Dialogue Exchanges are Childish

[phd_angel]

Dialogue between head coach and FM characters need some serious improvement. Yes, there are lots of egos and conflicts IRL football but the dialogue blurbs don't make much sense, and it has not improved in many years. It's not just the wording (more or less melodramatic), but the essence and repercussions: you are basically dealing with five-year old children who throw tantrums in most exchanges. Not realistic. Here's a couple of typical examples:

Board: "We'd like to discuss increasing the payroll for physiotherapists."
Me: "Thanks. I'd like to invest in improving training facilities."
Board: "We are extremely frustrated with this lack of agreement."

Me: "You are not playing well, so I can't give you the same amount of time."
Player: "What do I have to do?"
Me: "Work hard to cut down mistakes."
Player: "You are sabotaging my career! You'll regret this!"

You can add your own examples.  It's just disappointing that there is no care given to the dialogue interface...

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by phd_angel

[XaW]

I agree, some of them are really not logical. When you have examples, please upload them to the bug tracker as it should help weed out the worst ones.

[Maviarab]

Would these really be bugs though XaW?  The game is littered with them...it's similar to the press conferances, they so desperately need expanding upon the same repeated 25 questions, or like actually 'in' press conferences, why am I not playing such-a-body due to his good form when the player injured.  Or, I don't think I'm good enough for the squad so want a transfer (despite starting all 46 league games for me).

Yeah, I know for a fact (done this type of stuff myself with Ai chatbot programming) that coming up with this dalogue and then coding it to the correct response triggers/flags is a huge PITA, but the game needs it, desperately, instead of things like the manager timeline.  How wonderful and interesting could reporter questions and press conferences be if instead of the manager timeline (just as an example) that time was spent by someone expanding upon this stuff and/or actually making dialogues with people (players, reporters, board) actually make some sense?  Similar to the 'add your own comment' when asked a question...seriously, what does that actually do?

Surely they are are not bugs, it has to be by design at this point no?

Edited February 8, 2023 by Maviarab

[XaW]

2 minutes ago, Maviarab said:

Would these really be bugs though XaW?  The game is littered with them...it's similar to the press conferances, they so desperately need expanding upon the same repeated 25 questions, or like actually 'in' press conferances, why am I not playing such-a-body due to his good form when the player injured.  Or, I don't think I'm good enough for the squad so want a transfer (despite starting all 46 league games for me).

Yeah, I know for a fact (done this type of stuff myself with Ai chatbot programming) that coming up with this dalogue and then coding it to the correct response triggers/flags is a huge PITA, but the game needs it, desperately, instead of things like the manager timeline.  How wonderful and interesting could reporter questions and press conferences be if instead of the manager timeline (as an example) that time was spent expanding upon this stuff.  Similar to the 'add your own comment' when asked a question...seriously, what does that actually do?

Surely they are are not bugs, it has to be by design at this point no?

I'd say so, and even if they are more into the "limitation" type, SI have said all these things is to be reported in the bug tracker anyway. Examples such as why an injured player doesn't play is a bug, or at the very least a missing check somewhere.

To be fair, I can't really see any way of making press conferences interesting. My previous suggestion to it was to limit it to 2 questions max for most, and only have longer for special occasions (finals, league decider, rival matches, etc).

I don't really see the need for AI chatbots in this context, since the idea of press conferences is that they actually have an effect on the game outside it. So if you tell the press you want to sign or sell a player, the player (and fans) will expect it to happen. And programming that type of feature into a chat bot will require the chatbot to actually grasp the context of the option, rather than just have it for immersion. I mean, even a big thing such as ChatGTP does some really poor stuff at times (one news article here was regarding it answering that a mass murderer was a national hero...). So having the chatbot to understand the context would be key, and I think that technology is still a ways off...

[iAlwaysWin]

Your responses are so black and white, you either pick the right one or you completely upset the player. Theres also not many right options out of how many? to come to a compromise, theres only ever like 1 or 2 right responses to keep the player on side out of like 10 or more options.

