davehanson
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Posts posted by davehanson
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12 hours ago, JordanMillward_1 said:
There are lots of people "hacked off" here, as you say. However, I would suggest that even if everyone who posted here saying they won't pre-order FM21 don't, it won't make a significant difference in pre-order sales. I'd wager over 90% of people pre-order for the beta period to help with bug reports and the like (like you said), but just to get to play the game 2-3 weeks earlier.
Also, as Miles has said, over a million people have bought the game, there's usually 65-75,000 people playing it at any one time, and usually 150,000 plus people play it each day. Compare that even to everyone who is registered on the forum, and the forum quickly becomes a drop in the bucket.
I respect people saying they won't pre-order until they see if a game is decent, I do that too (except, ironically, for FM). If people honestly don't trust the game to be how they want it to be from launch, and aren't willing to play it unless it meets their expectations, they're entirely within their rights to not pre-order. I do, however, fully believe that SI are always working as hard as they're able to in order to make the best game they can, given the size of their studio compared to many games developers, and that if fixes are taking time to be released, it's not because they can't be bothered or don't care, but because they're trying to make sure that any fixes they release, given the sheer number of variables in the Match Engine, don't then go on to break other things.
If I didn't think they cared about the game they make, I wouldn't have agreed to become a mod for them when recently asked to be one, and I wouldn't still be buying and playing FM - I'd have decided the game and SI were no longer worth my time and money, and moved onto things that I enjoy, rather than spending my limited free time angry about it.
This is a really good post. I personally won't be pre-ordering FM next year for the first time I can remember. Do I expect it will have any effect on SI? No I don't.
I don't really think the argument that they are a small studio compared to others holds weight though. What I mean by that is that SI/Sega (I don't want to assume who takes what of the profits) make a lot of money every single year. Miles said the other day that sales had just surpassed 1m copies. If you said an 'average' copy was £30 then that is £30m. SI employee about 130 people. So there is a lot of money that could possibly be used to employee more people to make the game better and fix it quicker. Let me say that companies need to make profit, SI and Sega are no different.
I just hope that they do take on board the feelings of the community in general. Although you say the forum is a drop in the bucket I would argue that these people are the more dedicated players. They are the ones that in 9 months time are still playing (or perhaps not playing in this years edition) the game, whereas the casual gamer has just gone onto something else. For instance the only 2 PC games I ever played were FM and Total War. Because of how I see the game, and specifically the ME this year, I have taken out the Origin game pass and bought a few games over Christmas like The Divison 2, Witcher 3 & Beyond 2 Souls. I would never have played these before this years version of FM.
I have a mate who runs a pub. It is a little side street pub, not a big chain high street type. He forked out nearly £1000 in December just to have the ability to show the football games from Amazon. I forget exactly what he told me his Sky Sports was a month, but it was something like £500 a month, plus any box office events (the Joshua fight was £400) and BT Sport. I asked him over Christmas why he bothered with the Amazon one as there is no way he could have made £1000 back in extra sales. He said because if he didn't someone else would and his customers would go there and he would never get them back.
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1 hour ago, anagain said:
Why assume I have inner knowledge? You don't need inner knowledge to understand the difference between a release date notification and the lack of notification of a patch being available. Anyone who follows gaming should know how things work. You didn't ask SI, you asked the forum.
I gave you an answer to your question that I believe SI would be likely to give, in my experience of following a lot of games for a lot of years. Your reply was that you wanted SI to answer it. I wasn't sarcastic, but I told you again that you should believe what I said. You then implied that SI were happy to release an inferior product. No developer does that, or at least no reputable developer. If anyone's words were sarcastic they were yours when you told me my words to you had clarified your view that they happily released a broken product. You are trying to be a wise guy in turning my explanation around. I never clarified anything.
Wind my neck in? You just need to realise how game development works.
Bugs happen. No developer wants it, but they happen. Fixing them is not always a straightforward process. I am sure that SI are as disappointed with things as the players of this fine game are. People just need to have some patience and let them do their job of making things better. SI are not delivering a flawed product in any way on purpose, and they won't be happy with it.
I quoted and asked an SI QA staff. But okay, I see where the issue is now.
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2 minutes ago, KUBI said:
There is no news about a date for an update in that thread. Please do not spread misleading information.
What he is trying to highlight is he specifically asked if a patch would be released before March and SI said they were unsure.
