Southgate: Episode IV - A New Hope

[Smallen]

23 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Rice isn't on the level of Rodri or Kroos, so if people think he is then yeah they're overrating him 

He's better than both of them without the ball. Like, miles better than Kroos without the ball too. 

In terms of value on the ball then yeah, he's not near those two; but players only have the ball on average 3 minutes a game and that's why Rice cost £100m+. He brings something very different to either of those two.

I wish we had a good option at 6 so that we could play Rice at 8.

Edited June 20 by Smallen

[Barry Cartman]

27 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

If he’d signed for say City or Liverpool 4-5 years ago I think he’s already better than Rodri or Kroos. 

and people are mocking him for saying fans overrate him  

[PaulHartman71]

10 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

and people are mocking him for saying fans overrate him  

 

Rodri's had 4-5 years under Pep and his coaching team. If in an alternative scenario where City signed Rice and West Ham signed Rodri at the same time I think Rice ends up the better player at the moment. 

Rice's superior physical attributes means his peak is higher IMO.

[Baptista_8]

53 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

If he’d signed for say City or Liverpool 4-5 years ago I think he’s already better than Rodri or Kroos. 

That's a huge call and very unlikely.

[kopsy101]

I've noticed that Rice does get a pass when he isn't having a great game or gets beaten. He is a brilliant player though, not quite Rodri but not far off. 

13 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Rice's superior physical attributes means his peak is higher IMO.

What physical attributes is this? The only one I can think of is that he's probably faster.

[PaulHartman71]

4 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

I've noticed that Rice does get a pass when he isn't having a great game or gets beaten. He is a brilliant player though, not quite Rodri but not far off. 

What physical attributes is this? The only one I can think of is that he's probably faster.

Rice has a better work rate and even though I think Rodri is the same height or maybe a few inches taller Rice just seems stronger than him and Rice’s legs seem really big. Like that trademark tackle/interception thing Rice does using his legs from behind someone I don’t think many other 6’s or 8’s could do without fouling the player or not pulling it off but Rice always seems to manage it due to how long his legs are. 

Rodri is better than him at basically everything on the ball, especially passing range, controlling the game and finishing etc but these are all things that Rice can be taught and would’ve been better at if he’d spent the last 5 seasons playing for a side like Liverpool or City who always have the ball and have had the best coaches and managers in Europe.

I might be wrong and he was always that good, but I feel like the Rodri of the last 2 seasons or so has a case for being the best or most effective player in the PL or maybe even the world.  But I don’t think he was at that level when City first signed him personally. 

[The_jagster]

3 hours ago, VP. said:

I think he just needs to not be English for someone like james McClean to rate him higher.

Not watched the video so don't know what was actually said but I've never heard Rice being rated higher than the two players mentioned.

Or, not have ditched Ireland for England which I think is the real reason

[WillHoward42]

[The_jagster]

Why is Kroos going through his "Oh, actually Pirlo is really good" phase ATM now he's way past 30? At various points during Germany or Madrid being soundly beaten he's come in for criticism before.

Rodri is better than Rice because he can do it all but Rice offers something that pretty much nobody else does. He isn't an elite passer but his defending and ball-carrying makes him as good as virtually anyone else.

[VP.]

3 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Or, not have ditched Ireland for England which I think is the real reason

Yep, once I watched the video you could tell they simply don't like Rice after the bloke at the end called him a 'poor man's Roy Keane'.

 

[GunmaN1905]

7 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

Rice because he can do it all but Rice offers something that pretty much nobody else does. He isn't an elite passer but his defending and ball-carrying makes him as good as virtually anyone else.

I'm sure no midfielder in the world can replicate Rice's amazing output.

[Barry Cartman]

I thought McClean was being dramatic, but now I totally agree with him 

[Pukey]

Rice is a completely different player to Kroos so no idea why you'd compare the two

[m_fenton]

1 hour ago, WillHoward42 said:

<meme>

Can't see this scoring highly with Rob I'm afraid.

[skybluedave]

I quite like that meme. My favourite so far. 

[Rob1981]

I will allow it, although it’s not specifically a Southgate meme. And Tribbiani has a lovely innocence there, speaking for all of us when we behave like big kids every time the international tournaments roll around. Those from all nations who continue to believe their team might finally win, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Life affirming stuff.