[Maviarab]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

To be fair, I can't really see any way of making press conferences interesting. My previous suggestion to it was to limit it to 2 questions max for most, and only have longer for special occasions (finals, league decider, rival matches, etc).

I can agree with that heh...

As for the chatbots, I didn't mean within FM, I meant having worked on them for many years 'myself', I understand the time that would go into say, for example, expanding report/press conference questions to say a thousand different ones, to avoid the repetition, every...single...match, over and over again.  Could be such an interesting and varied system but again, I appreciate and accept the huge time-sink involved in this.

However, this comes back to many other things, implement a system properly, well expanded, or...really just don't bother because no feature/system is always better than a half-baked one.

[du Garbandier]

For the press conferences, some AI would be useful -- so that the individual journalists learn, over time, what kind of answers the manager gives, and adjust accordingly. My last season I was getting hammered repeatedly with questions about a player out on loan, with no real prospects of breaking into the first team -- totally irrelevant to the context, like the journos think I've got nothing better to do than shoot the breeze with them all day.

That kind of nuance, though, would take a considerable investment of programmer-hours to implement, and I dare say people feel that more directly game-related issues are a higher priority.

[Chooxen]

It's not just the dialogue sounding childish at times, the whole dialogue system is quite poor.

Often the options I'm presented with are insufficient. If the team perform badly, there's always a question where my only answers are to admit it's all my fault. Like, I can't deflect or throw the players or refs under the bus like managers do every day.

AI reactions are often bizarre as well. Like you say well done today to a player and they act like you've just slapped their mother. You apologise and they get angrier. Interactions do not resemble those of rational human beings.

In general, I have my assistant do as much of this stuff as possible, even if it means losing some kind of morale advantage. It's just too labourious, random and repetitive to bother with.

[du Garbandier]

Yes, half-time talks especially, but also the group comments -- defence, midfield, attack -- are very poor. Again, a bit of AI training could give a more realistic assessment of a player's morale in the context of his career as well as the match. Young nervous player, experienced unmotivated player,  guy who wants to impress, guy who wants out, etc.

[benjawi.]

Dialogues do need an overhaul. There's times where all the options are essentially saying the same thing just different ways. Like every answer is basically saying yes to a player. Where's the no option? I think one example is I select ask an agent about availability and there's no option to say something like "all of that is well out of my price range". My max wage is £1k a week. Barely have any money. Agent tells me the player wants £8k a week. I either accept, tell them to lower it or stall. Why isn't there a "I can't get anywhere close to that so we're done here". My options are reply or just end chat without saying anything. But every dialogue should have a yes or no scenario rather than positive or negative, because reading some of the negatives they're still saying the essentially the same thing as the positive ones. Next time I find the one I'm thinking off I'll post it.

[Sunstrikuuu]

Player's mad after dropping a 5.7 and being fined.  And I can only start the exchange with "I hear you wanted to talk?  Let's go!"

LET ME TELL HIM HE'S TERRIBLE AND IF HE DOESN'T IMPROVE I'M GOING TO CANCEL HIS STUPID CONTRACT, because he's terrible and if he doesn't improve I'm going to cancel his stupid contract!  

[chemik]

Quote

 

Glad you brought this topic up.  Been playing FM for 20 years.  When they introduced the dialogue options I was excited.  The fact that they can't hire someone over 15 to figure out how to do them for the past decade is brutal.  My problems with them:

1. When a player comes to you saying they want to start more games, one option needs to be, "I'm rotating because you're tired and at a high risk of injury since our games are tight".  Or, "I want you to play in these Cup games because they are critical to our objectives as a club which means I need to rest you in a couple of our worthless league games". And their response needs to be "I totally get it.  Thanks", not "this is insulting, I demand to be traded!".

