Game 7: Serbia vs England from the Arena AufSchalke LIVE on BBC1 8pm

[Baptista_8]

24 minutes ago, PaulHartman71 said:

Mad thing is Grealish probably looks better than Foden on the left in Southgate's system. 

Just a bit.

[PaulHartman71]

I’d be tempted to go Rice - Wharton and then Bellingham in midfield for the next game. 

[noikeee]

Would never happen for a variety of reasons, such as the need to keep Saka who is a genuine top player on his natural position too (and he created the goal), and the general lack of balls of Gareth Southgate. But if you want to play both Foden and Bellingham in their natural positions at AMC? Narrow 3-4-2-1 with Saka as LWB.

Pickford

CBs Guehi Stones and Walker

WBs Saka and TAA

DMs Rice and Gallagher

AMs Foden and Bellingham 

Kane

[noikeee]

Meanwhile apparently Dusan Tadic has said to Serbian media (I'm paraphrasing a Portuguese website), "I should've started because I am the best player" 

Hopefully this is a sign of their dressing room imploding, I didn't gain any sympathy for them at all during this match, bunch of thugs kicking the English players all match long.

Edited June 17 by noikeee

[Lucas]

Game was really dull, especially second half where I was falling asleep at the end  

Honestly can see the way we were set up Jude is probably going to be our most likely outlet for goals and our probable top scorer for the tournament. Kane for whatever reason under Southgate either anonymous or just too deep. 

Would drop Saka for the next game and play Palmer instead. Rotate out TAA for Wharton or Mainoo. 

Not really convinced at Trippier at LB but then I'd probably say the same if it were any of our other options.

[mrmeee17]

Would be mad to drop (or put at LB) Saka.  Our biggest offensive threats are Bellingham and Saka.

(And Kane, usually.)

[Constantine]

6 hours ago, noikeee said:

Meanwhile apparently Dusan Tadic has said to Serbian media (I'm paraphrasing a Portuguese website), "I should've started because I am the best player" 

Hopefully this is a sign of their dressing room imploding, I didn't gain any sympathy for them at all during this match, bunch of thugs kicking the English players all match long.

Oi, oi, they aren't thugs, they just played with way too much pashun. If it were English players, they would've been lauded for their approach. Men's game, stuff like that...

As for Tadic... Yeah, that's just **** as usual with us. Every time we qualify, someone **** **** up. Last time it was Vlahovic screwing other people' wives, the one before it was manager calling up his own son instead of any other decent player. Our squad just can't keep their dirty laundry for themselves and just shut up and keep calm for the duration of the tournament.

Edited June 17 by Constantine

[TalkSport]

9 hours ago, Baptista_8 said:

Cesc saying Foden not showing enough aggression/wanting responsibility, spot on.

I disagree with that though, as he was constantly showing for the ball. It’s not his fault if it’s not played to him. Christ, he was even dropping back to edge of Pickford box to get the ball to stop it going long ffs  

[oche balboa]

We started well but once we got the goal we just sat back and allowed Serbia to get back into the game, Thankfully they had 1-2 chances and didn't hurt us too much, But we will take the 1-0 win and on to the next game

 

Saka started well and faded, Foden doesn't seem to play well for England, Kane was quiet. Bellingham was excellent and Rice did ok. I thought Gallagher and Bowen were lively when they came on 

[Bigwig]

We look imbalanced, particularly down the left.

I thought Trippier had a good game defensively but offers nothing going forward on the left. Few times overlapped but it was just pointless other than taking someone with him.

We discussed Foden not long ago and people seemed to agree we would be better with someone more comfortable there so it’s surprising to see so many people saying we have to fit him in there. This is his third tournament now and we’re still waiting for him to click. Hopefully happens soon.  

[TalkSport]

Said before game, usually he’s asked to stay wide by Southagte, which leads to him looking poor as he’s not an out and out winger. But last night, was first time where he was properly allowed to do his Man City thing. Drift inside, come all over to look for the ball.

Was times in first half him and Bellingham were in same space for pass, but that’s expected as it wouldn’t have been many training sessions, but if that’s the main XI Southgate has in mind, I’d expect those things to improve.