[kopsy101]

2 hours ago, The_jagster said:

Why is Kroos going through his "Oh, actually Pirlo is really good" phase ATM now he's way past 30? At various points during Germany or Madrid being soundly beaten he's come in for criticism before.

Retiring and fresh off another CL will blow things up.

[EdBed]

To be fair to Kroos, he has won the odd trophy here and there.

[m_fenton]

2 hours ago, skybluedave said:

I quite like that meme. My favourite so far. 

1 hour ago, Rob1981 said:

I will allow it, although it’s not specifically a Southgate meme. And Tribbiani has a lovely innocence there, speaking for all of us when we behave like big kids every time the international tournaments roll around. Those from all nations who continue to believe their team might finally win, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Life affirming stuff.

Fair, I've misjudged the national mood.

[adhikapp]

Southgate never learns from past experience. Not only as a manager, but as a player and as a fan of England.

 

2002: Eriksson brought Beckham who was basically injured the whole tournament, and he underperformed for his standards. At least Guehi has been one of the better players for England in this Euros, otherwise, this would be the same thing. Gareth was even in the squad!

2004: Scholes had to play out wide to accomodate Lampard and Gerrard. He had Joe Cole & Dyer in the squad who could easily play on the left. Or change the formation to a 4-3-3 or whatever. Sounds like cramming in Trent and Foden into a team so he doesn't need to drop Walker, and Bellingham.

2006: Eriksson banked on bringing an injured Rooney who eventually did **** all. Sounds like what he's doing with Shaw now.

2008 is just dumb on McClaren. How did ManUtd & Chelsea reach the Champions League final with a combined 10 English outfield starters that match and not even reach the Euros is inexcusable. There's nothing to learn here from Southgate other than do better than his former boss at Middlesbrough.

2010: Capello banked on bringing an injured Barry, and was the obvious weak link in that team when they got battered by Germany. 

2012: So many out of form players like Downing and Carroll made the squad. This was Maguire in 2022, and now Trippier in 2024.

2014: Playing Rooney out of position on the left wing, leaving Baines exposed on the left flank vs Italy & Uruguay. Stinks of Foden and Trippier here, and thank God England were "only" playing against Serbia & Denmark.

2016: Only brings 1 out-an-out winger but playing a 4-3-3 in the whole squad (Sterling if you're wondering). Like bringing only 1 left back while playing a 4-3-3... and an injured one at that. Also Hodgson taking his sweet ass time to change things up by lumping all his strikers on the pitch shows passivity, and looking clueless.

2018: Gareth's first tournament as England coach. Overperformed to reach the semis, and even had an early lead. But he panicked and immediately parked the bus. Eventually lost. But okay, it's his first tournament, he'll learn right? Croatia was beatable that day as well.

2020(1): Nope. Reaches the final against Italy, scores an early goal, then proceeds to park the bus again. Final goes to pens, well it's a lottery... but then puts 19-y.o. rookie Saka as the 5th taker?! Did he not learn from HIS OWN penalty miss in 1996?!

2022: Despite usually performing well for England, Mount had a stinker in the first two matches, yet he still gave him game time in the next matches. Also, subbing on Sterling (who just landed after flying back to Qatar from a personal issue, iirc hasn't trained back again with the squad) ahead of both Rashford (England's joint top scorer at the World Cup) and Grealish was "surprising". This isn't the first time he has been very lax with his subs.

2024: Well I've seen nothing to believe that Southgate has learned from his past mistakes at all. Unbalanced squad, selecting injured players, still relying on out of form players, playing players out of position just to fit them in, and poor subs choices. And it's not like he doesn't have options. Even if by some miracle England does win it all, it's better if he left.

[EdBed]

22 minutes ago, adhikapp said:

Gareth was even in the squad!

Initially I was thinking that this is an institutional memory thing, and that replacing the entire management every so often means that you have none and are bound to repeat mistakes. 

However you're right on this particular point, and Southgate frequently cites his personal experience as a strength in helping the players mentally. 

