Southgate: Episode IV - A New Hope

[Lucas]

Wonder if they will continue being sarcastically positive on TRIF podcast now after that performance. 

[Harryseaess]

Embarrassing group stage. Such negative and boring football.

[Bliss Seeker]

17 minutes ago, Ackter said:

Has he been fired yet?

Has anyone that's achieved so little been given so much time?

Objective 1: Get to the knockouts ✅

Objective 2: win the group ✅

On the contrary, he's passed his group stage performance review handsomely. 

 

Edited June 25 by Bliss Seeker

[ceefax the cat]

Reasons to be positive:

Plenty of teams have gotten to the finals of tournaments, or won them, after a rubbish start. Historically, there's a lot to be said for peaking late.
Clean sheets / defensive solidity are a good indicator of tournament-winning potential, and so far the only goal we've conceded was an absolute pinger from 30 yards.
The route to the final looks potentially quite juicy
 

[Haguey]

16 minutes ago, Bliss Seeker said:

Objective 1: Get to the knockouts ✅

Objective 2: win the group ✅

On the contrary, he's passed his group stage performance review handsomely. 

 

Get your money on 3 LIONS returning to #1 in the charts when we BASH the Dutch 4-0 imo 

[skybluedave]

Maybe we will step it up against a good team....

[Baptista_8]

By his own admission there was little space centrally, so why don't you play a LW that actually goes on the outside!?

[iamjerome]

2 hours ago, Ackter said:

Has he been fired yet?

Has anyone that's achieved so little been given so much time?

achieved so little? has had the best results of an england manager since 1966. he deserved this tournament.

but if we don't improve dramatically - and perhaps miraculously - from here on out, this has to be his last tournament too.

[Baptista_8]

5 hours ago, iamjerome said:

achieved so little? has had the best results of an england manager since 1966. he deserved this tournament.

but if we don't improve dramatically - and perhaps miraculously - from here on out, this has to be his last tournament too.

There's no way he's deserved eight years in charge of us. It's insane.

He got to one final with home advantage and didn't win it when it was there for the taking. Semi he got us to he had an easy run. Two games against Belgium we lost, Croatia we lost. We beat Colombia (on pens) and Sweden to get there.

[arenaross]

 

 

[The_jagster]

They play a solid 4-4-2 and he's drawn someone out of position, what's the problem 

[Darius1998]

For once, he did get the subs right. They just happened to be 40 mins late (including the half-time one).

[VP.]

 

[kopsy101]

10 minutes ago, VP. said:

 

I've only seen a montage of his on Twitter, what a contrast to the opening game. 

[eenie]

11 minutes ago, VP. said:

 

Oh great, are we at the "tear them down" stage of the classic England team cycle of "Hype them up, tear them down" that the media seem to go through with pretty much every young player for England?

[oche balboa]

1 hour ago, Baptista_8 said:

There's no way he's deserved eight years in charge of us. It's insane.

He got to one final with home advantage and didn't win it when it was there for the taking. Semi he got us to he had an easy run. Two games against Belgium we lost, Croatia we lost. We beat Colombia (on pens) and Sweden to get there.

Agreed. Southgate has really flattered to deceive 

[Darren Moores Mum]

He absolutely should have gone after the last WC. It was time for a change.

[Wiggins Top Boys]

26 minutes ago, eenie said:

Oh great, are we at the "tear them down" stage of the classic England team cycle of "Hype them up, tear them down" that the media seem to go through with pretty much every young player for England?

i think you're allowed to simply criticise a performance though aren't you? everyone knows how good bellingham is

[m_fenton]

26 minutes ago, eenie said:

Oh great, are we at the "tear them down" stage of the classic England team cycle of "Hype them up, tear them down" that the media seem to go through with pretty much every young player for England?

Wouldn't say so, Bellingham was just quite rubbish.

[eenie]

I think criticising an individual performance is all well and good, I'm just a bit wary of the football media and how they love to look for scapegoats when things don't go well. Especially when those scapegoats aren't white.