From word go, he was getting into box, even the Bellingham goal was from him making near post run that pulled out the central CB and the space. Too often, we’ve seen the LW stay out wide and not threaten. Popping off quick one twos with Saka and Bellingham on the right. Had a few poor passes, but who didn’t? 

Things to improve would be if he’s coming inside, Bellingham to have awareness to move left as that would then be the space. To build from the back when under pressure and find Foden when he’s dropping to show for it, which he did often but Pickford was going long.

Main concern for me overall last night was more on the defence, and Stones looking rusty (which is expected). Got three easy group games to get the cobwebs off so to speak, and ideally need Shaw to play at least 1 1/3 game too by end of group, so both have some base before facing actual attackers with ability. 

[Rob1981]

Think people are writing off Luke Shaw a bit too quickly. We are massive favourites to win the group now, even more than we were before the games yesterday. That means a third place team in the R16, probably “only” an Austria or a Poland or a Romania or someone.

So butting up against a top side shouldn’t happen until the QFs on 5-6 July at the earliest. That’s another three weeks away. And Shaw is already back in full training; if he gets some minutes off the bench between now and then, I don’t see much of an issue with him being back and being ready.

In the meantime, we need to pick a team to navigate the games in front of us. We don't have to look like the best team in the tournament every time we go out on the pitch.

[skybluedave]

Why is Pearcey called Talk Sport? 

[Baptista_8]

1 minute ago, skybluedave said:

Why is Pearcey called Talk Sport? 

I thought it was some new user

[Constantine]

Unless Pearcey asked for it... If he didn't... I don't know, it seems like a dickish thing to do. Some mods abusing their power, thinking they're funny...

[Barry Cartman]

Looked great first 15 minutes, then just became lacklustre and didn't look like putting any sort of press or attack together 

I don't know what the answer is with Foden other than playing Gordon instead, you can see he wants to play in pockets in between players, but no one is going to give him the ball in those areas, all he did throughout the game was throw his arms in the air and pull his socks up 

I don't think Trent worked, gave the ball away a few times, got caught and he didn't really offer anything that warrants him being selected 

Both centre backs were great 

[TalkSport]

I don’t mind it  All fun and games.

[Lucas]

5 minutes ago, Constantine said:

Unless Pearcey asked for it... If he didn't... I don't know, it seems like a dickish thing to do. Some mods abusing their power, thinking they're funny...

Usually people take things in the good humour that's intended. 

These things are rarely permanent, and it's just a bit of fun, really. Like @Darren Moores Mum  & @Net Spend Tony

[Rob1981]

5 minutes ago, Barry Cartman said:

I don't know what the answer is with Foden other than playing Gordon instead, you can see he wants to play in pockets in between players, but no one is going to give him the ball in those areas, all he did throughout the game was throw his arms in the air and pull his socks up 

I don't think Trent worked, gave the ball away a few times, got caught and he didn't really offer anything that warrants him being selected 

Both centre backs were great 

This might be the first time we've ever agreed with each other

[Constantine]

5 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Usually people take things in the good humour that's intended. 

These things are rarely permanent, and it's just a bit of fun, really. Like @Darren Moores Mum  & @Net Spend Tony

If they don't mind, it's fine. I had some bad experiences at one Discord server, mods were screwing with people and seeing it here, it just rubbed me the wrong way. Vietnam flashbacks kind of stuff  

[arenaross]

39 minutes ago, Rob1981 said:

Think people are writing off Luke Shaw a bit too quickly. We are massive favourites to win the group now, even more than we were before the games yesterday. That means a third place team in the R16, probably “only” an Austria or a Poland or a Romania or someone.

So butting up against a top side shouldn’t happen until the QFs on 5-6 July at the earliest. That’s another three weeks away. And Shaw is already back in full training; if he gets some minutes off the bench between now and then, I don’t see much of an issue with him being back and being ready.

In the meantime, we need to pick a team to navigate the games in front of us. We don't have to look like the best team in the tournament every time we go out on the pitch.

It's been a very long time since we've looked the best team in a tournament

 

[Haguey]

Obviously doesn't mean anything really but we've seen teams look super impressive in group stages and early knockouts before, and fail to make it deep into a tournament. Netherlands 2008 and Spain/Portugal at the last World Cup spring to mind.

