FM22 & FM23 [Experiment] The truth about the Youth Intake preview and the Youth Intake itself. What can change? What you can have an impact on.

[Jimbokav1971]

As with the previous examples, I will be editing the Junior Coaching level to L20 and keeping everything else at L1. There has been no change to anything else like reputation, staff or affiliations. 

Junior Coaching is the next Facility on the list. In the dim and distant past we knew this to influence the CA of the Newgen players. In my Ceuta save, my Junior Coaching is maxed out and I've struggled to get anything else upgraded yet still managed to get some good players through, so I'm expecting a significant jump in the quality of players produced here. 

There is only a slight increase in CA from the Control Group, (39.99-39.74) and when you consider that the Control Group Facilities were 7.7.10.6, this is only a modest improvement. Having said that, the Control Group Facilities add up to 30 and the Max Junior Coaching Group Facilities add up to only 23, so a better way of looking at it is that they are doing slightly more, (in terms of CA), with a fair bit less in terms of facilities. 

In terms of PA though there is a significant increase (86.06-73.09 in comparison to the control group). This is the 1st test we have done where we have seen a 100 PA player, (and we saw 3), but they were exactly 100 and with nothing higher. I wonder if it's capped in some way? The only way to know for sure would be to do test after test after test on a much bigger scale, but that's not what this is about. We don't know that it's capped. We just know that the above is what we got from 10 intakes. 

[Jimbokav1971]

21 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

I have to admit that i did not know that  i am thinking about doing a new Africanos Braganca style save (Cape Verde regens in Portugal) but this time again with Caley Braves (French Regens in Scotland), might post something about that (dynamic youth rating, nationalities etc).

That's a great idea for a save  and should be a fair bit easier than most Youth Only saves. Usually the Youth Rating of the players produced is lower than the Youth Rating of the Nation the club is in. I don't know if I know fo another example off the top of my head where it's the other way around like this. 

[OlivierL]

6 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

That's a great idea for a save  and should be a fair bit easier than most Youth Only saves. Usually the Youth Rating of the players produced is lower than the Youth Rating of the Nation the club is in. I don't know if I know fo another example off the top of my head where it's the other way around like this. 

If i'm correct, the level of the french players produced at Braves, should be of the level of the nation rating from Scotland. That is what someone of SI told me about Cape Verdeans in Portugal.

[Jimbokav1971]

2 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

If i'm correct, the level of the french players produced at Braves, should be of the level of the nation rating from Scotland. That is what someone of SI told me about Cape Verdeans in Portugal.

This is one of the tests that I'm sure I will get around to at some point, but that's not my understanding and experience of how the system works. 

When you were managing Africanos Braganca, the players were of really poor quality, (in comparison to those of Portugal), and that makes me think that they are being generated using the (CPV) Youth Rating rather than the (POR) Youth Rating. Again, I don't know this. It's just based on my experience of seeing the CA/PA of players coming through my intake in FM22, (where I was looking at the actual CA/PA), and I noticed a trend for the nations like Angola and Cape Verde often having lower starting CA even when their PA was decent. 

Someone else told me yesterday that they think that players are generated using the Youth Nation of the Nation they are generated in, and at the time it made sense, but thinking about it in these terms and remembering back to FM22.... I'm not so sure. 

You know, I'm not even sure I can edit an experiment for this via the in game editor.....  

I can't do it at Melilla obviously, but part of my thinking about this is based on some experiments I did with a Chinese Newgen producing club in Portugal in FM22.... (I can't remember the name now)...... Let me have a look and see if I can find them...... 

It's Oriental Dragon in Portugal. 

Before I started by Beleneses save on FM22, I ran a few experiments, (on FM21), where I looked at the quality of the Oriental Dragons intake. In the end I decided that the quality was significantly poorer than the facilities suggested and this led me to believe that they were being created using the Chinese Youth Rating rather than the Portugese Youth Rating. Let me repeat that I don't know this for sure, (and even if I did it was FM21 rather than FM23), but I still have a nagging doubt. 

If I get the chance I will run a test comparison between Oriental Dragon in Portugal and a Portugese team that produces normal Newgens, give them the same facilities, run 10 intakes each and then compare the results. 

Just for the record, here are the Nation Youth Ratings concerned, (hidden just in case someone doesn't want to see them). 

Spoiler

Scotland. 83
France. 156.
Angola. 75
Cape Verde. 45
Portugal. 134.
China. 60.

 

[OlivierL]

26 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

This is one of the tests that I'm sure I will get around to at some point, but that's not my understanding and experience of how the system works. 

When you were managing Africanos Braganca, the players were of really poor quality, (in comparison to those of Portugal), and that makes me think that they are being generated using the (CPV) Youth Rating rather than the (POR) Youth Rating. Again, I don't know this. It's just based on my experience of seeing the CA/PA of players coming through my intake in FM22, (where I was looking at the actual CA/PA), and I noticed a trend for the nations like Angola and Cape Verde often having lower starting CA even when their PA was decent. 