And it's not about whether Bellingham is good or not, we all know he's phenomenal. It's about finding someone to blame.

[m_fenton]

Kane's got plenty of tweets about him too, don't worry.

[VP.]

48 minutes ago, eenie said:

Oh great, are we at the "tear them down" stage of the classic England team cycle of "Hype them up, tear them down" that the media seem to go through with pretty much every young player for England?

No ones criticised him, it just shows how completely ineffective he was?

Though I will add that if he wants to charge around the pitch with the arrogance he showed against Serbia trying to wind them up then he needs to be very consistent in his performances.

[Rob1981]

Christ.

Everyone just back to screaming: "WHY CAN'T THE MANAGER GET THE BEST OUT OF THESE WORLD CLASS PLAYERS THAT ARE DOING IT FOR THEIR CLUBS!"

Even though we know that the best international sides leave big players out, or ask them to play a different role.

Even I will admit it feels like a tournament too far at the moment.  Fans thinking we'd won it before we arrived.  And players that have kicked on at club level so they are even better than they were.  But then it's harder to leave people out.  Because they aren't youngsters finding their feet at international level.  By now, they are some of the best players in the world that have won multiple Premier Leagues and Champions Leagues.  And as good a "man-manager" as Southgate is, let's be real.  He's an arm-around-the-shoulder guy when you're bringing through players from West Ham and Leeds and Aston Villa and telling them they can be world beaters.  He probably isn't the best at managing big egos that are used to playing under Klopp and Pep and Ancelotti when none of them expect to be left out.

So then the manager abandons principles that made him successful.  Leaves out the likes of Rashford and Grealish and Henderson that have always done a decent job for the team and are used to playing together.  Picks vogue players that have had better club seasons, even though they don't know each other's games.  Then just chucks the best individuals out without a proper plan.  We hope that something clicks when the games start.  But when it doesn't the media turn on the players and everyone starts to hate even being there.

The parallels with 2006 are eerie.  We've even got the WAGs wandering round shopping in the black forest somewhere.

[Rob1981]

Not all doom and gloom though.  The draw has fallen kindly for us again.  One goal conceded in three games, and fewest 'shots against' conceded.  Guehi has probably been our stand-out player, even though people were worried about the defence.  We all know the mood can change completely if the next game goes your way. 

Southgate just needs to find his balls again.  Either bring Mainoo in and be bold enough to actually drop Foden and bring Gordon in.  Or move Foden to the 10, and tell Bellingham he can't carry on playing there just because he plays there for Real Madrid.

[VP.]

Pickford

TAA - Stones - Guehi - Walker

Bellingham - Rice

Saka - Foden - Gordon

Kane

[TalkSport]

2 hours ago, The_jagster said:

They play a solid 4-4-2 and he's drawn someone out of position, what's the problem 

Valid point. Then where’s Bellingham for Guehi to punch that pass into?

Actually don’t mind Kane when he does that, but it’s just not joined up with rest of team.

[aggressive minor]

1 hour ago, Darren Moores Mum said:

He absolutely should have gone after the last WC. It was time for a change.

Some of us were saying get rid after Euro 2021 and we got blasted for it. We knew!

[Crispypaul]

Interestingly this is exactly the same results as we had in Italia 90 and that didn't work out too bad

We're even likely to play a low countries team in the round of 16

[kopsy101]

34 minutes ago, VP. said:

Pickford

TAA - Stones - Guehi - Walker

Bellingham - Rice

Saka - Foden - Gordon

Kane

Out of interest, what's the thinking behind Walker at LB?

[john1]

Thought Tripper, done well at left back imo.

[Craigus89]

40 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Christ.

<snip>

We hope that something clicks when the games start.  But when it doesn't the media turn on the players and everyone starts to hate even being there.

