across as quite brash about how it was x vs y and most people I know in software development are far less confident in how other companies work as they know how it can be. And based on that I took my guess.

I haven't jumped to conclusions at all. I have made, what I would call, an educated guess, but I also firmly state:

41 minutes ago, XaW said:

I might be way off how SI does things, but I think it's important to not jump to "women's football is added at the cost of international football" because we don't know, and we don't have any basis for saying that other than wild guesses.

And I gave my reasons for why I think so. But again, I may be way of the mark, but I could also be close, only SI knows. That is not concluding anything other than "we don't know". What I was doing though is giving a reason for why this:

1 hour ago, Fat_Frank8 said:

you’re saying that change to Unity+adding womens football is entirely possible within the given time frame, but change to Unity+international management isn’t?

is indeed a real possibility if they did it along the lines I proposed. I did not draw any conclusions, but I gave you a way it could indeed be possible to add women's football and not international football to the new game through Unity.

[XaW]

29 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

I think people get all of this, the point is, women’s football + unity is only happening because of partnership and sponsors who invested money in order for SI to have resources to start the work on unity. With that knowledge, Women’s football was priority #1 for the unity engines for nothing other than stakeholders. Of course the main game (men’s) isn’t going to get cut due to time constraints, that leaves other features along with International management (which many would say is must have when discussing the women’s game)

They pandered, and it’s backfiring.

What partnership and sponsorships are you referring to? I haven't seen anything in that regard. Also, who are SI pandering to?

[jmlima]

24 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

I think people get all of this, the point is, women’s football + unity is only happening because of partnership and sponsors who invested money in order for SI to have resources to start the work on unity. With that knowledge, Women’s football was priority #1 for the unity engines for nothing other than stakeholders. Of course the main game (men’s) isn’t going to get cut due to time constraints, that leaves other features along with International management (which many would say is must have when discussing the women’s game)

 

They pandered, and it’s backfiring.

This is a pretty surreal argument that conflates unity + women's football vs not sure what + man's football. Guys, the move to unity has no relation to woman's football. Unity is something that is being done not because of woman's football. Woman's football is an extension of the man's football portion of the game, with those two elements of the same code being ported to unity. I get the impression people seem confused about what unity is and what's involved in moving legacy code (presumably also change it to c#) to something like unity and what's the role of the several parts in this.

Or people are just pretending they don't understand to suit some ulterior motive.  I mean I get it, I wanted woman's football BECAUSE of international management. I'm properly pissed with that. But I'm not going to blame one thing for the other more when I suspect the whole reason some parts are not being added it because they run out of the time given by Sega and are chopping bits that (their view) see little use to be able to finish what they expect will have a lot of use (the rest of the game). some above explains it better, if the equation is to lose 5 to gain 25, I would take the exact same business decision.

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 minutes ago, XaW said:

What partnership and sponsorships are you referring to? I haven't seen anything in that regard. Also, who are SI pandering to?

You don’t remember the dev blog thst introduced the idea of women football coming to SI? That’s is where it was written. And they are pandering to the stakeholders as i mentioned in my post.

[Mars_Blackmon]

2 minutes ago, jmlima said:

This is a pretty surreal argument that conflates unity + women's football vs not sure what + man's football. Guys, the move to unity has no relation to woman's football. Unity is something that is being done not because of woman's football. Woman's football is an extension of the man's football portion of the game, with those two elements of the same code being ported to unity. I get the impression people seem confused about what unity is and what's involved in moving legacy code (presumably also change it to c#) to something like unity and what's the role of the several parts in this.

Or people are just pretending they don't understand to suit some ulterior motive.  I mean I get it, I wanted woman's football BECAUSE of international management. I'm properly pissed with that. But I'm not going to blame one thing for the other more when I suspect the whole reason some parts are not being added it because they run out of the time given by Sega and are chopping bits that (their view) see little use to be able to finish what they expect will have a lot of use (the rest of the game). some above explains it better, if the equation is to lose 5 to gain 25, I would take the exact same business decision.

Did you forget that they been working on the women’s game with the unity engine for 3 years? And had a separate team?

[Fredrik]

8 hours ago, Federico said:

I myself play regurarly international football "on the way", once I won some silverware with the club, I love to have a stint with the NT just to resign after the tournaments (usually WC & ET) and look for another journey.

To be honest I find this "5% cut" pretty much "a way" to get rid of the stuff they could not or not want to include anymore. As said previously I'd be curious to see how many people interact with PCs and how many delegate'em to the assistant, in example.