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2 hours ago, anagain said:
Well SI will work with the publisher to agree somewhat on a release date, and there will be some understanding of whether the game will be ready. Saying that, publishers will want a specific release date in advance. It's a much discussed area within gaming, with some publishers being judged harsher than others. I'm sure there is a good working relationship between Sega and SI, but as the game has released early November for many years then there will likely be an ssumption and agreement with Sega that that date will be targeted.
I believe you are trying to make it look like SI are intentionally releasing a defective product on to the market, but I believe that couldn't be further from the truth. As I said games development will never be perfect, and bugs will appear in a release version that have been hard to spot in development or even beta. This particular issue seemed to pop up after the start of beta. SI will have the exact timeline, but all this pallaver on the forums was not around at the start of beta.
You have to understand how coding of the match engine in this game works. Announcing a date for a patch and annoucing the release date of a game are two very different prospects. Fixing the match engine is not just a case of pushing a few buttons or tweaking a slider. The fact that this issue has even popped up after the start of beta is testament to that.
Stop trying to be a wise guy and understand how the development process and the fixing of bugs actually works before you dig for reasons to implicate SI in some sort of treasonous release of the game.
Wise guy? Perhaps you want to watch how you respond to people. I have not insulted you in any way so please don't do it to me. There is no reason to resort to personal insults.
I asked an SI employee what the difference was between releasing a date one month in advance of the game releasing and how that differed from telling people, or at least giving some indication, when they anticipated the patch would be available. You decided to reply, so I am I to assume you have an inner knowledge? I didn't imply anything until you made a sarcastic reply about you following the game for a long time.
Perhaps wind your neck in and let people ask the questions they want before jumping down their throat.
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5 minutes ago, anagain said:
Why? Because you don't want to accept that the answer is as is it is? I've followed gaming a long time and that is how it works. Publishers will have a big say in the release date of a game, even so far as to say it will release on a certain date. That release date can be given many weeks in advance.
Game development is not an exact science. Coding of the FM match engine is not a situation that can be given an exact date.
Because if what you are saying is true and the publishers effectively set the release date then what you are saying is that SI will release on that date no matter the state of the game. As long as it actually loads up then it is going to get released.
And that is exactly what seems has happened this year, but thanks for clarifying it...........
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38 minutes ago, anagain said:
Because the release date is a completely different situation to a patch. The release date has a great deal of input from the publisher. Patches, and changes to the game after release, are entirely down to the development team.
Thanks, would like someone from SI to answer though.
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1 hour ago, Lucas said:
Cut the speculation and word twisting please. There is no date yet for an update and suggestions otherwise is pure speculation.
We don't make announcements when they will be due to the nature of software development. It'll be ready and out when it's ready, and only then will there for sure be an announcement.
The only thing I don't understand with this, and I don't understand software development so excuse my ignorance, is that
QuoteIt gives us great pleasure to reveal that Football Manager 2020 will launch both digitally and physically for PC and Mac on November 19th
That was announced on 14th October 2019. A month before the game is released you know it will be ready? Yet you have no idea when a patch to make the game playable will be ready?
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2 hours ago, davehanson said:
Back to the original point of away to the bigger sides - any ideas? Also any ideas specifically regarding the 3-5-2 formations? I really struggle against those. I beat Man Utd 3-2 away yet lose 2-0 to a Brighton side playing 3-5-2. I just can't work out how to counter it. I try playing wider as I feel I can exploit them on the wings and get in behind their wing-backs but just get beat pretty much everytime.
Thanks, any ideas on this?
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8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:
I fear it has more to do with a low (insufficient) level of vertical compactness coupled with poor defensive abilities of your entire midfield.
But then you don't play with a bottom-heavy formation. If you want the Prevent short GKD to work properly and make more sense, go with a system that employs at least 3 players up front (e.g. 4123, 4231, 424). Although you obviously don't have the right players for the CM positions in a 4231 or 424.
What do you mean by low level of vertical compactness?
Fair comment re the Prevent short GKD. I do have a 4231 system and a funny/obscure 4-3-3 system that I use it in. Guess because I have 3 players forward in that system it would work better.
Back to the original point of away to the bigger sides - any ideas? Also any ideas specifically regarding the 3-5-2 formations? I really struggle against those. I beat Man Utd 3-2 away yet lose 2-0 to a Brighton side playing 3-5-2. I just can't work out how to counter it. I try playing wider as I feel I can exploit them on the wings and get in behind their wing-backs but just get beat pretty much everytime.