Someone else told me yesterday that they think that players are generated using the Youth Nation of the Nation they are generated in, and at the time it made sense, but thinking about it in these terms and remembering back to FM22.... I'm not so sure. 

You know, I'm not even sure I can edit an experiment for this via the in game editor.....  

I can't do it at Melilla obviously, but part of my thinking about this is based on some experiments I did with a Chinese Newgen producing club in Portugal in FM22.... (I can't remember the name now)...... Let me have a look and see if I can find them...... 

It's Oriental Dragon in Portugal. 

Before I started by Beleneses save on FM22, I ran a few experiments, (on FM21), where I looked at the quality of the Oriental Dragons intake. In the end I decided that the quality was significantly poorer than the facilities suggested and this led me to believe that they were being created using the Chinese Youth Rating rather than the Portugese Youth Rating. Let me repeat that I don't know this for sure, (and even if I did it was FM21 rather than FM23), but I still have a nagging doubt. 

If I get the chance I will run a test comparison between Oriental Dragon in Portugal and a Portugese team that produces normal Newgens, give them the same facilities, run 10 intakes each and then compare the results. 

Just for the record, here are the Nation Youth Ratings concerned, (hidden just in case someone doesn't want to see them). 

  Reveal hidden contents

Scotland. 83
France. 156.
Angola. 75
Cape Verde. 45
Portugal. 134.
China. 60.

 

I understand what you mean but at the end when my reputation raised and my facilities and hoyd were really good, i procedured three wonderkids, only in season 16/17 i think. So i believe that they were produces according to the level of portugal. Cape Verde wasn't at a higher level after those season. But i don't know this for sure. Your Oriental experiment is the opposite from what i think that happend in my FM22 Africanos save.

Would love to know the results of that kind of experience.

 

[Jimbokav1971]

19 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

I understand what you mean but at the end when my reputation raised and my facilities and hoyd were really good, i procedured three wonderkids, only in season 16/17 i think. So i believe that they were produces according to the level of portugal. Cape Verde wasn't at a higher level after those season. But i don't know this for sure. Your Oriental experiment is the opposite from what i think that happend in my FM22 Africanos save.

Would love to know the results of that kind of experience.

 

We have to remember that FM21 was a different game to FM22 and even that's a different game FM23 now. 

I will definitely do this experiment shortly because now I'm really curious. 

[Jimbokav1971]

As with the previous tests, I have left everything else as is but edited Youth Recruitment to L20. 

In the past, Youth Recruitment was all about PA, so while I expect this to obviously have a significant impact on PA, it will be interesting to see if it has much of an impact on CA too.

Well quite frankly I'm astonished.  This wasn't what I was expecting at all. To many of is this facility was all about the generation of potential in your Newgens and in actual fact, (at least under these circumstances), it generates the lowest amount of PA, (in these series of tests). 

When we saw the significant jump after the Junior Coaching test, I assumed that the Youth Recruitment would be similar, but more pronounced in terms of PA. That it seems to have had a negative impact, not just in comparison to the Control Group, (you have to remember that the facilities used in the Control Group were 7.7.10.6, (total facilities score of 30), and the total facility score in these experiments is only 23), but also in comparison to the other tests we've run. If you had asked me for a prediction ahead of this I'm not sure which I would have picked as more powerful, (in terms of Newgen creation), out of Junior Coaching & Youth Recruitment, but I absolutely would have said that these 2 facilities were significantly more powerful than Training Facilities and Youth Facilities. It would seem I was seriously wrong.  

In hindsight, (always a wonderful thing), I've been producing what appear to be some quite good newgens in my Ceuta save, and there was some discussion @Thebaker @ToMexico!! @Rikulec @Sonic Youth in the thread that this didn't seem realistic based on my facilities, (and I think I possibly agreed with that), but when I tell you that my facilities are currently 8.8.20.6, it perhaps makes a little more sense). 

While all these little experiments give us some decent, they don't tell us the full story because I've never seen anyone have facilities at 1.1.20.1 so it doesn't translate well into what we can expect to see in our games.

I'll have a think and see what I can come up with for the next series of tests, because at the moment, (as usual), this poses more questions than it provides answers. 

[Jimbokav1971]

Hang on. The Player 5 Total CA * Avg CA info is wrong. 

It was correct in the Control Group. 
And in 1.1.1.1.
And in 20.1.1.1.
And in 1.20.1.1.
But 1.1.20.1. is wrong and needs to be updated. 
And 1.1.1.20. is wrong and needs to be updated. 

I will fix these and then see where we are. I must have deleted the formulae & over-typed at some point without realising.   

Edited November 18, 2022 by Jimbokav1971

[Jimbokav1971]

Here are the updated sheets for the last 2 groups. 

Junior Coaching. 

Youth Recruitment. 

Here is the updated accurate Summary. 

Actually it didn't make much of a difference at all. 

[Jimbokav1971]

I don't think I can leave it like that. I'm not happy that we've got the full story at all with regards to the facilities, so I have a few more follow-up experiments in mind before I move onto experiments in slightly different areas.

I'm going to edit the facilities to the following levels and then run the x10 intakes again and then compare the results after that. 