I think they surely have good reasons to remove features, as much as I'm sure that if these reasons are "reasonable" the most of us would have understood, but in this case it just increased the speculation and some exaggeration in reactions from some users, not of a great benefit to the forum.

It's entirely possible all this will be nothing come late November and the game is released with around the same number and severity of bugs as usual. Some people will complain about exclusion of some features and the inclusion of another feature but the game itself would be fine. 

It's also entirely possible that there's an ongoing epic meltdown behind the scenes which is why there's a delay. 

I'm an avid editor and won't buy the game unless there's a working pre-game editor. I understand I'm a tiny minority but it's still important to me. I invite others with similar(or different) concerns to voice them. I get a bit antsy about possibly not having an editor but we'll see. The whole upgrade and delay means I'm less certain this time. 

Edited September 10 by Fredrik

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

You don’t remember the dev blog thst introduced the idea of women football coming to SI? That’s is where it was written. And they are pandering to the stakeholders as i mentioned in my post.

Well, I read over it again, and I still don't see any thing about it. Feel free to show it to me:

https://community.sports-interactive.com/forums/topic/555315-how-were-introducing-womens-football-into-football-manager/

Other than:

Quote

I mentioned earlier in the blog that the cost of this project will be substantial. To help offset some of those costs we have already started conversations with some potential commercial partners who share our vision and who will be able to offer financial help in return for a wide integration of their brand into FM.

But we’re also committed to being a commercial partner for women’s football. We have ongoing partnerships with AFC Wimbledon Ladies & Girls and Watford Women as part of our deals with their men’s teams. But that’s not enough. So, today I’m also proud to announce that we’ve signed a commercial partnership agreement for the 2021/22 season with Leicester City Women, which will see FM branding feature on the dugout and interview boards for the club.

Where they are talking about potential commercial partners who can be integrated into FM, I can't see any other references to it, rather than the sponsorships.

So again, what partnerships and sponsors do you know about who have made demands of SI. I'm serious, feel free to share, as I would love to know. And you say "pandering to stakeholders", but once again, who are these stakeholders?

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

I’m talking bout women’s football vs international football. I’m not sure why unity would be time consuming outside of a learning curve.

Which is not what i was talking about. I mentioned womens football vs Unity, you were one to crowbar international football into it when you replyed to me. 

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, Fat_Frank8 said:

So you’re saying that change to Unity+adding womens football is entirely possible within the given time frame, but change to Unity+international management isn’t? Because that is what’s being talked about, you’ve had that explained to you I don’t know how many times. 
 

And no, it’s not because I hate womens football or whatever you who think it’s a fantastic addition to the game are saying. It’s because I’m more interested in international management. 

I was talking about womens football vs Unity only. The person replying added international football, which was not the comparison i was making so i have no idea why you have jumped in. 

[ForTheLoveOfTheGame]

4 minutes ago, Fredrik said:

 

I'm an avid editor and won't buy the game unless there's a working pre-game editor. I understand I'm a tiny minority but it's still important to me. I invite others with similar(or different) concerns to voice them. I get a bit antsy about possibly not having an editor but we'll see. The whole upgrade and delay means I'm less certain this time. 

No pre game editor is also a make or break for me. I don’t think they would do that to us though…

[cherryman71]

The development update announcement from SI kind of takes the phrase "you've been FM'ed" to a whole new level

[jcw163]

5 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Tbh i think its telling that of all the gripes people could have with the game (that have existed for some time) its womens football they complain about. Like international football wasnt perhaps a bit rubbish before that, or press conferences/interactions etc. 

Hell when it comes to the ME, bringing in womens football actively forces them to have to make it more varied (something they have spoken about so i look forward to putting that to the test) which a good portion of this forum said the game needed

It's sad really. There are a lot of legitimate things to be critical of in the game as is (too much fluff imo) and I personally am one of those very disappointed about the removal of international management (doubly so with the introduction of womens football, given Euro 2025 and also the relative profile of the national teams vs the club sides).

Thing is it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that game development isn't a case of "we spent time on women's football so we have to take other features out", that's a nonsense and exposes people's agendas for what they are.

Anyway, here's hoping FM25 is still good enough to eat as many hours as they all have over the past 30 odd years I've wasted lmao.

[oche balboa]

Womens Football has a feature is good. But really i was only interested in playing International Football with the Lionesses but thats not going to happen 

[Mars_Blackmon]

32 minutes ago, XaW said:

Well, I read over it again, and I still don't see any thing about it. Feel free to show it to me:

https://community.sports-interactive.com/forums/topic/555315-how-were-introducing-womens-football-into-football-manager/

Other than:

Where they are talking about potential commercial partners who can be integrated into FM, I can't see any other references to it, rather than the sponsorships.

