NOT SOUTHGATE'S LAST HURRAH: The England 2022 campaign

[Baptista_8]

I'd certainly take Rooney over Gerrard. Rooney seems to know his stuff.

[GunmaN1905]

Just now, Weezer said:

If we get rid of Southgate we might also have to say goodbye to his prodigious luck when it comes to draws as well.

That's exactly what's going to happen.

The next manager will be on around the same level if he's English, but get tough draws and have worse results, so the legend of Sir Gareth will just keep growing.

Anyhow, a bit off-topic, but seeing those domestic names you have shows the damage EPL has done to your coaching talent.

Top teams bringing in top coaches is fine, former EPL players also getting jobs is fine, but over the years there were so many painfully average foreign managers in the league that had no place being there. Now FA is EPL's victim because so few domestic coaches got the chance.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

11 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

I'd certainly take Rooney over Gerrard. Rooney seems to know his stuff.

Gerrard would **** off the second the Liverpool job came up. 

[darren1983]

1 minute ago, skybluedave said:

Lee Carsley hasn't even done well with the u21s. Not sure why we keep mentioning his name.

Plus he's Irish 

He also turned down the Brentford job when we were in the championship (before we appointed Dean Smith) as he didn't want the scrutiny of being a "high profile manager" so can't see him fancying the England job if Brentford in the championship was too high profile for him  

[Baptista_8]

4 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Gerrard would **** off the second the Liverpool job came up. 

Is this a windup

[EnterUsernameHere]

9 minutes ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Gerrard would **** off the second the Liverpool job came up. 

He's not going to be in the running.

[Weezer]

7 minutes ago, GunmaN1905 said:

That's exactly what's going to happen.

The next manager will be on around the same level if he's English, but get tough draws and have worse results, so the legend of Sir Gareth will just keep growing.

I’d look forward to it, about time we had a group of death again. Qualifying might hold a bit more interest for me if there was even a hint of jeopardy that we might not qualify instead of a bunch of exhibition matches. Unfortunately with ever expanding tournaments the likelihood of that happening gets slimmer every year.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[Astafjevs]

4 hours ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

As Rob said, if you're going to do it, you need to do it with someone who is established in the English game, and quite frankly how many of those are a) actually suited to international management and b) going to ditch the club game for internationals?

Don't know about a) but England are a decent prospect to coach at the minute. It's not like 10 years ago where it was a bit thankless. The current group are good, have already made a final, and have obvious potential to win. I suspect there's a lot of B and C list managers who fancy their chances of winning something with England.

It's not like going to coach, say, Holland, who are a traditional big nation but where the talent pool is a bit thin at the moment.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

7 hours ago, InigoPatinkin said:

It would feel really unfair on Wales/Scotland if they produced a generational talent as manager and we just yoinked him for the English national team and robbed them of the opportunity for instance.    

Would it be that unfair though if that talent has been developed through the English coaching system? I think there's a bit of nuance here you're missing. Scotland/Wales gain far more from having really close links to The Best League In The World.

[Haguey]

How many of those Welsh players came through Welsh club academies, I wonder.

Scotland have a decent record though, I guess skewed a bit towards the big two though.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

You should read Crickonomics, there's a really good chapter on how the fastest developing region in cricket is going to be Asia and the smaller nations there because they benefit so much from being based close to a cricket super power.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Coulthard's Jaw

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Well cricket and rugby seem far more problematic to me, whereas football has much more strict requirements about representing a country and quite frankly we're left debating who the victim is if we make Rodgers or Cooper manager.

[JD nawrat]

1 hour ago, InigoPatinkin said:

Yeah I think it would, it's extremely debatable that anyone other than the Premier League has benefitted from the Premier League in the last 20 years, and that's not just other home nations but the rest of the footballing pyramid too. I'm sure some Scotland based posters will correct me one way or another but is Scottish football better off now because of living next to the Premier League? 

Trickle down economics seems about as legitimate in football as it does in anywhere else. "None of your clubs can afford to keep your top talent so they all end their development at English clubs, you're welcome, so we should be able to take your best managers" seems... I dunno... a bit grim? 