1.1.1.1. We've done this one. 
20.1.1.1. We've done this one. 
1.20.1.1. We've done this one. 
1.1.20.1. We've done this one. 
1.1.1.20. We've done this one. 
7.7.10.6. This is the Control Group. 

The 1st thing I think we need to do is keep the other facility levels the same, but at the same time max them out 1 by 1 and review the outcomes. 

20.7.10.6.
7.20.10.6.
7.7.20.6.
7.7.10.20.

After that, (and taking into account that the Control Group Total Facility score is 30 when they are added together), I think I might do a series of runs where the total facility score is 30, but where there is 1 single large outlier each time. 

20.4.3.3.
3.20.4.3.
3.3.20.4.
4.3.3.20.

I'm not for a minute suggesting that the power of each type of facility is equal, but I think if we're comparing it to the original Control Group figures, itb would be silly not to run a set of tests like this.

I think then it's about looking about the upper end of the scale, (which more people can relate to I think), and running something like this. 

20.10.10.10.
10.20.10.10.
10.10.20.10.
10.10.10.20.

I'm still really surprised by the last Youth Recruitment result and I wonder if it's something that "kicks in" when other facilities are higher?  If I don't run the test though I will always be wondering.

20.15.15.15.
15.20.15.15.
15.15.20.15.
15.15.15.20

I think once we get to that point we will have all the data we need. We might not like the results and the conclusions that we draw from them, but that won't make them any less valid.
 

[-Jef-]

Doesn't youth recruitment only affect how far your coaches and youth scouts find these players before they appear in youth intake? So maybe you could look at the variety of places these players come from and this only leads to slight PA/CA uptick, no? Whilst 20-20-20-1 would lead to incredibly high ca/pa it would only generate local players (for example, Sofia-based team would generate mostly local players) and someone with 10-10-10-20 would generate average/bad players but with varied places these players come from

 

Can you test it out/check if it's valid?

Edited November 18, 2022 by -Jef-

[Jimbokav1971]

1 minute ago, -Jef- said:

Doesn't youth recruitment only affect how far your coaches and youth scouts find these players before they appear in youth intake? So maybe you could look at the variety of places these players come from and this only leads to slight PA/CA uptick, no? Whilst 20-20-20-1 would lead to incredibly high ca/pa it would only generate local players (for example, Sofia-based team would generate mostly local players) and someone with 10-10-10-20 would generate average/bad players but with varied places these players come from

Can you test it out/check if it's valid?

Hey @-Jef-Pretty sure that's not how it works, but I'm not 100% sure so yes I will absolutely check that. In fact I will do it straight away because it will be quite a quick one. 

[Thebaker]

Have you tried running the control group again but changing the rep of the club or the nation rating to see any differences

[OlivierL]

11 minutes ago, Thebaker said:

Have you tried running the control group again but changing the rep of the club or the nation rating to see any differences

The rep of the club , hoyd an manager is very important , so I'm curious!

[ToMexico!!]

4 hours ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

For example I'm sure there are absolutely LOADS of people who are unaware that Average/Adequate on Junior Coaching is the wrong way round. 

I've always thought this but never looked into it. 

[Jimbokav1971]

Location. 

Requested by @-Jef- This will be an experiment where I set the facilities to 20.20.20.1 to test if the level of Youth Recruitment impacts on the distance from which newgens are recruited. The idea being suggested is that L1 might be just in the immediate town/village/City, L10 might be the whole Country, L15 might be the Continent and L10 might be the whole World, (or something along those lines). I'm pretty sure that it doesn't work that way, (but not 100% positive), so let's have a look and see what the results tell us. 

I will display this information differently because we're looking at things other than CA/PA, and I don't expect to have to do 10 full intakes. I might just do a couple depending on the results. 

Intake 1. I think this answers the question, (but possibly not). Yes we have the FGN players from (BUL), (IRS), (MAR) and (CMR), but 10 of the 12 Spanish born players were born in Melila, (a Spanish enclave in Morocco). 

Burjassot is in mainland Spain and miles away. 

Silla is in mainland Spain, but again it's miles away. 

I was hoping that M'Rirt might be local to Melilla in Morocco, but it's almost 6 hours away. 

So while it's not true that the distance from which players can be scouted for the Academy is restricted by the low Youth Recruitment value, we certainly see more locally produced players sourced this way. 

I will run a couple more examples just to double check. 

Intake 2. 

1x FGN player (from Romania).
1x naturalised FGN player (from Mali).
9 of the remaining 14 Spanish players from Melilla. 
Of the 5 "other" Spaniards, 3 are from the South Coast, 1 from central Spain and 1 from Northern Spain. 

 

Intake 3. 

1x FGN player, (from Russia).
1x naturalised FGN player, (from MLI). 
11 of the remaining 14 players are from Melilla. 
3 remaining Spaniards, 1 from the North & 2 from South Coast. 

In summary, while it certainly doesn't limit the club to only signing local players, it is certainly the case that more of the players signed will be from the immediate area. 

Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick from @-Jef-and this is what he meant and I took him too literally? 

What's also interesting is that there are no players at 100 PA. I mean we've got 11 different players at 90 PA+, but not a single one in treble figures. 

[Jimbokav1971]

28 minutes ago, Thebaker said:

Have you tried running the control group again but changing the rep of the club or the nation rating to see any differences

No, but that's absolutely something that I have planned for the future. 

[Jimbokav1971]

17 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

The rep of the club , hoyd an manager is very important , so I'm curious!

I think that club reputation will be significant. 

On the other hand I think that the reputation and/or ability of the HoYD, (or whoever is in charge of the Intake), won't be important at all, (but absolutely that is something I will test in the future). 

[Jimbokav1971]

18 minutes ago, ToMexico!! said:

I've always thought this but never looked into it. 

You won't be alone. There will be loads of people in the same situation. 

[Jimbokav1971]

Continuing on from my response to @-Jef-I think I need to continue with this because it only tells half a story. Yes we know that level 1 appears to limit the scope within Spain with which the club can recruit youngsters, (with approx 10 at least being locally produced each intake in Melilla), but we don't know how that changes as the Youth Recruitment increases. 

I've done 3 intakes at 20.20.20.1.

I'm going to do 3 more at 20.20.20.5.

Then 3 more at 20.20.20.10.

Then another 3 at 20.20.20.15.

And lastly 3 more at 20.20.20.20. 

Of the 3 intakes with Youth Recruitment increased to 5, still a heavy reliance on players from Melilla (13, 7 & 13), and still 0 players have breached the magical 100 PA barrier. 

Intake 4. (at 20.20.20.5).

Intake 5. (at 20.20.20.5).

Intake 6. (at 20.20.20.5).

At L10 there is still a significant reliance of players born in Melilla (12, 14 & 12), and still there is not a single player who has broken the 100 PA barrier. 

Intake 7. (at 20.20.20.10).

Intake 8. (at 20.20.20.10).

Intake 9. (at 20.20.20.10).

At L15 there is still a big reliance on Melilla born players, (13, 13 & 10), and still no player has broken the 100 PA barrier. 

Intake 10. (at 20.20.20.15). 

Intake 11. (at 20.20.20.15).

Intake 12. (at 20.20.20.15)

Even at L20 Youth Recruitment now, the club is still hugely reliant on local players, (12, 13 & 13), and although we have now had a player come through with 100 PA exactly, nobody with higher. 

Intake 13. (at 20.20.20.20).

Intake 14. (at 20.20.20.20). 

Intake 15. (at 20.20.20.20).

Thoughts. I think it's too easy to say that this is broken or it's a bug. The truth is that it's far more likely that we just don't understand what's happening here. When you think about it, (and it's something I have suggested many times over the years), is that when you upgrade you Youth Recruitment, within what sort of period should you start to see results? Should you see results the following day, (as we're looking at here)? No. What about the following season? No, not really. Why not? When should we see a return on our investment into Youth Recruitment? Well when you recruit players in game, it's generally thought that are somewhere in the region of 10-11 years old. That fits in with when we see them signing and with when they qualify as HG at club in many cases. In real life, if we invested, the 1st group of players who would benefit from this investment would be the 10/11 year olds that are brought in either that season, (or more likely the following season). You would then have to wait 5 years for these players to develop through the Academy and then eventually come through the Youth Intake 5 years later. I'm not saying that this is what the game is replicating, but it would certainly mirror real life if it did. I think it's more likely that it just takes a while to kick in and what we're seeing in these intakes isn't a 20.20.20.20 intake at all, because the game hasn't caught up with itself and is still working on the basis that the facilities are 20.20.20.1 and that's why the PA hasn't improved either. 

What do you think? 

[Thebaker]

I suspect that club rep is a big driver in the PA of the players coming through with it partially adjusted by your facilities.

In most peoples games by the time many people have great facilities they are probably near the top of that countries clubs as that is what is required to afford those upgrades and are putting good newgens down to facilities rather than the inherent increase in rep.  I think i saw it written down somewhere once that the top clubs get the choice of players (ie better ones) with the intakes filtering down the leagues (with nation rating dictating the number of high PA players), how facilities factor in was unclear.

You could be right that youth recruitment takes time to filter through rather than immediately when it increases.

[MadCatPT]

1 hour ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

Continuing on from my response to @-Jef-I think I need to continue with this because it only tells half a story. Yes we know that level 1 appears to limit the scope within Spain with which the club can recruit youngsters, (with approx 10 at least being locally produced each intake in Melilla), but we don't know how that changes as the Youth Recruitment increases. 

I've done 3 intakes at 20.20.20.1.

I'm going to do 3 more at 20.20.20.5.

Then 3 more at 20.20.20.10.

Then another 3 at 20.20.20.15.

And lastly 3 more at 20.20.20.20. 

Of the 3 intakes with Youth Recruitment increased to 5, still a heavy reliance on players from Melilla (13, 7 & 13), and still 0 players have breached the magical 100 PA barrier. 

Intake 4. (at 20.20.20.5).