2. Team talks during losing streaks.  Every option is not at all what I would tell my team in real life.  Where is the, "You are better than this and not playing up to your abilities, if any of you sluggards start complaining about playing time, you're getting fined and benched".  Actually what I would recommend more is pulling the captains aside and telling them "Say what you need to, but make sure the team knows that if they don't start improving, everybody's playing time is on the line"

3. The one that angers me the most by far.  "Fans want to know why you didn't pull player X"  The 2 answers I would give IRL would always be "Yes, they were terrible but I had already used all of my subs for the other terrible or injured players" or "I agree that they played very poorly but our bench depth because of injuries meant I didn't have anyone to put in"

4. To that extent, PLEASE tell the clueless press that in conferences they need to have some knowledge that ALL of my star players are injured so any number of questions around how injuries are playing a part are appropriate.  What isn't is acting like the team is not destroyed by injuries.

5.  When a players comes asking for a new contract, I'd kill to have the option "Are you serious, have YOU been watching you play lately?, you're lucky I don't cut your wages"

[du Garbandier]

5 hours ago, chemik said:

why you didn't pull player X

Yeah those substitution questions are really frustrating, especially when several players played poorly and they pick on one. I usually just No Comment those now.

[gunnerfan]

I just discovered a new one. One of my young players is angry at me for not keeping a promise I never made to "convince him to sign a new contract". The notation on his "happiness" screen includes "(In the public domain)", which I assume means that it's something he read in the media. much like all the transfer rumors I see about players I'm chasing whom I have no interest in. Naturally, there is no way in the game to engage the player to resolve the problem. No choice but to transfer him out.

Edited February 12, 2023 by gunnerfan

[jc1]

Sign a new player and get asked if he'll become a legend at the club, what?

 

16 year old signs pro contract, next presser I get asked if he'll be involved in the next game, what? He has a CA of 60 and is just starting his career.

 

Presser for next match and I get questions about a youngster out on loan,  what has this got to do with the next game?

[Sunstrikuuu]

15 hours ago, gunnerfan said:

I just discovered a new one. One of my young players is angry at me for not keeping a promise I never made to "convince him to sign a new contract". The notation on his "happiness" screen includes "(In the public domain)", which I assume means that it's something he read in the media. much like all the transfer rumors I see about players I'm chasing whom I have no interest in. Naturally, there is no way in the game to engage the player to resolve the problem. No choice but to transfer him out.

If I'm not mistaken, In the Public Domain means that the reason for his unhappiness is known to the general public.  He's talking to the press about it, in other words.

[gunnerfan]

11 hours ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

If I'm not mistaken, In the Public Domain means that the reason for his unhappiness is known to the general public.  He's talking to the press about it, in other words.

So, he went to the press to complain about me breaking a promise I never made. And here I thought the player interaction module couldn't get any worse.

[du Garbandier]

Another thought about stupid press conferences: if you're in a country whose language you don't speak, you get asked about it at your first presser, and then forever after the exchanges are all as though you speak the language perfectly. There ought to be a simulation of language difficulties. 

[du Garbandier]

Meanwhile, IRL, just saw this:

Ange Postecoglou - “Mate, I don't sit there listening to other manager's press conferences. There's 10 other managers in the league or whatever and if you think I spend my time sitting there wondering if each of them have something to say about...

Ask me about Aberdeen tomorrow, ask me about the game tomorrow, ask me about our training.

But asking me about what another manager has said in reference to another game altogether is just not on my radar so why I'd need to comment on it I've got no idea."

What's probably clear is I should have taken another week off”

Ange Postecoglou response when asked about Livingston manager David Martindale's and his thoughts on The Rangers squad depth and then Michael Beale's claims that they were on par with the Scottish champions

 

[Maviarab]

1 hour ago, du Garbandier said:

Meanwhile, IRL, just saw this:

Ange Postecoglou - “Mate, I don't sit there listening to other manager's press conferences. There's 10 other managers in the league or whatever and if you think I spend my time sitting there wondering if each of them have something to say about...

Ask me about Aberdeen tomorrow, ask me about the game tomorrow, ask me about our training.

But asking me about what another manager has said in reference to another game altogether is just not on my radar so why I'd need to comment on it I've got no idea."

What's probably clear is I should have taken another week off”

Ange Postecoglou response when asked about Livingston manager David Martindale's and his thoughts on The Rangers squad depth and then Michael Beale's claims that they were on par with the Scottish champions

 

Heh that's great.

