Southgate: Episode IV - A New Hope

[Bootador]

BIG NEWS NON-ANNOUNCEMENT

 

[Haguey]

Massive early test of Starmer's leadership imo, don't bottle it Keir (or England)

[PaulHartman71]

I think if we do win the Euros you have to keep him on as manager for the World Cup unless we can get Pip in. 

There’s no obvious candidate out there that has the experience or tactical ability to do significantly better than Southgate has done really IMO. If we lose then absolutely think it’s best for everyone that he goes. 

Potter would be my choice out of what’s realistically available but if we do win I think it’s risky given the squad all buy into Southgate and like him. Probably the best chance we’d have at a World Cup so think it would be crazy not to have one last run at it. 

[InigoPatinkin]

If we win the Euros Southgate will be off into the sunset quicker than you can blink and I wouldn't blame him in the slightest. 

[Haguey]

Unless we somehow tempt Pep or Klopp or someone of that level, the English names in the PL/ex-PL are Potter, Howe, Cooper, Dyche, Martin and O'Neil. 5 of those are in jobs and Potter would be more of the same sideways non penetrating stuff people are criticising Southgate for. No idea who the next manager will be tbh.

[WillHoward42]

10 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

There’s no obvious candidate out there that has the experience or tactical ability

[enigmatic]

1 minute ago, Haguey said:

Unless we somehow tempt Pep or Klopp or someone of that level, the English names in the PL/ex-PL are Potter, Howe, Cooper, Dyche, Martin and O'Neil. 5 of those are in jobs and Potter would be more of the same sideways non penetrating stuff people are criticising Southgate for. No idea who the next manager will be tbh.

Think Howe is more likely to jump at the chance than he would have been last season, and for everybody else it's an obvious step up. The other names don't exactly scream well this guy is ideally suited to the job do they

Klopp taking the England job as a break to de-stress would be properly mad  

[Heartwork]

13 minutes ago, Haguey said:

Massive early test of Starmer's leadership imo, don't bottle it Keir (or England)

Winning the Euros just over a week after winning the election would be the final proof Keir has some sort of deal with Satan.

[Haguey]

Let's hope Kieran McKenna carries on being fantastic and also forgets he was raised and represented Northern Ireland.

[Heartwork]

6 minutes ago, Haguey said:

Unless we somehow tempt Pep or Klopp or someone of that level, the English names in the PL/ex-PL are Potter, Howe, Cooper, Dyche, Martin and O'Neil. 5 of those are in jobs and Potter would be more of the same sideways non penetrating stuff people are criticising Southgate for. No idea who the next manager will be tbh.

Carsley maybe? Won the U21 Euros last year, turned down the Ireland job. Maybe he's being lined up as Southgate's successor.

[EdBed]

8 minutes ago, Haguey said:

Unless we somehow tempt Pep or Klopp or someone of that level, the English names in the PL/ex-PL are Potter, Howe, Cooper, Dyche, Martin and O'Neil. 5 of those are in jobs and Potter would be more of the same sideways non penetrating stuff people are criticising Southgate for. No idea who the next manager will be tbh.

I might put a fiver on Emma Hayes.

[Haguey]

1 minute ago, Heartwork said:

Carsley maybe? Won the U21 Euros last year, turned down the Ireland job. Maybe he's being lined up as Southgate's successor.

Yeah would be happy with Carsley, carry on the good vibes with someone who knows the players and setup very well. Doesn't always work in international football mind you...

[WillHoward42]

8 minutes ago, EdBed said:

I might put a fiver on Emma Hayes.

Just taken over USA Women's team?

[Heartwork]

5 minutes ago, Haguey said:

Yeah would be happy with Carsley, carry on the good vibes with someone who knows the players and setup very well. Doesn't always work in international football mind you...

82% win record in his 3 years with the U21s isn't to be discounted though

[EdBed]

4 minutes ago, WillHoward42 said:

Just taken over USA Women's team?

I reckon she would switch after winning the Olympics with them.

Hard to imagine she would not jump at the chance.

[Haguey]

3 minutes ago, Heartwork said:

82% win record in his 3 years with the U21s isn't to be discounted though

Hey, it's worked for Spain's manager who no one still knows the name of

[Heartwork]

4 minutes ago, Haguey said:

Hey, it's worked for Spain's manager who no one still knows the name of

Could argue it worked with Southgate in terms of results. Less so with performance but of he lifts the trophy nobody in England will complain.

[darren1983]

England already stole Grealish and Rice from Ireland and now you want Carsley as well?  

[darren1983]

1 hour ago, hairwad said:

Didn't realise Watkins is 28

He's actually older than Toney. Only by like 6 months or so but still 

[Heartwork]

1 minute ago, darren1983 said:

England already stole Grealish and Rice from Ireland and now you want Carsley as well?  