So again, what partnerships and sponsors do you know about who have made demands of SI. I'm serious, feel free to share, as I would love to know. And you say "pandering to stakeholders", but once again, who are these stakeholders?

lol nah we not doing that. You are adding language that was not apart of the conversation while simultaneously pointing out the stakeholders I’m talking about. We can argue back and forth all day but neither of us know what’s in those contracts. 
 

if youre arguments is that women’s football was not a priority because of the money it brings (which even mentioned by a dev in one of those threads) but simply it was added to the engine first  over more demanded features just because than that don’t help your defense.

Edited September 10 by Mars_Blackmon

[jmlima]

32 minutes ago, XaW said:

Well, I read over it again, and I still don't see any thing about it. Feel free to show it to me:

https://community.sports-interactive.com/forums/topic/555315-how-were-introducing-womens-football-into-football-manager/

Other than:

Where they are talking about potential commercial partners who can be integrated into FM, I can't see any other references to it, rather than the sponsorships.

So again, what partnerships and sponsors do you know about who have made demands of SI. I'm serious, feel free to share, as I would love to know. And you say "pandering to stakeholders", but once again, who are these stakeholders?

I mean, if they are stakeholders because they are sponsors then I would point (for example) that SI is the sponsor of AFC, not AFC the sponsor of SI. And, shock and horror, they also sponsor the man's team.

https://www.afcwimbledon.co.uk/news/2024/september/10/lee-brown-to-return-as-special-guest-on-saturday/

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

lol nah we not doing that. You are adding language that was not apart of the conversation while simultaneously pointing out the stakeholders I’m talking about. We can argue back and forth all day but neither of us know what’s in those contracts. 

if youre arguments is that women’s football was not a priority because of the money it brings (which even mentioned by a dev in one of those threads) but simply to add it and work on it first over more demanded features than that don’t help your defense.

No, I'm not letting you off on this. You claimed that SI are pandering and that there are other stakeholders here. If you are going to throw out those types of accusations, then you damn well better back it up with evidence. That SI have said they are looking for commercial partners, does not equal any type of pandering or that those partners have any say in how or what SI does. They are already having ads in the game, and I've yet to hear anything about them doing this.

I'm not claiming anything, I'm holding on to YOUR claims about pandering and that there are other stakeholders in play here. Those where from you, not from me. One can't prove a negative, and the burden of proof is on the accuser. So go ahead, show your hand.

No, I'm not saying that SI will make money from this, I don't know. Did they make money when they added the MLS and the whole crazy setup they use there with drafts and allocation money? I don't know, and I don't claim to. Perhaps both or either have or will make the money back, neither of us know, and that's also beside the point.

Either prove your claims or stop making up unfounded accusations and then burrow your head in the sand when you are challenged.

[Mars_Blackmon]

14 minutes ago, XaW said:

No, I'm not letting you off on this. You claimed that SI are pandering and that there are other stakeholders here. If you are going to throw out those types of accusations, then you damn well better back it up with evidence. That SI have said they are looking for commercial partners, does not equal any type of pandering or that those partners have any say in how or what SI does. They are already having ads in the game, and I've yet to hear anything about them doing this.

I'm not claiming anything, I'm holding on to YOUR claims about pandering and that there are other stakeholders in play here. Those where from you, not from me. One can't prove a negative, and the burden of proof is on the accuser. So go ahead, show your hand.

No, I'm not saying that SI will make money from this, I don't know. Did they make money when they added the MLS and the whole crazy setup they use there with drafts and allocation money? I don't know, and I don't claim to. Perhaps both or either have or will make the money back, neither of us know, and that's also beside the point.

Either prove your claims or stop making up unfounded accusations and then burrow your head in the sand when you are challenged.

Who said anything about other stakeholders? You posted what I was referring to. Is there money involved to help them offset the cost of going with a new engine and expanding thier staff, yes or no?

 

Was the separate team working on unity and the women’s game for the past 3 years, yes or no?

 

let’s not forget when they originally mentioned this info, they did not mention anything about the team working on the men’s side of football. In 2022, we all was under the impressions that a separate team was working on the women’s game. (People were crying about resources being taken away by the women’s game)

Edited September 10 by Mars_Blackmon

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Who said anything about other stakeholders? You posted the whst I was referring too. Is there money involved to help them offset the cost of going with a new engine and expanding thier staff, yes or no?