I agree with most of what you said, except this. I'm not seeing anyone (apart from twitter morons) turning on the players. There is almost unanimous finger pointing at the manager, whether explicit or not, by pundits and everyone else. This hasn't happened before to the extent it is now. 

Even players who have played badly are on the whole being excused as there is understanding that they are being asked to play in positions or ways that they aren't used to.

[Craigus89]

1 minute ago, kopsy101 said:

Out of interest, what's the thinking behind Walker at LB?

It would become more of a 3 at the back, with TAA pushing up into midfield creating more of a 3-3-3-1. Walker is as good at LB as any of the other non-natural players who could go in there and it frees up the RB position to bring in someone who can offer something else.

[Rob1981]

6 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

I agree with most of what you said, except this. I'm not seeing anyone (apart from twitter morons) turning on the players. There is almost unanimous finger pointing at the manager, whether explicit or not, by pundits and everyone else. This hasn't happened before to the extent it is now.

Dunno, it feels like people are starting to go for the players as well. 

People have been saying Kane isn't pulling his weight.  There is that screenshot higher up where people are already trying to bring Bellingham down.  People were saying TAA couldn't play in midfield, and then Rice did an interview where he was having to defend HIM as a player, not just having to defend the manager for putting him there.

It's a pretty standard counterargument.  When one pundit blames the manager, another says: "Well, the players have got to take some responsbility as well".

Then you are into the downward spiral of negativity we have seen at loads of previous tournaments.

Edited June 26 by Rob1981

[Bliss Seeker]

They look like they don't like each other again, it's pretty disheartening to see after all the progress they've made since 2016. 

Has Gareth considered taking them all down the bar and getting everyone royally smashed yet?  

 

[Barry Cartman]

I think its clear Kane and Bellingham don't work well with each other, people argued before the tournament that you can't restrict Bellingham, well he's had 3 games in that role and he's looked good for 20 minutes, whilst Kane & Foden (plus the entire left hand side) is compromised to accommodate him 

Its either drop Bellingham next to Rice, which pretty much everyone wants to happen and is where he's spent most of his career until playing a False 9 for Real, or you drop Kane and play Bellingham at the top of the pitch with runners either side 

[Lucas]

6 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

Its either drop Bellingham next to Rice, which pretty much everyone wants to happen and is where he's spent most of his career until playing a False 9 for Real, or you drop Kane and play Bellingham at the top of the pitch with runners either side 

Honestly no reason there can’t be a plan A or B that plays to each of these strengths and you just make the hard calls to drop one of the players depending on the plan. 
 

Seems really ironic considering Southgate persisted with systems that worked in the past for the good of the team when people were really wanting him to drop certain players. 
 

Seems a no brainer to me, plus having somebody of Kane / Bellingham / Foden quality to come off the bench and change the game seems such an obvious weapon to have for the knockout games. Don’t understand this mentality of shoving players into the starting 11 and giving players practically 5 mins as subs to make an impact (Gordon). 
 

I don’t have much faith any of these things will happen (pressing high, personnel changes), and we could possibly be looking at an R16 exit. Hope I’m wrong. 

[Wiggins Top Boys]

am i wrong but nobody is expecting us to walk and win the tournament and nobody is turning on the players? this is so far from from entitled fans and media piling on? it's exasperation from completely underwhelming performances and predictable negative tactics when there is a good chance again of getting further into the tournaments. Everyone knows that it wouldn't take too much to change fortunes but the manager is stubborn and the players are getting precious, this must be down to the way that the camp is being handled and treated. the camp seem to be making this an us and them type thing when it's nowhere near that.

the mood would change fairly quickly with one decent performance, that's all it would take.

Edited June 26 by Wiggins Top Boys

[Craigus89]

7 minutes ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

am i wrong but nobody is expecting us to walk and win the tournament and nobody is turning on the players? this is so far from from entitled fans and media piling on? it's exasperation from completely underwhelming performances and predictable negative tactics when there is a good chance again of getting further into the tournaments. Everyone knows that it wouldn't take too much to change fortunes but the manager is stubborn and the players are getting precious, this must be down to the way that the camp is being handled and treated. the camp seem to be making this an us and them type thing when it's nowhere near that.

the mood would change fairly quickly with one decent performance, that's all it would take.