Navigating a tournament is tough, even if you are very good and teams rarely win every single match within 90 mins.

Edited June 17 by Haguey

[ham_aka_stam]

14 minutes ago, Constantine said:

If they don't mind, it's fine. I had some bad experiences at one Discord server, mods were screwing with people and seeing it here, it just rubbed me the wrong way. Vietnam flashbacks kind of stuff  

Nothing like this happens from an individual mod btw, it's discussed, and if anyone asked genuinely for something to be changed back it would be.

Aim is banter, not bullying, but happy to hear if we ever miss the mark.

 

Not followed the thread but agree with a lot that's been said here.  However, I think Kane being "anonymous" was a tactical decision as he said in his interview, he was told to occupy the defence and try to ignore his instincts to drop.  However I think second half when they went to man marking he should have started dropping more.

I also think Bellingham is taking things on a bit too much on his own, Foden is less physical, but just as capable on the ball and when there's three players on Jude I'd like to see him offload to Foden.

Trent makes more sense if we're playing more runs in behind, but other than the three or four times we freed Saka down the right, I don't think he was worth the sacrifices in his game, and one of the two younger lads would have been better, but I can also appreciate easing them into their first tournaments.

Biggest balance issue is Trippier I think, and it's less his fault than the lack of availability of Shaw really, a proper left sided full back would have made Foden's job a lot easier.

Also think the referee let them get away with far too much, Bellingham was being targetted early on and the cards didn't come early enough (or enough of them) to deter them from carrying on.

Professional performance I think, just needed a bit more of the good stuff and a bit more balance down the left. Pleased it didn't seem to take too much out of anyone's tank, we weren't fighting for the win, fatigue will be really important this tournament.

[Barry Cartman]

Bellingham was a bit too much i'm going to do it all on my own at times, like he'd prefer to win personal duals then lay off a simple ball 

[Bigwig]

Do the groups go on head—to-head or GD?

Think if we beat Denmark we’ve pretty much won the group and can use the last game to give a bit game time to those who need it. 

[ham_aka_stam]

I get it from the sense of showing them / future opponents that he's not going to be a pushover.  And it can be effective.  But repeating it is less effective than mixing it up.  If they expect you to go on a solo run and you play a simple 1-2, you'll tear them open.

Got four really clever technical players in the attacking third, needs to use them.

[ham_aka_stam]

1 minute ago, Bigwig said:

Do the groups go on head—to-head or GD?

Think if we beat Denmark we’ve pretty much won the group and can use the last game to give a bit game time to those who need it. 

Head to Head, goal difference decides any ties in the third place lottery. 

[Barry Cartman]

3 minutes ago, ham_aka_stam said:

I get it from the sense of showing them / future opponents that he's not going to be a pushover.  And it can be effective.  But repeating it is less effective than mixing it up.  If they expect you to go on a solo run and you play a simple 1-2, you'll tear them open.

Got four really clever technical players in the attacking third, needs to use them.

If I say it it just comes across as bitter, Foden was ****ing dire and even I wanted him off last night, but I don't think Bellingham helps him, Kane, Saka or Trent with the way he plays. If he wants to be running all over the pitch, he should be alongside Rice, instead all that happens like last night is he demands the ball off everyone moving into their space and Kane ends up isolated with no one in the pocket, which Kanes himself drops into and we have no runners behind. 

He won us the game, looked by far our best non defender, so its hard to criticise, but as an overall team I think we play better if he's more disciplined. 

[ReggaeBwoy]

I don't get why Southgate brought both Watkins and Toney, if he doesn't plan on using them in games like this. I get Kane has very good hold up play, but Watkins is a brilliant defensive forward. Chases down loose balls, links up well, is strong and would of been a good sub to come on. Gordon for Foden too who imo was poor yesterday. It is almost as Kane has to play 90 mins, regardless. I think this the reason why England will struggle to kill off games. 

[Constantine]

45 minutes ago, ham_aka_stam said:

Nothing like this happens from an individual mod btw, it's discussed, and if anyone asked genuinely for something to be changed back it would be.