We are worse off for it. Nobody wants to watch Scottish football. We get, at absolute best, 30-40 games shown per year on TV. You can watch that many English PL games in a month. It's resulted in our TV deals being pathetic and financially it has strangled the development of our game. You can definitely make the argument that our players benefit from being snapped up by English clubs, but Scottish football as a whole has suffered and stagnated in the shadow of the Sky Money League. 

[enigmatic]

3 hours ago, Astafjevs said:

Don't know about a) but England are a decent prospect to coach at the minute. It's not like 10 years ago where it was a bit thankless. The current group are good, have already made a final, and have obvious potential to win. I suspect there's a lot of B and C list managers who fancy their chances of winning something with England.

It's not like going to coach, say, Holland, who are a traditional big nation but where the talent pool is a bit thin at the moment.

There's no doubt the England job has its appeal to the managers. But do the B and C list managers have the appeal to the public? And to the players for that matter?

tbf, Gareth is a C-list manager who did alright, but it helped a lot that the team he took over was a transitional one half of which knew him personally (and even our second and third best tournament performances ever and our highest scoring tournaments ever didn't manage to shake off the arguments he was holding the team back)

 

 

[The_jagster]

1 hour ago, InigoPatinkin said:

I have no idea about Rugby as I don't follow it at all but it seems to be played by all the old commonwealth countries so I can imagine it's the same as cricket, which seems to get away with stuff like this because it's run mostly by the MCC and the old commonwealth countries are used to our plundering ways. 

 

In reality it's just that it's a small community that play it on a global scale so there is more interest in having a competitive international game and the economics of the sport means it's only the castoffs who are choosing a different nationality in the main, because there's more money representing the national team. (Think this will change with the new generation and franchise leagues in cricket).

There's naturalisation in handball too and I don't think that is down to the hangover of British imperial rule in Qatar.

Whereas in football there are enough sides to have competitive international tournaments even if you tighten up nationality criteria.

But I wouldn't allow adult naturalisation tbh

[Coulthard's Jaw]

How long did Hick have to wait to qualify for England, wasn't it something mad like 7 years?

[The_jagster]

England has 18 professional sides to offer career prospects in cricket, which skews the economics of it. Pietersen aside it's not really the top talents from other big Test nations, and it's the same in rugby (which also has its own exaggerated issues with Pacific Islanders playing for Australia or New Zealand).

[Smallen]

Good video from JLA here 

[Barry Cartman]

Who said this World Cup was a failure

 

[Rob1981]

10 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Who said this World Cup was a failure

Just @GunmaN1905 I think.

[skybluedave]

Basically no (or expensive hard to get) alchohol is the reason for this ain't it 

[Barry Cartman]

6 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

Basically no (or expensive hard to get) alchohol is the reason for this ain't it 

Imagine no alcohol being allowed in football 

doesn't bear thinking about  

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Be interesting to hear from @Weezer about what the atmosphere has been like.

[Chase Failey]

On 13/12/2022 at 12:38, Baptista_8 said:

I'd certainly take Rooney over Gerrard. Rooney seems to know his stuff.

Can't risk him dropping Kane to stop him eclipsing his goal record 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Wikipedia tells me Caddick's parents were both English so I feel less bad about England taking him (although we come back to my original point that it's the system that develops you which is possibly the most important thing with this stuff when it's about coaches/managers).

Edited December 14, 2022 by Coulthard's Jaw

[Bootador]

2 hours ago, Barry Cartman said:

Who said this World Cup was a failure

 

Remove the booze, remove the morons

[Chase Failey]

30 minutes ago, Bootador said:

Remove the booze, remove the morons

Distinct lack of flares up arses its true

[Barry Cartman]

Lack of camera cuts to beautiful ladies as well 

[skybluedave]

One yellow card the whole tournament. Best behaved fans. Country of fairplay and respect

[Constantine]

7 minutes ago, skybluedave said:

One yellow card the whole tournament. Best behaved fans. Country of fairplay and respect

Proper sports/fan's washing, that...

[Coulthard's Jaw]

29 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Lack of camera cuts to beautiful ladies as well 

That's what Instagram is for these days.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[Bigwig]

Gonna be Rafa then. No more sitting back and keeping it tight waiting for that once chance per game. Oh. 