[Gunblade]

11 hours ago, du Garbandier said:

Meanwhile, IRL, just saw this:

Ange Postecoglou - “Mate, I don't sit there listening to other manager's press conferences. There's 10 other managers in the league or whatever and if you think I spend my time sitting there wondering if each of them have something to say about...

Ask me about Aberdeen tomorrow, ask me about the game tomorrow, ask me about our training.

But asking me about what another manager has said in reference to another game altogether is just not on my radar so why I'd need to comment on it I've got no idea."

What's probably clear is I should have taken another week off”

Ange Postecoglou response when asked about Livingston manager David Martindale's and his thoughts on The Rangers squad depth and then Michael Beale's claims that they were on par with the Scottish champions

 

If only we got something like that as a reply option, I'd select it every time. Which, I guess would still make it pointless if they continue to keep asking the same question every week...

[thehig2]

Press conferences are bad & need an overhaul, but at least you can just set them to your assistant and forget about them.

Board Interactions are infuriating, there is next to no room for negotiation with them.

When you get your vision they rarely alter anything, then there is the issue I made a thread about of boards halting your development so you can't leave them.

 

Then player interactions are just the worse, too often your in a position were what you need to say isn't an option.

A save I had a few months ago, a player was complaining he wanted to leave because he wanted to play champions football and realistically that isn't going to happen here.

There wasn't an option to say, "errr you know were top of the league with 5 games to go right ? " 

[Sunstrikuuu]

2 hours ago, thehig2 said:

Press conferences are bad & need an overhaul, but at least you can just set them to your assistant and forget about them.

Board Interactions are infuriating, there is next to no room for negotiation with them.

When you get your vision they rarely alter anything, then there is the issue I made a thread about of boards halting your development so you can't leave them.

Board interactions are so completely pointless I forget they exist.  My favorites are the ones where they turn you down, but say they'll consider it if you put forward a compelling case, and then no matter which button you press they tell you to stop wasting their time and the dialogue ends.  It's honestly the single worst feature I've ever seen in a video game.  It's like the old Warcraft III custom maps where the first person to click on something lost.

They're especially fun when you have six months on your contract and an A+ Unbelievable rating which you can't use as leverage at all.

[numbas2]

I love this thread. But also infuriates me because it's so true! 

[du Garbandier]

5 hours ago, thehig2 said:

...play champions football...

oh yeah and when he goes, it's to a club that's nowhere near the European competitions...

[thehig2]

5 hours ago, du Garbandier said:

oh yeah and when he goes, it's to a club that's nowhere near the European competitions...

It's beyond infuriating.

 

This is the one thing I've wanted overhauled and fixed, it's been the same for nearly 10 years now 

[Swindon69]

On 11/02/2023 at 11:48, chemik said:

Glad you brought this topic up.  Been playing FM for 20 years.  When they introduced the dialogue options I was excited.  The fact that they can't hire someone over 15 to figure out how to do them for the past decade is brutal.  My problems with them:

1. When a player comes to you saying they want to start more games, one option needs to be, "I'm rotating because you're tired and at a high risk of injury since our games are tight".  Or, "I want you to play in these Cup games because they are critical to our objectives as a club which means I need to rest you in a couple of our worthless league games". And their response needs to be "I totally get it.  Thanks", not "this is insulting, I demand to be traded!".

2. Team talks during losing streaks.  Every option is not at all what I would tell my team in real life.  Where is the, "You are better than this and not playing up to your abilities, if any of you sluggards start complaining about playing time, you're getting fined and benched".  Actually what I would recommend more is pulling the captains aside and telling them "Say what you need to, but make sure the team knows that if they don't start improving, everybody's playing time is on the line"

3. The one that angers me the most by far.  "Fans want to know why you didn't pull player X"  The 2 answers I would give IRL would always be "Yes, they were terrible but I had already used all of my subs for the other terrible or injured players" or "I agree that they played very poorly but our bench depth because of injuries meant I didn't have anyone to put in"

4. To that extent, PLEASE tell the clueless press that in conferences they need to have some knowledge that ALL of my star players are injured so any number of questions around how injuries are playing a part are appropriate.  What isn't is acting like the team is not destroyed by injuries.