He turned them down already, conscience is clear.

[Rob1981]

36 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

the squad all buy into Southgate and like him. Probably the best chance we’d have at a World Cup so think it would be crazy not to have one last run at it. 

Not sure what makes you think he would want to stay

If we lose another final he won't have convinced any of his critics that he is the right man to get over that last hurdle.

And if we win the final he will probably quit while he's ahead. 

Sure, if we are somehow favourites for the WC there's maybe a 10% chance that he does the elusive Euros-WC double.  But there's a 90% chance that his reputation goes the other way.  And as soon as we draw with Greece, people go back to saying that he's a fraud and that we "only" won the Euros because of last minute goals or penalties, or because we had an easy run to the final.

I mean, I would love him to stay because I'm not sure I would give any other manager any better chance of winning the next one for us.  But if I was one of his mates, I would definitely be telling him to pack it in.  Eight years is a long time.

[darren1983]

1 minute ago, Heartwork said:

He turned them down already, conscience is clear.

40 Ireland caps disagree about the clear conscience  

[Haguey]

If the next manager doesn't immediately easily win the World Cup while playing incredible football Rob and I will be all over him

[TalkSport]

57 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Potter would be my choice out of what’s realistically available but if we do win I think it’s risky given the squad all buy into Southgate and like him. 

It didn't sound like the squad did at the start of this tournament, but winning games and getting into the final pushes that to one side.

Win or lose, he needs to step down. Team needs a new direction for the next 2 cycles leading up to the home Euros, and best go with someone with new ideas.

[m_fenton]

3 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Not sure what makes you think he would want to stay

If we lose another final he won't have convinced any of his critics that he is the right man to get over that last hurdle.

And if we win the final he will probably quit while he's ahead. 

Sure, if we are somehow favourites for the WC there's maybe a 10% chance that he does the elusive Euros-WC double.  But there's a 90% chance that his reputation goes the other way.  And as soon as we draw with Greece, people go back to saying that he's a fraud and that we "only" won the Euros because of last minute goals or penalties, or because we had an easy run to the final.

I mean, I would love him to stay because I'm not sure I would give any other manager any better chance of winning the next one for us.  But if I was one of his mates, I would definitely be telling him to pack it in.  Eight years is a long time.

Finishing top of a group of Mexico, Brazil and France, Southgate's England go on to beat Argentina, Spain, Germany and France (again) in the knockouts to lift the trophy. His critics, however, are quick to point out that some of the matches were a bit dull.

[Rob1981]

Just now, Haguey said:

If the next manager doesn't immediately easily win the World Cup while playing incredible football Rob and I will be all over him

This is what I hope will happen:

• Gareth resigns exactly at the point that people finally wake up and realise he's brilliant
• We go out and get Poch or someone for the next campaign
• Gareth is headhunted by some other country who sees that his skillset is ideally suited to international management
• WC2026 we are eliminated by Gareth's Tunisia side in the R32.  Even though we have got our superior tactician in to replace him

THEN I will be smug.  ****ing hell, you lot would never hear the end of it.

[TalkSport]

Next World Cup will be hard regardless who is manager, need some luck in the draw because the hot temperatures never do us any good.

Having an idea and philosophy heading to Euro28 will be what that's used for. Going to have a new wave of kids ready to play attacking football in these next 2 years.

[Heartwork]

7 minutes ago, darren1983 said:

40 Ireland caps disagree about the clear conscience  

It's as close as the English can get to a clear conscience regarding Ireland.

[Haguey]

1 minute ago, Rob1981 said:

This is what I hope will happen:

• Gareth resigns exactly at the point that people finally wake up and realise he's brilliant
• We go out and get Poch or someone for the next campaign
• Gareth is headhunted by some other country who sees that his skillset is ideally suited to international management
• WC2026 we are eliminated by Gareth's Tunisia side in the R32.  Even though we have got our superior tactician in to replace him

THEN I will be smug.  ****ing hell, you lot would never hear the end of it.

Remember when we got Capello in because he was an excellent tactician and manager generally, to coach our golden generation. Then they were all terrible because everyone was miserable and bored and hated each other.

[Rob1981]

Just now, Haguey said:

Remember when we got Capello in because he was an excellent tactician and manager generally, to coach our golden generation. Then they were all terrible because everyone was miserable and bored and hated each other.

I think I might have mentioned that once or twice

It's almost like being a brilliant tactician is only a relatively small part of the job.

[Heartwork]

Just now, Haguey said:

Remember when we got Capello in because he was an excellent tactician and manager generally, to coach our golden generation. Then they were all terrible because everyone was miserable and bored and hated each other.

So the new boss has to make sure the captain doesn't sleep with a teammate's partner?

[PaulHartman71]

10 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Not sure what makes you think he would want to stay

If we lose another final he won't have convinced any of his critics that he is the right man to get over that last hurdle.