[Baptista_8]

This isn't my content, but is spot on IMO

[Rebs]

I'd go with next game:

Pickford 

Tripper (Shaw if fit)

Guehi

Stones

Walker

Rice

Bellingham

Gordon

Foden

Saka

Kane

 

Wharton, Palmer, Watkins coming on if needed. 

[Marc Albrighton]

Doesn't matter what 11 he puts out its still going to be a rigid safety first set up that's sucks all life out of anyone who watches.

[Citizen Sandman]

What am I reading here? Rodri is world class. 

England have no identity and play so condensed. Honestly only thing Ancelotti and Pep as dual coaches could make them work

[av3ry]

He'd never last in club management managing like this. Argyle hired a former England youth manager who played a very similar way and my god it was terrible.

I'd try something like...

Pickford

Walker--Stones--Guehi--Gomez

Mainoo--Rice--Bellingham

Saka--Kane/Watkins/Foden--Palmer

Walker overlaps, Gomez Tucks in. Try to attack in a 2-3-5 like...

Stones--Guehi

Mainoo--Rice--Gomez

Walker--Saka--Striker--Bellingham--Palmer

We've got the best set of attacking players in the tournament, who can out-score anyone else. Unleash them.

 

[Bigwig]

2 hours ago, adhikapp said:

2020(1): Nope. Reaches the final against Italy, scores an early goal, then proceeds to park the bus again. Final goes to pens, well it's a lottery... but then puts 19-y.o. rookie Saka as the 5th taker?! Did he not learn from HIS OWN penalty miss in 1996?!

Euro 2020 was the one that annoyed me the most as it was probably the first tournament since Euro 96 that I thought we genuinely could have won it. The stars seemed to align with the bigger teams dropping out and we were favourites for the final but then did what Southgate does.

I thought he should have went after that and could have left with his head held high, but we’re somehow still here four years later with the same mistakes being made over and over.

The worst thing is he’s nailed in to get a knighthood for services towards trying your best at the end of his stint because we love being the plucky runner-up for some bizarre reason. 

[Barnzy]

On 19/06/2024 at 16:23, Bootador said:

Should play Saka left back, it's getting desperate 

You joke, but I was thinking this - walker stones and guehi as a back 3 with Saka and Trent as wing backs - Rice +1 other and the Foden and Bellingham behind Kane 

[VP.]

Should change the thread title to Attack Of The Clones as its the same ***** over and over now.

Also Saka is terrible at LWB, think him and Foden swapping sides would probably work better overall for our attacking play as you'd imagine Foden/Walker to have have good understanding with each other plus Foden is very left footed so would be coming inside on to his natural foot.

Saka would give us more width on the left plus he is strong on his right meaning he could come inside when the space is there. Would also help Trippier out defensively though admittedly he's not done much wrong so far.

[Butts]

After the post match press conferences last night he simply has to go, he's ****ed it and he knows it. We are still very much in this tournament so get him gone now.

[sc91]

England should do an Ivory Coast. 

[Barry Cartman]

People say Rice Bellingham Foden middle 3 won't work, well we're 2 games in and the alternative isn't working, and taking out Trent isn't going to fix anything, they'll still have the Trippier, Bellingham, Foden, Kane problem

Get Gordon in for Trent, get Foden in the middle, let Bellingham run around the pitch which he wants to do, and push Stones into midfield on the ball to support Rice 

 

[Dale0718]

1 hour ago, VP. said:

Should change the thread title to Attack Of The Clones as its the same ***** over and over now.

Also Saka is terrible at LWB, think him and Foden swapping sides would probably work better overall for our attacking play as you'd imagine Foden/Walker to have have good understanding with each other plus Foden is very left footed so would be coming inside on to his natural foot.

Saka would give us more width on the left plus he is strong on his right meaning he could come inside when the space is there. Would also help Trippier out defensively though admittedly he's not done much wrong so far.

Bit ironic when it's the one thing he doesn't do  

[Darren Moores Mum]

Things definitely seem different to previous tournaments, even if there were lumbering performances at them as well. We can usually be boring, but from the off yesterday it was just bad. Within seconds we'd made a few slack passes, and that continued for the rest of the game. I've not seen that level of play and lack of control for a long time.

Dull is one thing, but that standard is going to get taken apart by the top sides, or even ones that put in a decent performance. Serbia and Denmark weren't good themselves, which helped.

