Football Manager 2020 Feedback Thread

[XaW]

While this is an issue they should fix, and quite soon, I really don't see this as a crisis as many people in here do.

For younger players, it's not that hard to mentor/tutor up the personality attributes to a good level, and for older players with unset stats... are that really that much of an impact for most players? With newgens not being affected as well, young talents will be available anyway. And the issue is the same for users and AI managers alike.

I mean, I can see this being annoying if you want to take that exact player and mold him, but some mentoring should handle it quite well. Demanding ETA's or acting like the bathroom is on fire is kind of overreacting to me.

[Chris21]

I presume the attributes bug doesn’t affect games already started on the beta?

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, wicksyFM said:

Not everyone reads the forums. Football Managers twitter account has nearly 300k followers. Thats a big reach, and people deserve to know before potentially wasting time. Personally im not bothered. Im working the rest of the week. I can wait

Let SI decide for themselves how to run their company. What we're interested in this thread is feedback on the game. 

[ImDaWeasel]

1 minute ago, Chris21 said:

I presume the attributes bug doesn’t affect games already started on the beta?

Depends what stage of the beta you started at. Early releases of the beta didnt have it. Just came into the db a week or so ago.

[redders1977]

Not sure your average FM player will notice the determination bug. Personally find it difficult to develop youth anyway but maybe that's down to my club's poor youth set up 

[ImDaWeasel]

8 minutes ago, amberhelix said:

Generated staff feedback:

The new roles Technical Director and Loan Manager generate masses of young staff at the start of a career that are 5x better stat-wise across the board than a Guardiola or Klopp. A flood of football geniuses. They're unemployed, all in their 40s, and despite being the greatest coaches or ass men in the history of FM and football they will not accept a job other than the prescribed new role. Also affects young HOYDs. 

Colombia generates 20-30 of the greatest medical staff ever seen at the start of a career too. All on peanuts wages and available. 19 physio 19 sports science every one. But just Colombia for some reason. 

Wondered why a bunch of 5 star staff came up on my search. All newgens. If your a lower league manager then they'll be no complaints.

[ImDaWeasel]

3 minutes ago, redders1977 said:

Not sure your average FM player will notice the determination bug. Personally find it difficult to develop youth anyway but maybe that's down to my club's poor youth set up 

Not just youth, it's any player that hasn't had his attributes, hidden or viewable, set by the database. Affects pretty much every level of the game.

[amberhelix]

1 minute ago, ImDaWeasel said:

Wondered why a bunch of 5 star staff came up on my search. All newgens. If your a lower league manager then they'll be no complaints

If you're a lower league manager you're not signing these monsters. These crazy loan managers and tech directors want £25k a week. 

[Connor]

15 minutes ago, forameuss said:

I didn't misinterpret anything.  There is no timescale for expected resolution, at least not a public one, and there never will be.  If they gave one, and it slipped, they'd look stupid, hence why you never give one.  Trust me, I deal with this every day.  And I also deal with the people who are desperate to get on a call while you're trying to fix something, to constantly ask you when it's going to be fixed, and distract you from, you know, actually fixing it.  It doesn't matter how long you've been a customer for.

You think my tone's poor, go report the post and see how you go.  Otherwise, try a thicker skin.

Your missing the point entirely, perception is king for customer retention. My concern is that it could be seen as not being transparent on social media to loyal customers, when they are still plugging the game and saying start careers etc

in addition a thicker skin is not required and saying stuff like that, isn't helpful (and to be honest just comes across like you can't stand being challenged politely. I know it can be frustrating everyone complaining, but you need to differentiate your tone, between those people shouting without being constructive and someone who has been a fan for many years of SI and is offering a constructive suggestion)

Unfortunately, your tone could prevent some people from voicing their opinion, which we don't want and nor do SI

Edited November 19, 2019 by Connor
additional info added

[redders1977]

3 minutes ago, steviemay17 said:

c'mon everyone, lets feedback on the game - but only if you if have something good to say

Seeing a nice variation of goals. The shooting from tight angles still drives me mad but I like the match engine in general

By the way my team Wednesday sold Michail Antonio to fund a deal for Stevie May in real life a few years back... The mind boggles !!