Intake 5. (at 20.20.20.5).

Intake 6. (at 20.20.20.5).

At L10 there is still a significant reliance of players born in Melilla (12, 14 & 12), and still there is not a single player who has broken the 100 PA barrier. 

Intake 7. (at 20.20.20.10).

Intake 8. (at 20.20.20.10).

Intake 9. (at 20.20.20.10).

At L15 there is still a big reliance on Melilla born players, (13, 13 & 10), and still no player has broken the 100 PA barrier. 

Intake 10. (at 20.20.20.15). 

Intake 11. (at 20.20.20.15).

Intake 12. (at 20.20.20.15)

Even at L20 Youth Recruitment now, the club is still hugely reliant on local players, (12, 13 & 13), and although we have now had a player come through with 100 PA exactly, nobody with higher. 

Intake 13. (at 20.20.20.20).

Intake 14. (at 20.20.20.20). 

Intake 15. (at 20.20.20.20).

Thoughts. I think it's too easy to say that this is broken or it's a bug. The truth is that it's far more likely that we just don't understand what's happening here. When you think about it, (and it's something I have suggested many times over the years), is that when you upgrade you Youth Recruitment, within what sort of period should you start to see results? Should you see results the following day, (as we're looking at here)? No. What about the following season? No, not really. Why not? When should we see a return on our investment into Youth Recruitment? Well when you recruit players in game, it's generally thought that are somewhere in the region of 10-11 years old. That fits in with when we see them signing and with when they qualify as HG at club in many cases. In real life, if we invested, the 1st group of players who would benefit from this investment would be the 10/11 year olds that are brought in either that season, (or more likely the following season). You would then have to wait 5 years for these players to develop through the Academy and then eventually come through the Youth Intake 5 years later. I'm not saying that this is what the game is replicating, but it would certainly mirror real life if it did. I think it's more likely that it just takes a while to kick in and what we're seeing in these intakes isn't a 20.20.20.20 intake at all, because the game hasn't caught up with itself and is still working on the basis that the facilities are 20.20.20.1 and that's why the PA hasn't improved either. 

What do you think? 

Most likely club reputation has somthing to deal with. Can you change the reputation and test?

[Jimbokav1971]

17 minutes ago, Thebaker said:

I suspect that club rep is a big driver in the PA of the players coming through with it partially adjusted by your facilities.

In most peoples games by the time many people have great facilities they are probably near the top of that countries clubs as that is what is required to afford those upgrades and are putting good newgens down to facilities rather than the inherent increase in rep.  I think i saw it written down somewhere once that the top clubs get the choice of players (ie better ones) with the intakes filtering down the leagues (with nation rating dictating the number of high PA players), how facilities factor in was unclear.

You could be right that youth recruitment takes time to filter through rather than immediately when it increases.

I know Melilla are down in the 4th Tier at the moment, (but they were up in the 3rd tier at 1 point and I was keeping an eye on them because of the rivalry with Ceuta. I would be surprised if there was an enormous difference in reputation between Ceuta and Melilla for example, even though we've been in the 2nd Tier for a few seasons now.

Ceuta rep. 4,570
Melilla rep. 3,903

I've had what appear to be pretty decent players coming through my Academy, and I don't think that, (in this instance), reputation is the barrier to Melilla that it might be in some cases. 

Don't get me wrong, maybe I could do the reputation tests next, because if 20.20.20.20 isn't doing it for Melilla, nothing else short of that is going to have an impact either. 

Top (reputation) clubs absolutely do get preferential treatment with regards to domestic players when they are produced. How I understood it was that it was based on Youth Recruitment, and if Recruitment was level then reputation came into play. So it's not just reputation. The facilities have to be there 1st. 

There is 1 thing that we haven't considered though.... It's quite possible that the level of players coming through the intake was decided on Youth Intake Day, and no matter how many tests I run, if the player is meant to be average at best, (max of 100 PA), then no amount of testing will make him come through any higher. 

I wasn't really expecting the results I got to the 20.20.20.20 tests. I'm not sure what to do next, (so might give it a breather for a couple of days and see if anyone comes up with some suggestions). 

[Jimbokav1971]

6 minutes ago, MadCatPT said:

Most likely club reputation has somthing to deal with. Can you change the reputation and test?

That seems to be a popular thing so I guess that's what I will be doing next. You, @Thebaker& @OlivierLhave all mentioned it so I guess rep is the next thing I will look at. 

[MadCatPT]

49 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

I know Melilla are down in the 4th Tier at the moment, (but they were up in the 3rd tier at 1 point and I was keeping an eye on them because of the rivalry with Ceuta. I would be surprised if there was an enormous difference in reputation between Ceuta and Melilla for example, even though we've been in the 2nd Tier for a few seasons now.

Ceuta rep. 4,570
Melilla rep. 3,903

I've had what appear to be pretty decent players coming through my Academy, and I don't think that, (in this instance), reputation is the barrier to Melilla that it might be in some cases. 

Don't get me wrong, maybe I could do the reputation tests next, because if 20.20.20.20 isn't doing it for Melilla, nothing else short of that is going to have an impact either. 