[Rob1981]

7 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

People say Rice Bellingham Foden middle 3 won't work

It's not so much that it "won't work".  More that Bellingham has won games and turned in loads of MOM performances from that 10 position.  You are moving him back to a position where he is less likely to be a match winner, so that we can give Foden licence to play a free role... when Foden hasn't really impacted many England games wherever he's played.

So if Foden doesn't own that position and dictate the game, we have compromised Bellingham for nothing.

Got to do something though.

[oche balboa]

Maybe drop Foden 

[eenie]

44 minutes ago, Butts said:

After the post match press conferences last night he simply has to go, he's ****ed it and he knows it. We are still very much in this tournament so get him gone now.

This take is so hot it melted my computer.

You do not sack your manager 2 games into a tournament when you are in pole position to qualify from your group.

[TalkSport]

TAA - Stones - Guehi - Gomez

Bellingham - Rice - Foden

Saka - Kane - Gordon

That’s just what I’d would go with. TAA can step into midfield, or even Stones, to provide Rice with additional support to build from the back. Foden and Bellingham can play in central areas and we have width out left. Gomez for me would offer better physical presence than Trippier too, and playing in that LCB  position if TAA stepped in and we went 3-2-4-1

Players are there. Not even seen Stones step into the midfield this tournament with the ball yet. Like last night, him playing those passes in 93rd min was the furtherest I think I’ve seen him with the ball  

Handbrake on / players not coached to know what to do. People will point to ‘see, this is what happens when you pick names and not systems’, when those names (with one change for me at LB) can play, if the coach has anything about them. No wonder Ben White sacked this off.

[TalkSport]

16 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It's not so much that it "won't work".  More that Bellingham has won games and turned in loads of MOM performances from that 10 position.  You are moving him back to a position where he is less likely to be a match winner, so that we can give Foden licence to play a free role... when Foden hasn't really impacted many England games wherever he's played.

So if Foden doesn't own that position and dictate the game, we have compromised Bellingham for nothing.

Got to do something though.

Bellingham played in that disciplined box to box CM role at the World Cup. We were largely good then. He’s scored against Serbia / Belgium this calendar year in that 10 role, but we haven’t looked good for it at all. 

Foden better games for England been RW. LW I agree he shouldn’t be playing, but then he should be central. As we are no better with someone like TAA/Gallagher needing to be there, and can’t be any worse. 

Had plenty of times to try it, but it’s too late now. So changes will be Foden out, and that one CM. 

[kopsy101]

1 minute ago, TalkSport said:

TAA - Stones - Guehi - Gomez

Bellingham - Rice - Foden

Saka - Kane - Gordon

That’s just what I’d would go with. TAA can step into midfield, or even Stones, to provide Rice with additional support to build from the back. Foden and Bellingham can play in central areas and we have width out left. Gomez for me would offer better physical presence than Trippier too, and playing in that LCB  position if TAA stepped in and we went 3-2-4-1

Players are there. Not even seen Stones step into the midfield this tournament with the ball yet. Like last night, him playing those passes in 93rd min was the furtherest I think I’ve seen him with the ball  

Handbrake on / players not coached to know what to do. People will point to ‘see, this is what happens when you pick names and not systems’, when those names (with one change for me at LB) can play, if the coach has anything about them. No wonder Ben White sacked this off.

Can we forward this to Gareth? Although, he's not dropping Trippier or Walker unless he thinks they need the rest. I think this could work, but only if England are confident.

Watching Argentina last night and they're just so comfortable taking risks and confidently executing well. The total opposite to England. That's mindset and mentality. 

[Baptista_8]

14 minutes ago, eenie said:

This take is so hot it melted my computer.

You do not sack your manager 2 games into a tournament when you are in pole position to qualify from your group.

Why not? He's not gonna win it is he?

[titchuk]

The idea of sacking Southgate is ridiculous, not only because you don't sack managers when you're unbeaten and top of your group but also he's the best England manager we've had in my lifetime.

We've tried the won-everything foreign managers, the experienced English managers, the up-and-coming English coaches and he's the only one who's achieved anything with the team. In fact I'd probably say the 2018 World Cup was the first time I've enjoyed watching an England team (I was a bit young for Euro 96).