[martplfc1]

1 hour ago, hazzabish said:

'Whingers' are vital to make the game better.

Wrong. Here, whingers are often (rightly) ignored and their posts deleted/threads locked. Those who provide constructive feedback are vital to make the game better.

[cregan]

5 minutes ago, XaW said:

While this is an issue they should fix, and quite soon, I really don't see this as a crisis as many people in here do.

For younger players, it's not that hard to mentor/tutor up the personality attributes to a good level, and for older players with unset stats... are that really that much of an impact for most players? With newgens not being affected as well, young talents will be available anyway. And the issue is the same for users and AI managers alike.

I mean, I can see this being annoying if you want to take that exact player and mold him, but some mentoring should handle it quite well. Demanding ETA's or acting like the bathroom is on fire is kind of overreacting to me.

Some leagues, particularly lower/poorer leagues, are made up predominantly of players below the age of 23 with unset attributes in the database. If you're playing a team in one of those leagues, everyone is affected and you don't have anyone - and may not be able to get anyone - to mentor the 90% of your team with their personality attributes set to minimum.

So while it might not affect highly-researched, higher-tier leagues, that's not the case elsewhere, and "elsewhere" represents a very large chunk of the available playable league structure.

[Neil Brock]

Our aim is to absolutely get this issue addressed today, but as we've said on a couple of occasions, it's very much dependent on our tests. We don't want to rush out something which isn't ready. 

[ImDaWeasel]

1 minute ago, amberhelix said:

If you're a lower league manager you're not signing these monsters. These crazy loan managers and tech directors want £25k a week. 

Ah so the pay packet matches the stats, haven't tried to sign any of them so wouldn't know. At least that makes a little sense, still shouldn't be happening.

[redders1977]

3 minutes ago, ImDaWeasel said:

Not just youth, it's any player that hasn't had his attributes, hidden or viewable, set by the database. Affects pretty much every level of the game.

I'll check it out but enjoying the game so far 

[Mr U Rosler]

1 minute ago, Neil Brock said:

Our aim is to absolutely get this issue addressed today, but as we've said on a couple of occasions, it's very much dependent on our tests. We don't want to rush out something which isn't ready. 

Can't ask for any more than that.

Thank you.

 

[XaW]

1 minute ago, cregan said:

Some leagues, particularly lower/poorer leagues, are made up predominantly of players below the age of 23 with unset attributes in the database. If you're playing a team in one of those leagues, everyone is affected and you don't have anyone - and may not be able to get anyone - to mentor the 90% of your team with their personality attributes set to minimum.

So while it might not affect highly-researched, higher-tier leagues, that's not the case elsewhere, and "elsewhere" represents a very large chunk of the available playable league structure.

Of course, and that's why I wrote I think it should be fixed quite soon. However, the game is not "ruined" or "unplayable" or any of the other worse descriptions I've read here. The AI have the exact same issues as the user, in fact the user will have a slight advantage by knowing this and perhaps focusing on newgens or scouting better (to establish if the current player is affected) to compensate.

[ImDaWeasel]

2 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

Our aim is to absolutely get this issue addressed today, but as we've said on a couple of occasions, it's very much dependent on our tests. We don't want to rush out something which isn't ready. 

Good to hear, now get them devs on it! 👍

[forameuss]

3 minutes ago, Connor said:

Your missing the point entirely, perception is king for customer retention. My concern is that it could be seen as not being transparent on social media to loyal customers, when they are still plugging the game and saying start careers etc

in addition a thicker skin is not required and saying stuff like that, isn't helpful (and to be honest just comes across like you can't stand being challenged politely. I know it can be frustrating everyone complaining, but you need to differentiate your tone, between those people shouting without being constructive and someone who has been a fan for many years of SI)

Unfortunately, your tone could prevent some people from voicing their opinion, which we don't want and nor do SI

I'm not missing any point.  You want updates and ETAs.  I explained why that is either pointless or just not possible.  Explained it from a position of actually knowing what I'm talking about too, from being in that very position.  