Top (reputation) clubs absolutely do get preferential treatment with regards to domestic players when they are produced. How I understood it was that it was based on Youth Recruitment, and if Recruitment was level then reputation came into play. So it's not just reputation. The facilities have to be there 1st. 

There is 1 thing that we haven't considered though.... It's quite possible that the level of players coming through the intake was decided on Youth Intake Day, and no matter how many tests I run, if the player is meant to be average at best, (max of 100 PA), then no amount of testing will make him come through any higher. 

I wasn't really expecting the results I got to the 20.20.20.20 tests. I'm not sure what to do next, (so might give it a breather for a couple of days and see if anyone comes up with some suggestions). 

The being set at intake could also be it, part could also explain a lot of stuff. Testing it would be a pain to just holiday to first one, then to second intake to check difference.

[Jimbokav1971]

10 minutes ago, MadCatPT said:

The being set at intake could also be it, part could also explain a lot of stuff. Testing it would be a pain to just holiday to first one, then to second intake to check difference.

I've got monthly saves to help with bug reporting, so going back to an intake isn't an issue. 

[Sonic Youth]

Very interesting results.

Was wondering what: 1.1.20.5, but that 20.20.20.1 experiment showed which showed there is something else also affecting intakes.

Rep seems the popular choice. Which rep: team/league/country/all of the above? Would having the best rep team in world though playing in the fourth tier of Spain give different results than playing in first tier and being the best rep team in the world? Worst team in top top tier etc.

Edited November 19, 2022 by Sonic Youth
Tier’s

[Sonic Youth]

How are demographics worked out in game?

[-Jef-]

@Jimbokav1971yeah, you did get my point but since English is my second language sometimes I over-exaggerate my point unintentionally. I seem to remember that all youth (facilities, coaching and recruitment) affect both ca/pa but recruitment affects the extent of players. I also seem to remember that all the coaches have some kind of impact on type and from where players come from. Also devs also keep on hammering the point that everything is interconnected so maybe coaches/hoyd knowledge of other countries, rep of coaches/hoyd, rep of club, general knowledge of club all make slight difference to quality of players coming through but more importantly the type of players and from where they come from.

 

Junior Coaching does seem to be the most powerful for better players.

 

Youth recruitment might take some time to 'kick in'.

 

From which dates are you holidaying? From before intake preview and until youth intake appears?

[OlivierL]

Started with in Iceland with Afrika Reykjavik

.

They get newgens from Poland and some african and south american newgens. Reputation very low and we start in the 5th tier, this will be a youth only experiment in the youth only challenge topic.

 

[WhiteCat33]

This is a great experiment thread! I think you went into it earlier but even if this FM edition is changing names at intake, it's probable that the Youth Intake Preview sets some kind of CA-PA range for the players. Would explain the limited upside you're seeing. 

Not sure what the best strategy is, but might be worth setting up saves off a new intake preview with max facilities and staff.

Like @OlivierL I'm doing a youth only save in the challenge thread. For me I have found a 5th tier Luxembourg side ASL Porto which produces Portuguese regens and some cape verde. Interested to see if I can equal the quality of players that the Portugal clubs can produce out of luxembourgs miserable 35 Youth Rating. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by WhiteCat33

[Jimbokav1971]

1 hour ago, OlivierL said:

Started with in Iceland with Afrika Reykjavik

.

They get newgens from Poland and some african and south american newgens. Reputation very low and we start in the 5th tier, this will be a youth only experiment in the youth only challenge topic.

 

I've looked at them in the past. Apparently there was a large African contingent initially, but they have been superseded by Poles hence the change in Newgan nationality. I haven't done Iceland in a while. There was an issue with U19 teams that stopped me playing a few issues ago and I've never been back. Good luck. 

[Jimbokav1971]

51 minutes ago, WhiteCat33 said:

This is a great experiment thread! I think you went into it earlier but even if this FM edition is changing names at intake, it's probable that the Youth Intake Preview sets some kind of CA-PA range for the players. Would explain the limited upside you're seeing. 

Not sure what the best strategy is, but might be worth setting up saves off a new intake preview with max facilities and staff.

Like @OlivierL I'm doing a youth only save in the challenge thread. For me I have found a 5th tier Luxembourg side ASL Porto which produces Portuguese regens and some cape verde. Interested to see if I can equal the quality of players that the Portugal clubs can produce out of luxembourgs miserable 35 Youth Rating. 

Thanks. Absolutely I need to do a test that tells us what impact if any the Youth Intake Preview now has. We know what the situation was last season, but it's obviously different now so we need to start again. I have monthly saves all the way through my Ceuta save, so I will go backwards so I can still use the same save so that nothing else changes. 

Yeah, I still don't know if it's Nationality or Nation generated that determines which Nation Youth Rating is used. I'm pretty sure it used to be Nationality, but what was in the past isn't an indication of what happens now. 