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Bottom heavy as otherwise the midfield players in the opposition get far too much time on the ball to launch a long ball over the top.
I use dribble less because otherwise my wide players (ML/MR & DL/DR) run blindly up the wing, stop before crossing and then lose the ball. Running less with it stops them from making blind runs.
The thought with prevent short GKD was that I don't want the opposition to have easy free passes. I want to be able to contest them.
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Morning all,
Looking for some advice regarding the below tactic:
The only Individual PI is on the B2B which is get further forward.
I am doing okay with the tactic. I used it for Ajax during the first season, produced some good results. Won the Dutch league and got through to the quarter finals of the CL. Got offered the Man City job which I couldn't turn down. I have struggled this year against the big teams away, lost to Arsenal 3-2. So would like to know what I can adjust for those games. Also really struggle against three at the back, like this:
I tried to play wider as my thoughts are that this Wolves formation is strong through the centre and weaker down the wings, so altered the Team instructions to: Attacking Width - Wide. I also changed the IW(A) to Winger (A). It did help a little I think, but still got beat to Wolves.
I did originally have the forward as a F9. This worked very well with Ajax, Tadic did an amazing job in that role, but wasn't working at City. Changed it to a CF(S) and Aguero (and Jesus) have been much better.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
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I don't agree with Dagenham Dave with regards to the ME but it is his opinion and he is just as entitled to have it as anyone who leaves negative feedback, so people shouldn't bash him for it. My only wish is he would share his save or show some PKM's but he doesn't want to so have to respect that.
I do agree with you on the development centre DD. It was the one area I wasn't particularly looking forward to but am happy to be proved wrong, it is excellent. As is the club vision and the playing time pathway.
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6 minutes ago, Os said:
I think this thread should be closed now.
The game is out some are happy, some are not.
I think this thread attracts mainly the not happy and therefore presents a distorted view of the game.
Until a new patch is released.
This thread should be closed.
That is probably the worse thing SI could possibly do at the moment.
However it was handled people would just believe that it was being shut as they didn't want to hear negative feedback.
This is a feedback thread, people are feeding their thoughts back. If you dont want to read it then dont come in here.
I don't think it represents a distorted view at all. Go to the discussions on Steam itself. Every other discussion is negative about the game, the match engine more than anything.
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Yeah, got to say I have now stopped too until there is another patch. The game just isn't fun. It isn't just the obvious bugs (laser guided long balls and 1v1's) but it doesn't seem to matter what instructions you set your players they just do as they want.
PPM's and PI's seem to make no difference. The games are all repetitive and as someone else said I can tell almost exactly what is going to happen. It's a shame, have put about 270 hours into this so far, but I just can't enjoy it. Hopefully a patch or two will sort it out but got to be honest and say I am not hopeful at this point that SI can rescue this.
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For all my criticism of the game, FM20 for me. Put in a little over 300 hours on it so far.
Finished work at 10pm tonight for Christmas so would expect to see that rise to around 500 hours by the new year.
Now, if they will only fix a few things.............
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1 hour ago, Neil Brock said:
All we ever ask is that people are going to criticize the game, to do so constructively. We're not offended by negative feedback, but we won't tolerate comments that take direct pops at the development team. This forum was created specifically to allow people to discuss our game in a way that allows for debate and conversation. It's got harder over the years to expect the development team to engage with users on the forums when they were spending an inordinate amount of time defending themselves and the company against criticism when all they were ever trying to do was create the best version of FM possible.
We put everything we can into making this game the best we can every year. But we are a company and of course we're run for profit. If we spend more money than we earn every year there would be no more Football Manager. So we have to balance the books in terms of development in order to make sure we're sustainable long term. We never ‘take the money and run’ - we communicate directly with the community of this game, be it here or via social media every day of the year. We release numerous updates of the game trying our best to improve it with each one. If someone wants to come out with a football management game better than this good luck to them - we're all still fans of the game so if someone can do better than us, we'll likely all end up playing it!
We get the people just want the game to be the best it can be and we want that too.
Neil, I am sure many are like me, and do appreciate the time and effort that the whole of SI put into developing this game. I also appreciate the time you have taken to post here, thanks. I guess like many we all just want the best for FM. For many of us it has been around for as long as we can remember. Hell, I have probably spent more time with FM/CM than I have my wife!