And again, if you have any issues, feel free to report them.  Otherwise...well, what I said.

[LaytonBhoy]

Wow. 

For reasons I've already ranted about earlier, I am 90% certain I won't be buying this year's edition ... more to do with little things, quality of life issues (crowd graphics and the notorious "wear whatever strip the team is wearing and leave your other kits at home" thing, the away strips issue which has teams wearing their second kits when they don't have to, the lack - after years of banging on about it - of a "manager's trophy cabinet" and some other minor stuff, which a lot of players have asked for - the ability to CHOOSE what strips your team wears for a game would be a massive one) ... these are all modest matters.

Much worse are the apparent - and continuing - match engine lag issues which I had for three years straight and which still, apparently, persist. 

But by God, the attributes bug is a shocker ... and that it affects officials and God knows what else in the game just makes it 1000 times worse.

Quite how anyone can seriously sit down and plan a long-term save with those in the game is beyond me.

That it was released with something that monumental is scandalous.

Yes, it's a game breaker, how can it not be?

The game should never have been released with something that bad in it. 

[emil_sbn]

6 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

Our aim is to absolutely get this issue addressed today, but as we've said on a couple of occasions, it's very much dependent on our tests. We don't want to rush out something which isn't ready. 

And we have to start a new save for it to fix the issue right? 

[XaW]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

I'm not missing any point.  You want updates and ETAs.  I explained why that is either pointless or just not possible.  Explained it from a position of actually knowing what I'm talking about too, from being in that very position.  

And again, if you have any issues, feel free to report them.  Otherwise...well, what I said.

Think you might be talking to a brick wall mate. Working with similar issues, I've actually had customers said "it's fine to delay the fix as long as we are informed correctly". Of course, when I then suggested delaying the fix for a week and hold their hand and soothing them myself, that wasn't what they wanted after all...

[Major Raver]

It's the first time since CM93, that i haven't been waiting for release date to start a new career game.  Started one on Beta on day one, and still loving it 3 seasons on, 40plus leagues and over 100k of players.  Best part is its harder to win in the Premier League than usual, top teams are so good, scoring more points than they did on previous versions, both Liverpool and Man City in the high 90s last season.

 

Many thanks for the hard work

[Connor]

6 minutes ago, forameuss said:

I'm not missing any point.  You want updates and ETAs.  I explained why that is either pointless or just not possible.  Explained it from a position of actually knowing what I'm talking about too, from being in that very position.  

And again, if you have any issues, feel free to report them.  Otherwise...well, what I said.

Your position of "actually knowing" what  you are talking about, sounds like you maybe are the guy that fixes issues, rather than a user experience. 

So in this scenario you would be SI and I ( would be the user) - this a consumer situation (as post sale) and that's probably why given the issue, my experience in customer relations, would be a useful opinion to consider, as well as yours also

I don't need to report any of your posts as I can challenge your points respectfully, as like your own opinions, other opinions need to be respected also (as long as they are made in a constructive way)

Edited November 19, 2019 by Connor
additional info added

[luka_zg]

Liverpool had 56 games unbeaten run in the league in my save. I don't think I've ever seen AI manager doing that well before.

[forameuss]

3 minutes ago, XaW said:

Think you might be talking to a brick wall mate. Working with similar issues, I've actually had customers said "it's fine to delay the fix as long as we are informed correctly". Of course, when I then suggested delaying the fix for a week and hold their hand and soothing them myself, that wasn't what they wanted after all...