[OlivierL]

4 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

I've looked at them in the past. Apparently there was a large African contingent initially, but they have been superseded by Poles hence the change in Newgan nationality. I haven't done Iceland in a while. There was an issue with U19 teams that stopped me playing a few issues ago and I've never been back. Good luck. 

Yeah that issue with affiliated youth teams is still in game, and in this database the only thing that is available is a U21 and reserve league once you get into the first tier  Thank you.

[Jimbokav1971]

On 19/11/2022 at 13:12, -Jef- said:

@Jimbokav1971yeah, you did get my point but since English is my second language sometimes I over-exaggerate my point unintentionally. I seem to remember that all youth (facilities, coaching and recruitment) affect both ca/pa but recruitment affects the extent of players. I also seem to remember that all the coaches have some kind of impact on type and from where players come from. Also devs also keep on hammering the point that everything is interconnected so maybe coaches/hoyd knowledge of other countries, rep of coaches/hoyd, rep of club, general knowledge of club all make slight difference to quality of players coming through but more importantly the type of players and from where they come from.

Junior Coaching does seem to be the most powerful for better players.

Youth recruitment might take some time to 'kick in'.

From which dates are you holidaying? From before intake preview and until youth intake appears?

Yeah, I agree with just about all of that. 

So far I have just holidayed from the day before the intake to the day of the intake, (so holidaying just 1 single day).

As mentioned in my response to @WhiteCat33I absolutely also need to do some tests where the start point is prior to the Youth Intake Preview. That's harder simply because rather than holidaying 1 single day again and again, I have to holiday about 3.5-4 months for each test.  

[Jimbokav1971]

2 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

Yeah that issue with affiliated youth teams is still in game, and in this database the only thing that is available is a U21 and reserve league once you get into the first tier  Thank you.

Is the youth thing a big, or was there a re-structuring at Youth Level in Iceland? I know I'm calling it a bug, but obviously I'm not Icelandic and don't follow their domestic football so I don't actually know if SI are replicating real life or not. 

[OlivierL]

28 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

Is the youth thing a big, or was there a re-structuring at Youth Level in Iceland? I know I'm calling it a bug, but obviously I'm not Icelandic and don't follow their domestic football so I don't actually know if SI are replicating real life or not. 

In the official DB , now they have a U19A B C league but in my downloaded DB this is not working. I'm not sure how it works in real life but it should be available.

My biggest challenge is to get into the first tier, everything will be fixed (beside the 12 sub issue).

 

[Jimbokav1971]

On 21/11/2022 at 18:39, OlivierL said:

In the official DB , now they have a U19A B C league but in my downloaded DB this is not working. I'm not sure how it works in real life but it should be available.

My biggest challenge is to get into the first tier, everything will be fixed (beside the 12 sub issue).

 

Who's database are you using? There are only a couple of editors I trust enough to play on their database. 

[OlivierL]

1 hour ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

Who's database are you using? There are only a couple of editors I trust enough to play on their database. 

I was using one from steam community but Timo released one yesterday so I restarted and that database looks great.

[Jimbokav1971]

2 hours ago, OlivierL said:

I was using one from steam community but Timo released one yesterday so I restarted and that database looks great.

Timo is indeed the man.  He doesn't go into quite as much detail as others, but there is much less chance of a corrupt game later on. 

[phnompenhandy]

Just stumbled across this thread. Phenomenal work Jimbo! I'm a die-hard Academy Intake Challenge sort, so I'll follow it and hope you continue to run your tests 

[Sir_Liam]

I've read through all of this today and there's some fascinating findings.  I think the main questions I have revolve around what Youth Recruitment does.  It doesn't seem to be affecting the intakes in terms of CA/PA in your experiments, but I'm wondering if it'd change things if it was changed before the intake preview?  Also is it something that needs a couple of years or more to kick in and start to affect things.

When it comes to the location of regens I've generally been of the opinion that the higher it becomes the less players you'll have from your club's home town.  However club reputation could also be altering this and I also think that every country has its own unique characteristics (I.e. Turkey where I managed last year very very rarely produces foreign regens and when it does they're always Turkish 2nd nationality) and some clubs will.  Melilla is pretty unique with it being based away from the Spanish mainland and that may mean that regardless of youth recruitment they won't get as many regens from outside Melilla.

This thread has definitely made me think about some of my assumptions on youth intakes though.  As others have said I am a firm believer that club reputation makes a big difference although I haven't tested this, so I'd be interested in seeing what happens when that's changed.

[phnompenhandy]

Youth Recruitment:   Clearly we just don't know yet, but I like the logic of assuming it refers to discovering pre-teen lads and ensuring they get good coaching before they arrive in your intake 5 or 6 years later.

[Jimbokav1971]

@phnompenhandy @Sir_Liam Thanks lads. Appreciate the responses. Apologies there hasn't been more work done on this but I've been enjoying the World Cup more than I anticipated, (really wasn't keen beforehand), but I'm also absolutely loving RImworld at the moment, (babies!!!!!) so FM has taken a back seat surprisingly. Will be back before too long..... or at least that was the plan before I saw that Dwarf Fortress has been released on steam. 

I will be back before soon though I promise. 