5.  When a players comes asking for a new contract, I'd kill to have the option "Are you serious, have YOU been watching you play lately?, you're lucky I don't cut your wages"

Point 3 really drives me nuts.

[du Garbandier]

Ange again: "I'm the manager, I'm not a fan. Our supporters don't expect me to have the same emotion going into a big game. They don't want me to be nervous or anxious or angry.... they want me to be under control & make sure I am preparing the team."

Makes me wonder if the Scottish press are using FM questions for a laugh.

[autohoratio]

1 hour ago, du Garbandier said:

Ange again: "I'm the manager, I'm not a fan. Our supporters don't expect me to have the same emotion going into a big game. They don't want me to be nervous or anxious or angry.... they want me to be under control & make sure I am preparing the team."

Makes me wonder if the Scottish press are using FM questions for a laugh.

If any Scottish reporters happen to be reading this thread, they should embrace the FM journalism and ask Ange ahead of the next Old Firm in April (third from last matchday) "Is there a team that you consider to be favorites to be relegated this season?" or "Ally McCoist has suggested that your team does not have what it takes to stay up this season. Do you agree?", and then a few questions later follow it up with "The public demand to hear a proper answer from you." 

[Chooxen]

1 hour ago, autohoratio said:

If any Scottish reporters happen to be reading this thread, they should embrace the FM journalism and ask Ange ahead of the next Old Firm in April (third from last matchday) "Is there a team that you consider to be favorites to be relegated this season?" or "Ally McCoist has suggested that your team does not have what it takes to stay up this season. Do you agree?", and then a few questions later follow it up with "The public demand to hear a proper answer from you." 

The bit where they demand a proper answer always annoys me. When have you ever heard a journo speak like that to a manager? Imagine them pulling it with Ange...

[gunnerfan]

4 hours ago, du Garbandier said:

Makes me wonder if the Scottish press are using FM questions for a laugh.

LOL!!!

[du Garbandier]

8 hours ago, Chooxen said:

The bit where they demand a proper answer...

I thought of putting up a poll: did anyone, ever, change their answer when confronted with this? Sometimes I get it over two or three numbskull questions in a single presser, and I have never, ever, given a response other than "no comment"

[gunnerfan]

4 hours ago, du Garbandier said:

I thought of putting up a poll: did anyone, ever, change their answer when confronted with this? Sometimes I get it over two or three numbskull questions in a single presser, and I have never, ever, given a response other than "no comment"

That’s what I do. I’ve been tempted of late to walk out instead, in the hope that might change things up, but it would likely only sully my reputation with the press. 
 

Pressers may not be the most ridiculous interactions in FM, but they are far and away the most tiresome.

[Libertine13]

The interactions with players are so poor and I think most could be remedied by you, as the manager, being able to issue ultimatums/targets for players.

For instance, when you bring up the fact a player has trained poorly a second time and the player insists they've made an effort to improve (when they clearly haven't) you should be able to tell them you expect a certain training rating in the next training update or you'll be dropping them. 

Another would be when a player comes to you for a new contract and you can say something along the lines of "nothing is handed out for free" and they ask what they can do. Instead of learning a new role or whatever rubbish is there you should be able to tell them you expect an average rating of X in the next 5 games or so and you'll get down to negotiations.

I think there's potential to be hand in making the player interactions more interactive.

 

[Maviarab]

53 minutes ago, gunnerfan said:

That’s what I do. I’ve been tempted of late to walk out instead, in the hope that might change things up, but it would likely only sully my reputation with the press. 
 

Pressers may not be the most ridiculous interactions in FM, but they are far and away the most tiresome.

it doesn't affect your reputation...don't ask how know lol.

[du Garbandier]

One I get with player interactions is the young ones who want to leave for something "better", i.e. a more prominent squad status. I ask what would persuade this fringe player to stay and he says he wants to be "important", or he wants me to build the team around him. For the latter, I'd just like *laughs out loud* as an option. For the former I wish I could say that a) I'm not going to call you important until you are, and b) that won't happen overnight but you have the talent to get there over the next couple of seasons.