I don't know, you tell me?

YOU said the stakeholders and pandering:

1 hour ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

the point is, women’s football + unity is only happening because of partnership and sponsors who invested money in order for SI to have resources to start the work on unity.

1 hour ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

they are pandering to the stakeholders as i mentioned in my post.

1 hour ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Women’s football was priority #1 for the unity engines for nothing other than stakeholders.

YOU mentioned the stakeholders and partnerships. YOU are the one making all the claims here. I'm asking you to back them up. Something? Anything? Otherwise you are either lying or trolling, and quite frankly I'm tired of both. Either back up you claims or stop posting them, your call.

[Mars_Blackmon]

23 minutes ago, XaW said:

I don't know, you tell me?

YOU said the stakeholders and pandering:

YOU mentioned the stakeholders and partnerships. YOU are the one making all the claims here. I'm asking you to back them up. Something? Anything? Otherwise you are either lying or trolling, and quite frankly I'm tired of both. Either back up you claims or stop posting them, your call.

I’m reading what was said in the article..

 

Quote

To help offset some of those costs we have already started conversations with some potential commercial partners who share our vision and who will be able to offer financial help in return for a wide integration of their brand into FM.

You telling me to prove something that was at conversation level 3 years ago is disingenuous.

Edited September 10 by Mars_Blackmon

[ajw10]

A worrying amount of people in this thread really do not like women.

Which brings me back to my point earlier about SI's communication. Just felt like they've opened the door for more bashing of women. 

[Dbuk1]

1 minute ago, ajw10 said:

A worrying amount of people in this thread really do not like women.

Which brings me back to my point earlier about SI's communication. Just felt like they've opened the door for more bashing of women. 

What are you talking about?

[ajw10]

1 minute ago, Dbuk1 said:

What are you talking about?

pretty obvious isn't it? I mentioned before that the timing of the announcement and how they delivered it re-opened the door for those the moan about women's football being added.

The weight part in particular was so careless.

[Mars_Blackmon]

51 minutes ago, jmlima said:

I mean, if they are stakeholders because they are sponsors then I would point (for example) that SI is the sponsor of AFC, not AFC the sponsor of SI. And, shock and horror, they also sponsor the man's team.

https://www.afcwimbledon.co.uk/news/2024/september/10/lee-brown-to-return-as-special-guest-on-saturday/

Is this not trolling? I’m not even talking about this sponsorship 

[jcw163]

8 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

A worrying amount of people in this thread really do not like women.

Which brings me back to my point earlier about SI's communication. Just felt like they've opened the door for more bashing of women. 

The weight thing especially felt like a way of going "right, all the mad bastards will kick off about this, and nobody will notice anything else", v cynical I agree

[themadsheep2001]

5 minutes ago, jcw163 said:

The weight thing especially felt like a way of going "right, all the mad bastards will kick off about this, and nobody will notice anything else", v cynical I agree

Don't think it was deliberate, do think it was very clumsy language and timing though 

[Dbuk1]

1 minute ago, ajw10 said:

pretty obvious isn't it? I mentioned before that the timing of the announcement and how they delivered it re-opened the door for those the moan about women's football being added.

The weight part in particular was so careless.

My mistake I thought you said people didn’t like woman. The general thread is most people want or don’t care either way about adding woman’s football. The issue is the delay to features….as woman’s football addition seems to be the priority. Nothing against woman at all. The people complaining would prefer the other features to the addition of woman’s football, nothing more. The weight thing is pathetic either way, but I would have included it even if somebody’s weight fluctuates or not…e.g R9 at the 2006 World Cup 😂. 

[ajw10]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Don't think it was deliberate, do think it was very clumsy language and timing though 

yeah this, either they just don't care or they underestimated how regressive a portion of this community is

[ajw10]

2 minutes ago, Dbuk1 said:

My mistake I thought you said people didn’t like woman. The general thread is most people want or don’t care either way about adding woman’s football. The issue is the delay to features….as woman’s football addition seems to be the priority. Nothing against woman at all. The people complaining would prefer the other features to the addition of woman’s football, nothing more. The weight thing is pathetic either way, but I would have included it even if somebody’s weight fluctuates or not…e.g R9 at the 2006 World Cup 😂. 

no, there are a few posting about it that clearly have an issue with women being in this game, which leads me to believe that they have an issue with women.

[Dbuk1]

Just now, ajw10 said:

no, there are a few posting about it that clearly have an issue with women being in this game, which leads me to believe that they have an issue with women.