As I mentioned in a previous post, I hold a burning hatred for the sorts of issues which lead people to start up bridges, which consist of a thousand people going over the issue in punishing detail and achieving nothing, other than delaying people from actually looking at fixing the issue.  Them saying they're fixing it is basically all you need to know.  And that will be the status until it is fixed.  If I'm in that position, that's my line, because giving any kind of extra interim update is suicide.  I could have a fix ready to go that fixes the issue, and it seems ok, then testing shows that I've broken something else.  So you have to go back to square 1.5, when you've said you're over at square 4.  

It's obviously frustrating for people.  This absolutely shouldn't have happened, but you'd be hard-pressed to find an SI employee that didn't agree with that.  But it did happen.  And it will be fixed, clearly as a priority.  Perspective's needed.

  

1 minute ago, Connor said:

Your position of "actually knowing" what  you are talking about, sounds like you maybe are the guy that fixes issues, rather than a user experience. 

So in this scenario you would be SI and I the user - would be the consumer and that's probably why given the issue, my experience in customer relations, would be a useful opinion to consider, as well as yours also

I don't need to report any of your posts as I can challenge your points respectfully, as like your own opinions, other opinions need to be respected also (as long as they are made in a constructive way)

Thanks to the wonders of trying to get one person to do the job of many, I do have to both sides.  I have to work to fix the issues, and I have to deal with the users.  Plus I'm not talking about anything on the customer relations side, purely from the technical side.  I can see what you're saying, and from a customer side I expect people would agree, but that doesn't make it immediately possible on the technical side.  I explained why ETAs and updates - beyond what Neil has already provided - aren't going to happen, so no amount of "the customer is always right" really changes that.

Edited November 19, 2019 by forameuss

[HUNT3R]

Just to remind everyone - this thread is for feedback on the game. 

[Major Raver]

1 minute ago, luka_ said:

Liverpool had 56 games unbeaten run in the league in my save. I don't think I've ever seen AI manager doing that well before.

Its really enjoyable, top teams so much harder to beat, really adds to the realism.

[Karnack]

Just started my 4th season as Liverpool (save continued from Beta) and I'm enjoying it immensely. More so than any other FM and I had over 1200 hours in FM19...

Reading something about an attributes bug, not sure what the bug is but it hasn't affected my save in the least.

Best FM as far as I can remember. Great work SI!

[emil_sbn]

Just now, luka_ said:

Liverpool had 56 games unbeaten run in the league in my save. I don't think I've ever seen AI manager doing that well before.

Thats kind of realistic cause it might happen this season *fingers crossed* 😀

[Harrymcintyre]

Is there any way to just turn that ball kicking/tapping sound off, without turning the whole sound atmosphere off?  That is the only thing that irritates me a little bit. 

[Saevel]

I want to give my 2 cents, since this thread exists.

1. This launch has been disastrous. The match engine is, once again, very poorly balanced, and there are still lots of bugs and niggles. More importantly, there's a game-experience breaking (considering how most people play FM) bug that affects the Determination-attribute. Right now, there SHOULD have been a sticky at the top of the forums, informing everyone about the known issues, and when a patch can be expected (I realize, that's not easy to predict, but if there's a policy that dictates X days of testing before release, it should say "earliest next monday" or something similar).

2. I love FM, but it's disappointing to see the level of improvement from game to game, especially in key areas. This may sound overly critical, but with such a big development team, it's very disappointing (every year). Metacritic and Steam user scores are poor, and reflect this. Additionally, the developers on this forum rarely show humility and respect for the consumers when dealing with the various issues that crop up. Bugs can exist for months and years without being fixed, and the game has actually taken a step back in some areas (like faces of generated people). The game is also very poorly optimised, graphically.

All in all, love FM, looking forward to play, but disappointed (as I am every year) in both the improvements and the state of the game.

[Scotty Walds]

 

[serg__23]

Also recognized some kind of bug, when you turn on sound during game you can only hear kicking/tapping sound and sound of crowd only appears in the end of highlight. 