[Weezer]

2 hours ago, Coulthard's Jaw said:

Be interesting to hear from @Weezer about what the atmosphere has been like.

I thought it was great tbh. The atmosphere in the stadiums and fan zones has been brilliant. I don’t think it’s been as loud as a regular British game but I think that’s the nature of a World Cup. The crowd is mixed, there’s a lot of casuals and neutrals, there isn’t the variety of songs and chants as in club football nor the number of fans of that specific team to make it loud enough. The lack of alcohol has also made this the safest feeling World Cup there’s ever been. Crime is already low here anyway (in Brazil you constantly had to check your pockets in crowds) and the closest thing I’ve seen to animosity or aggression here is when a young Qatari guy pushed into the front of a refreshments queue and some Westerners set him straight (queueing is an alien concept to a lot of Asians). Fans have been mixing in busy areas of the city with no tribalism, everybody is just getting along. No heavy handed policing, and the only time I’ve seen security in the stadiums be necessary is when they’re pointing clueless people to their seats.

I think us British people also forget that whilst drinking is so ingrained into our football culture the rest of the world doesn’t. Sure the South American fans have a couple of beers, a lot of the European nations like the Germans, Dutch and Eastern Europeans but they don’t feel the need to get tanked up to enjoy a football game. A lot of the other fans seem to be able to party without getting drunk, because that’s normal for them. I don’t know if it’s always been the case and I’ve never noticed because I only normally watch them on TV but I’ve noticed the English do seem more subdued than others. Maybe that’s because they haven’t been able to get slaughtered and without that we’re naturally reserved? We only seem to have one chant and that’s droning the chorus of the national anthem.

[VamPook]

Asians don't know the meaning of queuing?

Really

Is that usually the case

If there's one thing we love doing here, is bloody queueing 

[Weezer]

2 minutes ago, VamPook said:

Asians don't know the meaning of queuing?

Really

Is that usually the case

If there's one thing we love doing here, is bloody queueing 

Yeah sorry, that was a lazy generalisation because I’ve not been everywhere in Asia (it’s a big place!) but if you’ve ever been here, China or India you’ll know what I mean.

[enigmatic]

5 hours ago, skybluedave said:

Basically no (or expensive hard to get) alchohol is the reason for this ain't it 

That and only about two English fans made the trip

 

I hope this doesn't give FIFA ideas....

 

2 hours ago, VamPook said:

Asians don't know the meaning of queuing?

Really

Is that usually the case

If there's one thing we love doing here, is bloody queueing 

I'm assuming that queuing was one of the bits of British culture Lee Kuan Yew most admired  

[JD nawrat]

39 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

Doesn't that (playing devils advocate) also apply to players though? If someone like De Gea or Lloris has lived here for most of their adult life. What about Haaland? He was actually born here so it's even more arguable, his dad lived here for ages, he now works here and lives here, would it be fair if both parties just decided he was now English and it was all okay? If you want to stick with uncapped what about Fofana or ASM? They'd certainly make nice additions to the England squad.

I get where it's coming from for sure, but international sport is inherently a bit jingoistic and "exempt" from the liberal globalist outlook I think most of us here support in virtually every other aspect of life. There's probably some theory about international sports being a healthy outlet for that kind of emotion but lord knows I'm not clever enough to make it. I'd feel much better about the Qatar would Cup if I thought it was averting WW3  

Doesn't football adhere to naturalisation rules though? Like, a person and footballer are both considered Spanish if they work in Spain for 3 years iirc. I think every country has this and it applies to someone working/living there. Obviously you get grandparents allowing qualification but even then, that is generally acceptable too i think? There was a lot of people getting Irish passports after Brexit through their grandparents iirc. 

[skybluedave]

Home nations agreement makes naturalisation rule a bit moot in UK though. 

[arenaross]

Had a couple of pints with my best mate who's just got back from Qatar - he's a sports journo and was sat directly behind Grant Wahl when he died so he's found that really tough.