Aim is banter, not bullying, but happy to hear if we ever miss the mark.

Thank you for further clarification. I'm aware you didn't need to do it but still did.

Now I feel kind of bad for even suspecting foul play... 😅

[ham_aka_stam]

Don't be daft, all good. 

Looking out for each other online is lovely to see tbh.

[arenaross]

17 minutes ago, ReggaeBwoy said:

I don't get why Southgate brought both Watkins and Toney, if he doesn't plan on using them in games like this. I get Kane has very good hold up play, but Watkins is a brilliant defensive forward. Chases down loose balls, links up well, is strong and would of been a good sub to come on. Gordon for Foden too who imo was poor yesterday. It is almost as Kane has to play 90 mins, regardless. I think this the reason why England will struggle to kill off games. 

I did think the last 20 minutes Watkins would have been a great option for this reason, but then I guess Kane sticks that header in and that's why you keep him on. Tough call to make. 

[ReggaeBwoy]

1 minute ago, arenaross said:

I did think the last 20 minutes Watkins would have been a great option for this reason, but then I guess Kane sticks that header in and that's why you keep him on. Tough call to make. 

I understand that but also Watkins scored a lot of headers from what I remember last season too so could have easily scored that too. Foden should have defo come off though first imo.

[InigoPatinkin]

I'm not sure Ten Hag walking around like Omar from the Wire after seeing off his rivals is entirely warranted, but it is pretty funny. 

[Coulthard's Jaw]

 

[ham_aka_stam]

Good news though: I was massively concerned about defence before the tournament, and whilst our left side still looks weak in attack, Trippier was solid at the back, and I was massively impressed by Guéhi too.

Complaining about the patterns of play in midfield being dominated by the best midfielder in the world is better than what I expected us to be moaning about.

[Astafjevs]

1 hour ago, Rob1981 said:

Think people are writing off Luke Shaw a bit too quickly. We are massive favourites to win the group now, even more than we were before the games yesterday. That means a third place team in the R16, probably “only” an Austria or a Poland or a Romania or someone.

So butting up against a top side shouldn’t happen until the QFs on 5-6 July at the earliest. That’s another three weeks away. And Shaw is already back in full training; if he gets some minutes off the bench between now and then, I don’t see much of an issue with him being back and being ready.

In the meantime, we need to pick a team to navigate the games in front of us. We don't have to look like the best team in the tournament every time we go out on the pitch.

Think you're underestimating the difficulty getting up to match speed after 4 months without a game. Nothing can replicate it.

If results go England's way they'll be guaranteed top after just two games, so he'll be able to start Shaw in the third group game. But beyond the 60 mins he'll get there, the rest is knockout football and you're asking for trouble messing around with unfit players, even with an easy draw

[TalkSport]

15 minutes ago, ReggaeBwoy said:

 Foden should have defo come off though first imo.

Think if Saka was fully fit to play the 90, he probably would've been off first. But Saka was coming back from injury and was getting into some duels 2nd half so best get him out of the firing line after he done his job.

4 minutes ago, Astafjevs said:

Think you're underestimating the difficulty getting up to match speed after 4 months without a game. Nothing can replicate it.

If results go England's way they'll be guaranteed top after just two games, so he'll be able to start Shaw in the third group game. But beyond the 60 mins he'll get there, the rest is knockout football and you're asking for trouble messing around with unfit players, even with an easy draw

It's also come that 3rd game, it could be walking football after 2 wins, playing a poor Slovenia side who likely won't offer no threat. Yea it's minutes under the belt, but not the intensity and battles to face. Be some miracle if both him and Stones make it through this tournament without a set back.

[Barry Cartman]

 

[m_fenton]

On the other hand (England's Euros opening matches):

Edited June 17 by m_fenton

[Rob1981]

If you include World Cups as well, Southgate has 100% win rate in opening games. 4/4 compared to 4/22 between 1954 and 2016  

[ham_aka_stam]

Southgate's legacy, if nothing else, will be reducing that awful fear and pressure you could feel on the players.