[Robioto]

I don't save scum matches or anything in the game for that matter...except the lottery and sheer randomness of player interaction. It just doesn't work and never really has.

[Andy1979]

It need removing from the game imo.  

[Maviarab]

15 hours ago, Andy1979 said:

It need removing from the game imo.  

Exactly this.  Fix them, make them good, more expanded and realistic, or ditch them.  Same with anything really, do it right or not at all because half-assed is worse than nothing at all.

[Chooxen]

I just told my striker I thought his form was good after a big hattrick at the weekend. He was upset and told me we had different ideas of what good form was. Told him, okay, let's just leave it there. No. He can't let this go quietly. He's furious.

 

Who coded this? It's not a one-off, it happens like maybe 1 in 5 times I congratulate an in-form player for being in-form. They get offended and there's no option that assuages them. What band of bizarre schizophrenics have I employed here?

[du Garbandier]

20 minutes ago, Chooxen said:

Who coded this?

That's why I never praise players

[gunnerfan]

I never praise a player's form. I praise game performances of 7.7 or higher. Same with training.

[albanie.]

3 hours ago, gunnerfan said:

I never praise a player's form. I praise game performances of 7.7 or higher. Same with training.

I'll do 7.3 and above or 6.5 or lower. It's really annoying when I know a player has had a bad game but because the stats have somehow worked out they were a 6.8, I daren't speak to them about it.

18 hours ago, Chooxen said:

I just told my striker I thought his form was good after a big hattrick at the weekend. He was upset and told me we had different ideas of what good form was. Told him, okay, let's just leave it there. No. He can't let this go quietly. He's furious.

 

Who coded this? It's not a one-off, it happens like maybe 1 in 5 times I congratulate an in-form player for being in-form. They get offended and there's no option that assuages them. What band of bizarre schizophrenics have I employed here?

If they disagree with you, never continue the conversation and risk making it worse. Just click 'end chat' in the top right. Apparently, whoever coded it thinks that just legging it away from the individual is the best way to deescalate a situation.

It's pretty horrendous that SI's only improvement to this feature over the last few years was adding in gestures that, as far as I've been able to tell, make literally no difference to the interaction. *Throws water bottle*

Edited March 5, 2023 by albanie.

[Daniel Evensen]

I agree that the dialogue in Football Manager is a huge issue.  It's one of the few parts of this game that I honestly feel needs to be completely rethought and rewritten.

I do want to note, however, that Football Manager is unique among simulation games in having so much dialogue between the human player and various NPCs.  I'm unaware of any sports game that does anything even remotely like this.  OOTP, which is the closest comparison I can think of, doesn't even allow you to tell your pitcher to calm down - much less to negotiate directly with agents, hold press conferences, and so on.

The idea behind these NPC interactions is fantastic, and is one of the reasons why I've concluded Football Manager is actually an RPG.

Having said that, though, no RPG would have success for long with such dry and repetitive NPC interactions.  If it really wants to see FM meet its potential, SI needs to focus on improving NPC interactions as if this game were an RPG.  As much fun as match engine improvements are, the real immersion comes from all the in-game interactions — and that immersion is broken when the interactions make absolutely no sense.

[eXistenZ]

Honestly, its why i keep the editor activated. they are just so nonsensical so often

Player has a 6.0 in his last game
"You need to start playing to a higher level"
"what do you mean, my game was excellent. do you need glasses? You really upset me, i cant let this slide"

 

I even had one guy being furious when asking for a new contract... lke dude, did your wires get crossed?

[USASoundersFan]

What caused FM to no longer feel immersive to me was the incorporation of these interactions several editions ago. They're just not realistic in so many ways, and there are so many times when my natural response is not any of the options given to me.

[phantombandit]

'You did great last game'.

'I AM FURIOUS ABOUT YOUR TREATMENT OF ME. I WILL NOT LET THIS GO EASILY!'.

Edited March 7, 2023 by phantombandit