[Seb Wassell]

1 hour ago, hazzabish said:

For me this has always been a problem when we go into the future. Presumably newgens don't have determination set to the extent that players who start the game do, and thus you tend to get even the most talented players with lower determination that the players they replace. I might be wrong about that but that's how it has always seemed to me.

Present issue aside, the opposite has actually been the case in recent versions, especially before tutoring became mentoring.

[cregan]

1 minute ago, XaW said:

Of course, and that's why I wrote I think it should be fixed quite soon. However, the game is not "ruined" or "unplayable" or any of the other worse descriptions I've read here. The AI have the exact same issues as the user, in fact the user will have a slight advantage by knowing this and perhaps focusing on newgens or scouting better (to establish if the current player is affected) to compensate.

No, it's not unplayable, but my point was equally that it is that "hard to mentor/tutor up" younger players and that mentoring can't handle it if the only players available to mentor are all also affected. Newgens don't come in until the youth intake ticks over, so even if they came in in enough numbers to replace an entire senior squad (which they won't, obviously), that doesn't affect the first-season experience. 

For illustration: I started, and quickly stopped, a Scandinavian save last night, July start, unemployed, accept the first offer that comes in. That was Linkoping, bottom of one of the bottom leagues in Sweden. Good fun start, and by no means unusual as challenging FM saves go.

The club has 17 players in total, all but two of them under 23. It has two players (neither over 23, as it happens) with Determination over 3, at a mighty 7 and 9; neither is going to be able to do any mentoring to speak of. The club's total wage budget is £225p/w so the scope for getting in senior (semi-)pros, even if there were any who aren't also Determination 1-3 (which, on searching, there aren't), is very limited. Adding a manager to browse other clubs at the same level, it's the same across the board: mostly very young players, with a smattering of near-retirement oldies and a few journeymen, almost all attributes probably unset in the database because of the level they're at, and almost all of them with minimum Determination (Linkoping is better than some; one of our rivals has one player on 7, the rest on 1). And there's no in-game way to change that because there are no mentors, and in any case you'd be looking to improve an entire squad rather than one or two duff youngsters.

(On top of which, the way attribute points are distributed for a player's overall ability level seems on the face of it to mean that everyone at these obscure little clubs in obscure little leagues has remarkably good scores in their other mental attributes: only one of my team of no-hopers has Decisions lower than 8 and more than half have 11+, for instance. That rival with one lone guy with Determination 7 has almost an entire team with Leadership 10+, others are wildly Aggressive.)

So I doubt it's a problem at the top end, where a raft of senior players with values set in the DB can coach up erroneously poor youngsters and cover for the bug. But outside that experience, it is. And while, yes, the AI suffers from the same problem, the user can't do anything much to get around it at that level due to the resources lower leagues have to offer.

And even if every team in the division is populated almost entirely by fragile, inconsistent, charismatic geniuses with anger management issues, as a simulation while it might be playable it's still not especially enjoyable. 

[Glenn Wakeford]

2 minutes ago, craiigman said:

Apparently a laughing gif isn't allowed even with the bolded part being completely hypocritical when the bug was known before release, but was still released.

Either way if you guys do manage to get a fix out same day, that's nothing short of incredible, fingers crossed!

On to other things, the new responsibilities screen was overwhelming at first, but I like it a lot, the auto delegate to best staff is great!

Yes it's not allowed as it's not constructive feedback, nor does it relate to the game itself. We'd like to keep the feedback thread on-topic of the game rather than reaction gifs. Thanks for your understanding.

[StevehFC]

16 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Just to remind everyone - this thread is for feedback on the game. 

Everyone is frustrated about the major issue but I've noticed posts being deleted which to me look like people give reasonable feedback. SI have to accept negative feedback. 

[Parkera]

29 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

Our aim is to absolutely get this issue addressed today, but as we've said on a couple of occasions, it's very much dependent on our tests. We don't want to rush out something which isn't ready. 