[darren1983]

I get people wanted changes but no side is taking off their biggest goal threat, and captain, while only leading 1-0. Not subbing Kane wasn't an issue. Would he have stayed on if it was 2-0? Probably as he probably needed another 90 mins under his belt. Watkins/Toney will get a chance at some stage but last night wasn't the time for it. 

[Barry Cartman]

Only reason to take Kane off was when he wasn't staying upfront and dropping too deep, there was a moment when Foden smashed a clearance long and we had no one near the middle of the pitch 

Edited June 17 by Barry Cartman

[Baptista_8]

3 hours ago, Lucas said:

Usually people take things in the good humour that's intended. 

These things are rarely permanent, and it's just a bit of fun, really. Like @Darren Moores Mum  & @Net Spend Tony

I guess three years of Jack Grealish's Mum can't be classed as permanent

[Baptista_8]

11 minutes ago, darren1983 said:

Watkins/Toney will get a chance at some stage but last night wasn't the time for it. 

Doubtful tbh unless it's the dead rubber final group game

[Rob1981]

2 hours ago, Bigwig said:

Do the groups go on head—to-head or GD?

This is the full list of separators:

1. Higher number of points obtained in the matches played between the teams in question;
2. Superior goal difference resulting from the matches played between the teams in question;
3. Higher number of goals scored in the matches played between the teams in question;
4. If, after having applied criteria 1 to 3, teams still have an equal ranking, criteria 1 to 3 are reapplied exclusively to the matches between the teams who are still level to determine their final rankings.  If this procedure does not lead to a decision, criteria 5 to 9 will apply;
5. Superior goal difference in all group matches;
6. Higher number of goals scored in all group matches;
7. If on the last round of the group stage, two teams who are facing each other are tied in points, goal difference and goals scored then they drew their match, their ranking is determined by a penalty shoot-out. (This criterion is not used if more than two teams had the same number of points.);
8. Lower disciplinary points total in all group matches (1 point for a single yellow card, 3 points for a red card regardless whether it was a direct red card or two yellow cards, 4 points for a yellow card followed by a direct red card);
9. Higher position in the European Qualifiers overall ranking, unless the comparison involves hosts Germany, in which case a drawing of lots will take place.

Hopefully we get some fun groups where more than two teams are tied on points... then they have to start working out the "mini-league" which commentators can never understand.

And they have quietly dropped "number of wins", which they introduced for Euro 2020 after Portugal got through their Euro 2016 group without winning a game.  Theoretically a "number of wins" rule could come into play where teams are tied on three points... it would allow a team that had won one and lost two to get through at the expense of a team that had drawn all three.

 

[ham_aka_stam]

14 minutes ago, Baptista_8 said:

I guess three years of Jack Grealish's Mum can't be classed as permanent

Lucky that's just a status change and not a name change...

[ReggaeBwoy]

32 minutes ago, darren1983 said:

I get people wanted changes but no side is taking off their biggest goal threat, and captain, while only leading 1-0. Not subbing Kane wasn't an issue. Would he have stayed on if it was 2-0? Probably as he probably needed another 90 mins under his belt. Watkins/Toney will get a chance at some stage but last night wasn't the time for it. 

I agree but I think if you are going to keep him on, bring players on who can provide counter attackers and provide to him. Kane is not the fastest and there was not much counter attacking threat. I think with the players on yesterday, Watkins could have provided a better counter attacking threat and defensive work too. But keeping Kane on, for me Foden should have come off for someone like Gordon. No counter attacking threat at all. 

[The_jagster]

I didn't think the performance was too bad until I listened to a respected Irish podcast where the vibe was "how does Southgate make these players play so badly?"

I'm torn because I would like to give Foden another chance and not assume this one game is all the evidence we need but you do need somebody to stretch the play wide left. Not really sure Gordon running into players trying to buy free kicks was really the answer yesterday tbqh. Serbia were so happy to just concede free kicks and let the clock run down while behind that I'm ok with what happened.

Surprised that Watkins would be preferable to Kane in the last 20, a few times Kane took down a clearance with good hold up play to pass it on or get fouled and with Watkins that ball doesn't stick and we invite pressure again.

Think the Kane header gets ruled out for a foul anyway if it goes in as well