Agree completely. Clearly there is mis-management of the squad/camp/games, us fans just want to watch a good game of football, then very few people would be moaning. 

Going out in the quarters or semi's would be fine if we were enjoyable to watch, that is all anyone ever wants from any team.

Winning ugly is only tolerable for so long by the fans, see: Mourinho. 

Who never receives complaints even when lofty expectations aren't met? Exciting teams, see: Klopp.

[VP.]

36 minutes ago, kopsy101 said:

Out of interest, what's the thinking behind Walker at LB?

Trippier hasn't done much wrong and obviously it's not his fault he's having to play out of position but I just find he slows the pace of the game down a lot when on possession. 

Plus I think we would be more solid defensively if/when TAA goes forward with Walker there as Stones/Guehi/Walker can move across and function as a 3 as Walker does have experience playing CB though obviously on the other side. Yes he probably will get caught out positionally at times (like Trippier does) but Walker has the speed to get himself out of trouble (Trippier doesn't). 

We've not played anyone yet who has quality out wide to trouble Trippier but when we do he will look lost. If we draw the Dutch Frimpong v Trippier would be a massacre!

Edited June 26 by VP.
Missed some out

[Bigwig]

We don’t seem to have any playing style or identity.  At best I could say we play to stifle the opposition, but I can’t say whether that’s down to the (relatively) weaker opposition.

I don’t really see what we’re working on in training. We’re not a high pressing side, we don’t tiki-take, we’re not possession based or counter attacking, we’re just kinda there.

It’s like we’re just expecting players to bring their club style into the national side which doesn’t really work when they have different approaches, such as Pickford going long when others want it short.

[kopsy101]

34 minutes ago, VP. said:

Trippier hasn't done much wrong and obviously it's not his fault he's having to play out of position but I just find he slows the pace of the game down a lot when on possession. 

Plus I think we would be more solid defensively if/when TAA goes forward with Walker there as Stones/Guehi/Walker can move across and function as a 3 as Walker does have experience playing CB though obviously on the other side. Yes he probably will get caught out positionally at times (like Trippier does) but Walker has the speed to get himself out of trouble (Trippier doesn't). 

We've not played anyone yet who has quality out wide to trouble Trippier but when we do he will look lost. If we draw the Dutch Frimpong v Trippier would be a massacre!

I think Trippier, Walker or Gomez are gonna slow the pace down - Trippier least of all I'd have thought? Typing that sentence has me in utter disbelief that those are the only options.

I don't think somebody like Frimpong is the profile/calibre of player of which we start thinking about making reactive changes to. Players like Mbappe, Leao (Based on Milan vs Newcastle) yes. Trippier could deal with Frimpong as he is very switched on, as could Walker and Gomez.  

Either way, I was just curious because I've never seen Walker play LB, I've only ever seen him play RB and a couple of games at RCB. 

1 hour ago, Craigus89 said:

It would become more of a 3 at the back, with TAA pushing up into midfield creating more of a 3-3-3-1. Walker is as good at LB as any of the other non-natural players who could go in there and it frees up the RB position to bring in someone who can offer something else.

Is he though? He's probably the least comfortable on the ball, which is a bit of a problem in a new position. If anything, I'd keep Walker at RB and have TAA on the left, who could then move into midfield - If we were gonna replace Trippier at all. 

[Rob1981]

1 hour ago, Wiggins Top Boys said:

am i wrong but nobody is expecting us to walk and win the tournament and nobody is turning on the players? this is so far from from entitled fans and media piling on?