Thank you again Neil. Perhaps some sort of tweet to at least acknowledge/reassure folks will help also! 

[gibson147]

Just some general feedback so far as I've playing the Beata version since day 1, it is the first time I've ever played on the Beata version so has been very interesting to see some of the changes to the ME as I've been playing.

I'm playing as Leeds in the EFL and have just won the Championship (Brentford came second and ran us very close).

I'm playing on a Macbook Pro (2015) and had no real issues with the game itself. On the first Beata release the fan was running high even outside the match but this settled down and whilst the fan still runs high during a 3d game it always did on 2019 and I assume it is doing what it is designed to do.

• Initially the ME was producing a lot of goals with long shots (Klich was scoring on average nearly one a game) which whilst initially was thrilling became a bit silly. Looks like this was fixed in one of the updates in Beata as don't see this so often now and as a result is back to being thrilling again when it happens.
• I haven't had the multiple penalties issue yet, fingers crossed. I do see some rather soft penalties given though which I put down to useless officials rather than a bug but will keep an eye on this if it become too frequent
• I've had a couple of games where there have been a lot of yellow cards given but again I put this down to fussy officiating rather than anything sinister. Again though will keep an eye on this.
• 1v1s seems to be similar to general feedback, most are getting missed but I have seen some scored. So this might reflect real life % (particularly when playing as Leeds with Bamford up front...)
• Wingers hitting into the side netting instead of crossing, this one seems to be happening more on the latest ME in the Beata (not played full version yet) and whilst frustrating I'm not sure whether this is as much down to poor decision making by the player than an issue with the ME itself.
• A couple of blatant offside goals which stood (by the opposition) which whilst incredibly annoying I again put down to inept officaldom rather than a bug (no VAR in the Championship of course and I play with a high line and offside trap so potentially risky)
• The attribute bug on determination hasn't really impacted me so whilst it needs fixing its not a game breaker for me
• I did seem to be getting a lot of injuries to my right backs for some reason, but this could be bad luck or a conditioning thing. I do demand a lot from them...

Overall though I'm enjoying the game and feel this is the best ME for quite some time, sure it needs some tweaks and given what I've seen during the Beata journey I would expect the improvement to continue.

[Huey Lewis]

12 minutes ago, Saevel said:

I want to give my 2 cents, since this thread exists.

1. This launch has been disastrous. The match engine is, once again, very poorly balanced, and there are still lots of bugs and niggles. More importantly, there's a game-experience breaking (considering how most people play FM) bug that affects the Determination-attribute. Right now, there SHOULD have been a sticky at the top of the forums, informing everyone about the known issues, and when a patch can be expected (I realize, that's not easy to predict, but if there's a policy that dictates X days of testing before release, it should say "earliest next monday" or something similar).

2. I love FM, but it's disappointing to see the level of improvement from game to game, especially in key areas. This may sound overly critical, but with such a big development team, it's very disappointing (every year). Metacritic and Steam user scores are poor, and reflect this. Additionally, the developers on this forum rarely show humility and respect for the consumers when dealing with the various issues that crop up. Bugs can exist for months and years without being fixed, and the game has actually taken a step back in some areas (like faces of generated people). The game is also very poorly optimised, graphically.

All in all, love FM, looking forward to play, but disappointed (as I am every year) in both the improvements and the state of the game.

Steam score 87% and very positive.

Metacritic score 85%.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Huey Lewis

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, StevehFC said:

Everyone is frustrated about the major issue but I've noticed posts being deleted which to me look like people give reasonable feedback. SI have to accept negative feedback. 

You miss the point and if you read the thread - there is negative feedback. What's not acceptable is bashing users and/or SI. It's literally in the forum rules. We need feedback on FM20, good or bad. Just keep the feedback constructive.

[metallimuse]

42 minutes ago, ImDaWeasel said:

Depends what stage of the beta you started at. Early releases of the beta didnt have it. Just came into the db a week or so ago.