I would like to ask you a direct question if I may. What do you see as the problems with FM at the moment? What are you/the team not happy with? Where do you think we will end up with the ME in FM20, can you honestly see the team rectifying the issues that have been discussed in this thread?
Sorry, that was like 3 questions, but only short ones! Thanks.
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11 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:
You won't learn anything from someone else's save. It'll be a different team, a different league, different players, different circumstances, different opposition, etc etc.
Oh, and I don't 'argue strongly' for the ME. I just give my thoughts on the game. What I will do, however, is question whether something perceived to be bugged is actually a tactical issue. It isn't always of course, but it will be more often than people are willing to admit.
Yet you are not seeing the issues that most people in this thread are? Would that be a fair comment? If so it must imply, regardless of leagues/opposition etc that you are doing something fundamentally different to most people. SO your save would be valuable. Just as they are to the developers when people are reporting bugs. But, it is your choice.
And you do argue strongly for the game. They may just be your thoughts, but never the less they are strongly argued for the game. I disagree that the majority of what we are seeing is tactical related, far too many people are reporting the same things for them to be tactical. And, from personal experience, the balls over the top and 1v1's you just can't stop, it really doesn't matter what you do. If you can prove otherwise please feel free to...…………..
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30 minutes ago, haffaz77 said:
Maybe not everyone . But scroll up , and u will see an example of someone who says he goes back to FM 19 cuz of the ME but posted about FM 19 the same thing .
Regarding to 1v1s ...
You are cherry picking things to try and prove your argument. He criticised the ME when it was first out in FM19. Now, I don't know him, but as he has gone back to it one can assume that he became happier with it as the build got updated. Let's all hope the same thing happens with FM20.
However, the goals you have highlighted are part of the issue I was talking about. Long balls over the top, defenders not reacting until it is far too late. I never said 1v1's were not scored. They are created, as you have highlighted, by balls over the top far too often. And they are missed far too often.
I asked Dagenham Dave about a week ago, as he argues strongly for the ME, and I won't criticise him for that - if he is enjoying it and likes it then fair play, for some PKM's of his 1v1's to see what we could learn. Why don't you upload a save to show how you have been playing etc? Perhaps you are on to something that many of us are not?
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- Popular Post
19 minutes ago, haffaz77 said:Another Proof that people are just here to bitch about the Game. I enjoy it very much atm . A lot of things are connected to tactics . People Managing Lower League Teams and downloading Tactics created with a Top League Team . Then they are wondering why its not working lol. I have to agree with @Neil Brock that it's the "closest representation to real life football available in a game or simulation" . Yes ... there are a few issues with it .. But what the Hell ? It's gonna be fixed. Til then ... chill out and play the Game.
Funny btw .
Yeah that's right. Everyone is definitely here to bitch about the game. The same old line gets trotted out again and again, 'it's your tactics'. Have you not bothered to read anything that has gone before it? Many people, including me are having success. However, that success is marred with a poor ME that doesn't accurately reflect what the user wants to happen.
I can win, but it isnt how I want to win. I want to win games with variety, not seeing long ball over the top all the time. Not missed 1v1 all the time.
But, you are happy and everyone else is bitching so we can just leave it at that.
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Not sure how to embed videos, and not too sure what to say about this! If anyone wants to try explaining it please feel free to do so.
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- Popular Post
13 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:I'd hope SI would pick it up but there's no reports on it
I have said it before, the biggest issue is the lack of information coming out of SI. People on here are getting very worked up, and I would say almost understandably so. People have a lot of passion for this game and everyone wants it to be the best it can be. But, as I said the other day, I honestly don't know what and when SI are working on. Are they looking at the long balls? Are they looking at 1v1's? Are they looking at 'passive' defenders?
Given the history I can understand why SI don't want to join in a discussion on this, but I would have thought a sticky at the top of the page simply stating: these are the issues that we are working on, we hope to be in a position to fix them soon. It would stop a lot of the bad feeling I think.
At the moment the only comment I can see from SI is that they are 'generally happy with the ME', looking at some small issues. That doesn't fill me with confidence.
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19 minutes ago, diddydaddydoddy said:
Having read all this thread, I sympathise with people's frustrations with the ME - it certainly has a few issues. There are some seriously OTT reactions though and there must be a number of under 10's playing the game going by some of the posts too.