Maybe I missed them posts or they have been removed.

[Fat_Frank8]

34 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

A worrying amount of people in this thread really do not like women.

Which brings me back to my point earlier about SI's communication. Just felt like they've opened the door for more bashing of women. 

A worrying amount of people don’t understand the difference between not being interested in womens football and not liking women. 

[eXistenZ]

I personally dont care about womens football or the weight thing, but if the argument is "we feel we can delete international management because only 5% plays it", I really wonder if there has been some market research done in what percentage would actually play with the women teams. Most fm players i speak to say they probably wont.

[Petra90]

28 minutes ago, eXistenZ said:

I personally dont care about womens football or the weight thing, but if the argument is "we feel we can delete international management because only 5% plays it", I really wonder if there has been some market research done in what percentage would actually play with the women teams. Most fm players i speak to say they probably wont.

The percentage of players for removing something is a factor, but not the only factor. There are several lower-level leagues such as the Indian, Indonesian or South Africa that likely less than 5% of players play and they will still remain in the game.

[angelo994]

3 hours ago, XaW said:

Ok, I take it you are not familiar with how software development works, so I'm going to guess how SI have gotten here from my own experience with similar issues. NOTE: I do not work for SI, I don't know how thing work at SI, or if I'm correct, but I think your post is an example of not understanding, so I'm trying to correct that view.

If SI started working on Unity for example 3 years ago, and they also knew they wanted women's football in. It makes sense for them to combine these two things, while leaving the men's football as well as international fotball on the old engine. So they have had 3 years to create women's football and that could be about done after possibly finding a lot of pitfalls and getting experience with the engine. Now, a year ago they really started to push over men's football too and probably found new issues in porting older, but could possibly use the experience from adding women's football to make it easier. However, they might have found more issues porting functions from the older engine into Unity, and thus that part now takes a lot more time. And then they also have international football, which they might consider the smallest part, but that now must be pushed back to focus on the men's football.

So from this, it's not women's football vs international fotball, but rather men's football vs international football because they are just about done on women's football and doing QA and bugfixes and tweaks rather than full move. And SI now see they won't reach moving both men's and international football, and if it's impossible to keep the old engine just for international football, then the men's football will go first.

Now, I don't know if this is the case or not, but it seems likely I'm not too far off the mark, as that's how I would have done it if I were part of the team who would move a major part of my software to a new framework. I would use the time to get to know the new framework by creating the new feature in there directly, and when the team is more experienced in the new framework, I would expect moving older code to be easier than to do the opposite. It would also make sense to have the backend devs do a lot of backend work before the frontend devs do their thing after the designers have mockups.

As I said, I might be way off how SI does things, but I think it's important to not jump to "women's football is added at the cost of international football" because we don't know, and we don't have any basis for saying that other than wild guesses. And I get it, people who like international football are disappointed it's gone, but at the same time, SI have said it will return as part of the base game in FM26 all new. So if you love that part, you have the option to skip FM25 and return for FM26 if you wish and then get a much better experience than you have currently.

I don’t get your thinking here. You make it sound like woman’s football is a totally different game from men’s. It’s just another league to play in. You’re acting like it’s a completely different universe. 

[grade]

What I find quite curious is... It wasn't Women's football that is forcing SI to take out International Football... It is the shift of the game to Unity, that is delaying. A change long overdue, with or without Women's football.

I mean among the key features of Women's football is International Football... so part of Women's football will not be playable on FM25.

[Mars_Blackmon]

1 hour ago, grade said:

What I find quite curious is... It wasn't Women's football that is forcing SI to take out International Football... It is the shift of the game to Unity, that is delaying. A change long overdue, with or without Women's football.

I mean among the key features of Women's football is International Football... so part of Women's football will not be playable on FM25.

Quote

Whenever I mention women’s football on social media, people inevitably respond by asking when we’re going to release a women’s football version of Football Manager. Up until now, I’ve always replied with vague answers such as “When we do it, we’ll do it properly”.

Quote

At this stage we don’t know exactly how long the process will take so we can’t say exactly which version of FM will see women’s football make its debut, but rest assured that our plan is to make this happen as soon as we possibly can, whilst ensuring that you are still getting all the features you’d expect from new versions of FM by adding resources to the existing team.

 

Edited September 10 by Mars_Blackmon

[G81]

I can't be alone in being disappointed that fm mobile appears to be the 'ginger haired stepchild' of the 2025 series, given from what I've read it's another basic update with none of the upgrades the other formats are seeing?