So as a day 1 BETA player I shouldn't have the bug?

If so this has made my day!

[Lempicka]

This determination bug sure is taking the heat off Prince Andrew and the Hong Kong Police 

Seriously though, I'm enjoying the ME. They're never going to get it 100% right, but it's heading in the right direction.

 

 

 

 

 

[Armistice]

The lack of central play is so blatant that you only need 1-2 games to spot it.

[santy001]

Indeed, its worth doubling down on what @HUNT3R has said. If you don't like something about the game, that's a perfectly valid comment and it stands on its own legs. Just explain why you dislike it, what feels bad about it to you.

You don't need to start trying to divine some hidden meaning on the 6th night after the full moon about it. Nor do you need to bash people to try and make yourself feel better in some way. 

[Vision1990]

10 hours ago, Vision1990 said:

Anybody wanna start an online long term file? 

 

 

[KGregory4444]

I've started my save yesterday and had done two pretty big 2/3 hour sessions on it and just started the season now, really enjoying it! Do you think the determination issue will affect me noticeably? I hadn't noticed it until I saw this just now, will they be able to adjust my current save so I don't have to restart?

 

[XaW]

7 minutes ago, cregan said:

No, it's not unplayable, but my point was equally that it is that "hard to mentor/tutor up" younger players and that mentoring can't handle it if the only players available to mentor are all also affected. Newgens don't come in until the youth intake ticks over, so even if they came in in enough numbers to replace an entire senior squad (which they won't, obviously), that doesn't affect the first-season experience. 

For illustration: I started, and quickly stopped, a Scandinavian save last night, July start, unemployed, accept the first offer that comes in. That was Linkoping, bottom of one of the bottom leagues in Sweden. Good fun start, and by no means unusual as challenging FM saves go.

The club has 17 players in total, all but two of them under 23. It has two players (neither over 23, as it happens) with Determination over 3, at a mighty 7 and 9; neither is going to be able to do any mentoring to speak of. The club's total wage budget is £225p/w so the scope for getting in senior (semi-)pros, even if there were any who aren't also Determination 1-3 (which, on searching, there aren't), is very limited. Adding a manager to browse other clubs at the same level, it's the same across the board: mostly very young players, with a smattering of near-retirement oldies and a few journeymen, almost all attributes probably unset in the database because of the level they're at, and almost all of them with minimum Determination (Linkoping is better than some; one of our rivals has one player on 7, the rest on 1). And there's no in-game way to change that because there are no mentors, and in any case you'd be looking to improve an entire squad rather than one or two duff youngsters.

(On top of which, the way attribute points are distributed for a player's overall ability level seems on the face of it to mean that everyone at these obscure little clubs in obscure little leagues has remarkably good scores in their other mental attributes: only one of my team of no-hopers has Decisions lower than 8 and more than half have 11+, for instance. That rival with one lone guy with Determination 7 has almost an entire team with Leadership 10+, others are wildly Aggressive.)

So I doubt it's a problem at the top end, where a raft of senior players with values set in the DB can coach up erroneously poor youngsters and cover for the bug. But outside that experience, it is. And while, yes, the AI suffers from the same problem, the user can't do anything much to get around it at that level due to the resources lower leagues have to offer.

And even if every team in the division is populated almost entirely by fragile, inconsistent, charismatic geniuses with anger management issues, as a simulation while it might be playable it's still not especially enjoyable. 

Oh, I don't disagree with you, but there are a lot of hyperbole flying around here that won't do anyone any good.

Still, I'm actually wondering of starting a short term game now, just to have this as an extra challenge. Actually a bit temping to see if I can temper and develop those nasty players.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, XaW said:

Still, I'm actually wondering of starting a short term game now, just to have this as an extra challenge. Actually a bit temping to see if I can temper and develop those nasty players.

Would be interesting to see what you find, if you do. Remember, Andrew said the attributes like Determination are more flexible compared to previous years.