All we have heard for months now is how England's group of players are even better than they were in 2020-2022.  Because of the evidence of their club performance (Foden/Bellingham/Kane/Saka/Rice], or because we have new players coming through that are already brilliant as well (Palmer/Gordon/Watkins/Mainoo].  About how it's ours to lose and how the tag of favourites is finally justified.

So of course the context is important.  People are always going to be more critical more quickly when the expectation is higher.

You're right though.  A change of system and a decent win in the R16 and it all looks different.

I don't see how we can start either TAA or Gallagher next game.  Has to be Mainoo or Bellingham dropped deeper and then it might finally click.

[ceefax the cat]

4 hours ago, Baptista_8 said:

There's no way he's deserved eight years in charge of us. It's insane.

He got to one final with home advantage and didn't win it when it was there for the taking. Semi he got us to he had an easy run. Two games against Belgium we lost, Croatia we lost. We beat Colombia (on pens) and Sweden to get there.

It is absolutely crazy to me that anyone can consider getting to within a couple of penalties of winning a tournament with England (in between World Cup semi and quarter finals) as being a failure, home advantage or not. There are few teams in history who were so obviously superior that they can reasonably have considered not winning a tournament to be beneath them - 50's Hungary, Pelé's Brazil, Cruyff's Netherlands, Spain 2010... not a lot else, and to put any of Southgate's England squads in that category would obviously be absolutely mental. Each time, we've been in the mix of teams who, with a bit of luck, and if it happens to click, could realistically reach the final, but by no means clear favourites. Other teams have Fodens, Bellinghams and Kanes and will win nothing.

I have issues with the way England approach games and the boxy, sideways style of play they seem to lapse into when the pressure is on, but that problem is much older than Southgate, and semis / final / quarters is better than anyone else has done. The only team in this tournament that hasn't really struggled at all so far is Spain and almost never does a team play well all the way through and win it.

I'm keen to move onto the next chapter after this, and I hope whoever comes in finds a way of unleashing the potential of Foden, Bellingham, Palmer etc, but to look back at Southgate's time and say we should have gone further (i.e; in order to have satisfied your minimum requirements he should've reached a World Cup final and won the Euros?) is just deranged. If we'd won that shootout with Italy, presumably you'd still be annoyed about Southgate's approach to the game and the fact we weren't able to win it in normal time? 

[TM]

22 minutes ago, ceefax the cat said:

It is absolutely crazy to me that anyone can consider getting to within a couple of penalties of winning a tournament with England (in between World Cup semi and quarter finals) as being a failure, home advantage or not. There are few teams in history who were so obviously superior that they can reasonably have considered not winning a tournament to be beneath them - 50's Hungary, Pelé's Brazil, Cruyff's Netherlands, Spain 2010.

I can understand not being happy about the direction of the team as that's what most football fans will do, if things aren't going the way we want, we'll whinge about it.  England fans aren't exempt from this, I whinge about my club side all the time

but if England go on and win the trophy, how many will care about the Denmark or Slovenia games? do you think Argentina fans think about the Saudi 2-1 defeat in 2022 or the Spain fans when they lost 1-0 to Switzerland in the 2010 World Cup? nope, they won the World Cup I guess the post-mortem can take place IF England were to drop out of this competition but with the path they have ahead of them with France not in it, they've got a great chance to make the final and that's with the greatest respect to the teams left in that path

Edited June 26 by TM

[ceefax the cat]

I can't quite be arsed to go through it, but it would be interesting to compile a list of tournament wins and final appearances Baptista_8 would be disappointed with or consider the bare minimum, because the team in question put in some mediocre performances, faced middling opposition on the way there, or were favourites to begin with. So Italy were very luck to beat Australia in 2006, Ukraine in the quarters, then won the final on pens after a fairly uninspiring game which probably wouldn't have satisfied his requirements.

Actually, that semi with Germany in 2006 is probably a good example of the way one game can really alter perception of these tournaments. Euro 96 is considered glorious basically because we trounced Holland and gave Germany a good game - we made a right meal of Switzerland, Scotland and Spain. Italia 90 we were lucky to get anywhere at all - that boils down to another close game with Germany. Baptista would have been beside himself in the early stages of both.