And if we win the final he will probably quit while he's ahead. 

Sure, if we are somehow favourites for the WC there's maybe a 10% chance that he does the elusive Euros-WC double.  But there's a 90% chance that his reputation goes the other way.  And as soon as we draw with Greece, people go back to saying that he's a fraud and that we "only" won the Euros because of last minute goals or penalties, or because we had an easy run to the final.

I mean, I would love him to stay because I'm not sure I would give any other manager any better chance of winning the next one for us.  But if I was one of his mates, I would definitely be telling him to pack it in.  Eight years is a long time.

I think if we win it the players/media/country generally will be willing him to stay on for the World Cup. I really don’t think he’d step down if we do win. 

[Haguey]

2 minutes ago, Heartwork said:

So the new boss has to make sure the captain doesn't sleep with a teammate's partner?

Or do any racisms

[Heartwork]

2 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

I think if we win it the players/media/country generally will be willing him to stay on for the World Cup. I really don’t think he’d step down if we do win. 

True but then that runs the risk of diminishing returns like we suffered towards the end of the Alf Ramsey era, which as we all know ended with failure to qualify for the 1974 World Cup.

[PaulHartman71]

I don’t think Carsley has any chance of the job. It’s one thing having an ex Ireland international be the U21 boss but I just don’t see him managing England personally.

It doesn’t help he’s not really a name at all either. I think if we didn’t start well the vibes would be awful the whole time. 

[The_jagster]

8 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

This is what I hope will happen:

• Gareth resigns exactly at the point that people finally wake up and realise he's brilliant
• We go out and get Poch or someone for the next campaign
• Gareth is headhunted by some other country who sees that his skillset is ideally suited to international management
• WC2026 we are eliminated by Gareth's Tunisia side in the R32.  Even though we have got our superior tactician in to replace him

THEN I will be smug.  ****ing hell, you lot would never hear the end of it.

I will stick my neck out and say Southgate will be absolutely terrible in every subsequent management job he takes, club or country

[Haguey]

Just now, PaulHartman71 said:

It doesn’t help he’s not really a name at all either. I think if we didn’t start well the vibes would be awful the whole time. 

This is why we kept failing before Southgate. Look at who is in charge of other national teams, especially the successful ones. If someone is the best for the job I don't care how high profile they are. Just look at the Spain manager. Or even Jesse Marsch with Canada

[Heartwork]

Just now, PaulHartman71 said:

I don’t think Carsley has any chance of the job. It’s one thing having an ex Ireland international be the U21 boss but I just don’t see him managing England personally.

It doesn’t help he’s not really a name at all either. I think if we didn’t start well the vibes would be awful the whole time. 

He does know the players and system though. England didn't concede at all during their u21 win last year as an added bonus. I'd consider him to be the FA's safe bet, even though he's a Brummie.

[Rob1981]

59 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

I think if we win it the players/media/country generally will be willing him to stay on for the World Cup.

Haha, yes.  I'm sure the country would.  But it might be too little too late.  A lot of those same people wanted him tarred and feathered a fortnight ago because we had the audacity to draw a group game.  And a lot of those same people will be screaming again in the autumn if we drop points in the Nations League.

I think a lot of his enthusiasm has gone.

Plus it isn't the same job as the players get older, even if the players are still the same.  You come back to the stuff around man management.  He has been brilliant in terms of building the culture and changing what the whole setup feels like.  But another two years down the line, you aren't managing a crop of young players that are finding their feet at international level and playing at their first couple of tournaments.  You are managing elite players at the peak of their careers.  Players that come with attitude and egos and a heavier weight of expectation because of everything they have done at club level.  You definitely saw this with Eriksson.  The mood in 2006 was a lot more negative than in 2002 and 2004... even though we reached the same stage of the tournament and a lot of the players were the same.

I just hope we don't see the return of the 'bad old days' of club rivalries and cliques as the players move through their careers. 

I think this is a danger regardless of who is in charge to be honest.

Edited July 11 by Rob1981

[The_jagster]

The other thing is that Southgate definitely hasn't mastered managing the favourites tag, he wants to be the plucky team doing better than expectations.

Hence the prickly press conferences and setting up strawmen of people who expect England to batter every other team in the world.

[WillHoward42]

24 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

This is what I hope will happen:

• Gareth resigns exactly at the point that people finally wake up and realise he's brilliant
• We go out and get Poch or someone for the next campaign
• Gareth is headhunted by some other country who sees that his skillset is ideally suited to international management
• WC2026 we are eliminated by Gareth's Tunisia side in the R32.  Even though we have got our superior tactician in to replace him

THEN I will be smug.  ****ing hell, you lot would never hear the end of it.