Anyway, he said the Ben White stuff is pretty accurate. He just doesn't like football and Arsenal are used to that and know how to manage it whereas on England duty he would be sat on his own in his room while all the rest of the squad would be having dinner and watching the games etc. This culminated in a falling out with Steve Holland and subsequently Southgate spoke to him and asked him why he was there if he didn't want to be, and he replied saying he didn't know, and Southgate told him if he didn't want to be there to leave. So he did.

[Barry Cartman]

tbf that sounds like poor man management, something Gareth is heavily praised for 

Surely you know about this before you call him up and take him to Qatar, if this was somehow not known to them, then why didn't they know. If the problem was him not wanting to join in with the other lads watching football, that doesn't seem like the worst crime going 

[Weezer]

28 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

If the problem was him not wanting to join in with the other lads watching football, that doesn't seem like the worst crime going 

Not something that can be ignored in a World Cup situation though is it? You can't have an individual deciding he can't be bothered to join the rest of the group when he doesn't feel like it, not exactly great for team spirit.

[Coulthard's Jaw]

I don't know how unusual this is, but this was his first ever tournament at any level. Never played for the U19s/U-21s.

[Rob1981]

Does all seem a bit odd.  I know mental health is an unpredictable thing.  But the preparation for a tournament is so methodical these days.  Massive attention to detail and loads of support staff working behind the scenes.  They must have GPs and sports psychologists and therapists on tap.  As well as the usual physios and coaches and fitness people on the playing side.  If it's not going to 'click' for one player in terms of the wellbeing side and them enjoying the group environment... surely that should be coming to light before they are halfway round the world and before the tournament has already started.

Better stop there, otherwise it sounds like a criticism of Sir Gareth

[Barry Cartman]

14 minutes ago, Weezer said:

Not something that can be ignored in a World Cup situation though is it? You can't have an individual deciding he can't be bothered to join the rest of the group when he doesn't feel like it, not exactly great for team spirit.

Can't be bothered seems strong, if he doesn't enjoy watching football or socialising in groups, thats something you should know before you decide to take him half way around the world for 4 weeks 

[GunmaN1905]

1 minute ago, Barry Cartman said:

Can't be bothered seems strong, if he doesn't enjoy watching football or socialising in groups, thats something you should know before you decide to take him half way around the world for 4 weeks 

Yeah, there are actually plenty of players who don't care about football at all, other than it being a job, obviously.

[enigmatic]

14 minutes ago, InigoPatinkin said:

Kind of mad from either party that it was allowed to get to that stage, on a personal level surely there must have been some kind of compromise which kept White involved without making him sit through every match. 

Reality is I don't think there was much point in compromising because he was unlikely to be needed to play, so not really much to be gained for either side in "how about you get a special pass to miss tactical briefings and only watch England games?". "You can leave if being here isn't what you want and we won't blame you" actually seems like the most sensible compromise. If it turned out Harry Kane could only deal with tournament pressure by hiding in his room and not being quizzed on tactics, there might be a bit more room for special arrangements to try to keep him there.

To a certain extent if White finds being surrounded by international teammates and socialising around football matches genuinely uncomfortable, it's probably as good a case as you'll get for refusing a callup to be a squad player. Sure Tomori and quite a few others would genuinely have enjoyed sitting on the bench watching games and hoping he'd get a few minutes

"Doesn't like football very much" still only feels like half the story though. Big difference between "it's just a job, talking about it bores me and in my spare time I'm dreaming about gardening rather than winning the World Cup" and feeling the need to avoid people and not do parts of the job.

I'm guessing that's a big reason why it was such a low tier tabloid that was willing to run with it...

[Coulthard's Jaw]

Who knows how accurate the initial press stories are (but it appears they all have got the basic story right) but I think it was ESPN which said he fell out with Holland because he wasn't doing the tactical "studying" expected.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Coulthard's Jaw

[Rob1981]

There was something about Steve Holland being cheesed off because he wasn’t clued up enough on the USA team. Doubt that’s him not having done “required work” for a training session though. More likely he hadn’t sat around watching their other match and maybe missed out on conversations if he wasn’t chatting with the others.

You’re getting into a very grey area here though for any walk of life. In terms of what actually counts as “work” and what counts as “socialising” if you are out with work people and you end up talking about work stuff.