He seems like a good man, he deserves to go out of his own accord. 

[Barry Cartman]

48 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

It's not so much that it "won't work".  More that Bellingham has won games and turned in loads of MOM performances from that 10 position.  You are moving him back to a position where he is less likely to be a match winner, so that we can give Foden licence to play a free role... when Foden hasn't really impacted many England games wherever he's played.

So if Foden doesn't own that position and dictate the game, we have compromised Bellingham for nothing.

Got to do something though.

Bellingham does not want to play in that role behind Kane, you surely can see that? He wants to be all over the pitch affecting the game, Foden wants to be in the pocket receiving the ball and turning on defenders like he did 3 or 4 times in yesterdays game. I don't buy into this you're asking Bellingham to be less effective, he simply isn't playing that position whilst Foden and that left hand side is completely compromised 

Edited June 21 by Barry Cartman

[sc91]

38 minutes ago, eenie said:

This take is so hot it melted my computer.

You do not sack your manager 2 games into a tournament when you are in pole position to qualify from your group.

Let's be fair, England are pap and are only top because Serbia and Denmark are a bit ****, not through any great endeavour. 

For them, keep Southgate? May as well fire up the plane already, going home. Get rid of him? Well, you've got a chance. 

Even as someone with no stake in England watching great players unable to string a pass together is absolutely mind boggling. He's somehow made 'Mr 8/10 every game' in Declan Rice unable to perform. 

[EnterUsernameHere]

14 minutes ago, titchuk said:

The idea of sacking Southgate is ridiculous, not only because you don't sack managers when you're unbeaten and top of your group but also he's the best England manager we've had in my lifetime.

We've tried the won-everything foreign managers, the experienced English managers, the up-and-coming English coaches and he's the only one who's achieved anything with the team. In fact I'd probably say the 2018 World Cup was the first time I've enjoyed watching an England team (I was a bit young for Euro 96).

He seems like a good man, he deserves to go out of his own accord. 

What has he achieved, exactly? 

[mrmeee17]

3 hours ago, VP. said:

Should change the thread title to Attack Of The Clones as its the same ***** over and over now.

Also Saka is terrible at LWB, think him and Foden swapping sides would probably work better overall for our attacking play as you'd imagine Foden/Walker to have have good understanding with each other plus Foden is very left footed so would be coming inside on to his natural foot.

Saka would give us more width on the left plus he is strong on his right meaning he could come inside when the space is there. Would also help Trippier out defensively though admittedly he's not done much wrong so far.

Don't actually remember Saka ever being LW for us (Arsenal) tbh. He could be terrible there too.

I'm biased but Saka was like the only player in the attacking unit who was at least ok to decent over both games. So move him from RW and we potentially become even worse than terrible, heh.

[Barry Cartman]

Bellingham heat map in La Liga

 

Foden heat map in PL

1 is clearly not playing as a No.10 for their club (or neither as Foden starts from the right)

Edited June 21 by Barry Cartman

[VP.]

10 minutes ago, mrmeee17 said:

Don't actually remember Saka ever being LW for us (Arsenal) tbh. He could be terrible there too.

I'm biased but Saka was like the only player in the attacking unit who was at least ok to decent over both games. So move him from RW and we potentially become even worse than terrible, heh.

He played there a bit in his younger days (I know he's still young  ) and will certainly offer a lot more than Foden currently is. If we're leaving Saka on the right then I think Gordon should be playing the opposite side which means dropping Foden.

 

[craigcwwe]

 

 

[eenie]

48 minutes ago, sc91 said:

Let's be fair, England are pap and are only top because Serbia and Denmark are a bit ****, not through any great endeavour. 

For them, keep Southgate? May as well fire up the plane already, going home. Get rid of him? Well, you've got a chance. 

Even as someone with no stake in England watching great players unable to string a pass together is absolutely mind boggling. He's somehow made 'Mr 8/10 every game' in Declan Rice unable to perform. 

So who comes in for the rest of the tournament? If whoever it is is going to change the style of play, formation or personnel, how long exactly do they have to bed those changes in and exactly how successful do you think that's going to be?

If your answer is "well it might be better than keeping him" then that's hardly compelling.