Let us know when you've woken up 

[davehanson]

For me the obvious choice is Klopp if England could persuade him. I know he wants a break from football, but England only have the 6 nations leagues games this year, then world cup qualifying doesn't begin until March 2025 - i think. Even if they were to appoint an interim manager for the nations league games. 

Klopp knows the players, everyone that has every played for him genuinely seems to like him and he has that mindset to get the very best out of his players.

[iamjerome]

 

On 26/06/2024 at 11:34, iamjerome said:

2018 was a miracle our team wasn't even good and people forget our expectations were non existent. we were coming off embarrassing ourselves in 2014 and 2016 ffs but people want to bring up oh we didn't beat a good team - so what? our last tournament we went out to iceland the last wc we ended bottom of the group without a single win it was a run to be enjoyed and it was great to be able to see players enjoy themselves for england again. so obviously he deserved at least another tournament after that.

2020 we got to a final with home advantage which is better than we did in 1996. we got to a final which is better than we've done since 1966 even and we lost on pens. it would have been absolutely ludicrous to sack him after that.

2022 we were actually playing pretty well. we held our own against the world champions and were unlucky to go out. i think maybe he could have stepped away after this but the FA begged him to stay and i don't think it's insane he got another tournament because it seemed like it was just a tournament too early for some of our players and we would be really coming into our strength in 2024 so can he win it with more players in their actual prime.

2024 however i have no caveats or justifications. we should be on fire and with how the draw has played out - we should be making the final. anything short is a terrible underperformance now.  southgate needs to make some hard decisions and drop one of foden or bellingham - maybe even both to get gordon in on the left for sure and maybe palmer as well. keep mainoo in the middle too. actually have a balanced team instead of this insane system where we completely sabotage ourselves ignoring the entire left flank.

 

well gareth didn't listen to me said a big **** you even and kept this insane sacrificing of the left flank and he's got us to the final.

i was wrong to question him. what a man.

putting toney in instead of watkins got us the winner. then all the subs for the penalties were perfect. and then bringing in watkins instead of toney vs netherlands.

all perfect.

of course we could have played better for all the games besides last game but i suppose tournament football just doesn't work like that.

and of course he could have been more ruthless and dropped one of kane, bellingham or foden to bring in gordon or watkins but to be honest i don't think there's a manager in the world who doesn't give players of their quality all the time they need to play into form.

foden has done that now. bellingham has had his moments. even kane has scored 3.

i hope they go one more level up on sunday and combine together to deliver on gareth's faith and belief in them.

but i'll tell you what - if they don't, i now have faith that gareth will not only take one or more of them off and also bring in the right person from our very decent bench.

[skybluedave]

I think next manager is Potter. He's turned down club sides. I think he's waiting to see what happens with Southgate after this tournament before committing to a club

[Bootador]

46 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

This is what I hope will happen:

• Gareth resigns exactly at the point that people finally wake up and realise he's brilliant
• We go out and get Poch or someone for the next campaign
• Gareth is headhunted by some other country who sees that his skillset is ideally suited to international management
• WC2026 we are eliminated by Gareth's Tunisia side in the R32.  Even though we have got our superior tactician in to replace him

THEN I will be smug.  ****ing hell, you lot would never hear the end of it.

As if Gareth would draw England in the Round of 32 

Nah, Canada, Western Samoa and a tricky tie against Sudan before the Semis methinks.

[WillHoward42]

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1280293532932109?fs=e&s=TIeQ9V

[Rob1981]

46 minutes ago, The_jagster said:

The other thing is that Southgate definitely hasn't mastered managing the favourites tag,

But it definitely doesn't help that most fans don't really understand what favourites means.

In the context of an international tournament... favourites doesn't mean "likely to win".

It means England maybe have a 15% chance of winning, whereas France/Germany/Spain/Italy/Brazil/Argentina each only have a 10%-12% chance of winning.

So bascially, if you run the tournament 100 times... 85 times somebody else is still going to win.  But as soon as you say "favourites" the expectation goes through the roof, even though your likelihood of actually winning is only very slightly higher.

[themadsheep2001]

Whether we win it or not, i do think its probably time for a clean break, unless he is ready to reinvent what he does a fair bit

[skybluedave]

Wonder what pose of Gareth's we'll use for his statue outside Wembley?

[titchuk]

1 hour ago, Rob1981 said:

This is what I hope will happen:

• Gareth resigns exactly at the point that people finally wake up and realise he's brilliant
• We go out and get Poch or someone for the next campaign
• Gareth is headhunted by some other country who sees that his skillset is ideally suited to international management
• WC2026 we are eliminated by Gareth's Tunisia side in the R32.  Even though we have got our superior tactician in to replace him

THEN I will be smug.  ****ing hell, you lot would never hear the end of it.

Might be tricky to combine managing Tunisia with his job in the House of Lords.