[phnompenhandy]

6 minutes ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

@phnompenhandy @Sir_Liam Thanks lads. Appreciate the responses. Apologies there hasn't been more work done on this but I've been enjoying the World Cup more than I anticipated, (really wasn't keen beforehand), but I'm also absolutely loving RImworld at the moment, (babies!!!!!) so FM has taken a back seat surprisingly. Will be back before too long..... or at least that was the plan before I saw that Dwarf Fortress has been released on steam. 

I will be back before soon though I promise. 

In your own time, mate!

[blackthorn_vcr]

Just wanted to thank you for this - a nice hour spent now consuming all this. As you suggest, I always was curious about how this works, but am too lazy to spend the time to do the actual analysis. Looking forward to more when and if you feel like it.

[Gorgonita]

En 21/11/2022 a las 19:04, Jimbokav1971 dijo:

Gracias. Absolutamente necesito hacer una prueba que nos diga qué impacto tiene ahora la Vista previa de admisión de jóvenes, si es que tiene alguno. Sabemos cuál era la situación la temporada pasada, pero obviamente ahora es diferente, por lo que debemos comenzar de nuevo. Tengo guardados mensuales hasta el final de mi guardado de Ceuta, por lo que retrocederé para poder seguir usando el mismo guardado para que nada más cambie. 

Sí, todavía no sé si es la Nacionalidad o la Nación generada lo que determina qué Clasificación Juvenil de la Nación se usa. Estoy bastante seguro de que solía ser Nacionalidad, pero lo que fue en el pasado no es una indicación de lo que sucede ahora. 

Hi Jimbo, one question.

When you load the game to generate different intakes, load just before the intake arrives, or load again at the intake preview?

I did some testing a while ago, loading the game just before intake, and I seem to remember that the nationalities never changed. 

When do you load the game so that the nationalities change?

Pd. Any news about it?

Edited January 29, 2023 by Gorgonita

[Jimbokav1971]

15 hours ago, Gorgonita said:

Hi Jimbo, one question.

When you load the game to generate different intakes, load just before the intake arrives, or load again at the intake preview?

I did some testing a while ago, loading the game just before intake, and I seem to remember that the nationalities never changed. 

When do you load the game so that the nationalities change?

Pd. Any news about it?

Hi @Gorgonita

When you say "I did some testing a while ago", do you mean with FM22 or before, or do you mean FM23?

You are 100% correct that some data was set in stone at the Youth Intake preview in previous versions of the game, (such a nationalities & names), but I think I have proved that this is not the case now in FM23. 

I think an earlier response clarified that pretty clearly. 

In the experiment you describe above, I was saving the day before the Youth Intake Day and progressing forward 1 single day. I thought I had made that clear but apologies if I didn't. 

The next step will probably be go back to running the same experiment from from a save before the youth intake, but obviously that involves progressing the game 3-4 months every single time rather than just 1 single day at a time. Of course this means much more time involved and I haven't even been looking at it recently, (for a number of different reasons). I will surely get back to it soon though. 
 

[Gorgonita]

hace 2 horas, Jimbokav1971 dijo:

Hola@Gorgonita

Cuando dices "Hice algunas pruebas hace un tiempo", ¿te refieres a FM22 o antes, o te refieres a FM23?

Tienes 100% de razón en que algunos datos se grabaron en piedra en la vista previa de admisión de jóvenes en versiones anteriores del juego (como nacionalidades y nombres), pero creo que he demostrado que este no es el caso ahora en FM23. 

Creo que una respuesta anterior lo aclaró con bastante claridad. 

En el experimento que describiste anteriormente, estaba ahorrando el día anterior al Día de admisión de jóvenes y avanzando 1 solo día. Pensé que lo había dejado claro, pero pido disculpas si no lo hice. 

El siguiente paso probablemente será volver a ejecutar el mismo experimento desde un guardado antes de la admisión de jóvenes, pero obviamente eso implica progresar en el juego 3-4 meses cada vez en lugar de solo 1 día a la vez. Por supuesto, esto significa mucho más tiempo involucrado y ni siquiera lo he estado mirando recientemente (por varias razones diferentes). Aunque seguro que lo retomo pronto. 
 

I'm sorry I had not read this comment where you explained it, my English is not very good.

The tests I did were on FM23, both the names and the nationalities were always the same. I'll try again when I get to the intake on the save I'm currently playing, because if it does I don't understand why it's different in my game.

Thanks for all this research, it's really appreciated finding a thread like this.

[Gorgonita]

En 29/1/2023 a las 17:15, Jimbokav1971 dijo:

Hi @Gorgonita

You are 100% correct that some data was set in stone at the Youth Intake preview in previous versions of the game, (such a nationalities & names), but I think I have proved that this is not the case now in FM23. 

 

Hello again.

I have done the test again, and the result has been the same. In my FM23, in the intake, the players always appear with the same name and nationality.

Out of curiosity, just before the arrival, I once lowered the "youth recruitment" level to 1, and the only change was that the arrival of the players was delayed by a month. But again the same players appeared.

During the tests has any type of modification been used?