Don't want to pick on you, Baptista, sorry. I just get frustrated with some of the England-bashing and you happened to be here!

Edited June 26 by ceefax the cat

[TM]

England's group stage in 1990 and struggling to beat Belgium and Cameroon before an actual good performance against Germany in the SF

[GunmaN1905]

If we're talking about the level of play England has sown, for me 2004 is easily the best tournament.

Good game against France with a stoppage time meltdown.
Dismantled both Switzerland and Croatia with ease.

Great game against Portugal. If Rooney was healthy, would've probably won.
Or if you weren't blatantly robbed.

In that group stage game against Croatia, I remember it being so ridiculously one-sided, could've put 7 past us and it wouldn't have been too many.
Never seen England play so well before or after that tournament.

It went into turgindness in 2006 and then the downfall started.

[TalkSport]

33 minutes ago, TM said:

I can understand not being happy about the direction of the team as that's what most football fans will do, if things aren't going the way we want, we'll whinge about it.  England fans aren't exempt from this, I whinge about my club side all the time

but if England go on and win the trophy, how many will care about the Denmark or Slovenia games? do you think Argentina fans think about the Saudi 2-1 defeat in 2022 or the Spain fans when they lost 1-0 to Switzerland in the 2010 World Cup? nope, they won the World Cup I guess the post-mortem can take place IF England were to drop out of this competition but with the path they have ahead of them with France not in it, they've got a great chance to make the final and that's with the greatest respect to the teams left in that path

Bit different, but the teams don’t care about those games because 1) Argentina were on a strong run before then, won a tournament, and was clear just a blip that the manager changed quickly. 2) Spain won a tournament before, and having watched Barcelona loads up to 2010, those rare defeats do happen. Both fundamentally had cores that you could back.

We just don’t have that form. I’ve said it for ages, issues that have been there in 2018-20, still there now, as it’s Gareth default.

Yea if we win tournament no-one will care about the games, I’d take a Greece style tournament all day as the last game is what people will remember, but we just know based on certain games over time, that won’t happen. We’d hope come Euros it would change, but it hasn’t. 

[Baptista_8]

1 hour ago, ceefax the cat said:

It is absolutely crazy to me that anyone can consider getting to within a couple of penalties of winning a tournament with England (in between World Cup semi and quarter finals) as being a failure, home advantage or not. There are few teams in history who were so obviously superior that they can reasonably have considered not winning a tournament to be beneath them - 50's Hungary, Pelé's Brazil, Cruyff's Netherlands, Spain 2010... not a lot else, and to put any of Southgate's England squads in that category would obviously be absolutely mental. Each time, we've been in the mix of teams who, with a bit of luck, and if it happens to click, could realistically reach the final, but by no means clear favourites. Other teams have Fodens, Bellinghams and Kanes and will win nothing.

I have issues with the way England approach games and the boxy, sideways style of play they seem to lapse into when the pressure is on, but that problem is much older than Southgate, and semis / final / quarters is better than anyone else has done. The only team in this tournament that hasn't really struggled at all so far is Spain and almost never does a team play well all the way through and win it.

I'm keen to move onto the next chapter after this, and I hope whoever comes in finds a way of unleashing the potential of Foden, Bellingham, Palmer etc, but to look back at Southgate's time and say we should have gone further (i.e; in order to have satisfied your minimum requirements he should've reached a World Cup final and won the Euros?) is just deranged. If we'd won that shootout with Italy, presumably you'd still be annoyed about Southgate's approach to the game and the fact we weren't able to win it in normal time? 

Yeah, he should have had the balls to make changes to see that game out and stay on the front foot. I'm a broken record as everyone knows but borderline world class Grealish (in 2021) was criminally underused in that tournament.

[Baptista_8]

I mean it can't really be exposed much more as to how clueless Southgate is.