I've played the game since CM days and with every iteration the game has had imperfections, the ME included. The complexity of the game increases yearly and the fact its is a simulation of football, it will never be perfect.
My experience with FM20 and the ME is positive though. With 1 v 1's, I average a goal around every 1 in 3.5 chances. I do get a few balls over the top from my CBs but not excessive and there are occasions where my IF/IW's just go for goal. BUT I play as Liverpool, so I have Mane/Salah scoring the number of goals you'd expect in a season. I'm happy that VVD passes direct on occasions that's what happens in real life. I have CM's contributing to through balls and the attacking phase too. So maybe my / Liverpool tactics are best suited to the ME - a gegenpressing variation with high line, attacking 4123.
I have seen great animation - rabona's, overhead kicks, wonderfully executed through balls, whipped crosses, sliding tackles. But I have frustratingly also seen Matip score a hat trick of headers from corners in one game, slightly too many crosses being blocked and Firmino scoring too many goals (just started playing him as a Pressing Forward on defensive mode - which makes his goal output more realistic now).
Bottom line the game has never been, and never will be, perfect. So be more realistic with expectation and utilise the Beta option before forking out next time. The ME is not unplayable - FACT, it is a lot harder to play the game though for sure. So use these forums to constructively give your feedback, that's what they are there for.
Sorry, disagree with everything you have said, more or less.
I am old enough to also have played every single game from the first CM on the Amiga to now. The ME now is as bad as I can remember. You can't utlisie the Beta until you buy the game, it isn't possible, so that is just factually incorrect.
I am having success, top of the league and winning most games. However, some of the things that happen in game are just ridiculous. Long balls over the top, despite setting the DL at low, must happen 5 or 6 times a match. It doesn't just happen to me, I do it to the AI too. Fortunately though the 1v1's are very rarely scored from so it keeps the scores down.
Shooting from the IF's or the Wing-backs from stupid angles is still there despite players being in open space to pass to. Wingers stopping before crossing the ball and then proceeding to smash the ball into opposition shins.
The game isn't harder, the ME is just more broke which means we have to figure ways around it. It isn't enjoyable to be forced to play one way. People have given constructive feedback but when they feel they are not listen to what do you think will happen? They upload PKM's and saved games. As I said yesterday, I have no idea what SI are looking into and what they are not. As far as I can tell, in their words, they are generally happy with the ME.
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2 minutes ago, Svenc said:
Defender (player) reaction to long/lose balls seems one of the major factors in guys being unleashed behind the lines this easily. You see this on all kind of levels tho. In particular if the defenders have to turn as they were facing in the direction of the ball before -- their turn can tage what feels ages on the occasion. Which is likely also why SI won't just release a hot fix. Generally tuning player reaction/turning likely will create all kind of knock-ons all over the pitch, rather than just improving the defending of long balls.
I have no issue at all with SI taking their time to ensure that whatever they do makes the game better not worse.
However, it isn't communicated. At all. Why not just put a post up here, twitter wherever stating that these are the issues and they are doing something about them? Doesn't have to be an open thread can be locked.
And, why on earth where these not seen before the beta even came out?
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19 minutes ago, Mikke said:
You need to get a better defender, because in my game even Welsh amateur defenders don't do that.
Better defenders do not help. So far I have started with Liverpool, Chelsea, Man Utd and Spurs. In relative terms they are all good teams with good defenders. During the game when a long ball over the top is played, I would estimate, 90% of the time the striker reacts first and the defender then can't catch him.
This isn't just limited to the user though. The AI's defender also reacts this way. Which then results in dozens of 1v1's.
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Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread
in Football Manager General Discussion
Posted · Edited by davehanson
Yes you are correct. However, by now, I would expect the game to be enjoyable and to me playable. I don't mean that it is broken as others have said. It is to me not playable because there are too many errors in the ME which is the fundamental part of the game. If it was just polishing at this stage it would be fine, but in my opinion it is far more than that.
It is their business how and when they do stuff, but just going back to my post above, I won't pre-order. As I said will it make a difference to SI - again as I said no it will not. But if people all of a sudden thought bugger it I won't buy until March when the game is enjoyable and 'polished' they, SI, could find themselves in a tricky position.
Communication is shocking. Always has been. A month on nearly from Neil's post that they know the community has seen issues and they are on their radar and still we don't know anything more. If I send a job to one of my customers that they are not then happy with there is no way I could leave it a month before I talk to them again.